LiveCode

PixelMetal

Saw this on KickStarter today: LiveCode on KickStarter

Seems like an open source (thumbs up!) direct competitor for GS, with a scripting language similar to Director's old Lingo syntax, and also supports many of the features - true HTML5 support, custom fonts, Windows 7/XP support, Linux support, video playback, real database access, file system access, arrays, online access in the app - that people have been asking for.

POM

Hmm what exactly is the propose of this thread?

Roy.

PixelMetal

This is the Non-GS Game News section, correct?

I ran across this and it looks neat. And when I last looked they still needed KS funding (maybe not anymore) with not a whole lot of time left, and if folks on this forum are interested in supporting indie development (and getting a reward for doing so), it sure seems like a good place to do so.

@P-O-M And what was the purpose of your post again?

LiquidGameworks

How is anything that requires learning a new coding language a direct competitor to GS? You might as well use Corona or YoYo.

PixelMetal

How is anything that requires learning a new coding language a direct competitor to GS? You might as well use Corona or YoYo.

Try reading the actual page - and try looking at the GUI screenshot.

JarrenH

I heavily used LiveCode before changing over to gamesalad for this particular game I'm working on. But if you want more powerful computing, I would recomend LiveCode. It is built with more than game development in mind, and allows direct communication between objects, something that game salad is severely lacking.
Currently it's only downside is its lack of physics engine and built in animation. However, if they reach their stretch goal (which they are close to reaching), they will incorporate Box2D physics into their platform, which will open up the possibilities. I highly recommend trying out LiveCode, if it weren't for the lack of physics engine, I would be using LiveCode right now. (Not saying that I haven't found value in gamesalad)

CoIin

There's a similarity between GS and LC. Not in the way it looks, its features, or how you use it! But, GS enabled people to create things with graphical building blocks, and LC uses an English like programming language. Both tools let people do neat things without having to deal with complex programming languages. But, with both tools you still have to have a logical mind to do more advanced things.

As LC will be free, and won't be a serious alternative to the things GS can do (until they get through the long list of "stretch" goals), it's worth checking out even if you don't use it for GS types of apps for now.

RP

Reminds me of a Torque 2D Gamesalad Hybrid.

LiquidGameworks

@pixelmetal A little less snark please.... And I had read it. Yes, it has a visual editor. THis means you can place items/images on the canvas to arrange it, but you still have to script actions via the code. GameSalad's uniqueness (and I'm guessing in your opinion weakness), is that there is no typing of code. A user can choose from a set of behaviors without having to create code for it (regardless of what language the code is in). The youtube video on the site may help you with that understanding. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ghvYqwsgsmI#!

PixelMetal

@pixelmetal A little less snark please.... And I had read it. Yes, it has a visual editor. THis means you can place items/images on the canvas to arrange it, but you still have to script actions via the code. GameSalad's uniqueness (and I'm guessing in your opinion weakness), is that there is no typing of code. A user can choose from a set of behaviors without having to create code for it (regardless of what language the code is in). The youtube video on the site may help you with that understanding.
---video ---

That wasn't snark, that was saying what needed to be done to have the information to participate in a discussion. <- THAT was snark.

To say that there is no typing of code in GS is laughable at best, dishonest at worst.

Do you have to type if/then? No. But you do have to drag a behavior, add the variable that behavior checks, and then type/click in a line of code in the Expression editor...which is a combination of typing code and lots and lots and LOTS of clicking. There's MAYBE an arguable point with GS that you don't necessarily have to FORMAT code, but one way or another, you're typing in code and numbers and equations that access global & local variables (attributes). GS "code" is GS "language." "Behaviors" are roughly speaking functions. The differences are purely semantics.

Anyways, my point was to post something neat to the non-GS forum that people may also find neat, and I've done that. I'm not wanting this thread to devolve into the typical sides of people who see and recognize issues with GS and those who will fight to the death to defend it.

@JarrenH Thanks for the insight!
@RP Yep, overall GUI-wise I think most of these 2D tools borrow interface elements (read: steal) from Flash, so they all end up being very similar visually. LiveCode's language seems to be a bit more straightforward to get ahold of than TorqueScript, which can only be a good thing.

Aurora

It's true that LiveCode uses - gasp - actual typing; but my own experience is that after passing some stage of complexity, that's really a better way. And as others have said, LiveCode can take you to all sorts of places that GameSalad can't. It has been commercial only, and reasonably pricey - as the Kickstarter has now passed the basic goal, it will shortly be available free and open source for non-commercial use. GS may still be the right tool for many cases - but it's always nice to have choices.

The stretch goal they're currently working towards - with just 13 hours go to - is the Physics Engine - they've passed their first three stretch goals, this was #4. If they don't make it, it may well happen in the long run, but by the time they've finished doing everything else, it may no longer be top of their priority list - whereas if they Kickstarter reaches that level, they'll be committed to it. So this is a great time to add a pledge - anytime in the next 12 hours would be good, no hurry... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1755283828/open-source-edition-of-livecode/

gyroscope

For the record, I used LiveCode for two or three years (before discovering GameSalad) from the days it was called Runtime Revolution. I preferred it to RealBasic that I tried before that. You'd probably find some of my old posts on their Forums, if they go back that far!

