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GameSalad Mac Creator 0.10.2 Beta

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Comments

  • wolfbirdgameswolfbirdgames Posts: 66Member
    @Hymloe. As much as I love GS, I completely agree. Until they fix this I am going back to 10.1.
  • HymloeHymloe Posts: 1,651Member

    Am I the only one with issue in this release? Like what is going on?!!! As soon as I opened a 10.1 file in 10.2, Actors are appearing where they should not, and attribute are not doing what they are supposed to do in some scenes. I was reluctant to update and this proves why. Now my submission has to wait again. ALso, when I preview a scene and music is playing even after I end the preview, THE MUSIC IS STILL PLAYING.
    :-/ ??


    I've had the music bug, where after I back out of the previewer, the music keeps going.

    My project is really complex, and there's so many things gone wrong, I can't even really get into the game. There's no way I could go through and try to figure out where everything has gone wrong without a proper debugger. I just would not know where to start. I'm procedurally generating levels, and taking mission values from tables, I just have no starting point to know where a problem might be stemming from. I've sent my project to QA, and having them actually fix the creator and the viewer is really my only hope to continue working on my project with future releases of Game Salad.


    (Personally, I'd suggest you roll back to 0.10.1 for the Creator and the Viewer, if you're trying to release soon.)

  • HymloeHymloe Posts: 1,651Member
    Slowboy said:

    Hi Snap/Thomas, It looks like FryingBacon has found an 'unworkaround?!'
    To elaborate though - make a new table, or look at one of your existing tables....
    Columns and Rows both start at 1, yes? There is no Row 0, and there is no Column 0.
    So any code that was about to 'choose' a row or column that at some point in its calculations eluded that it might, or might not, try 'choosing' row or column 'zero', even if it never ever intended to finally 'choose' 'zero' - the very thought that it even had the audacity to consider that 'zero' was even an option is now enough of an insult to Machine Code in general that your app will be stopped in its tracks the very moment this callous and frankly ignorant insubordination is discovered. And rightfully so.
    Elaborate enough?!


    Surely to FIX that "problem" is simply to break a whole lot of people's projects.

    And if it wasn't causing anyone a problem, why make it a problem?

    Sounds like Schrodinger's Cat.

    Just because the cat in the closed box MIGHT be playing computer games, doesn't mean we need to send him to bed without any supper, because in actuality he may very well be doing his homework.

  • HymloeHymloe Posts: 1,651Member

    @Slowboy - Could you elaborate please?

    Slowboy said:

    Hey Snap, I think they mean you can't address a row or column as a zero, don't they?
    Quote : 'since in a spreadsheet there are no column or rows with a value of 0'
    eg, if you have a formula that would 'eventually' pick a row from 1 to 10, you couldn't leave it hanging around looking at row 0 until you needed it.

    - Thomas


    Is there a good reason why we can't have it hanging around looking at row or column 0 until we point it at another row or column?

    Memory leak or something? Is it really a bad thing?
  • HymloeHymloe Posts: 1,651Member

    @saladstraightshooter

    If the GS team fixes a bug, then it really needs to be properly documented and listed in the release notes... so that users can know if the fixed code is going to need changes making to projects.

    Seriously... ditch the vague approach, where you simply say "various bug fixes" and actually start providing thorough documentation, so your not hobbling people everytime the GS team puts out an update.

    HERE HERE!

    Brilliantly put.

    I want to see specific details about what's been changed.
    There needs to be accountability and clarity.
  • SnapFireStudiosSnapFireStudios Posts: 1,603Member
    @Slowboy - I'm sorry, I think I get it.
    But to clarify, my rules that check for 0 or 1 in already existing columns and rows will still work?
    Thanks,
    - Thomas

    Ignore females. Acquire currency.

  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Posts: 9,934Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef
    @slowboy
    Slowboy said:

    I came here looking for Tables discussions, but no one appears to have noticed that the Open URL behaviour no longer has the expressions button?!? Really? Has this actually been removed? Can anyone confirm please?

    @saladstraightshooter mentioned this earlier in this thread. not why it had been removed but just that it had and it might be causing problems.

    It's not my fault I never learned to take responsibility for anything. ;)

  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Posts: 9,934Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef
    @Hymloe everyone gets it. your not happy with the build. you think everyone should go back to 0.10.1. the GS staff is at home right now most likely so maybe you should wait till morning to voice one big long post rather than a bunch that will likely get skimmed over.

    believe it or not theres a lot of people not having issues as well. I've test my projects and everything works great. one thing I don't have in mine verse most everyone here with an issue is tables. so the issue really seems like there maybe is something to do with tables and not the creator has been destroyed as a whole.

