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  • DimensionGamesDimensionGames Posts: 993PRO
    edited January 2013
    August 2011:

    September
    In-App Purchase
    Game Center Achievements
    Joints
    Chrome Store Publishing
    Lion Updates

    October
    Tables
    Android Publishing
    Facebook and Twitter Integration
    Snap-to-grid

    I would be more understanding if people were being completely unreasonable about release dates e.g. a features delayed a couple of months (with an explanation to why its been delayed). However these are quite long delays. (Although I do appreciate in the past some people have been idiots about updates/bugs, normally not pro users to be fair).

    I feel the same issues are here from a few years ago; the lack of communication leads to people being frustrated. Maybe if GameSalad gave us monthly updates to how each new feature was coming along e.g. first tests to being given to sous chefs. I understand that for some features you might want to keep it under the radar and this idea may not be possible but by adding a bit of communication I think people would be a lot more understanding.
  • ChakkuChakku Posts: 1,513Member
    edited January 2013


    Maybe if GameSalad gave us monthly updates to how each new feature was coming along

    @DimensionGames

    Now that's an idea! I'm very fond of a monthly GameSalad Newsletter! It sounds kind of like the "What's Cooking in the Kitchen" Thread, but I'm thinking more of a newsletter that includes...

    - features the Game of the Month
    -has a list of GameSalad games published (in the "Announce your game!" Section) in that month (I think many people will like this :) )
    -info on updates to the GameSalad Creator
    -current bugs that GameSalad is aware of
    -E-Mailed to everyone
    -Anything else they can come up with!

    This way everyone can get updates/more info in an organized way, and people won't be complaining that they're not being updated.

    This is a bit off-topic, but just thought I'd share.

    Chakku :)



  • @Chakku Yes, I think something like that would be a great way to communicate with users. Looking forward to seeing it implemented immediately otherwise I will harass @SaladStraightShooter until he gives in! :p
  • SocksSocks London, UK.Posts: 12,822Member
    Chakku said:

    you do seem a lot more experienced than someone who just joined.

    I used to work at GameSalad in Austin, I was in charge of secrets, plots and nefarious conspiracies against GameSalad users, my particular role was ensuring glitches and bugs made it safely through from one version to the next.

    : P
  • ChakkuChakku Posts: 1,513Member
    Socks said:

    Chakku said:

    you do seem a lot more experienced than someone who just joined.

    I used to work at GameSalad in Austin, I was in charge of secrets, plots and nefarious conspiracies against GameSalad users, my particular role was ensuring glitches and bugs made it safely through from one version to the next.

    : P
    @Socks

    I actually believed you for a second there :p
  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    @Socks is an old soul. :D

    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • ChakkuChakku Posts: 1,513Member
    edited January 2013

    @Socks is an old soul. :D

    @SaladStraightShooter
    @Socks

    Really?
    Did you actually use to work there?

    It is a bit suspicious how you were able to get exact accurate framerates (down to the decimal!) for the Animate behavior... ;)

    Chakku :)
  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    No, @Socks never really worked here - however, they have been around GS for a while and definitely know their stuff.

    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    @Chakku - we have a monthly GameSalad newsletter. O_O Although one didn't make it out for December, I've had one out every month prior for a few months. There will be another out this month, too.

    ... I think the problem is that many folks used a fake email when they signed up, so they never get it.

    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • SocksSocks London, UK.Posts: 12,822Member
    edited January 2013
    Chakku said:

    . . . a newsletter that includes...

    //

    current bugs that GameSalad is aware of

    //


    That would be useful, going back to the lack of communication issue: the bug reporting system seems to suffer much the same problem from what I can see (again - perceived or otherwise), you discover a bug, it halts progress of your project, you first research the bug yourself, run numerous tests, draw up a detailed explanation of the issue, include details of your test results and create example projects - send the whole lot to GameSalad (through the correct channels) . . . . and wait . . . and wait . . . and nothing . . . maybe they didn't receive it ? So you send it all off again . . . same thing . . . zero feedback . . . the next version update arrives and the bug us still there . . . the next version update arrives and the bug us still there . . . two years later the bug is still there.

