From that I got that the editor is at the end of the list of priorities and isn't something that's likely to be sorted in the upcoming months. @Manto1 we're counting on you now. No pressure!
Braydon_SFXMember, Sous Chef, PRO, Bowlboy SidekickPosts: 9,271
@CodeWizard - You rock man. Thanks for taking the time to write a nice, detailed reply.
@Socks I think it's unwise to make the leap that just because a prototype tool has some features in it that those features are trivial to implement in an existing codebase.
No one has suggested that (as far as I am aware), as has already been said it's better (much much better) to have this functionality in an external editor rather than waiting for years for these tools (and them still not appearing). There's been no suggestion from anyone that this needs to be integrated into GameSalad (beyond compatibility of the XML files it produces).
There's the difference. Sure, if we wanted to spend a few days a whip up a prototype of these features then we could do so. But that's not helpful for us. We have an existing codebase to work with -- we don't have the luxury of just tossing that in the trash and rebuilding it from scratch.
Again, no one in this thread, or elsewhere, has suggested anyone toss anything in the trash.
This kind of thing might not be helpful to you, but I really do think it might be enormously helpful to your users, check out the response on Manto1's thread, no one there is telling him that this stuff isn't helpful, the consensus seems to be that it will be fantastically helpful, in fact between the din of clapping and cheering you can just about make out the sound of hundreds of GS users salivating.
You say that you could whip up something like this in a few days, if you did the applause would take months to die down, imagine this:
Hey everyone ! Today we are pleased to announce the official GameSalad Layout Tool™ - it allows you to rapidly lay out large scenes with tools like snap-to-grid, alignment control, group selection, group translations, select all, fit scene to window, zoom in and zoom out, guides, snap to guides, live access to X/Y coordinates . . . etc etc . . . with a simple, easy to use import and export from GameSalad . . and it's completely free** . . . !
I really think people would love that, of course you are right in that it would be nice to have this functionality within GameSalad, but not three-years-waiting nice, I suspect it would be a compromise (even if interim) that people would prefer over the other option (not having these tools), those with dozens of complex levels to build would worship you like a god, it would decimate their build time.
**( . . . and by the way I would be more than happy to pay a decent price for this tool.)
As has been pointed out it's imperative that you kidnap Manto and steal his brain, failing that you could just find him and eat his brain to gain his power (I'm not sure about the science supporting this, but it's worth a shot).
It's tantamount to saying to an architect: "Look at this house frame I've put up over the weekend! Clearly you should be able to replace your frame with this one in no time." Sadly, it's just not that simple.
Manto1 has built an extension to your metaphorical house rather than a replacement.
@CodeWizard thanks for posting such a detailed response, it really clears a lot of things up and Gamesalad's priorities make more sense now that we understand the thought process behind the decisions.
I get your priority list. I definitely agree that the top priority should be Engine Improvements. That is a big must, but right after Engine Improvements I would squeeze in RevMob integration before Features and UI Improvements. Think of it this way. What good does it do to have Async Multiplayer if you can't even monetize your free app? Of course you can just put it in your Pro version, but realistically the free model is over taking the paid model. Us devs NEED to be able to monetize our free games. You guys had to learn the hard way that Mobclix just doesn't pay although I do appreciate the attempt. Currently GS doesn't offer the creme of the crop ad solutions. GS currently offers the reject children ad companies.
Another way to look at it, if developers are able to make good money from good performing ad networks, this in turn is money they can use to keep their Pro subscription going. (This also includes people reporting their great earnings from ads on the forums leading to MORE people going Pro). If they can't earn enough revenue to displace the cost of Pro... why go Pro (keep Pro)? i.e Who is going to pay $300 for Pro if they aren't making anything good (or not getting paid at all) from ad companies, when they can instead just stay non-Pro releasing paid versions for free (free GS) until they hit a big one.
I don't know, just my two cents. Devs make money you guys make money. That simple. Dev success earning good money from a good ad network = more people flocking to use GS = more money for you. (Not to mention, if you guys throw in RevMob ads in non-Pro GS users apps... you will make a nice income. RevMob performs well I can vouch for that.)
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response @CodeWizard. At least it's clear what is going on and why, users can choose do with that info what they will.
