I have to agree with the last few posts... theres little to be gained by doing limited testing via the Sous-Chefs and the product will gain a much more thorough and wider testing by releasing it to all users.
The software is in beta for gods sake... so instead of doing limited testing, just release it so more bugs can be quickly identified and reported.
Lets face it... how many times have major bugs slipped through the Sous-chef testing period in previous builds? And the Sous Chefs openly acknowledge that much of the time they dont really get chance to give the test builds a thorough testing.
So either open up the testing to a wider group, or just put the test builds straight out to the community so they can actually help. Its not like were not already constantly testing and having to do bugfixing and workarounds as it is...
And yup... why on earth is there no previous build for users to fall back on.... its crazy, especially as users are tied to publishing through the GS servers... were completely at the mercy of GS, and this is one of the reasons why no serious Games Studio would consider using GS.
If were stuck having to publish our builds through external servers, then there should always be a previous stable version to fall back on, so that users arent locked out when things go wrong.
Given all the time in the world everything is possible. I won't chide the devs for a few bugs in their code. Personally I'm pleased with the strides taken by the dev team and the overall value the engine provides. That said, the method for releasing code to the public is one area GS still has yet to grow.
I would personally like to see something along the lines of an official build that's known to be stable and performing as intended, and then something along the line of 'nightly builds' similar to what Google does with Chrome Canary (http://tools.google.com/dlpage/chromesxs), or Firefox with their Nightly builds (http://nightly.mozilla.org/). A system like this allows the adventurous to test for the GS crew,while taking advantage of any new features that might be coming down the pipe, while allowing those trying to make a living a solid version to rely upon.
Icing on the cake would be if a user is able to have both versions (stable and experimental) installed on their Mac at the same time.
I do also echo the thoughts of previous users. Unless the GS team thinks the newest version of the code is potentially more 'broke', there's no harm in doing a wide release. Any remaining bugs will be found much more quickly.
Edit: For the experimental builds I talked about above, I personally think nightly builds would be a bit too much to ask. However pushing out something once a week, or when there is a new feature to test, seems a bit more reasonable.
You release a bug filled version to the public and then only give the mods the fixed version and make the rest of us wait several weeks!?! Do you realize how backwards that is?
BackUpAndDown said: You release a bug filled version to the public and then only give the mods the fixed version and make the rest of us wait several weeks!?! Do you realize how backwards that is?
I think they are trying to make sure that they do it right this time around. People need to review it before they release it. Period.
BobD said: If it wasn't already broke I would agree. But it is broken and people are sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for a fix.
Exactly. The damage has already been done. If they fixed the problems then they need to release it to the public as quickly as possible, not a week later.
It's great that they learnt from their mistakes but they need to wait until this disaster has been taken care of before they start putting that new knowledge into effect.
BackUpAndDown said: Exactly. The damage has already been done. If they fixed the problems then they need to release it to the public as quickly as possible, not a week later.
It's great that they learnt from their mistakes but they need to wait until this disaster has been taken care of before they start putting that new knowledge into effect.
If they released a fix and it was even worse, or had different problems, you would still be complaining. So, therefore, they need to make sure that it is actually a "fix" before it is released, and not a fix with even more bugs. Skipping the Sous Chef testing builds is what got them in this mess in the first place.
BlackbirdStudios said: If they released a fix and it was even worse, or had different problems, you would still be complaining. So, therefore, they need to make sure that it is actually a "fix" before it is released, and not a fix with even more bugs. Skipping the Sous Chef testing builds is what got them in this mess in the first place.
I agree to some extent. But part of me wonders why they can't release the new builds to everyone for testing, while still allowing publishing with the prior stable version . Then when all the bugs are worked out, release it as the new stable version. That is exactly what they do with the Sous Chefs, but it could be done on a wider scale. On the other hand, people would probably still complain about how long its taking them to fix any bugs and release as a new stable version. The other issue is possibly new super-secret features that they want to keep under wraps until ready to fully publish to the world. But this last build certainly does not fall into that category. Anyways, since I doubt they will ever do what google does (i.e., release unstable versions for testing to the public, while maintaining the last stable version for actual use), I think they should be encouraged to always run them by the Sous Chefs first to minimize the bugs at least before releasing. This latest release has been a fiasco because they did not at least do that.