    That's not to say anyone should expect GameSalad to pander to every inconsequential little anomaly they might chance across - or even expect the bug to be addressed (it may only effect a tiny number of situations and not reasonably warrant attention) - but even with fairly substantial issues the absolute dearth of feedback leaves you feeling like you are just dropping these bug reports into a black hole, basic psychology tells us that a lack of feedback leads to a loss of engagement, I stopped reporting bugs a long time ago as the forums are a much better place to find workarounds, why wait 18 months for a resolution that never comes when some bright spark on the forums can conjure up a clever workaround 2 hours after you posted your issue.

    Anyhow, must stop rambling . . . . but yes, just knowing that GameSalad were aware of the bug that had brought your project to a halt would be a great improvement - very good idea.
  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    @Socks - unfortunately there seems to be a disconnect in the bug reporting process. That's a shame that it's making folks avoid submitting bugs...but therein lies a huge part of the issue: No solid bug submissions, no QA investigation, no dev fixes. No smoke, no fire.

    What happens internally is this:

    Bug is reported by community member. If community member included all necessary information to reproduce, bug is verified by Tech CS and then provided to QA. (If not, a sometimes lengthy back-and-forth commences between CS and the bug submitter)
    Once received, QA verifies the bug - gauges severity and impact - and then the bug is added to the backlog. Bugs with higher severity are acknowledged first - crashes, etc. Bugs that are annoyances are shuffled further down the priority chain - particularly if they have a workaround. Bugs that cannot be reproduced are pushed back to ask for more information or the persons project. Bugs specific only to the person and unverifiable are closed.

    It's the same bug control process every dev company has that I've worked for. CS, QA and myself have been working to implement a "known bugs" list for community reference, though.

    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • ChakkuChakku Posts: 1,513Member
    edited January 2013

    @Chakku - we have a monthly GameSalad newsletter. O_O Although one didn't make it out for December, I've had one out every month prior for a few months. There will be another out this month, too.

    ... I think the problem is that many folks used a fake email when they signed up, so they never get it.

    @SaladStraightShooter

    X_X Oh, whoops! I saw those as more of general news updates, whenever something big happened, rather than an organized monthly newsletter.

    Any chance of including a list (or a link to a list) of all the games found within the "Announce your Game!" section, and upcoming bug fixes, to be included in the newsletter?

    CS, QA and myself have been working to implement a "known bugs" list for community reference, though.

    Now that sounds good, and maybe users can add to the thread by PMing you, similar to the useful links thread?

    Chakku

  • ElfizmElfizm Posts: 489Member
    R-E-S-P-E-C-T

    Find out what it means to me

    R-E-S-P-E-C-T

    Take care ..... TCB
  • ChakkuChakku Posts: 1,513Member
    edited January 2013
    Elfizm said:

    R-E-S-P-E-C-T

    Find out what it means to me

    R-E-S-P-E-C-T

    Take care ..... TCB

    @Elfizm

    What? Was I being disrespectful :-? ?

    Sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying.

    Chakku

  • ElfizmElfizm Posts: 489Member
    @Chakku

    Wasnt aimed at any individual so don't stress. Just a song lyric. People just need to show some respect towards GS because this convo has been repeated thousands of times.
  • SocksSocks London, UK.Posts: 12,822Member
    edited January 2013

    . . . therein lies a huge part of the issue: No solid bug submissions, no QA investigation, no dev fixes. No smoke, no fire.
    .

    Well, obviously it looks quite different from this end, it looks more like: Detailed and extensive bug submission, zero feedback, no dev fixes, rinse and repeat a few times, still zero feedback, try again a few more times, send in other bug submissions, same deal, zero feedback, abandon bug reporting system unaware of if your submissions even got read.