Its a well laid out and insightful post from @CodeWizard. Thanks for that! As we can see, its going to be a while off yet!
In the mean time, we maybe able to use @Manto1 tool, i'm fine with that! I'd rather GS sort the underlying crap out! I havent been able to merge projects directly within GS but I can with DBA's tool and i'm fine with it .. I love it! One way or another, I just want to be able to do it!
Imagine that a cowboy built your house. He took shortcuts and rushed the foundations. The house was built and new builders came in to build an extension! They found the foundations to be poor, the only safe way was to restructure it! Next extension they wont need to restructure it as its sorted and will now be able to build quicker. I see it like that, i appreciate the honesty and I expect deadlines from 3rd party deals to take priority as its that revenue that allows GS to continue!
I do feel once this has passed GS really needs to excite us and bring some much needed features .. To the UI and to the features list!
A big problem facing the development team is paying off the significant amount of tech debt that we've accumulated over the years.
This is unfortunate, but considering how long Gs has been around and how long its been since certain issues were addressed, it makes sense. Hopefully going forward some resources will be allocated to reducing this in the long term by addressing these issues sooner when they are more manageable. I can fully understand the need here.
There's something else to consider here as well...
Contractual Obligations
Even more unfortunate, I guess this helps company in the short-mid term? It seems like some (keyword here) are next to useless for a lot of us.
If given the choice of having a half baked tool with a million monitiziation options vs having a fully baked tool with a handful of monetization options I would choose the latter.
Why is it that a beta software is more focused on this anyway? Shouldn't a beta software be focused on becoming a full release software? I know this is something that pre-dates you @Codewizard and you've been working within the system to get things in the right direction, along with the rest of the engineers. All of us are thankful for that.
There's the difference. Sure, if we wanted to spend a few days a whip up a prototype of these features then we could do so. But that's not helpful for us. We have an existing codebase to work with -- we don't have the luxury of just tossing that in the trash and rebuilding it from scratch.
Not for a fully integrated system sure, but running this in a seperate window with some integration with the main system can't be too hard. One button to launch the "edit mode", one to save and switch to "logic mode", Xml's are edited externally but work within the framework.
It is a solution, not the ideal solution and would end up with some tech debt in the long run most likely, but it's been so neglected that people are clamoring for literally ANY solution. That's how critical it's become. But since it's going to be created anyway by @Manto1 I hope we can have this wish fufilled sooner even if it is not GS official.
On another topic, what about the GS animation engine. It's innacurate and people are literally able to create system within GS that run smoother and calculate faster by logic. When your own integrated system is surpassed by a users not that's not even coded, you know it's time for an overhaul.
The above cases are not the only ones either where we have to be creative to just get a solid solution.
Man if GS had this:
1. Animation improvements ( any one of these: joints, spriter intgeration, sprite sheets, etc) 2. Async Multi 3. Custom Fonts 4. Creator workflow improvements 5. Memory optimization (but by implementing 1/3 you could get this)
It would be the top dog for 2d engines in my book, and I would be fine paying even more for pro/paying extra for multiplayer.
All in good time right? Just don't keep us waiting too long.
Keep on trucking, don't be discouraged by our clamoring. After all, our clamoring just means you have a bunch of dedicated core users, so you must be doing something right.
@codewizard thanks for the very informative post. It seems things were handed to you in greater disrepair than suspected. The years of mismanagement can take their toll. Here's hoping the executive team has learned a valuable lesson. I also, hope they realize moving forward to make smarter choices going forward. This includes a tightly focused strategy, which includes saying no to making deals for the sake of making deals. 1 smart deal is better than 10 crummy ones. There have been a lot of deals in the last 3 years and most of them were duds. Yet the constant has been creator and by now this tool could have been something powerful, yet the team was constantly distracted by the next deal. The one smart thing Steve has done in the last three years was hire you. Let's hope that is an indication of things to come. GS needs a good four month break from new deals to focus on creator and then getting back to making smart deals.
@ codewizard all that I ask is that the new release is out in time for us to suport ios 7. if it is not could you release an update that just suports ios7?
That is what scares me the most. While it may make some sense, Adobe are good at making a mess. Just look at the crazy array of Flash based software products etc.
