Questions about my job working with GameSalad.... help!

PixelPun

So I have a question for everyone out there... and Im curious what they would do in this situation. I got a job at a local printing company that is looking to get into the interactive book market. They hired me here because I am a graphic designer and I have a back ground in printing. I started the job in January and I am currently working on building an interactive book with GS for a client. After this book is finished the owner wants me to start work on a public domain fairy tale story to publish to the iPad... Something close to the Alice in Wonderland story on iPad now....

Now here is my question... I am the only one working on this project and I am doing everything sound, art, programming.... While I am grateful to have a job, it would suck to make an app that doubles or triples what I make in a year and I see none of that... What would your ask for if you where in this situation? The owner has been looking to start new business... so maybe I could ask to be cut in on a totally new business and be part owner? what do you think?

Thanks
Rob

RThurman

This is just my opinion, but I am afraid you are already in deep water!

If you are working for a company and as part of your job you create a work -- the company owns it. If they are supplying you the time and resources, the company owns it. Even if they only explain what they want you to create and you publish it behind their backs, the company can still claim it.

Whenever you and an employer sit down and have a conversation, the company can claim ownership of any resulting product. (Especially if you are using their computers, software, or even any art that they own -- even though you created the art.)

My advice would be to have a clearly outlined contractual arrangement already in place before you even allow a conversation to happen between you and your employer. (Otherwise the understood contract is "We tell you what to make, and you make it. And we claim all rights to the product that you make. In return we will compensate you at the agreed hourly rate for your labors."

I would further advise that if you do _not_ create the work that you have already discussed with your employer (and may already have an implied contract in place), that you never create anything that even remotely resembles the product that you and your employer have discussed.

It is very difficult to be an indie developer and an employee for the same kind of labor/product. Indie development is a whole different beast than being an employee. And it is rare to be able to have both the benefits of wage-based employment and the benefits of independent contractual work (with the same company).

Once again, this is all opinion. I will be curious to see what others' opinions are.

Hope this helps!
RThurman

simo103

@PixelPun .. agree 1000% with RThurman .... I understand your thoughts but a business needs to double or triple the cost of the products they make ... there's overhead like the office, equipment, support staff, accounts etc .. your salary is not the cost of the product you produce. Best case I would think is you make products in your own time and publish under your own name and make them different enough to not compete directly with your real job. Lastly, businesses are hard, jumping in with your new boss on a new company has danger written all over it ... things get tough, money dries up ... how you and he react to the different pressures you don't know. My advice .... your own time/your own product, your own money. Hope that helps.

PixelPun

The company is small say about 8 people work here. The owner has expressed wanting to start new businesses... he spent a lot of money trying to make a record label... He definitely has the money to back it. I guess it was more of a if this ebook does make money then I don't want to leave him high and dry... because he is a friend of sorts (I knew him before he hired me). I know I could do these ebook on my own and I am very close to publishing my first game on iPad... I guess my thought is... would it be unreasonable to ask him (if the book was successful) to back a interactive book publishing company that was run and owned by me. Let say he backed it and I was majority owner with him owning the rest. His backing would be in the form of my salary for the first year or so and splitting the profit from the books. The way I see it it's either that or I go make them on my own... because nobody at this place has my skill set to do it and he definitely is in a unique position to help. I've been at this job for about a month and a half and I have worked on ebooks say... 85% of the time. It would just suck to make something that made a lot of money.. and I'm making low end graphic design salary... even though I love what I am doing here.

As far as equipment and office space I am pretty we could get that because we are moving to a new bigger building...

The_Gamesalad_Guru

As a person who has hired employees and fired employees, I can say you're in a pickle. I do have a question before I give advice. Were you hired under the terms of making electronic media or other things and the electronic media kinda evolved? Although, it can't hurt to have a conversation with him about a business proposal as opportunities only sometimes come once in a lifetime and you don't get anywhere in life being risk adverse. My instinct tells me he might not view you that way, as a possible partner, so tread lightly when you approach him. Other than that you have to decide if you like the job or you're willing to find another job and be an independent developer. When you have money you can always hire another person so he may not see you as valuable even though you are. So really the power is yours to decide what's best for your life.

PixelPun

Yeah I was hired to do graphic design, They talked about wanting to get into ebooks... but nothing was nailed down. I mean realistically I figure I can do this for a year develop my games and do a ebook on the side.. I think it's a long shot for an ebook to make a lot of money... but you never know. I think the owner is the type of guy that wouldn't leave me out in the cold if something I solely made, made some substantial profits... but I have to wait and see on that.. I guess in the mean time its cool because I am learning sooo much and working with GS all week... so it is speeding up my game designing at home also.

quantumsheep

I would look at your contract again.

I asked, specifically, if I could continue making my own iPhone games in the last two jobs I was at.

Essentially, as long as you're not using your company's tools, or take ideas from them, then what you do in you spare time should be yours.

I worked on Attack of the Kraken in my spare time while working for two different companies. And last year I went to an interview at an iPhone developer and asked if I could make my own iPhone games in my spare time. And they were fine with that.