    Like I said no one should reasonably expect every little glitch to be ironed out within weeks - nor even to be ironed out at all (it simply might not warrant the time investment) - but the lack of communication leaves you feeling like you are writing the reports on a piece of paper, placing them, rolled up, into a bottle and tossing it into the sea.

    QA and myself have been working to implement a "known bugs" list for community reference, though.

    That would be really good, even if the bug effecting us is not on the list we'd at least know if it was time to jettison our project (or that part of the project effected) rather than waiting for a fix that may not be coming, a 'known bug' list would definitely be welcome and genuinely useful.
  • ChakkuChakku Posts: 1,513Member
    edited January 2013
    Socks said:


    QA and myself have been working to implement a "known bugs" list for community reference, though.

    Yes, that'd be really helpful, I totally agree. I'm actually trying to incorporate some cool stuff into my games, but even after analyzing my code carefully, I suspect a bug is what's stopping this.

    Like @Socks said, this will allow us to quickly decide whether or not to scrap plans for a feature you hope to implement, rather than waiting forever for a bugfix that they don't know of, so will not come.

    Chakku



  • greenrhynogreenrhyno Posts: 152Member, PRO
    I submitted a bug a month ago and have heard nothing. I then asked SSS about it when I saw another user bring it up in the forum and I bookmarked the conversation, still have heard nothing.

    I love GS but I do agree the communication on bugs and fixes is sometimes lacking.

    Definitely looking forward to the native engine and the other soon to arrive features!
  • beefy_clyrobeefy_clyro Posts: 5,390Member

    Every time they give a 'rough idea', if its not met there is an uproar! People ruin it for themselves i'm afraid!

    Or, uh, they're throwing out dates to shut people up? Not being realistic with their own development schedule, which points to internal issues? Blaming the people that paid for the product, and expect that product to be supported, makes as much sense as a screen door on a submarine.
    I dont know about you but I support the product because I believe in the product! I use the product because I've done research, I know its limitations, I know its current feature set and I know the games I have planned for now, I can execute all the way to the end using the product. If it doesn't support what you need and its imperative for a new project you shouldn't be using this product, but instead, one that fulfils your needs.

    Of course there are features I want, but I wont start building games that need those features until they are available! I've been championing Joints for what feels like my whole time on GS, i'm not going to see that until LUA drop engine is released and then it could still be some time off from that, it's annoying but I have other things I can do whilst I wait.

    GS are under no obligations to provide time scales, they release what information they can. We have a roadmap and a whats cooking to see what is planned. As with all plans, they are subject to delays or change!
  • DeadlySeriousMediaDeadlySeriousMedia ArizonaPosts: 838Member
    It sounds like there is a perception that a feature update is the only thing standing in the way of them and hit app. Otherwise theres no reason to be impatient. If GS kept giving updates they'd still get posts asking whats taking so long.

    Calm down, they are working on it. Itll happen when it happens, there are other options if you are that frustrated, but it's not even aweek into the year and this is already happening. I hope the next update comes with a community patience update! :)
  • SocksSocks London, UK.Posts: 12,822Member
    edited January 2013
    GS are under no obligations to provide time scales . . .
    I don't think anyone has said otherwise, customers are expressing their frustrations - you really wouldn't get too far as a business with an attitude of 'we are under no obligation to do [anything] . . ' (even if you are right).

    It sounds like there is a perception that a feature update is the only thing standing in the way of them and hit app.

    This seems now to be the standard apologetics used when anyone expresses frustration at having to wait months or years for issues to be ironed out.

    Problems with software exist, GameSalad is no different, regardless of how hard anyone tries to make it a personal issue or tries to reframe it as a character deficit of the user voicing their concerns.

    . . there are other options if you are that frustrated . . .