@ codewizard all that I ask is that the new release is out in time for us to suport ios 7. if it is not could you release an update that just suports ios7?
Thx
After reading on the last nightly build post that pros such as FryingBaconStudios (I can't figure out how to paste in a profile name as a link on my iPad) are currently building games using nightly builds, I'm going to have a go at this myself. I think I can hugely streamline my current project using the new expressions referencing straight off tables.
However I'm also really keen to understand more on plans to support iOS 7 - normal or nightly builds...
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
@darrelf of course they are going to support iOS 7 its our bread and butter platform. but they can't fully support it until Apple finishes it. once its done and good to go it will make it down to a public release for non-pro users.
@darrelf of course they are going to support iOS 7 its our bread and butter platform. but they can't fully support it until Apple finishes it. once its done and good to go it will make it down to a public release for non-pro users.
Thanks @tenrdrmer I really want to release my next game this side of Christmas and so as a Pro user myself, if I build using the nightly build version of Creator, I guess I'm really hoping the nightly builds will also support iOS7. I'm not very technically minded so I have no idea on how feasible this is...
I've been reading a lot of posts since using Gamesalad at the start of the year and the lack of updates to Creator has caused me concerns - to the point of searching for alternatives for my next game.
BUT the informative postings in this and other threads lately has turned a lot of that concern into positive optimism. Fingers are very tightly crossed all goes well and to plan soon.
So your working on "Amazon in-app-purchase" but how about this other stuff?
Windows 8 phone in-app-purchase? Windows 8 in-app-purchase? nook in-app-purchase? Google play in-app-purchase?
Analytics? Some kind of way to connect with server?
All the competition has had this stuff for at least a year. Im not sure how you think we can compete on the other platforms with no in app?
I would be willing to pay $200 extra each a year for any of the things mentioned.
What about time travel? Please. So far if you add up all the 'why don't they have this or that' yet posts I think we now covered pretty well all possible features people want. It's been answered what is being concentrated on and the reasons why. Are the features you mentioned more important than others? Arguable at best but you can't have every possible feature under the sun worked on at the same time.
It's about prioritizing and focus and that can't include everything for everyone, simple as that.
We all need to face facts. All the asking screaming in the world can't change the reality of what @codewizard layed out. Unraveling years of mismanagement is a daunting task. I have great respect for his honesty in revealing the situation. Be thankful there is finally someone willing to take on the challenge of cleaning up the mess and not sweeping it under the rug like others did. Now that I understand how bad the situation is, I am willing to be patient and give him the space to do what needs to be done. Upper management need to back off on the deal making and allow the team to catchup and get the house in order before they commit to anymore deals. They are going to have to have the courage to say NO to deals or explain they can't begin doing the work until the proper cleanup is complete. And when they do take on a major deal they need to bring on staff to balance the scales. They need to commit to a core team on creator and those people are untouchable unless a crisis happens. Gamesalad has a horrible reputation out there among developers. There is a proverb that says a good name is better than gold or silver. It's time for GS to stop being kiddy land and start fostering a serious development community. 2/3 of the forum are kids, what serious PR firm or development house wants to wade through that environment? Fostering a pro environment means better games which relates to better exposure and more revenue for the GS games network. When I watch these speeches by the GS leadership I see them touting stuff and games that are years old. Time to move forward guys! It's time for GS to grow up as a company and vision.
...I have one glaring problem with the Creator. Fundamentally it hasn't been touched since I started using GameSalad two years(!) ago and i haven't seen any indication for this to change. There are some bugs but I've learned to dodge them so they don't really distract me from my work. What's really distracting me are the tons of work flow blockers. There's no getting used to them. They just stand in my way every time i work with GameSalad now. A few examples for work flow blockers are:
- resetting of window sizes whenever you change view, or go back to a previous one - losing your current position inside the list of actors/attributes/images/sounds when you open an actor/switch to another scene/... - how cumbersome it is to change the position or size of an actor to a proper value - lack of grouping, for moving many objects at once, for example - how slow the creator is getting - even on a really fast mac (in combination with all the other problems this can drive you nuts)
Right now it feels like this to me: for every hour i've saved while prototyping my game and testing its gameplay, i'm losing two hours working on the content and detail. I think that's not how it should feel and there could really be done something about it. You can't build great houses on sand, you need a strong fundament and from my point of view the fundament of GameSalad is its Creator.
