We have emailed the contact they sent, asking what it is exactly that they have copyright on.
Be interesting to see what they come back with.
as I said earlier, Apple have weakened Lima Sky's position by having a section on the app store called "Best Doodle Games", thus setting a precedence of legitamising the graphical style and the word Doodle.
Im all for Devs protecting their IP and taking action against blatant rip-offs that are simply trying to latch onto their success... but I think Lima Sky are taking too wide a swipe here.
Doodle refers to an age old way of drawing, which in itself, I'd like to think they cant claim copyright on.
In any case...they were beaten to it by a good 27 years... as the first game I can remember using the Doodle moniker was an old Dragon32 game called Doodle Bug...from around 1983. Im pretty sure with a bit of research, I could find half a dozen other Doodle games before Doodle Jump. Which kind of puts a hole in their claim.
From reading Butterbeans opening post, it sounds like Lima Sky are only just getting around to sorting out the Trademark... which sounds a bit fishy...
@Hunn I'd rather not post the full letter on a public forum. Sorry man.
It deffo reads like they are in the process of "trying" to sort something our re: copyright, and are doing a blanket sweep of every app with the word doodle in it, or at least starting with the word doodle.
part of the letter reads
"...we believe your app may infringe..."
Believe...and may.... make the letter feel fairly vague to us, and seems like they are trying scare tactic to get people to change the name of their games.
Like we have all said already, it's still quite vague what they have and have not copyright on. Which is why we emailed back asking. We also pointed out the fact of Apple having a doodle section on the store at certain points in time sets precedence that doodle has now become a style of game. If I were them, I'd be more worried about all the clones of their game there are out there. I've even seen a few that directly use their sprites (re-coloured)
I'm off to copyright : scribble sketch and such ;o)
then send a vaguely threatening email to every dev with those words in their titles. (I jest of course)
They claim in their copy right paper, that "Doodle" is the name of their character. They "prove" it with
"Screen shot of iTunes App Store page for purchasing Doodle Jump game. See third paragraph "Epic New Update" for use of "Doodle" as name of character in game"
butterbean said: Well, I was just contacted by Apple today that stated I was infringing on the rights of Lima Sky, and to contact them to resolve the matter.
I'm curious as to why Apple is sending you a letter. This should be between you and Lima Sky. Since when is Apple a messenger? Sounds like middle school stuff.
It looks like a fight is brewing. It doesn't look good for Lima Sky. Even if they win, which seems unlikely, they lose. The community is buzzing and it's creating lots of negativity around the Doodle Jump image. They're becoming the bad guys.
Even if your game is taken down, you can still fight to get it back up there. Heh, I've been wondering if I should make a "doodle" game and join in on this fight. Nah, that's just antagonizing an issue. I'm not in this fight. Even though I think Lima Sky is overreaching, I'm not going to clutter up the matter.
I still think "Scribble" is cooler.
This is an important moment for App developers. Will a new genre be solidified, or will heavy-handedness dominate the top of the iTunes rankings?
Quote: It is important to note that although there are systems which facilitate the filing, registration or enforcement of trademark rights in more than one jurisdiction on a regional or global basis (e.g. the Madrid and CTM systems, see further below), it is currently not possible to file and obtain a single trademark registration which will automatically apply around the world. Like any national law, trademark laws apply only in their applicable country or jurisdiction, a quality which is sometimes known as "territoriality".
Quote: Where one party makes a threat to sue another for trademark infringement, but does not have a genuine basis or intention to carry out that threat, or does not carry out the threat at all within a certain period, the threat may itself become a basis for legal action.[16] In this situation, the party receiving such a threat may seek from the Court a declaratory judgment; also known as a declaratory ruling.
I didn't find anything in english, but in Hungarian Trademark Law it is clearly stated, that trademark doesn't apply to common words, which describe the style, the art, the quality, the quantity and similar attributes of the product, which describe only selling points.
"Doodle" is clearly just a describing word for the style, so it can't be trademarked. Period.
It also seems, that they don't even have a registered trademark on the word. They are just trying to register it and they have to express themselves, why they think, they are eligible for that.
@Design: Apple contacted me in response to Lima Sky contacting them in regards to my game, and probably many, many others. They gave me their email address and contact info and asked for it to be resolved within 5 business days.
@Peach: Trust me, I get where you're coming from, however, I just don't have the time, and it's not a huge loss for me. I doubt my game will make less than the peanuts it gets now by changing the name. If my game was making a ton of money a day, then it would be a different story, and I speak for many devs like "Shoe the Goose" creators of Jello Doodle, Cookie Doodle, and Cake Doodle that they won't go down without a fight.
I wholeheartedly agree with everyone here that it's a bunch of B.S, and it's a complete joke that they think they can TM the word Doodle.
