Cheated by another gs member ... Part 2!

hman360

Well, this is not the first time it has happened to me, and thanks to you guys, you helped a lot the last time: http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=29333 - I ended up getting all of my money the last time. So I entered a contract with a fellow, who seemed pretty reasonable. We drew up the contract and we both signed it. In the contract it states neither member of the contract can void or opt out without the other's permission. So we have been working together since the end of July. I was not completely satisfied with his attitude/service but I stayed with him since I was locked into the contract. We had our rough points where I was angry with him but we ended up almost ready to release the game. This morning, when I woke up, I received an email from him that stated that he decided to opt out of the contract and he said he's a minor. We were doing a revenue share agreement. He also stated that he would keep the rights to all of the images. I have not paid anything, but I have all of the art. The funny things are that he suggested a revenue share agreement, and it was his idea to write a contract. I do have a lawyer which I contact weekly, and I have notified him. Also, I am not hesitant to sue if something can be done in my favor. I have emailed him about this. I believe I deserve compensation like either money or the images. Many images were made, enough for one complete game. I'm pretty sure that minors are not allowed to sign a contract, let alone sign one and then try to void it. He has wasted about 1 and 1/2 months of my time that can not be compensated fairly, and my project will now be pushed back about 1-2 months. Any ideas?

If anybody wants to know who the user is to avoid future problems, I may release this user's name.

Also, I am trying to avoid a flame war with them. I am also trying to sound as neutral as possible to be fair.

BlackbirdStudios

Well, in the normal rules of law, a minor cannot enter into that type of contract without the parents permission. In fact, the parent would probably have to sign on the minor's behalf. I'm not sure exactly what you should do here. You could sue, but was it going to be a good game anyway?

InLikeFlynn

I think you did the right thing by contacting a lawyer.

Edit: If he's a minor be careful what kind of information you give away and what you accuse him of when asking for advice. Internet forums are not a good place to get legal advice.

SlickZero

Even though it was signed, that contract was never binding since he was a minor. There's probably nothing you can do legally.

You have all the art, keep it. Possession is 9/10ths of the law. Even if the contract said he reserved the rights to the art, again, the contract is not binding.

And in the future, I think it would be best to not deal with minors again, when it comes to something as serious as your business.

hman360

I didn't know he was a minor and I normally ask but I must've forgotten to. @ SlickZero so since I have possession of it, I can use it?

SlickZero

To be honest, if it was me, no, I wouldn't use the art. I don't know what can happen from that. It would be nice to use it just so you can stick it to this person for wasting your time, but this might fall into another category of legal issues since you didn't pay for it, which gets more confusing since there is no binding contract even if you did pay for it. I don't know for sure, so I would ask your lawyer if you could.

Like I said, if it were me, I'd just put this behind me, and move on. Lesson learned.

hman360

Thanks guys for your opinions!

theCodeMonsters

What you gotta do is first of all.... The images that he created do not belong to him. They Belong to his parents. So go and talk to the parents about it first and see if you can get the rights to the images. If not. What you do is just take the images anyways, this is because he is a minor and can't sue you or anything. Also modify the images. That way it is a sealed deal that him nor his parents can do anything about it. But try to reason with them first.

PS: (Basic law states that when your a minor everything the minor "owns" is really owned by the parents.)

Cheers! (and sorry bout that. I know its frustrating)...

___________________________________________________________________________
I'm teaching an online programing course go here to find out more!!! http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=31505

BazookaTime

Have you confirmed he is a minor?

I would ask him to send you proof of age/identity. Maybe call his parents? I have six kids and I would be pretty pissed if they were entering into deals without talking with me

In the end, it will not be worth your time/money to hire an attorney. The best card you have is to reveal who he is if he refuses to work with you. A persons reputation is a pretty valuable asset.

hman360

@ Bazooka I already have an attorney, who I have had for years. But great suggestions you guys

And no I have not confirmed he is a minor but thats what he told me.

hman360

I can't call him or his parents since he lives way oversees from me. I am in NY, and he is far from here

theCodeMonsters

Then yes take the pictures. He cannot touch you especially if he's in a different country.

