Forums Compromised

The_Gamesalad_Guru

I'm very concerned with the opinion leaders and those who wield influence and power here on the forums. It seems some moderators have vested monetary interest in external marketplaces who sell GS merchandise and assets. We've been here before and now here we are again but this time the reorganization of influence, since T-shirt left, has widened. Some members are seeking a power grab at the expense of the truly independent minded among us. Those who are new to GS may not understand the history around here so please bear with me. For me I'm not against conducting business, hell I'm a shark business guy, but when you can't control yourself and it costs the rest of us to lose features, it pisses me off. If you really cared about this community you wouldn't pull these kind of stunts for a quick buck. Now that signatures are gone I see the early signs of avatar abuse. Enough already! I'm not backing down one bit on this, I will take the hits to represent the independent minded on these forums. Trust me when I say, "You have no idea how thick my skin can be!"

jamie_c

Is this in reference to the recent sale/acquisition gshelper or something else?

The_Gamesalad_Guru

It is in reference to the forums as a whole as more than one entity was involved as well as many moderators and members. There is pleanty of blame to go around, just follow the money. People think they are clever but as they say, "Some play checkers others play chess."

RP

Yups, I think this is what we witnessed recently.

Editing threads to ones own advantage, abuse of moderation privileges, conflicting interests AND disregard of rules they are supposed to enforce

famekrafts

Lol Had no idea about all this, everyone has been helpful till now.

LiquidGameworks

Part of the problem I think is that GS hasn't done enough to make its marketplace relevant, which is causing an opening for other business models. I'll also admit, I intended to make use of signatures to promote my own website and future templates, so you may view me as part of the problem.

@fryingbaconstudios You've presented us a situation that you find troubling, but it doesn't appear that you've offered a potential solution. As a former debate coach, I always taught that if you leave an open question with no answers, you'll lose control of that which you are trying to change. So, as I'm also unhappy with the current situation, lets talk potential solutions.

The signatures issue arose because two groups had multiple users featuring identical signatures (i.e., advertising). One group has many members, the other paid users to counter the effect of the first group.

The other issue you have, if I'm reading you correctly, is that you don't like that moderators also have business interests, in that there is the potential for misuse of the moderator role.

So, potential solutions (and I have yet decided to advocate any of these):

Forum signatures may only contain links to websites you personally own
Avatars may not include web links or reference them
Something to do with moderators, though, this is tricky, as some of our best moderators are also able to devote this time because of their working GS related businesses.
And I'm sure there is more

famekrafts

I think if gs gives its marketplace more relevance the other business model needs to be stopped here or at least restricted to particular forum. Problem every new thread is shown in the main community pages, instead of categorizing them separately.

Check out forums like a zbrush community, they have thousands of users and they have categorised it well. The main page show each category displaying thier new posts rather than every new post of different categories cramped together in one page.

So if gs categories the main forum page, advertising of any sort can be restricted to a particular category forum.

Also in long run they should think about making their marketplace the main business here. I used to publish books through create space. For first few years they allowed every editor and designer to work through forums and take members to their business sites, but facing similar problem like what seems to be starting here, they have completely blocked any kind of personal promotion.

This also warrants that marketplace business will boom. Maybe it is early to do this now, but maybe in a year or two, gs should ban all kind of self promotion.

The_Gamesalad_Guru

That was my intent, to expose and air the problem. I don't intend to force my will on gamesalad. There are clear rules on advertising and places for this, ie the useful links sticky SSS set up the last time things got out of hand but for some that is not enough. I follow the rules and I expect others to as well. Do I believe with human nature, money and influence can lead to conflicted interests? I've made enough trips around the sun to know the answer to that is hell yes. As to the moderators, I seem to be able to assist around here and make videos without shilling anything. I'm not top seven in points because I'm not helpful. I just think it's important for people to be informed of the whole truth and they can judge for themselves what a person's motivation is for being helpful. I cast no accusations on anyone's character but people should know all the facts and decide. I made the decision to sell my things through gamesalad marketplace, yes it's not perfect but if the really talented all sold their stuff on there it would be more of a benefit to the community and help GS revenue and keep it going. I'm just one man with one opinion, I believe people need to make up their own minds.