It's NEVER going to happen, however, I don't have time to deal with this nonsense, and I have bigger fish to fry.
The game they asked me to change is not pulling any income in, so it's not an issue for me.
I did confront the guy who contacted me who is representing Lima Sky and asked him for documentation on the matter.
He sent me their TM paperwork for "Doodle Jump"
I then wrote back and told him that this is not the TM paperwork for Doodle, but rather, Doodle jump.
I told him to keep me posted on the application process, and I'd be very shocked to see it go through. I said there is no way you can TM a common word.
When the dust settles, and their idiotic plan falls through, then I'll gladly change it back, but for now, I just don't have the time or energy to deal with it.
Just to let you know where we are standing on this :
They just emailed us back. Basically saying that they want us to stop using the word doodle in our game, as it's very similar to "Doodle Jump" and could cause customer confusion. They also said that they had requested that Apple no longer use the term Doodle to mean a certain style of game.
In a nutshell: We have emailed back again, asking for documentation on the on-going trademarking of "Doodle", but that we felt it was very unlikely that they would be granted such a trademark.
We also said that we would not be changing the name, as we felt there was no grounds for them to ask for such.
We also pointed out that doodle is a generic term, and that they were not the first to use the word doodle in regards to a game.
Should be interesting to see what happens next.
I totally understand where they are coming from, and it must be frustrating seeing other apps seemingly steal their thunder. The fact is though, everyone knows doodle jump...EVERYONE. Very few people know our game "Doodle Galaxies".
I'm guessing it's no coincidence that they are getting into this now, just as the doodle jump popularity is starting to wane a little.
I know someone that's a TM/patent attorney. In a nutshell, without spewing out any legal jargon, she said it's not black and white, and there is a minute possibility that they will TM the word Doodle... note the word "minute" They have to prove many things, and I'm doubtful that they will be able to.
I have my doubts, but then again, crazier things have happened in this world... we will see But I would bet money that this whole debacle will fail.
The poroblem is, that if people act how they wanted just because people "have no time for dealing with this", then they already won.
I am really, really hoping, they contact us, because I will not change anything and if there is no lawsuit coming, I will sue them back. Just for them to see, where they stand.
Idiots.
This is the proof that blood doesn't change to water.
Hunnenkoenig said: The poroblem is, that if people act how they wanted just because people "have no time for dealing with this", then they already won.
I am really, really hoping, they contact us, because I will not change anything and if there is no lawsuit coming, I will sue them back. Just for them to see, where they stand.
Idiots.
This is the proof that blood doesn't change to water.
They haven't won yet Hunn... I'm sure for every person that gives in, there are quadruple the amount that won't.
I'm making a decision based on my own personal situation, and that is, I'd rather dedicate my time to more important things than fighting over a game that makes less than 5 Gumballs worth of money. I understand and respect your ideals, and I get where you're coming from.
I'm glad this issue has come about though, so when they fail at it, it will set the precedent in the app store that you can't TM common words just because you feel like it.
i have a game on the app store with the word doodle in the title, but still haven't received any email from lame sky. but i definitely wont change anything just because some company thinks they own a common word.
Seems to me Doodle Jump being declared as an original work is a farse. Game play is a clone of PapiJump...The term Doodle has been around since the early 90s as a game name and the art style is a total ripoff.
Butterbean...I would not change a thing. This whole Lima Sky thing will blow over soon enough. Just respond and suggest that "You do not feel that you infringe on any existing trademarks or copyrights as your work is an original work."
The similarities are too close. This guy should sue Lima Sky.
@Photics... no...our GS subscription ran out. We've moved over to Corona and are very happy with it. But I still drop by here once in a while to check GS's pulse.
One other thing on this... I could see Lima Sky successfully trademarking the term "Doodle the Doodler" as a name similar to Mickey Mouse or Ronald McDonald.
But I don't see them getting a trademark for just "Doodle" ... which would be like trademarking "Mouse" or "Quacky" or "Bunny".
This will die...they are just using it as a tactic to weed out the little guys and reduce the search results when "Doodle" is searched. They also are probably looking to get into toys and character licensing...similar to what Angry birds is doing.
This is all rediculous. Lima Sky should especially be smacked since their game is "very" similar to a freeware jumping game (don't remember the name, but was on iPhone BEFORE doodle jump) which itself was a simplified clone of Winter Bells. Had Winter Bells never existed, the red jump ball game wouldn't have existed and therefore Lima Sky would NOT have had Doodle Jump. HYPOCRITES!!!