Now let me end this wall of text. I really love GameSalad and wish its team success and a flourishing future. I just think that it needs a shift of priorities.
Cheers!
I agree.
I'd love to see core improvements to the performance and basic functionality of the creator and the game output. Such as...
* I get totally slowed down by constantly by having to scroll down to find attributes in the Expression Editor. Should be an autocomplete feature, or autofind by starting to type (as there already is in the Change Attribute dropdown picker).
* The Creator slowdown is really annoying, and seems to happen after adding new attributes to the project, or going in to view Tables a few times, or working with actors with lots of behaviours.
* Would be great if the Creator would maintain the window pane sizes and scroll-position when switching scenes.
* Memory and performance optimisations wherever and whenever possible throughout, on iOS and Android.
@CodeWizard - Can some of the issues be solved with more workers(money)? If so why not hire more people? Or outsource the paying of "tech-debt"? I've heard of crews out there that clean up code. Couldn't new hires or whatever be funded by increasing the cost of pro?
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Cheers for the response
This kind of thing might not be helpful to you, but I really do think it might be enormously helpful to your users, check out the response on Manto1's thread, no one there is telling him that this stuff isn't helpful, the consensus seems to be that it will be fantastically helpful, in fact between the din of clapping and cheering you can just about make out the sound of hundreds of GS users salivating.
You say that you could whip up something like this in a few days, if you did the applause would take months to die down, imagine this:
Hey everyone ! Today we are pleased to announce the official GameSalad Layout Tool™ - it allows you to rapidly lay out large scenes with tools like snap-to-grid, alignment control, group selection, group translations, select all, fit scene to window, zoom in and zoom out, guides, snap to guides, live access to X/Y coordinates . . . etc etc . . . with a simple, easy to use import and export from GameSalad . . and it's completely free** . . . !
I really think people would love that, of course you are right in that it would be nice to have this functionality within GameSalad, but not three-years-waiting nice, I suspect it would be a compromise (even if interim) that people would prefer over the other option (not having these tools), those with dozens of complex levels to build would worship you like a god, it would decimate their build time.
**( . . . and by the way I would be more than happy to pay a decent price for this tool.) As has been pointed out it's imperative that you kidnap Manto and steal his brain, failing that you could just find him and eat his brain to gain his power (I'm not sure about the science supporting this, but it's worth a shot). Manto1 has built an extension to your metaphorical house rather than a replacement.
I get your priority list. I definitely agree that the top priority should be Engine Improvements. That is a big must, but right after Engine Improvements I would squeeze in RevMob integration before Features and UI Improvements. Think of it this way. What good does it do to have Async Multiplayer if you can't even monetize your free app? Of course you can just put it in your Pro version, but realistically the free model is over taking the paid model. Us devs NEED to be able to monetize our free games. You guys had to learn the hard way that Mobclix just doesn't pay although I do appreciate the attempt. Currently GS doesn't offer the creme of the crop ad solutions. GS currently offers the reject children ad companies.
Another way to look at it, if developers are able to make good money from good performing ad networks, this in turn is money they can use to keep their Pro subscription going. (This also includes people reporting their great earnings from ads on the forums leading to MORE people going Pro). If they can't earn enough revenue to displace the cost of Pro... why go Pro (keep Pro)? i.e Who is going to pay $300 for Pro if they aren't making anything good (or not getting paid at all) from ad companies, when they can instead just stay non-Pro releasing paid versions for free (free GS) until they hit a big one.
I don't know, just my two cents. Devs make money you guys make money. That simple. Dev success earning good money from a good ad network = more people flocking to use GS = more money for you. (Not to mention, if you guys throw in RevMob ads in non-Pro GS users apps... you will make a nice income. RevMob performs well I can vouch for that.)
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In the mean time, we maybe able to use @Manto1 tool, i'm fine with that! I'd rather GS sort the underlying crap out! I havent been able to merge projects directly within GS but I can with DBA's tool and i'm fine with it .. I love it! One way or another, I just want to be able to do it!