PBEmpire

i agree. Firstly i think what gamesalad MUST DO is to make a forum page to allow others to showcase works of the forums. In my opinion they should improve the marketplace to showcase templates and stuff. it will benefit the community alot. This may also protect the works of people as recent theft business is becoming worrying.

dmilinovichiii

I have no problem personally with people using signatures for advertising, whether for their own products or someone else's. My complaint is that I often see threads closed or deleted that I don't believe should be. I think there should be a system where moderators mark threads for GameSalad to personally close or delete. I believe there should also be guidelines for when a thread is to be closed. I don't personally think that "This is a pointless, endless, discussion", is a good enough excuse to close a thread. It certainly doesn't hurt to leave the thread alone if it is indeed "pointless" and "leading nowhere". Has anyone else noticed this or am I the only one?

capitalcarnage

The Best and only solution i see, Is adding Moderators to Moderate the Moderators, more people in the chain of command works, we see it time and time again in our Governments.

The_Gamesalad_Guru

@capitlalcarnage just like how are governments take liberty with their power too...LOL. Power to the people! >-

LeonardDeveloper

I quite agree with the post @fryingbaconstudios
I think to have the info about that specific marketplace up there... But it crosses the border to put ADS up on the post

However without some of these people... We wouldnt be here at all, These tutorials are the very ones that started me off...
I run a marketplace myself, I'm not even allowed discuss products not a mind to say an ad!... So maybe ads cross the border alright...

Then again, I suppose what are we without a little bit of activity in that thread? - I'm all for to some extent being able to show your product off, But the rule is no advertising for third party sites (Unfortunately - If people didn't go mad with advertising it would be okay) but we must comply with that rule.....

I have to say - So you know its unfair to blame a "General" - everybody, when others have made an effort @SaladStraightShooter has been doing a clerical good job on this in regards to keeping the rules the same for everyone

Elfizm

@LeonardDeveloper

No offence i hope is taken from this I am just stating some opinion and facts.

But you just mentioned before that you agree and that you run a market place and said the rule is no third party sites.

But a lot of the questions and discussions i read lately have been about your new market site. More than one thread has been made about it disguised with Freebies and after the end of a lot of your post is: check out our new market site. The person just wants help not another way to spend thier money.

I even read some one W.I.P and here you are again promoting your website and asking to sell his templates of games on your site.
And then you come here and say if people didn't go mad with advertising it may be ok. I understand you been here a while and just started a new market place but maybe you need to take a look in the mirror before you start blaming people.

I have been reading the forums for almost two years now and notice that people think that they are better than everyone. It's great to mention your new site which is amazing but the end result is stop marketing it on other people threads.

Just some things I have notice over the couple of months

All the best
Elfizm

gyroscope

I think there's the danger this could all get out of proportion... some people might think they are better than everyone else, as @Elfizm thinks they do, but these are rare, I'm certain; the majority of members, moderators or not, help out or involve themselves in Forums discussions with good humour, politeness, helpfullness, etc, etc.

And some people make GameSalad tutorials to help out without any thoughts of making money, others do the same, but as part of a way to introduce assets they want to sell to game-makers; and which game-makers will buy if they want to. Whether a member is also a moderator or not, either might want to make money. And what's wrong with that?

So some of the latter group have bent or broken the rules concerning advertising third party services, here on the GS Forums, obviously wrong, and it's been dealt with (no blatant threads or advertising in signatures, etc).