Also, doodle is indeed a generic word as is the word Edge. Maybe they're working with Tim Langdell on how to be trademark trolls. If all "doodle" games have to be name changed, then every single other game that has a name inspired or based on the name of a popular game such as all the "rope" games will have to change their names as well. Next up, all games with similar mechanics should be altered. So any game like Angry Birds will have to change their gameplay mechanic.
Comments
http://nukezilla.com/2009/05/31/trademark-squatter-gets-edge-pulled-from-the-app-store/
Darren.
We just had the email ;o)
We have emailed the contact they sent, asking what it is exactly that they have copyright on.
Be interesting to see what they come back with.
as I said earlier, Apple have weakened Lima Sky's position by having a section on the app store called "Best Doodle Games", thus setting a precedence of legitamising the graphical style and the word Doodle.
Doodle refers to an age old way of drawing, which in itself, I'd like to think they cant claim copyright on.
In any case...they were beaten to it by a good 27 years... as the first game I can remember using the Doodle moniker was an old Dragon32 game called Doodle Bug...from around 1983. Im pretty sure with a bit of research, I could find half a dozen other Doodle games before Doodle Jump. Which kind of puts a hole in their claim.
From reading Butterbeans opening post, it sounds like Lima Sky are only just getting around to sorting out the Trademark... which sounds a bit fishy...
I want to contact them about the word "Jump"
It deffo reads like they are in the process of "trying" to sort something our re: copyright, and are doing a blanket sweep of every app with the word doodle in it, or at least starting with the word doodle.
part of the letter reads
"...we believe your app may infringe..."
Believe...and may.... make the letter feel fairly vague to us, and seems like they are trying scare tactic to get people to change the name of their games.
Like we have all said already, it's still quite vague what they have and have not copyright on. Which is why we emailed back asking. We also pointed out the fact of Apple having a doodle section on the store at certain points in time sets precedence that doodle has now become a style of game.
If I were them, I'd be more worried about all the clones of their game there are out there.
I've even seen a few that directly use their sprites (re-coloured)
I'm off to copyright :
scribble
sketch
and such ;o)
then send a vaguely threatening email to every dev with those words in their titles. (I jest of course)
Darren.
The guy speaks sense, and also passes on some useful info as to what Lima Sky do and don't have copyright of.
They claim in their copy right paper, that "Doodle" is the name of their character. They "prove" it with
"Screen shot of iTunes App Store page for purchasing Doodle Jump game. See third paragraph "Epic New Update" for use of "Doodle" as name of character in game"
http://tmportal.uspto.gov/external/portal/tow?SRCH=Y&isSubmitted=true&details=&SELECT=US+Serial+No&TEXT=85079944#
From above document as I understand, Lima Sky still has to aprove, that they are eligible for registering the copyright.
As I understand, they have absolutely NO RIGHT to act like they would own the copyright.
And even if they have it. They have it ONLY in the US.
So forign developers still can use it, until Lima Sky registers the word in every single country of the world.
This might help developers better understand a take-down notice...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act#Take_down_and_Put_Back_provisions
Even if your game is taken down, you can still fight to get it back up there. Heh, I've been wondering if I should make a "doodle" game and join in on this fight. Nah, that's just antagonizing an issue. I'm not in this fight. Even though I think Lima Sky is overreaching, I'm not going to clutter up the matter.
I still think "Scribble" is cooler.
This is an important moment for App developers. Will a new genre be solidified, or will heavy-handedness dominate the top of the iTunes rankings?
Maybe Butterbean has changed her mind.
I will try now (but I think there is a time limit).
You can fight them, by taking their money. We will see, if they still have stupid ideas after that.
EDIT: I have sent a message to Apple about wanting a refund in Protest.
We will see, what they say.
I also wrote it in a review in the austrian appstore that I did it so.
Quote:
It is important to note that although there are systems which facilitate the filing, registration or enforcement of trademark rights in more than one jurisdiction on a regional or global basis (e.g. the Madrid and CTM systems, see further below), it is currently not possible to file and obtain a single trademark registration which will automatically apply around the world. Like any national law, trademark laws apply only in their applicable country or jurisdiction, a quality which is sometimes known as "territoriality".
Quote:
Where one party makes a threat to sue another for trademark infringement, but does not have a genuine basis or intention to carry out that threat, or does not carry out the threat at all within a certain period, the threat may itself become a basis for legal action.[16] In this situation, the party receiving such a threat may seek from the Court a declaratory judgment; also known as a declaratory ruling.
I didn't find anything in english, but in Hungarian Trademark Law it is clearly stated, that trademark doesn't apply to common words, which describe the style, the art, the quality, the quantity and similar attributes of the product, which describe only selling points.
"Doodle" is clearly just a describing word for the style, so it can't be trademarked. Period.
It also seems, that they don't even have a registered trademark on the word. They are just trying to register it and they have to express themselves, why they think, they are eligible for that.