Hopefully, its lesson learned for everyone, including all those that were pressuring them to release asap. Maybe next time they delay a little and use the Sous Chefs and maybe, just maybe, everyone can calm down about demanding the next build (not talking about a fix to 0.9.8, which is needed asap, but talking about 0.9.9).
dotsonj23 said: Anyways, since I doubt they will ever do what google does (i.e., release unstable versions for testing to the public, while maintaining the last stable version for actual use)
Thats also what Minecraft has also been doing and it has worked amazingly for the community. It's a solid business strategy that a lot of companies use. I don't understand why Gamesalad can't use it as well and stop shooting themselves in the foot.
Basseman said: I don't get why in the name of god there is a month between releases and when we get it NONE of the requested features are included but a buggy buggy release with more bugs and a simplyfied way of using change image and null textures.. How many are there working on Gs ?? I use Construct 2 from www.scirra.com and they release new features atleast ONCE a week and are very active at their forums and they are 2 man company.. Nothing groundbreaking has happen in the latest 4 releases of Gs, we only got more broken games and bugs.. Sounds strange to me !!!
When you are first starting out, it is easier to add features. When their program gets bigger and their fanbase expands, it will be longer.
Also thanks for posting that new engine, it looks pretty good.
Geezz.. Lot of whiners today. My game is delayed because of this to but I've used that to my advantage and made game changes and fixed more bugs. Sometimes in an age of 'instant everything' taking the time to do things right is the correct thing to do.
If they opened it up, that bug testing in 1/10th of the time wouldn't be true as you'd have all the people who think they have a bug when really, they just don't know what they're doing. Therefore, they'd have to go through all of these which delays just working on the actual bugs! However, i do agree, something has to change. It takes months with no features, we then get a buggy release, wait a while for a patch and we do it all over again! I understand this release changed how it works so we weren't ever gonna see much to excite us but in the past, we have been waiting a long time for minimal changes
Rob2 said: @Basseman This is the continual paradox... over 30 staff supposedly!!
It's the quality... not the quantity. I really hope some of the millions invested in GameSalad went to hiring talented and experienced programmers. 30 people fresh out of college that are on gizmodo and facebook all day aren't going to get the job done properly. I don't know who is on staff... but I've seen plenty of companies try to "save a buck" with staffing only to have it blow up in their face. I really hope the Gamesalad folks didn't do that.
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
beefy_clyro said: If they opened it up, that bug testing in 1/10th of the time wouldn't be true as you'd have all the people who think they have a bug when really, they just don't know what they're doing. Therefore, they'd have to go through all of these which delays just working on the actual bugs! However, i do agree, something has to change. It takes months with no features, we then get a buggy release, wait a while for a patch and we do it all over again! I understand this release changed how it works so we weren't ever gonna see much to excite us but in the past, we have been waiting a long time for minimal changes
Exactly. We really need more people in the Pre-Release but… They need to know what they are doing so we are not inundating GS's QA team with user errors instead of real bugs.
And GS needs to lighten up some on the thought that they need to keep everything to come a big secret.
i think you'll find on many occasions they don't even give a test build to mods which in turn lets me believe that we are the testers.once again game salad you have no respect for your users,but your hearts in the right place i suppose by listening to people and trying to get the engine fixed,even that turn out half arsed and you made no difference to it just offered an image loading option,which once again isn't actually dealing with the problem of game salad and the poor use of memory.yeah the ram doesn't build up straight away but soon as you have all the images loaded up as your playing the game once again the ram gets out of control,I'm sure you don't like hearing it but until you deal with the fundamental aspect of your product is really not that good,you can dress it with all the trimmings in the world,people will still be unhappy with your game engine.that being said i feel that it would be in my best interest to learn how to code instead of going through all the stress of a poor game engine and poor releases that break my game every time a new update is released.now you shouldn't sit there thinking what a twat let him go ,you should be thinking then maybe he does have a point. why have about five people that i know of left in the last week "rant over"
mtingle said: testing needs to be done by volunteers from the general community not just the mods. The general public will give very honest and robust testing in many configurations. They are working on real world projects that they know intimately and can spot things going awry. I can see now why these releases are not very robust with many flaws.
It is also vital to give the previous 'safe' builds for people to fall back to, to deny that is just not very professional IMO.
why not take something like wordpress as a roll model? it's free, community driven and pretty darn professional in its delivery. If you can draw the community into your development in a positive way they will reward the value of the product in many, many ways.
