Working Together to get sales
vegasmike1
Member Posts: 192
This might be more of a rant than a good topic but I honestly want everyone with GS who comes to the forum to give some consideration to my thoughts, concerns etc.
I have published now 5 games with GS, it is fun making games, and it is also frustrating, either from my own lack of understanding or from what seem to be holes in GS. I realize the code is called beta but... Ok past that. I am not complaining, making a game engine is no small task and he folks at GS have done a good job, it could and should be better but they already know that so there is no point in beating that horse to death. They are working on the program and I am sure over time it will out perform even xcode, that might simply be a wish.
Here is the point of my mind meanderings, Can we really help each other?
I have asked for and gotten lots of help from GS members, the list is long, so the people here are great and I think many are dedicated to making good games. But a good game is so subjective, when I have an idea I think its amazing and I rush right in and start doing the GS boogie. But as I get further into the game, I start to loose any objectivity and the process starts to become more work and less fun. This might be due to my own inability to fully understand math and the use of it, but it is the one area where there may be more power and I just dont know how to wield it. It like getting a light saber and cutting off my hand because I dont know what end is the business end.
Here is what I would like to discuss with all who have an interest, can we find a way to share games, and protect ourselves from the bad guys who might steal the idea or art or whatever, and then have a large critical mass of other developers who can speak their mind regarding a game, in short tell the unvarnished truth as you see it. Also the developer who submitted the game to the review board, would promise to NOT get mad but take the review to heart and consider the comments for the purpose of helping.
There is no book that says ok if your game does all this in this way, you will make money. I suppose if it did then we would all be making lots of cash or we might all be making the same game, or something like that.
What brings this up for me is I just released a game called robosaurus, I just got a review that was pretty bad, but the person did not say, oh I hate the art, the sound sucks,, the game play is horrid, they say, hey these guys should pay us 2 bucks to download the game and then delete it. Not a great review, but the question is, what did the person not like.
maybe if we had this open review board, where people could say hey this sucks, and this is why, or this code you are using is really bad, do this, or whatever, but give the developer some real thoughts, some real ideas, some real meat to the game. I know that many of the folks here are VERY nice, maybe that is part of being part of forum. And publicly it might not be real nice to slam someones game, but in private a review group could in the long and short term do a few things, one, review games and catch more bugs, review games and art, and sound, review logic, and review game play, and overall rate the game. The developer could either take the review to heart and make some changes, or tell everyone to piss off, and do what they want. I for one would like to have that kind of critical attack on my games, they would get better and I could take the comments and review, make changes and resubmit to the review group.
I am sure that everyone here suffers from the same thing, lots of effort, lots of art, lots of sounds, and work to make a game but the more time you spend with the game, the more the game becomes a task to complete and not a adventure in making money or making a great game.
I am probably suggesting something that no one wants to do, but I do, and I would be happy to review any game sent my way and promise not to steal the game, or the art and I would be happy to put my name to a legal document stating such. My thoughts, my review might help the other developer to see some aspect of the game that is not working and then make changes which might give the game a better chance to reward the developer.
If games cost 60 bucks and had all the marketing money etc that goes with it, I would be less likely to be so open, but people could for 99 cents buy 60 games for one console game. So the appetite for games is not limited to budget alone.
I have bought games that people rave about and my response is, you have to be drunk to like this game, I got a game here from a developer recently with a promo code, game not mentioned but the game had very limited game play and worse it was overly difficult to play and win the game. After many attempts I just put the game away, it was not fun. Had that developer had that info prior to release he/she could have given some extra thought to the game before release, I have seen the reviews and they say as much as I have just said.
But the game is not a bad game, its kind of a cool idea, and yet, it has not had any real good sales.
I am not saying that this review consortium would guarantee sales but it might help. We are not competitors, we are all in the same boat, if you dont want to make money and just want to make cool games, that is cool, but you could still benefit from the review.
Even though the folks at GS have a bit of a hands off attitude, which is probably good, at some point any competitive edge they might have today will fade if the games made with the tool dont get noticed and dont get some sales of some substance.