    Im not saying your concerns are invalid by any means, just that you might have a little better reception from the people who can address them if your not so "GameSalad is nothing but a bunch of complete freaking morons who have no idea what they are doing, ruining my chances at completing my face melting game" …

    I hope it gets worked out for you.

    Cheers

    It's not my fault I never learned to take responsibility for anything. ;)

  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    @Slowboy - it was also only a cosmetic change. The expression editor in Open Url was disabled some time ago. It was a prototype feature that was released to the wild by mistake. Prior to 10.2 the server simply ignored the expression.

    @Chunkypixels - The release notes are pretty straightforward with what is fixed. It doesn't simply say, "Various bug fixes". You're basically chiding us for fixing bugs here and it's coming across as, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." I've actually made a concerted effort with QA to assure we get the release notes early and that they are robust and truly indicative of what is contained in the upcoming release. There are always improvements to a process.


    @Hymloe - I should have a breakdown of why your project is breaking soon from QA as I believe they completed a debug. From what I gather there was no indication that it was a GameSalad bug.

    Furthermore, our fixing a bug identified as that - a bug - seems more like we are following due diligence and improving GameSalad. I can understand folks are frustrated because they may have to go back and adjust code... but this is development. Simplified by GS's ease of use, but still development. We're not trying to screw over our developers by working to improve our product. Implying that doesn't really help the dialog here. You're frustrated and tired - gauging from your barrage of posts - but thus far your frustration with GameSalad is misplaced.
    Hymloe said:



    Surely to FIX that "problem" is simply to break a whole lot of people's projects.

    And if it wasn't causing anyone a problem, why make it a problem?

    Sounds like Schrodinger's Cat.

    I'm not really sure of what you mean to imply here - that we fixed a bug that didn't need to be fixed? Or that we did this intentionally?

    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • dmilinovichiiidmilinovichiii Posts: 620Member
    @SaladStraightShooter

    Is there any chance of Tapjoy being added as a monetization option within the next few updates? Or other services?

    And, I know you are probably tired of hearing it, but is there any new news or updates that you can give us about Lua Free? Maybe a rough time frame or how many versions away it is?
  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    edited March 2013



    Its really poor for you to expect people to know how something is changing their rules and logic, if they simply havent been told of the changes made behind the scenes.

    As noted by our early response and applying QA resources for debugging, we acknowledged that there were issues we need to clarify the cause of. With such a large release this unfortunately happens. The issue became all the more worse when everyone began screaming "Fire!" in a crowded theater before anyone realized it was the fog machine in the front row...


    I'd suggest you completely rethink the whole bug test/bugfix/testing process too, and make it a much more open process, where you actually work with a much larger section of the community, so that these issues that always seem to rear their head every update are located sooner... some of the issues are simply too big to get through a proper test phase, and just raise questions as to what kind of testing GS actually does.

    So far our initial investigations into issues being experienced haven't yielded bugs - so I'm not sure what you mean by questioning our QA process. (we are still in the process, however, so please don't take that as me saying, "This is all on you!" Issues is a pretty broad term here - if you're able to create a brand new project and it's working perfectly, but your old project is broken, do you think the issue lies with us or the old project?

    There are literally thousands of permutations to account for. Every project is different. Compound this by thousands. Do you truly believe that any company has the resources to test 30,000 projects to assure bug fixes or architecture changes won't break things for each individual user?


    But yup... back to the main point... you cant try to throw it back on the users when you havent even told them about specific fixes that youve made behind the scenes... you need to document these changes, and make them public to the userbase.

    When the users spent the better part of the last day and a half insisting that GameSalad is broken and we discover it wasn't on our side, then yes... it's appropriate that we throw those issues back to the users. Are you saying we should be accountable for fixing everyone's logic, or vet even the smallest change?

    But to your point - we have actually introduced a better testing process to our beta testers (line cooks) that may eventually be opened up to all Pro users, effectively turning all Pro users into beta testers if they desired to do so.

    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • entersimonentersimon Posts: 269Member
    edited March 2013
    @saladstraightshooter

    Although this "bug" didn't directly affect me since I have never used the "zero" column in a project, I believe the real problem here is that it wasn't directly documented as a fix, and thus caused confusion.

    Every update there are problems to address, and they are, but this is a product of confusion. Don't get discouraged or think it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I know every single person that works at GameSalad is very intelligent and hard working. So look at this as a learning experience based on how the community has reacted. Sometimes the things that seem so trivial can spark mass confusion and anger.