You solve lots of problems at once with this method a) better, less buggy builds and b) positive atmosphere in the forums because people can get involved if they want and feel a part of the process. win-win IMO
gamedivisionuk said: i think you'll find on many occasions they don't even give a test build to mods which in turn lets me believe that we are the testers.once again game salad you have no respect for your users,but your hearts in the right place i suppose by listening to people and trying to get the engine fixed,even that turn out half arsed and you made no difference to it just offered an image loading option,which once again isn't actually dealing with the problem of game salad and the poor use of memory.yeah the ram doesn't build up straight away but soon as you have all the images loaded up as your playing the game once again the ram gets out of control,I'm sure you don't like hearing it but until you deal with the fundamental aspect of your product is really not that good,you can dress it with all the trimmings in the world,people will still be unhappy with your game engine.that being said i feel that it would be in my best interest to learn how to code instead of going through all the stress of a poor game engine and poor releases that break my game every time a new update is released.now you shouldn't sit there thinking what a twat let him go ,you should be thinking then maybe he does have a point. why have about five people that i know of left in the last week "rant over"
This is part 1 of 2 parts focused on improving performance. This is beta software. You knew what you were getting and what the limitations are. Bugs in new releases are annoying but are generally fixed in patches, sure i'd love no load time but realistically, people don't know this before buying your game and GameSalad, as is, doesn't stop you making great games! If your game is great, people won't let a couple of seconds waiting for loading put them off too much. You can learn to code, I'm assuming you'll go to Corona but the grass isn't always greener on the other side, i downloaded their latest app of the week and guess what ... i saw that load circle plenty of times!
yeah im looking at corona but to tell you the truth if im gona sit there night after night and really take gaming serious then i need to learn unity,i dont asume moving to a different game engine will make my games any better,but what i do have is more control,and what will make my game better is the drive and determination,plus i never settle for second best,i am my worst critic,hence why my game has been in development for 8 months,even if i only made £2,its the quality not the quantity that counts.and i refuse to release something second best.dont get me wrong GS is great for small titles.and to bang something quick.
beefy_clyro said: This is part 1 of 2 parts focused on improving performance. This is beta software. You knew what you were getting and what the limitations are. Bugs in new releases are annoying but are generally fixed in patches, sure i'd love no load time but realistically, people don't know this before buying your game and GameSalad, as is, doesn't stop you making great games! If your game is great, people won't let a couple of seconds waiting for loading put them off too much. You can learn to code, I'm assuming you'll go to Corona but the grass isn't always greener on the other side, i downloaded their latest app of the week and guess what ... i saw that load circle plenty of times!
ok fair enough this is part one but when part two is out i will quote you on this,because i know already it will be a let down already.you just watch and see,if im wrong i'll eat my hat.
beefy_clyro said: This is part 1 of 2 parts focused on improving performance. This is beta software. You knew what you were getting and what the limitations are. Bugs in new releases are annoying but are generally fixed in patches, sure i'd love no load time but realistically, people don't know this before buying your game and GameSalad, as is, doesn't stop you making great games! If your game is great, people won't let a couple of seconds waiting for loading put them off too much. You can learn to code, I'm assuming you'll go to Corona but the grass isn't always greener on the other side, i downloaded their latest app of the week and guess what ... i saw that load circle plenty of times!
gamedivisionuk said: yeah im looking at corona but to tell you the truth if im gona sit there night after night and really take gaming serious then i need to learn unity,i dont asume moving to a different game engine will make my games any better,but what i do have is more control,and what will make my game better is the drive and determination,plus i never settle for second best,i am my worst critic,hence why my game has been in development for 8 months,even if i only made £2,its the quality not the quantity that counts.and i refuse to release something second best.dont get me wrong GS is great for small titles.and to bang something quick.
I like what you stand for in striving for the best etc but this dont sit with me right;
"GS is great for small titles.and to bang something quick"
Bumps Secret of Grisly Manor Zombie Drop Puzzle Dozer Spooky Hoofs etc etc
Hardly small titles and they have had good to huge success coming from GS.
gamedivisionuk said: ok fair enough this is part one but when part two is out i will quote you on this,because i know already it will be a let down already.you just watch and see,if im wrong i'll eat my hat.
Maybe not but if its an improvement then its a step in the right direction. They havent touched their engine in ages, i wasn't expecting a huge performance from one or two updates, but at least work has started in rectifying the problem.
Good Luck with your conquest in Unity, be sure to let us know so we can check it out, i was following the progress previously when you were updating your thread.