    And here we have the above argument's corollary . . . "If you don't like it here move to Saudi Arabia/Africa/North Korea" (delete as applicable). :) Lol. Anyone can make the "If you don't like it here . . " comment, it really doesn't add anything to the conversation.

    Marry your 'if you don't like it - walk . . ' approach with beefy_clyro's 'we ain't under any obligation to do anything . . . ' approach and you have the formula for a successful business. :)

    . . . Otherwise theres no reason to be impatient

    So, we've reduced any call for needed features down to either the "perception that a feature update is the only thing standing in the way of them and hit app" - or simply - "no reason".

    That's it ? There is nothing else ? No other valid reasons people would want to voice their views on the subject ? People are either deluding themselves about the success bug fixes and features will bring or they are simply complaining for no reason ?

    Anyhow, I think I've said my bit, this thread is going a little off topic and getting a little too personal for my liking so I'm off to help people spawn white boxes and make things bounce off other things (and get stars).


    : )
  • beefy_clyrobeefy_clyro Posts: 5,390Member
    @socks, of course they have to listen, its just the same old same old. Inpatient people want things now, you get it in every job! You can never please everyone but because a few people complain on a forum, they're not suddenly going to divulge stuff they haven't mentioned, its not like they will see these complaints and think 'oh yeh, we forgot to say when its going to be released'. If they were ready to tell us, we would know .. Thats all there is to it really. As for the rest about communication and bug fixes etc, this is a separate issue and should not be discussed in an updated roadmap thread.
  • DeadlySeriousMediaDeadlySeriousMedia ArizonaPosts: 838Member
    edited January 2013
    @socks No I get it. I'm waiting for features also, but the product I bought is as it was, if not better, than when I purchased. I just don't see the reason getting so frustrated over it. Silly argument is all.
  • ApprowApprow Posts: 703Member
    @SaladStraightShooter
    In the latest whats coocking in the kitchen post, you mentioned android engine improment.
    What can we expect? Is it sound and music improments and faster response? Also do you know if a game runs pretty good on a regular android device, it is also running good on the kindle fire?
    Because i googled for it and some people say the kindle fire stutters with sounds fx.
  • epicstagepicstag Posts: 132PRO
    So what exactly is cooking right now? What's the story with 0.2.0?
  • PixelMetalPixelMetal Posts: 283Member
    edited January 2013

    @Pixelmetal - and this is an example of why I'm careful about throwing out dates. ;) To be fair, I did say, "...into January"... not January 3rd. :D

    Monetization for Android is still in progress. Playhaven for Android is in QA test with some kinks being worked out.

    We're aiming for a major release (No, not the native code engine) toward the end of the month with a long-awaited feature. Check the "What's cooking" thread for details.

    Yes, and "into January" is so wonderfully vague, I understand :).

    IAP on Android would be cool for those who want to use it and I think I care less about playhaven than others - I don't like having vendor relationships managed for me, so lemme know when users can talk to playhaven directly.

    I'm more interested in seeing improved existing base features like a more flexible OpenURL behavior and improved sound, maybe the ability to select tables by name during gameplay...y'know, that stuff to make games, not nickel & dime people.

    Also, in the future I'd prefer to be addressed as Pablo McPositive, which I think has a nice ring to it. Sounds...multicultural.
  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    @Pixelmetal - Vague to some, pretty direct others. January is a pretty clear time frame from my perspective. It's a case of what you consider vague, I'm afraid. If I said, "Sometime next year" that'd be pretty vague... or "Sometime before the world ends." "Sometime before my son goes to college". :D

    Pablo McPositive it is!

    Everyone wants GameSalad to be everything to everyone - but there seems to be a fairly significant disconnect in how GameSalad is supposed to cover it's costs. Folks want it to remain free, and never buy Pro - well, Ok, that's fine... but then complain when we implement an ad solution to help supplement costs and keep it free. (The "More Games" button has seen less of this criticism than the admittedly invasive full screen ads, however.)