    Keep up the hard work. It is appreciated even though that's not always how it seems.

    Check out my daily app development blog at TheIndieDev.com

  • SaladStraightShooterSaladStraightShooter Austin, TxPosts: 3,081Member, Chef Emeritus
    edited March 2013

    @saladstraightshooter

    Although this "bug" didn't directly affect me since I have never used the "zero" column in a project, I believe the real problem here is that it wasn't directly documented as a fix, and thus caused confusion.

    Every update there are problems to address, and they are, but this is a product of confusion. Don't get discouraged or think it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I know every single person that works at GameSalad is very intelligent and hard working. So look at this as a learning experience based on how the community has reacted. Sometimes the things that seem so trivial can spark mass confusion and anger.

    Keep up the hard work. It is appreciated even though that's not always how it seems.

    Well spoken with valid points - I don't want it to ever appear that GameSalad isn't taking lessons learned when they arise. It's because we take this seriously that it's sometimes appropriate to explain and defend our position.



    Why do you keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means.

  • The_Gamesalad_GuruThe_Gamesalad_Guru Posts: 9,904Member
    I agree with the fact that tables shouldn't and can not address row or column zero. It was a straight logic solution to hold the code until the variables are set makes total sense to me and I knew what I needed to do once I got the information. As GS closes the loopholes that let's bad logic slide by this will happen. I have a very complex game with tons of code and expressions and all of my stuff works great and solid and performs even better. As I always say just because something works doesn't mean it's great logic. Always backup your project, I use time machine and I can go back an hour or months if needed. This is a must when one is dedicating so much time to any kind of computer project. Analyze you approach to projects and be sure you have thought out how to cover all issues that could arise.
  • HymloeHymloe Posts: 1,651Member
  • jonmulcahyjonmulcahy Posts: 10,376Member, Sous Chef
    Hymloe said:

    @Slowboy - Could you elaborate please?

    Slowboy said:

    Hey Snap, I think they mean you can't address a row or column as a zero, don't they?
    Quote : 'since in a spreadsheet there are no column or rows with a value of 0'
    eg, if you have a formula that would 'eventually' pick a row from 1 to 10, you couldn't leave it hanging around looking at row 0 until you needed it.

    - Thomas


    Is there a good reason why we can't have it hanging around looking at row or column 0 until we point it at another row or column?

    Memory leak or something? Is it really a bad thing?
    because row or column 0 don't exist. it validates as an invalid expression and could cause all sorts of problems. it's a good thing it has been fixed. it makes all of us hold our code to a higher standard.

    it's been a pain rewriting my code to get around this, but it was a necessary thing. These sort of 'bugs' have been popping up since I started using GS waaay back with .5. they fix a bug and people need to adjust. it's happened before and will happen again as we move towards the lua free horizon.

    backup your projects and be prepared.
  • natzuurnatzuur Posts: 304Member
    Although you make some valid points @SaladStraightShooter when something effects so many users and is fundamental to many projects it seems to me it would be critical to get the information out clearly and quickly. Something as simple as in the release notes stating "TableCellValue can no longer reference attributes with a value below 1 for columns and rows, this change is a fix to tables as row 0,col 0 is not a valid position" would have bene perfect, instead we had to wait for QA to pass it on to a user to pass it on to us. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to review peoples projects and push forward with awesome stuff like the mutli-threading capabilities but some transparency and communication would be much appreciated in future releases as i'm sure with the major changes planned this sort of thing could become commonplace. In a real world situation a fake gun or a real gun drawn in public is still likely to get you shot/arrested/any number of bad consequences, but if someone is holding a live demo scheduled and announced ahead of time it's not a problem. Basically don't turn the fog machine on and expect people to think it's NOT a fire =).
  • Team6LabsTeam6Labs Posts: 541Member
    I feel like GameSalad needs a new QA Team. There have been bugs in almost all of the releases, even after months of waiting. what was the big feature we got in 10.2? Oh yeah, mobclix... Sure, a few engine fixes, but several bugs to go along with it.

    GS needs to shell out some cash for some good engineers that can really get the ball rolling.

    GS's priorities should be -
    1) Bug Fixes
    2) New Engine
    3) Other features

    It's really difficult to work with bugs stopping us or crashing our programs all the time. I have one project thats about 50mb and I have to save literally every 3 minutes to prevent crashing.

    Revive Apps Getting Low Downloads - http://www.AppReviver.com

  • Yovanny369Yovanny369 Posts: 105Member
    So far so good!