I agree GS needs improving and with how they do things as well but it seems they can't win ... Give features and get people bitching that they need to stop that and concentrate on performance, or, start to address performance and have people bitch that in 1 update their games aren't loading instantly and still complain at lack of features.
thanks for just not calling me a dick because i strive for better.i do believe its all about what you put in,i've already started coding my next project in unity javascript,its gona be a 3d cross car racer buggy formula 1 rally car the hole sha bang,im digging out my electric guitar for some heavy metal music and some drum and bass for the digital.plus ill be hiring sparky for some tracks.but peace to all
beefy_clyro said: I like what you stand for in striving for the best etc but this dont sit with me right;
"GS is great for small titles.and to bang something quick"
Bumps Secret of Grisly Manor Zombie Drop Puzzle Dozer Spooky Hoofs etc etc
Hardly small titles and they have had good to huge success coming from GS.
Maybe not but if its an improvement then its a step in the right direction. They havent touched their engine in ages, i wasn't expecting a huge performance from one or two updates, but at least work has started in rectifying the problem.
Good Luck with your conquest in Unity, be sure to let us know so we can check it out, i was following the progress previously when you were updating your thread.
I agree GS needs improving and with how they do things as well but it seems they can't win ... Give features and get people bitching that they need to stop that and concentrate on performance, or, start to address performance and have people bitch that in 1 update their games aren't loading instantly and still complain at lack of features.
gamedivisionuk said: i think you'll find on many occasions they don't even give a test build to mods which in turn lets me believe that we are the testers.once again game salad you have no respect for your users,but your hearts in the right place i suppose by listening to people and trying to get the engine fixed,even that turn out half arsed and you made no difference to it just offered an image loading option,which once again isn't actually dealing with the problem of game salad and the poor use of memory.yeah the ram doesn't build up straight away but soon as you have all the images loaded up as your playing the game once again the ram gets out of control,I'm sure you don't like hearing it but until you deal with the fundamental aspect of your product is really not that good,you can dress it with all the trimmings in the world,people will still be unhappy with your game engine.that being said i feel that it would be in my best interest to learn how to code instead of going through all the stress of a poor game engine and poor releases that break my game every time a new update is released.now you shouldn't sit there thinking what a twat let him go ,you should be thinking then maybe he does have a point. why have about five people that i know of left in the last week "rant over"
""""" I'm sure you don't like hearing it but until you deal with the fundamental aspect of your product is really not that good,you can dress it with all the trimmings in the world,people will still be unhappy with your game engine. "'"""""""
What he just said basically sums up what all my Camaro and concrete foundation metaphors were talking about.
You need a good solid running engine. Once you have that. You can then show up with trimming and test engine performance with these new trimmings and tweak and peak from there. You dont go out and buy stereos and speaking and spoilers and paint and trim and leather seats. Attach them to the car and then work on the engine. Make sure it can get down the road first. If not..... you got a sexy car that cant go anywhere.
There's a big bug with using the mailto url in the OpenURL behavior.
This is a big stupid bug that could have been avoided with a little more effort in testing the GS creator.
Also the in-app browser is working like !@#$%. Before if I used a itms-apps: link it would have gone directly to the AppStore app, now it first open the in-app browser and then redirect to the AppStore, after returning to the app the white in-app browser page is still there and the user has to close it to return where it was. Also it doesn't have some indicator that it is loading something, on slow connections it would seems that it crashed.
Please fix the mailto bug ASAP. Then eliminate the in-app browser or at least leave the choice to use it or not to the developer.
k. i'm gonna skip this version all together (well at least in my head ) so when is 9.9 coming at least i've made my money back for the pro membership and some without doing anything for the past few month.. until things starts to happen again as they have 2 updates ago i'll just idol and bank on my app made a few versions ago and focus on my day time job.
sorry im not the most articulate person in the world,but you have nailed it.
Jeffnichols said: """"" I'm sure you don't like hearing it but until you deal with the fundamental aspect of your product is really not that good,you can dress it with all the trimmings in the world,people will still be unhappy with your game engine. "'"""""""
What he just said basically sums up what all my Camaro and concrete foundation metaphors were talking about.
You need a good solid running engine. Once you have that. You can then show up with trimming and test engine performance with these new trimmings and tweak and peak from there. You dont go out and buy stereos and speaking and spoilers and paint and trim and leather seats. Attach them to the car and then work on the engine. Make sure it can get down the road first. If not..... you got a sexy car that cant go anywhere.