It's terrific to simply drag out Mac "furniture" ready-made (buttons, fields, etc) and then write a relatively straightforward BASIC-type programming to produce quite sophisticated stuff, especially for the desktop (Mac, Windows & Linux).

THe mobile stuff (which I'm not certain will be in the community version anyway) is only about a year and a half old; it's certainly more work to get an app together than with GameSalad, as a comparison.

But for producing fully-fledged Applications - as major as you like - it's got the stuff and is to be recommended.

As far as I've learned (but not totally sure) you can get the community version of LiveCode by pledging a minimum of $5/£3, although I've the feeling you'd have to buy an extra licence to sell your applications commercially.... although I might be wrong.

It's in no way a replacement for GameSalad ( and vice versa) - they're different tools for different jobs essentially – but it's a good application in its own right, all the same.

Anyhow, that's my two pence with if it helps anyone.

LiquidGameworks

You can't ever be wrong, can you? For a person who cannot code, there is a distinct difference between having an adjustable tool, where all the parameters are defined in front of you (even if you have to adjust each knob), and having to imagine what parameters exist, and typing them out. As an example, without the GS particles behavior as it is, a new user wouldn't understand all the parameters that could be changed. Thus, the difference between GS (and Stencyl and similar programs) and coding based (LiveCode, Corona etc).

By the way, "Try reading the actual page" is snark. A non-snarky way, which would have made you seem like less of an asshat, would have been "The information on the page indicates blah blah blah". In saying "try" & "actual" you are inherently questioning either my intelligent or my diligence.

gyroscope

How is anything that requires learning a new coding language a direct competitor to GS? You might as well use Corona or YoYo.

:-bd

...

Seems like an ... direct competitor for GS...

Totally disagree with this comment though: firstly LiveCode has been around for many more years than GameSalad (albeit not in this form) so if anything, you could say GameSalad is a direct competitor with LiveCode... (OK,LiveCode only got into the mobile side of things a couple of years ago...).

The excellent plus-point for GameSalad which it's always been, is there is no coding required, for a start. LiveCode requires coding. The major feature of GameSalad is the ability to produce relatively sophisticated mobile apps with ease; LiveCode isn't there yet, but even when it is, it will always need coding. And LiveCode's primary forte is for building rock-solid and sophisticated desktop applications, as opposed to GameSalad's forte of building apps for mobile platforms.

So they are essentially two different types of application with different outlooks/uses, etc.

But if you do leave GameSalad and go with LiveCode for game-making, the best of luck to you.

PixelMetal

By the way, "Try reading the actual page" is snark. A non-snarky way, which would have made you seem like less of an asshat, would have been "The information on the page indicates blah blah blah". In saying "try" & "actual" you are inherently questioning either my intelligent or my diligence.

Two things: I'm happy to see that these are the folks GS promotes. I suppose at the very least they're good at defending GS's honor, eh? <-snark

What you take as snark is up to you. It wasn't meant as snark but please, feel free to get your dander up if it makes you feel better. Or you could, y'know, not reply to posts you don't like. It's just a thought. Unless your intent was to derail a thread in which case, by all means, continue. But I think I'll just restrict my replies to people adding to the actual discussion in the future.

@gyroscope Thanks for the info! I'd never seen LiveCode before but at first glance and after a little reading and comprehension, it seems like an interesting product with a wide array of application. I still say that for anything worthwhile GS requires at least a bare minimum of coding, but we can agree to disagree on that point, as I have no pony in this show.

RP

I dunno I think torque script is a good thing since many other SDKs use a similar scripting language. A very good universal thing indeed. *Also very practical when you want to graduate from one kit to another or use other pro tools using script.

PixelMetal

I dunno I think torque script is a good thing since many other SDKs use a similar scripting language. A very good universal thing indeed.

I don't know that I'd call TorqueScript bad, per se, but it certainly wasn't something I was interested in dealing with because of the toolset surrounding it. It does have a bit of a JS-style syntax and my background with development lies more on the web side of things so it wasn't necessarily difficult to pick up, but its portability was lacking. I see GarageGames has finally unified mobile and desktop support, so perhaps they're headed in that direction with their product as well, which could be a good thing.

LiveCode seems to have tackled this problem from the beginning in terms of supported systems, which I think is a more forward-thinking approach.

JarrenH

I just have to add here that I agree they aren't comparable, or even competing with each other. Gamesalad is for games. That's about it. It can make other apps, but its function is games. LiveCode is pretty much the other way around. Its for apps, business types. It's not so strong on the game side. Both can be used in different ways to complete different goals. I wish they would learn a thing or two from each other. Almost like a hybrid. I want the ease of use of gamesalad, paired with the typing ability of LiveCode. Pointing and clicking is currently the only bottleneck for me in gamesalad. Why can't we type "self.position.x" instead of having to navigate to the right parameter?