@Peach: Trust me, I get where you're coming from, however, I just don't have the time, and it's not a huge loss for me. I doubt my game will make less than the peanuts it gets now by changing the name. If my game was making a ton of money a day, then it would be a different story, and I speak for many devs like "Shoe the Goose" creators of Jello Doodle, Cookie Doodle, and Cake Doodle that they won't go down without a fight.
I wholeheartedly agree with everyone here that it's a bunch of B.S, and it's a complete joke that they think they can TM the word Doodle.
It's NEVER going to happen, however, I don't have time to deal with this nonsense, and I have bigger fish to fry.
The game they asked me to change is not pulling any income in, so it's not an issue for me.
I did confront the guy who contacted me who is representing Lima Sky and asked him for documentation on the matter.
He sent me their TM paperwork for "Doodle Jump"
I then wrote back and told him that this is not the TM paperwork for Doodle, but rather, Doodle jump.
I told him to keep me posted on the application process, and I'd be very shocked to see it go through. I said there is no way you can TM a common word.
When the dust settles, and their idiotic plan falls through, then I'll gladly change it back, but for now, I just don't have the time or energy to deal with it.
They just emailed us back. Basically saying that they want us to stop using the word doodle in our game, as it's very similar to "Doodle Jump" and could cause customer confusion.
They also said that they had requested that Apple no longer use the term Doodle to mean a certain style of game.
In a nutshell:
We have emailed back again, asking for documentation on the on-going trademarking of "Doodle", but that we felt it was very unlikely that they would be granted such a trademark.
We also said that we would not be changing the name, as we felt there was no grounds for them to ask for such.
We also pointed out that doodle is a generic term, and that they were not the first to use the word doodle in regards to a game.
Should be interesting to see what happens next.
I totally understand where they are coming from, and it must be frustrating seeing other apps seemingly steal their thunder. The fact is though, everyone knows doodle jump...EVERYONE. Very few people know our game "Doodle Galaxies".
I'm guessing it's no coincidence that they are getting into this now, just as the doodle jump popularity is starting to wane a little.
I have my doubts, but then again, crazier things have happened in this world... we will see
I am really, really hoping, they contact us, because I will not change anything and if there is no lawsuit coming, I will sue them back. Just for them to see, where they stand.
Idiots.
This is the proof that blood doesn't change to water.
I'm making a decision based on my own personal situation, and that is, I'd rather dedicate my time to more important things than fighting over a game that makes less than 5 Gumballs worth of money. I understand and respect your ideals, and I get where you're coming from.
I'm glad this issue has come about though, so when they fail at it, it will set the precedent in the app store that you can't TM common words just because you feel like it.
They haven't won the battle yet.
http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-sues-to-fight-apples-app-store-trademark-2011-1
i have a game on the app store with the word doodle in the title, but still haven't received any email from lame sky. but i definitely wont change anything just because some company thinks they own a common word.
Their game originally came out in 1992. He says he's emailed Lima
nice.
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=80441
And this opinion:
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showpost.php?p=1532773&postcount=12
And what about this guy?
http://elisegravel.com/en/doodlegarage
Seems to me Doodle Jump being declared as an original work is a farse. Game play is a clone of PapiJump...The term Doodle has been around since the early 90s as a game name and the art style is a total ripoff.
Butterbean...I would not change a thing. This whole Lima Sky thing will blow over soon enough. Just respond and suggest that "You do not feel that you infringe on any existing trademarks or copyrights as your work is an original work."
preview link here if interested:
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?t=79476
Meanwhile... Lima Sky has their side of the story...
http://twitter.com/LimaSky
...it seems that a statement is being prepared.
http://elisegravel.com/node/343
The similarities are too close. This guy should sue Lima Sky.
@Photics...
no...our GS subscription ran out. We've moved over to Corona and are very happy with it. But I still drop by here once in a while to check GS's pulse.
I could see Lima Sky successfully trademarking the term "Doodle the Doodler" as a name similar to Mickey Mouse or Ronald McDonald.
But I don't see them getting a trademark for just "Doodle" ... which would be like trademarking "Mouse" or "Quacky" or "Bunny".
This will die...they are just using it as a tactic to weed out the little guys and reduce the search results when "Doodle" is searched. They also are probably looking to get into toys and character licensing...similar to what Angry birds is doing.
Also, doodle is indeed a generic word as is the word Edge. Maybe they're working with Tim Langdell on how to be trademark trolls. If all "doodle" games have to be name changed, then every single other game that has a name inspired or based on the name of a popular game such as all the "rope" games will have to change their names as well. Next up, all games with similar mechanics should be altered. So any game like Angry Birds will have to change their gameplay mechanic.
triple *facepalm*