    I've also seen several arguments as to why Playhaven and other options should be "open box" and GameSalad shouldn't be a middleman. The bottom line being that GameSalad makes everything easy. All those additional steps you'd need to do to incorporate and share with Playhaven are minimized to a single step. While many of you are fully capable of coding it into your games, the point of our ease of use is to allow quick and easy implementation... we did that work for you, and now all it requires is a few simple clicks. It's not perfect, but I'd say that's a pretty nice, easy way to bring it to your customers.

    There's also a small matter of finances. Without income, GameSalad does not function... on any level. We want you to make money using GameSalad - which is why we want to bring new monetization options and other features to the table. GameSalad is less a vendor of Playhaven than we are a facilitator. As I stated above, we eliminated multiple steps in the process for you. And it's a successful feature in it's current implementation - one that many of our users utilize and make a fairly nice additional income from.

    Pro subscriptions alone don't cover costs. Every little bit counts, of course, but the assumption that a major company is able to function solely on the income of a yearly subscription isn't realistic. The bulk of this isn't directed at you, per se, and it's certainly nothing new. But a little reiteration can't hurt, I suppose. We are a business - we want to see our customers succeed just as much as we want to see ourselves succeed... without customers no company survives. But even to insinuate that GameSalad does nothing to help our developers borders on straining the bonds of reality pretty significantly. This has always been very much a "for the developer, by the developer" company.

    TL;DR - we're working in your favor, cut us some slack.



    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • PixelMetalPixelMetal Posts: 283Member
    edited January 2013
    @SaladStraightShooter

    Yeah, lemme clarify: GS putting PlayHaven in for people that want to use it? Cool. Neato. Groovy. Something that doesn't have to be implemented by the dev? Not a bad thing.

    PlayHaven reports coming from GS, and not being able to use the tools offered by working directly with PH? MMmmm....ehhhh. I dunno. You guys seem like you're busy with other stuff and it'd be nice to customize that experience a bit more for specific audiences than is currently possible. Maybe that's changing, in which case: see above.

    But yeah, my earlier rant aside, I'm sure you're all doing your best to do what you think your market wants delivered to them. Maybe that's where the disconnect lies, and the market/userbase is changing.

    For example: I'm not sure why anyone would or should be worrying about non-paying users who just want to throw out shovelware with as many ad options as possible, but I'm not in the mobile game development tool business and maybe things are different there - the grass is greener, the sky's a different color (and it's not due to pollution), toilets flush the opposite direction, Shiner is on tap...madness.

  • BBEnkBBEnk Posts: 1,764Member
    GameSalad is an awesome tool for making game apps with zero programming knowledge but math helps, lol. I do hope that GameSalad continues forward and becomes very successful and thats good for Free and Pro users.
    I do look forward too new features in GameSalad but so far nothing has stopped me from making my games, even the one I'm working on now which is pretty big with lots of things going on. it's a Mario type game with a Store and mini games and all kinds of stuff. But as GameSalad stands right now I have found no limits theres always a way to make something work for me anyway so far, but without GameSalad I don't think any of my games would exist.
    I've not had in real success with my games so far made less then $300 bucks in 2 years, But that has not turned me away, just makes me look forward to my next release and learn from the past ones and improve what I can do because you never know.
    The only thing I would like to have is Android and Windows 8 monetization other then that. I do look forward to future updates and whatever new tools they give us.

    Thanks to the entire GameSalad Team for your hard work.

  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    @Pixelmetal - ok, you get a few points for saying Shiner being on tap as part of your idealized universe.

    I have to agree with you regarding Playhaven reporting - I'd prefer it was much more prompt, robust and accessible. It's getting there, and it's a process, but I do feel it should have been a more seamless one up front. So that's what I'm working towards, when I can. It's all part of trying to be more transparent - and that's something I fully support.

    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

This discussion has been closed.