So there's bound to be a few more hiccups along the way, but things get dealt with and off we go again on our merry way... ;-)

LeonardDeveloper

@elfizm
While I regard your opinion as another opinion on this forum - If you check my thread, the thread is about freebies from my marketplace, "Saying check out my site - where freebies are concerned' is okay, if you'd like to double check this read the rules - http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/42740/welcome-to-the-gamesalad-forum-rules-and-guidelines-of-the-community#latest
Please don't share blame when your not even familiar with the rules yourself...

Second of all if you read that persons W.I.P ( @oskardeveloper) Its him asking me questions about his template submissions, I'm not to blame for that so again before you go around sharing the blame - Get your facts right

And actually AGAIN if you checked your facts and actually read my post I didn't blame anyone specifically,

didn't go mad with advertising it may be ok

Before we had a "no third party advertising rule" people went mad with it and abused it, What I was saying is that it would have been okay if people "Didn't go mad with it"/"Abuse it", Please don't take things out of context

It's great to mention your new site which is amazing but the end result is stop marketing it on other people threads.

While I appreciate your opinion on this, I have only marketed on one third party thread - and that has been sorted out after a long discussion with this forums community manager so DONT blow things out of proportion

Just to tackle this again

I even read some one W.I.P and here you are again promoting your website and asking to sell his templates of games on your site.

This is a pure LIE... Something that has been taking out of context/words twisted If you bothered to read that thread it was HIM asking ME about his submissions... I don't tolerate liars...

I don't come here to market my new market, I've been using GS for almost 2 yrs, I'm a loyal pro member who continues to use the software as its right for me... I don't appreciate things being blown out of proportion, while some of your facts may have some truth in them - lets keep things down to earth,
Thanks,

EDIT
Awh Shucks... Seven agrees... I didn't know I was that loved

The_Gamesalad_Guru

Let's not forget tshirt was paid by Gamesalad to do the cookbook videos so let's not pretend this is mother Teresa's orphanage for the poor okay. Follow the money as they say so I have. Also, as in the past these things get attention by people willing to speak up and be willing to risk the wrath of other members as I have personally faced in the past. It's all fine around here if you play the "go along get along game" but if you dare question, you're called a problem. That is so backwards I don't know where to begin.

capitalcarnage

I know @fryingbaconstudios neither wants or needs to be patted on the back for starting this discussion but.... I'm patting anyways.

I cant add anymore but feel this post needs the bumpage so that it doesn't just drop off the post cliff, like every other post raising similar issues in the past.

gyroscope

Still not getting it....TSB was paid by GS for tutorials, (so what? Good on him; he made/makes some of the best tutorials around and set the president for all others, in my opinion; apart from the fact he helped thousands of people); some people make them to help out off their own back for no money consideration; others make them as lead-ins for assets site; some make templates and help GameSalad files for free; others make them to sell them; some people buy assets from the Marketplace; some make them to sell via the Marketplace; some others buy or sell them from other similar sites not affiliated with GS...

Forum abuse of etiquette, rules and regulations aside (whether a moderator or not; trying to make money (in a fair way); or not)..... where is the problem? There isn't one.

@FryingBaconStudios "If you dare question there is a problem" Dave, personally I've not come across that concern in the almost three years I've been around the Forums....

The_Gamesalad_Guru

@gyroscope would you care to see the emails? I saved them all. Well this is it for me on this topic. I expected the usual response from the powers that be, "nothing to see here folks, move along." Typical in life. The luxury of power and influence.

jonmulcahy

I agree that there is a fine line when you have moderators responsible for policing the no advertising policy that have their own services that could be considered a competitor.

I think all services should be only allowed in the services forum, including freebies, templates, all of it, and it should be governed by the same rules.

I remember when 90% of the posts here were people showcasing the cool stuff they created and shared the projects. It's gone way downhill with people trying to make a buck by stealing projects and reselling templates.

There is no quick fix, but I think there should be course corrections every so often based on immunity feedback. Maybe a quarterly poll on the state of the forums or something.

RP

I don't know it's pretty clear to me.
Just as when I worked for Apple I could not produce my own projects utilizing trade practices resulting in products that benefit me, that's why I left to do my own thing. If I need to go into detail I will.