So you could ask your boss if he'd mind you working on personal projects in your spare time. If he's a friend, I'm sure he'll be fine with it.

As to your feeling of making something that could be big... Well, this is how the world works I'm afraid. I worked on two projects for Disney and got paid a flat fee to do that. I certainly never saw a cut of the profits as I worked for a development company who'd negotiated a contract with Disney.

I've no idea if they got a bonus or anything or a % or sales as I was not privy to what the contract was. I was just a guy, doing a job, and getting paid for it.

On a personal level, I can certainly sympathise with how you feel. In one company I worked for, we were encouraged to formally give forward any ideas for future games. We were offered 5% of any income if our games were selected.

Some people said 'yeah, why not'. But most people at the company did not participate and the scheme was shut down. Because if your idea makes the company millions, getting 5% back, while nice, just seems very unfair.

I spoke to the guy that set up the scheme and he wouldn't budge on the 5%, but I told him he'd get a lot of lacklustre ideas as most people would hold back their 'big idea' for themselves.

Just my thoughts and experience!

QS :D

PixelPun

Thanks @quantumsheep... Yeah I feel like its a long shot with the ebooks anyhow but I want to be positive about it and hope that something I do will get noticed and be great. As far as a contract goes I do not have one... I never signed anything when I started on here... everything is super laid back... (lol im at work while writing these posts.) I just wanted to have some kind of plan in place for if something like that did happen. I mean the owner has been saying that print is dying and he really wants to find something else to make money with...

EatingMyHat

When you get a job you are selling your skills to the company. It you do something for the company as part of your job, you do not have any ownership on it. Your employer will pay you your salary regardless if the App will sell or not, looks like you are learning GS on his nickel, he came up with the App idea and he is taking all the risks - why do you feel that you deserve a share? The fact is that many companies will agree to some bonus or share if a product is highly successful, but to automatically assume that you are entitle to it for basically doing what you are paid for, is wrong.

Just keep in mind that even if you will not get a piece of the action and the app will sell in millions, you will have something very valuable to put on your resume and a real start of a career.

---

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fzeed

OMG i am in the total opposite position. I have been in high-end commercial printing for over 20 years. My hobby has been programming ever since i was a kid. I'm highly proficient in Java/PHP/VB/CSS/HTML and others. I have written all kinds of BAT files, custom scripts, tons of cold-fusion, lots of database stuff. But they won't even look at any apps i make!!!! We have clients that want us to print their stuff PLUS create apps with the printed material. I have made demos for them in Corona and GS. uggggg they don't want to bother looking at them, so our solution is to take the customers supplied PDF and use Flash. And its hosted on a specific server so you need web access to see it, and its very slow. ugggg again!

The_Gamesalad_Guru

@eatingmyhat be care full with truthful comments like that you might become enemy number two around here....signed enemy number one....lol

ozboybrian

If you know something has potential, do it yourself.
If you're happy watching someone else become a millionaire. Then watch them become a millionaire lol.
If it's his idea not yours I guess... That's it . Depends on you wanna be. The employee, or the boss.

I hope to be the boss

- if you think your skills are valued. I agree, try offer a deal.

RP

That is a sucky situation. I've had something similar in past.

The best thing to do is go over your contract and renegotiate if possible. If you are doing all the work and that was not what you originally signed on to do, you are being taken advantage of. Sometimes you got to bite the bullet and learn from it. If you feel you can do this independently and have the resources (hardware, software etc.), make a graceful exit upon completion and get your own thing going.

Yeah, selling yourself and your skills can leave you wide open to your employer, even when you aren't hired on to do those job functions. At one of my old employers, some people used to design sites and osx apps on the side at work when they had breaks. When the company found out, guess who owned it now? Yup, the stuff was taken away and is now property of the company.

Good luck!

PixelPun

Well I finished the first book... its a specialty book for a client but I'm not sure when we are releasing it... Also @eatingmyhat I don't think the owner has to give me anything really.. But at the same time I'm the only one here that knows how to do this, My question more was would it be dumb to ask him to partner up with me or not.. Cause with out me he would not be doing this stuff. These books are 100% created by me... so I could just do them on my own.

Thanks for all the comments guys

EatingMyHat

@PixelPun I don't you're dumb to ask, worst thing he will say no... however you should also think if you will accept an answer like "Sure! but since we share the prize, we need to share the cost, so I'll cut your salary by 50%" - which is also a valid answer given your question.

Just make sure to come with a positive attitude about doing something great together and not in a 'you owe me' attitude and things will be just fine

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tenrdrmer

This is a very tricky area to be in to be honest. What I do know for sure. If you are in the US. Anything you create using company property or while you are on company time belongs 100% to the company. Like it or not. doesn't matter if its a million dollar idea. they own it.

some companies may have you even sign a non-compete. You need to have the conversation with your employer about hat they are ok with. If they are ok with you doing your own personal stuff then thats great but you have to make 100% sure you never create something that was ever discussed in a meeting or even in passing at work. they could easily claim you stole a company idea or concept. you discussed it on their time therefore they own it.

But if your going to ask you need to ask now. not after its made millions. And what ever you guys agree on you need to have that agreement in writing.