Comments
The software is in beta for gods sake... so instead of doing limited testing, just release it so more bugs can be quickly identified and reported.
Lets face it... how many times have major bugs slipped through the Sous-chef testing period in previous builds? And the Sous Chefs openly acknowledge that much of the time they dont really get chance to give the test builds a thorough testing.
So either open up the testing to a wider group, or just put the test builds straight out to the community so they can actually help. Its not like were not already constantly testing and having to do bugfixing and workarounds as it is...
And yup... why on earth is there no previous build for users to fall back on.... its crazy, especially as users are tied to publishing through the GS servers... were completely at the mercy of GS, and this is one of the reasons why no serious Games Studio would consider using GS.
If were stuck having to publish our builds through external servers, then there should always be a previous stable version to fall back on, so that users arent locked out when things go wrong.
I would personally like to see something along the lines of an official build that's known to be stable and performing as intended, and then something along the line of 'nightly builds' similar to what Google does with Chrome Canary (http://tools.google.com/dlpage/chromesxs), or Firefox with their Nightly builds (http://nightly.mozilla.org/). A system like this allows the adventurous to test for the GS crew,while taking advantage of any new features that might be coming down the pipe, while allowing those trying to make a living a solid version to rely upon.
Icing on the cake would be if a user is able to have both versions (stable and experimental) installed on their Mac at the same time.
I do also echo the thoughts of previous users. Unless the GS team thinks the newest version of the code is potentially more 'broke', there's no harm in doing a wide release. Any remaining bugs will be found much more quickly.
Edit:
For the experimental builds I talked about above, I personally think nightly builds would be a bit too much to ask. However pushing out something once a week, or when there is a new feature to test, seems a bit more reasonable.
It's great that they learnt from their mistakes but they need to wait until this disaster has been taken care of before they start putting that new knowledge into effect.
Hopefully, its lesson learned for everyone, including all those that were pressuring them to release asap. Maybe next time they delay a little and use the Sous Chefs and maybe, just maybe, everyone can calm down about demanding the next build (not talking about a fix to 0.9.8, which is needed asap, but talking about 0.9.9).
This is the continual paradox... over 30 staff supposedly!!
Also thanks for posting that new engine, it looks pretty good.
And GS needs to lighten up some on the thought that they need to keep everything to come a big secret.
You solve lots of problems at once with this method a) better, less buggy builds and b) positive atmosphere in the forums because people can get involved if they want and feel a part of the process. win-win IMO
"GS is great for small titles.and to bang something quick"
Bumps
Secret of Grisly Manor
Zombie Drop
Puzzle Dozer
Spooky Hoofs
etc etc
Hardly small titles and they have had good to huge success coming from GS. Maybe not but if its an improvement then its a step in the right direction. They havent touched their engine in ages, i wasn't expecting a huge performance from one or two updates, but at least work has started in rectifying the problem.
Good Luck with your conquest in Unity, be sure to let us know so we can check it out, i was following the progress previously when you were updating your thread.
I agree GS needs improving and with how they do things as well but it seems they can't win ... Give features and get people bitching that they need to stop that and concentrate on performance, or, start to address performance and have people bitch that in 1 update their games aren't loading instantly and still complain at lack of features.
What he just said basically sums up what all my Camaro and concrete foundation metaphors were talking about.
You need a good solid running engine. Once you have that. You can then show up with trimming and test engine performance with these new trimmings and tweak and peak from there. You dont go out and buy stereos and speaking and spoilers and paint and trim and leather seats. Attach them to the car and then work on the engine. Make sure it can get down the road first. If not..... you got a sexy car that cant go anywhere.
This is a big stupid bug that could have been avoided with a little more effort in testing the GS creator.
Also the in-app browser is working like !@#$%. Before if I used a itms-apps: link it would have gone directly to the AppStore app, now it first open the in-app browser and then redirect to the AppStore, after returning to the app the white in-app browser page is still there and the user has to close it to return where it was. Also it doesn't have some indicator that it is loading something, on slow connections it would seems that it crashed.
Please fix the mailto bug ASAP. Then eliminate the in-app browser or at least leave the choice to use it or not to the developer.
________________________________
【ツ】iPhone Icon Pack (compatible with DBA Icon Creator) 【ツ】 - 【ツ】Graphic Pack【ツ】
Free GS demo: High score simple and advanced; Game Center; App Rating System; Custom Font Score and Countdown; Advanced Snap to Grid