Angry birds has sold over 8 million copies, why? Is it a good game, yep, is it easy to understand, pretty much, is it fun, yep, did some group of people spend a ton of sleepless nights banging out code and then doing it again and again and again, while I dont know the answer I suspect that is the case.
Productivity software is much easier, I think of accounting, there are list of tasks to do, numbers to crunch and its done. there really are not too many ways to add 2 and 2. But games, they are the most difficult thing to make if your intention is to make a good game.
I think that for the most part, most of the GS developers are off on their own, and as such they dont have a big budget, and an internal review board, etc etc, but together we can be as big and as directed as they try and need to be.
Lets discuss this stuff. Any takers.
Mike
I have published now 5 games with GS, it is fun making games, and it is also frustrating, either from my own lack of understanding or from what seem to be holes in GS. I realize the code is called beta but... Ok past that. I am not complaining, making a game engine is no small task and he folks at GS have done a good job, it could and should be better but they already know that so there is no point in beating that horse to death. They are working on the program and I am sure over time it will out perform even xcode, that might simply be a wish.
Here is the point of my mind meanderings, Can we really help each other?
I have asked for and gotten lots of help from GS members, the list is long, so the people here are great and I think many are dedicated to making good games. But a good game is so subjective, when I have an idea I think its amazing and I rush right in and start doing the GS boogie. But as I get further into the game, I start to loose any objectivity and the process starts to become more work and less fun. This might be due to my own inability to fully understand math and the use of it, but it is the one area where there may be more power and I just dont know how to wield it. It like getting a light saber and cutting off my hand because I dont know what end is the business end.
Here is what I would like to discuss with all who have an interest, can we find a way to share games, and protect ourselves from the bad guys who might steal the idea or art or whatever, and then have a large critical mass of other developers who can speak their mind regarding a game, in short tell the unvarnished truth as you see it. Also the developer who submitted the game to the review board, would promise to NOT get mad but take the review to heart and consider the comments for the purpose of helping.
There is no book that says ok if your game does all this in this way, you will make money. I suppose if it did then we would all be making lots of cash or we might all be making the same game, or something like that.
What brings this up for me is I just released a game called robosaurus, I just got a review that was pretty bad, but the person did not say, oh I hate the art, the sound sucks,, the game play is horrid, they say, hey these guys should pay us 2 bucks to download the game and then delete it. Not a great review, but the question is, what did the person not like.
maybe if we had this open review board, where people could say hey this sucks, and this is why, or this code you are using is really bad, do this, or whatever, but give the developer some real thoughts, some real ideas, some real meat to the game. I know that many of the folks here are VERY nice, maybe that is part of being part of forum. And publicly it might not be real nice to slam someones game, but in private a review group could in the long and short term do a few things, one, review games and catch more bugs, review games and art, and sound, review logic, and review game play, and overall rate the game. The developer could either take the review to heart and make some changes, or tell everyone to piss off, and do what they want. I for one would like to have that kind of critical attack on my games, they would get better and I could take the comments and review, make changes and resubmit to the review group.
I am sure that everyone here suffers from the same thing, lots of effort, lots of art, lots of sounds, and work to make a game but the more time you spend with the game, the more the game becomes a task to complete and not a adventure in making money or making a great game.
I am probably suggesting something that no one wants to do, but I do, and I would be happy to review any game sent my way and promise not to steal the game, or the art and I would be happy to put my name to a legal document stating such. My thoughts, my review might help the other developer to see some aspect of the game that is not working and then make changes which might give the game a better chance to reward the developer.
If games cost 60 bucks and had all the marketing money etc that goes with it, I would be less likely to be so open, but people could for 99 cents buy 60 games for one console game. So the appetite for games is not limited to budget alone.
I have bought games that people rave about and my response is, you have to be drunk to like this game, I got a game here from a developer recently with a promo code, game not mentioned but the game had very limited game play and worse it was overly difficult to play and win the game. After many attempts I just put the game away, it was not fun. Had that developer had that info prior to release he/she could have given some extra thought to the game before release, I have seen the reviews and they say as much as I have just said.