___________________________________________________________________________
I'm teaching an online programing course go here to find out more!!! http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=31505

hman360

@ theCodeMonsters Thanks for your tips! Also, for your signature, I recommend a line above the signature so people know its not part of the post. Like this:

___________________________________________________________________________
I'm teaching an online programing course go here to find out more!!! http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=31505

theCodeMonsters

Yeah I actually just made a post asking how people do that. So thanks!
___________________________________________________________________________
I'm teaching an online programing course go here to find out more!!! http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=31505

mu-kowAPPS

Why can't you call? It's really easy to call overseas. I live in Korea, my parents (in the US) call me from time to time. Its just 011-(country code)-(area code)-(rest of-number) my parents calling me looks like 011-82-10-xxxx-xxxx

hman360

but its not included in my telephone plan. Mine is only for calls in the Northeast US. Also, do you have to pay extra to call overseas?

mtingle

'In the contract it states neither member of the contract can void or opt out without the other's permission'

I'm no lawyer but that statement sounds like an unfair clause right there. If either party had a mind to, according to that clause, you could bind the other person FOR EVER! now that is just never gonna stick in a court of law.

Out of interest, what did you you give him if he gave you all the art? has there actually been any exchange? if he backs out before you have given him anything seems like it's actually him loosing on the deal here as you have the game and the art and he's got nothing.

Without knowing the whole deal it's hard to give a true insight. It would be important to know the other parties version of events also to give a fair opinion.

tenrdrmer

hman360, I know people are gonna freak out but you should never enter any contracts with a minor.

Basically you are hung out to dry yet again unless they decide to do the right thing. If a minor signs a contract it is void the second it is signed. I don't understand why if you have a lawyer you are even asking here or even more so why are you not including your lawyer when you are drawing up these contracts.

Secondly if you use the art You are setting yourself up to be sued since your contract was void as soon as it was signed.

hman360

@ tenrdrmer Thanks for the tips, I will clear up a few things while I am at it.

I NEVER enter contracts with minors intentionally. I ask almost everyone I work with. For some reason, I forgot to ask or something happened which made me get stuck with this minor. I sometimes let them work for me if it is like a one time pay job or their parent signs the contract. I originally only wanted a few images from him and then he asked to enter a contract so I decided to. That was probably the problem since I work with minors for 1 time payments.

I asked my lawyer and he replied with a reasonable idea that I do not wish to post on the forums until it is cleared up but I thought others may have some tips.

hman360

@mtingle, we weren't bound forever, only for the duration of the app in the app store. Also, I do have the art but he said I do not have rights, can I still use it in your opinion?

The contract was a share in the revenue for him in exchange for the images.

hman360

I also doubt he will answer on the forum to avoid exposing himself.

butterbean

@hman360

It's unfortunate that this happened to you, especially that this person is a minor AND lives overseas (from what I understood)

Given that this individual is overseas, and he's a minor, I would chock it up to a loss.

Many projects get scrapped for many reasons, and although it sounds like you've wasted a lot of time on this, at least it was only a few months. Many devs can work on stuff for a year, for it to get scrapped.

My advice, to save you time and money, would be to hire a graphics artist to do the images, and complete the project, and publish yourself...

Plus, you could ask for compensation, but even if you went to the trouble of doing so, how are you going to prove "x" amount of time was spent on your end? In the contract, did it state anywhere specifically if it was void, and agreed on both ends, that you would be compensated "x" amount depending on what phase you were in on the project?

Even if this person wasn't a minor, It would be very difficult to enforce a contract when this person is living overseas...unless there was some sort of mediation or agreement over the phone, and even then, you may have to get the parents involved, which you don't even know their situation.

Also, this person claim's to be a minor, but how do you know they didn't just say that to have an easy out?

If you do want to pursue this, it sounds like you will have to do a lot of research, and put a lot of time in, when if I were you, I'd just start on my own project, and publish it yourself...

Just my 2 cents!

hman360

Thanks to all for their "cents" and advise. I have made my decision and will share it with you all tomorrow after I let the person know.

DZTECH

Here is the official answer from my legal team because we ran into something like this to. This contract is not legally binder in anyway for two reasons.

A. He is a minor which by itself is a reason

B. When you sign a contract with someone over seas you have to mention that as well as a way to contact each party. You also must the international laws that bind this contract.
Technically the contract never happened. So you own the art as long as it was never sent to him then he could use it unless you can prove it is copyright infringement. And he owns his money.

DZTECH

hman i just pm'd you

hman360

DZ, he was making the art and I was paying the money, and he did send it to me.

DZTECH

ow he was making the art. cause i thought you were. have you paid him yet

DZTECH

art is his money is yours. don't use it or he can sue you through international laws. his work is protected

hman360

No, it was a revenue share. But, I have the images.

DZTECH

art is his money is yours. don't use it or he can sue you through international laws. his work is protected

micksolo

There's not much you can do in this situation. Either he screws you or you screw him.

But considering this is the second time this has happened to you I think maybe you need to look within yourself to work out why this is happening so it doesn't happen next time.