The same thing goes with the various international companies I produced for. I never once used their names for capital gain, only reference.

Conflict of interest is a huge thing, except to those whom think that little business don't fit the bill, which is not true. Small or individual business will fall before big buisiness does.

I think anyone with business know-how will know better, if not, start studying. The lack of business ethics displayed is mind numbing. It's not a playground. People need to cut this mantality of unbalanced quid pro quo, hook a brotha up, or everyone is a beginner.
Get serious.

IsabelleK

tshirtbooth left? Did I miss something?

jonmulcahy

tshirtbooth left? Did I miss something?

Haha. Yea over the summer I think, he went back to making tshirts. I wouldn't be surprised I'd he pops back in sometime in the future though.

gyroscope

@gyroscope would you care to see the emails? I saved them all. Well this is it for me on this topic. I expected the usual response from the powers that be, "nothing to see here folks, move along." Typical in life. The luxury of power and influence.

@FryingBaconStudios

Hey, Dave, just the fact that I'm a moderator doesn't make me part of any "powers that be". As you probably know, moderators are chosen by GS HQ, and if we agree, we go by the moderator's rules to moderate the Forums; that's it.

As a moderator, I don't count myself any better/more knowledgable than another member who's not a moderator and I'm certain the majority of all the other moderators think the same.... so there's no power/influence gained or given as such, in the way you insinuate... (But if there IS extra power and luxury given to moderators, I've missed out.... hey, GS HQ, where's mine?!!! :-)) (Joke)

I haven't seen your emails to fully understand why you're so upset; so my comments can only be based on your comments and others here in this thread....and I gave my opinion, based on that, that I can't see the problem....

But hey, if you've a grievance that you think can be resolved via a thread, then that's fine, do carry on...maybe explain a bit more about these emails you've received; see if we can sort it somehow....or perhaps I'm just a bit slow here and not getting it...

maxbeaumont

I don't think he really left as much as he can't post as often as he used to because of the tshirt stuff. He's commented and been active this month though, and like Jon said, I wouldn't be surprised if he came back to this later down the road.

Cheers
Max

The_Gamesalad_Guru

I have emails going back to the last time things got out of hand. Do you think people come at you in front of everyone? Nah they are smarter than that. I have no desire to revisit history and deflect from the here and now but if you doubt my word I will send them to you to keep in confidence. Plus I am in no way implicating all monitors and/or members.

DimensionGames

I remember when 90% of the posts here were people showcasing the cool stuff they created and shared the projects. It's gone way downhill with people trying to make a buck by stealing projects and reselling templates.

This is what I miss about the forums, they used to be very friendly and it was really exciting watch all the projects develop! All the users from 2/3 years ago have mainly left

I don't really know what has happened in regards to @FryingBaconStudios but I agree that it's sad to see people trying cheap tricks etc. Certainly not as bad as when everyone just bumped their templates EVERY day or so...

I don't think he really left as much as he can't post as often as he used to because of the tshirt stuff. He's commented and been active this month though, and like Jon said, I wouldn't be surprised if he came back to this later down the road.

I thought he had moved on from GameSalad? Though I have a feeling someone said he was coming back so this could be completely outdated http://www.scirra.com/forum/topic59146_page1.html

LeonardDeveloper

Yup, i think he moved to try out scirra's construct 2... I do agree with many of the posts in this thread but as wise man once said "My time has come to leave" (In the case of the thread That was meant, Not the whole software )

maxbeaumont

I talk to Mr. TSB often, he was planning on leaving to try C2, but then decided to stay with GameSalad after all. While he is not around full time like he used to be, he is still around and working on some stuff, but mostly doing tshirts at the moment. I'll leave it at that. If he wants to come on and address this himself, that's his business

Cheers,
Max

LeonardDeveloper

@Gshelper Thanks for the input Max, appreciate it - It definitely clears up the confusion