But the game is not a bad game, its kind of a cool idea, and yet, it has not had any real good sales.
I am not saying that this review consortium would guarantee sales but it might help. We are not competitors, we are all in the same boat, if you dont want to make money and just want to make cool games, that is cool, but you could still benefit from the review.
Even though the folks at GS have a bit of a hands off attitude, which is probably good, at some point any competitive edge they might have today will fade if the games made with the tool dont get noticed and dont get some sales of some substance.
Angry birds has sold over 8 million copies, why? Is it a good game, yep, is it easy to understand, pretty much, is it fun, yep, did some group of people spend a ton of sleepless nights banging out code and then doing it again and again and again, while I dont know the answer I suspect that is the case.
Productivity software is much easier, I think of accounting, there are list of tasks to do, numbers to crunch and its done. there really are not too many ways to add 2 and 2. But games, they are the most difficult thing to make if your intention is to make a good game.
I think that for the most part, most of the GS developers are off on their own, and as such they dont have a big budget, and an internal review board, etc etc, but together we can be as big and as directed as they try and need to be.
Lets discuss this stuff. Any takers.
Mike
Comments
Gamesalad is "game creation for the rest of us", us being the one that are not able to code. But who is not able to code, lots of times isn't able to make games too. That's why there's a lot of Gamesalad crap out there, and there are people that creeps out just seeing the Gamesalad splashscreen.
I think that it would hurt me if someone here tell me that the game I worked so hard on is not really good or worse, is crap. But it would hurt me even more if people who bought it say that.
So yeah, being kind is good and all, but criticize sometimes can help. And if it can improve the overall quality of Gamesalad games, than that's good for the community too.
And if no one does, than play your game and say to yourself if you would ever pay for that game. If it's a game that you would want. One that you would wait for. If it is (and you have good tastes
Saying thing like it's my first game and such, are just excuses, cause if you say that, it means even you think that your game does not reach quality standard, and if you don't want to improve it, then you're doing it for fun. And that's all right. But release it for free then. Selling a game that you would not buy for me it's not caring about your customer, nor about you.
All this are obviously just my opinions, and I'm not a succesfull developer (Samurai Kid should be out soon, but I just did the "gamesalad" part, concept and everything else hasn't popped out of my head), nor I have experience in this business.
It's all just coming from my passion for games, as a buyer
Its a mixed bag. This is one reason I made the www.GSProForum.com forum board. There is a section there called "GameSalad games in development". It could be a place for such a consortium as the people using that board tend to be more serious about game dev and more experienced.
I recommend that you define what you are looking for when you post a request for reviews. Introduce the game and the objective. Outline what kind of feedback/criticism you desire (ie graphics/UI/game play/ level design/ etc). Invite reviewers to an adHoc version. Explain your background and approach and set up an environment that invites open criticism and perhaps realistic and at times harsh criticism. Also make sure you define your goals...(ie. make money, to learn GS, experimental prototype...etc.).
I too would desire this. I personally am doing this to make money and constructive feedback is always welcome. I also spent 6 years in architecture school where professors can make grown men cry and can be incredibly brutal in their reviews of your design work and execution of the design. It was NEVER all praise and never all harsh. There was usually a balance.
After 6 years of being critiqued (by people that critique for a living)...I learned to understand the value of it and it also taught me how to critique myself. This is what a good design school can teach you. Failure can teach you some good lessons too and learning from failure is ESSENTIAL to progressing.
But group critiques could be a good idea. You (or anyone) just needs to set up the request for engagement and INVITE people to slam/bash/tear apart/ and give REAL and HONEST feedback on a project. However...if you ask for this...you can't be offended if the reviews are strong and direct.
I can (and have) given tough reviews of games...and sometimes it was appreciated where other times they probably thought I was a dick.
I am always open to giving someone a critique on a project...just ask me...perhaps here or on www.GSProForum.com (which I check daily).
Review or critique call it what you want, I want someone to play the game, tell me facts as they see them and keep the emotion out of the picture. That is what I think.
So do we do something more or are there those out there that would like to share game files, and review with the legal promise of not stealing the stuff.
Mike