Imagine that a cowboy built your house. He took shortcuts and rushed the foundations. The house was built and new builders came in to build an extension! They found the foundations to be poor, the only safe way was to restructure it! Next extension they wont need to restructure it as its sorted and will now be able to build quicker.
I see it like that, i appreciate the honesty and I expect deadlines from 3rd party deals to take priority as its that revenue that allows GS to continue!
I do feel once this has passed GS really needs to excite us and bring some much needed features .. To the UI and to the features list!
If given the choice of having a half baked tool with a million monitiziation options vs having a fully baked tool with a handful of monetization options I would choose the latter.
Why is it that a beta software is more focused on this anyway? Shouldn't a beta software be focused on becoming a full release software? I know this is something that pre-dates you @Codewizard and you've been working within the system to get things in the right direction, along with the rest of the engineers. All of us are thankful for that. Not for a fully integrated system sure, but running this in a seperate window with some integration with the main system can't be too hard. One button to launch the "edit mode", one to save and switch to "logic mode", Xml's are edited externally but work within the framework.
It is a solution, not the ideal solution and would end up with some tech debt in the long run most likely, but it's been so neglected that people are clamoring for literally ANY solution. That's how critical it's become. But since it's going to be created anyway by @Manto1 I hope we can have this wish fufilled sooner even if it is not GS official.
On another topic, what about the GS animation engine. It's innacurate and people are literally able to create system within GS that run smoother and calculate faster by logic. When your own integrated system is surpassed by a users not that's not even coded, you know it's time for an overhaul.
The above cases are not the only ones either where we have to be creative to just get a solid solution.
Man if GS had this:
1. Animation improvements ( any one of these: joints, spriter intgeration, sprite sheets, etc)
2. Async Multi
3. Custom Fonts
4. Creator workflow improvements
5. Memory optimization (but by implementing 1/3 you could get this)
It would be the top dog for 2d engines in my book, and I would be fine paying even more for pro/paying extra for multiplayer.
All in good time right? Just don't keep us waiting too long.
Keep on trucking, don't be discouraged by our clamoring. After all, our clamoring just means you have a bunch of dedicated core users, so you must be doing something right.
Guru Video Channel | Lost Oasis Games | FRYING BACON STUDIOS
Some good points, well made
QS =
DDr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
if it is not could you release an update that just suports ios7?
Thx
After reading on the last nightly build post that pros such as FryingBaconStudios (I can't figure out how to paste in a profile name as a link on my iPad) are currently building games using nightly builds, I'm going to have a go at this myself. I think I can hugely streamline my current project using the new expressions referencing straight off tables.
However I'm also really keen to understand more on plans to support iOS 7 - normal or nightly builds...
I really want to release my next game this side of Christmas and so as a Pro user myself, if I build using the nightly build version of Creator, I guess I'm really hoping the nightly builds will also support iOS7. I'm not very technically minded so I have no idea on how feasible this is...
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*makes notes*
QS =
DDr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
BUT the informative postings in this and other threads lately has turned a lot of that concern into positive optimism. Fingers are very tightly crossed all goes well and to plan soon.
Good luck with your continual hard work GS team..
but how about this other stuff?
Windows 8 phone in-app-purchase?
Windows 8 in-app-purchase?
nook in-app-purchase?
Google play in-app-purchase?
Analytics?
Some kind of way to connect with server?
All the competition has had this stuff for at least a year.
Im not sure how you think we can compete on the other platforms with no in app?
I would be willing to pay $200 extra each a year for any of the things mentioned.
It's about prioritizing and focus and that can't include everything for everyone, simple as that.
Guru Video Channel | Lost Oasis Games | FRYING BACON STUDIOS
I agree.
I'd love to see core improvements to the performance and basic functionality of the creator and the game output. Such as...
* I get totally slowed down by constantly by having to scroll down to find attributes in the Expression Editor. Should be an autocomplete feature, or autofind by starting to type (as there already is in the Change Attribute dropdown picker).
* The Creator slowdown is really annoying, and seems to happen after adding new attributes to the project, or going in to view Tables a few times, or working with actors with lots of behaviours.
* Would be great if the Creator would maintain the window pane sizes and scroll-position when switching scenes.
* Memory and performance optimisations wherever and whenever possible throughout, on iOS and Android.