    I agree with you @FryingBaconStudios
    " As I always say just because something works doesn't mean it's great logic."

    thanks GS team! ;)
  • dmilinovichiiidmilinovichiii Posts: 620Member
    @poisenden
    What computer are you using? Because I'm able to work on 20 MB projects with only 4 GB of ram while keeping iTunes, Chrome, and Mail open. I still do occasionally have to restart, but only every hour or so. Are you working on an old mac mini or something?
  • BBEnkBBEnk Posts: 1,764Member
    Well I've been working on my Game for near a year now or a little more it has 60 scenes and near 75mb and tons of logic stacked deep in some cases and when I updated to 10.2 it still worked just fine, Thanks Gamesalad.

    But as I appreciate the Android monetization It would be nice to get something more useful to actually making a game aka a cool new behavior or even some sort of physic update anything ok thats my rant.

    Thanks Gamesalad

  • SingleSparqSingleSparq Posts: 1,339Member
    @Portuman

    +1000

    Member since November 2009 :D
    Twitter: @SingleSparq Web: www.singlesparq.com

  • artfishartfish Posts: 369Member, PRO
    @SaladStraightShooter Whatever is or isn't going on, I appreciate your quick response time. At least I don't feel forsaken when I encounter problems. :)]
  • SparkyidrSparkyidr Posts: 2,033Member
    edited March 2013
    Well.. Ater reading all the scare stories here, I bit the bullet and updated to 10.2 anyway.

    And....Just loaded our latest game which
    a)I need to get finished in the next couple of weeks
    and
    b)is almost unbearably complex with tables passing info all over the shop

    works fine. Not 1 hitch so far.

    EVERY time there is a GS update, every one is far to quick to pass the buck back to the team saying anything that then doesn't work is a bug.

    In all the time I have been using GS, I have only ever had an update break my game (properly break it, not the couple of times that genunie bugs have snuck in) 1 time....and that one time was a loooong time ago when we went from 30sec initial load times, to 5...so a massive engine change!

    If you make good logic in the first place, it should't break (either at all, or very very little)

    that being said. Having a more detailed in depth breakdown of what's changed from version to version wouldn't go amiss.

    back to work.

    (p.s. when I say properly break.......it actually only took a couple of hours to fix, to get rid of the janky logic I had in to workaround the engine at that time)
  • EbreezeEbreeze Posts: 481Member, PRO
    edited March 2013
    Glad I haven't updated yet :D

    ...I ve been with GS since version .91 ....rule of thumb I've learned....wait a week or 2 >:) :D >:)
  • artfishartfish Posts: 369Member, PRO
    edited March 2013
    Well after extensive code cleaning, I was able to solve one problem. I can say that I had bad code that wasn't breaking it in the old version, but now causes an issue. Problem solved. Sorry for the initial freak out.

    After setting up a debug situation for my other problem, I have figured out what is occuring, but I have not been able to nail down why.
    I have 3 rings that rotate by increments. Here is my rule. when touch is released change self.rotation to self.rotation-45 and another that is -90 and yet another that is -45.
    I have 3 actors displaying the angles as debug references. When clicking in the previewer, the rings rotate in exact increments.

    When I'm previewing in the creator on my iphone or a build on the phone when I get to 90 on a ring, its displaying 89.999999 and not 90. so my condition of when self.rotation = 90 , is never met and my puzzle is unable to be solved. Now, I can pretty easily change up my rules and fix the puzzle now that I have figured out what's going on, but more importantly, why is this happening now and not in previous versions? - and, only on the device?

    Also 0 in the creator preview is 360 on the iPhone 4s?
  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Posts: 9,934Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef
    poisenden said:


    I have one project thats about 50mb and I have to save literally every 3 minutes to prevent crashing.

    Have you ever thought maybe its your code causing the crashes????


    It's not my fault I never learned to take responsibility for anything. ;)

  • lycettebroslycettebros Posts: 1,598Member, PRO
    I am having a serious case of deja vu here.

    1. Gotta keep backups of old GS versions.

    2. Never open a GS file in the latest version without leaving a backup of the file.

    3. Give it a couple of weeks of bug reporting and wait for a hotfix before publishing with the new GS version.

    4. Patience is the GameSalad watchword.
  • kinzuakinzua Posts: 554Member
    the bug being discussed in 10.2 ref to table behaviour was there in 10.1 too.. The way around is to assign a variable with table value and use that variable in the exp editor.

    Good update. Things looking up.
    Cheers on mobclix tie up.

    GS is certainly going in the right direction. Please work on physics modules. Like poly collision, joints , etc. Its been long time in waiting.

    Thanks.
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