• ? • Keep a game project secret? or discuss openly to improve it....

StormyStudioStormyStudio United KingdomMember Posts: 3,989
edited September 2013 in Working with GS (Mac)
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This is something I'm sure we've all hit at some point, the need to share a game project idea with other developers to get feedback but you're not sure if you want to risk someone copying your idea before you've made it yourself.

Where do you stand on this?

Do you share your ideas early on with other developers, with this forum?

Do you choose to keep them secret until a game is 90% to 100% complete?

There are so many positives to be gained from talking over a game idea as well as its art work style, game mechanics, social abilities, rewards, difficulty levels...

- People will give you honest opinions, both good and bad
- A little tip on how to do something,
- Point out a flawed design they don't like
- Think of a crazy addition to an idea that could help make it awesome.
- If you blog and share it widely you can build a fan base before the game is out, thus helping your marketing on release.
- Discuss whether in app purchases suit the game or would destroy it.
- They might tell you a similar game already exists that your not aware of

With that said I'm yet to share my new game development, its early days and I want to build it slowly... If I shared it now I'd be really frustrated if someone took the idea and ran with it before I could... once its out in the world it's fair game...

I recently watched this talk (from really successful indie studio Vlambeer), at the end they discuss their approach and why they still continue to blog and share prototypes of their game developments even though they've had a game cloned and released on the same day that they released their award winning title Ridiculous Fishing.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1019340/Cloned-at-Birth-The-Story

I guess ideally there would be somewhere to discuss a game idea with a select few trusted developers rather than the whole open forum and world.

Thoughts?

Cheers

Jon
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Comments

  • UtopianGamesUtopianGames Member Posts: 5,692
    edited September 2013
    I have family and friends that play test mine and they don't make games so im pretty safe...i think lol.

    When its over 70% ??? complete discuss with the community.

    Darren.
  • MillionairAppsMillionairApps Member Posts: 110
    This is something I had been thinking about since day one. What puts me off is that even complicated games like ridiculous fishing are cloned. And the fact that GS makes copying games take less time and I am sure many quiet GS members do that.

    So I had decided not to go public with development, well not to developers, if you are going to get feedback, get it from players, not developers. It's just runs the a higher risk of them copying.

    I personally have a group of five close testers, followed by many more who see later versions of the game. It's not creating any buzz but at least I know I can get feedback without one of them trying to clone.

    Just my opinions anyway
  • KevinCrossKevinCross London, UKMember Posts: 1,894
    I'm really keen to show what I'm working on but am also worried someone will pinch the idea and work quicker than me at completing it :)

    It's a shame because I'd like to blog about my progress too.

    I will probably wait until I'm quite far in to it.
  • BoomshackBarryBoomshackBarry Member Posts: 712
    Personally I'm quite guarded about things I'm working on, although I realise this might be to a fault. I tend to not want tips or advice from outside folks, because at the end of the day it's my game I'm working on, and I want it built and released my way. If a friend or colleague thought up an awesome new addition for a game I'm working on, and I implemented it, I'd be forever begrudging the fact that it's not entirely my game any more, but partly somebody else's. And what if a feature a friend suggested became a main component of my game going forward, will they begrudge the fact that I've released it as my own and have not compensated them for their idea? It has the potential to get quite messy.

    Obviously this doesn't apply if I were part of a development team because then the game would be the work of the team, and as such I wouldn't be as protective over it as I am as an individual dev.

    Regarding people copying your games I guess posting it on an open forum would be pretty dangerous. If need be post snippets, like I've recently posted a screenshot of my current game on my blog, but I haven't mentioned the gameplay or features yet. I feel confident that you can't tell enough from that screenshot to understand the game mechanics anywhere near enough to copy it. As the game progresses I'll release more screenshot etc, but that's more to build an audience than to get advice. If you're looking for creative input then you'll need to share more of the game, but with more risk.
  • dayofjackaldayofjackal Member Posts: 111
    Secret until literally at release point to avoid being 'cloned'. Any kind of success and normally theres a ripoff from china within weeks.

    Its different for big studios who can release quicker thanks to having big teams. As indies its often just us or 1 or 2 others so a slower dev process.

    Still, this can be used to your advantage. Drip feed marketing to build intrigue.
  • beefy_clyrobeefy_clyro Member Posts: 5,394
    TELL TELL TELL ... Mainly because I love hearing what people are working on ;)

    I would however make sure i was a decent enough way through
  • StormyStudioStormyStudio United KingdomMember Posts: 3,989
    Ok, so seems like we are all agreed... keep it secret till you've done a shed load of work...
  • JagonAppsJagonApps Member Posts: 241
    I keep it a secret, but if I am really stuck on something, I strip my project right down to the very basic thing (without artwork) that I am stuck with, then I can share the code on GS for help and it won't matter!
  • RPRP Member Posts: 1,990
    Keep it on the hush-hush. Like you said, once you have the majority of the game out of the way, then drop a teaser. Anyone who is slick enough to try to borrow your idea won't be able to catch up anytime soon or get an idea of the foundation you set since you did not share any of the early work builds.

    Although, it is fun to drop hints of the game via graphics here and there when they don't really give anything away.
  • StormyStudioStormyStudio United KingdomMember Posts: 3,989
    It's a shame but obviously the only way to keep your idea safe...
  • The_Gamesalad_GuruThe_Gamesalad_Guru Member Posts: 9,922
    Well we could have a group off gamesalad forums of longtime trusted folks who help each other in this area. it helps that I have a partner in @RP to work with but I know most others work alone.
  • VolontaArtsVolontaArts Member Posts: 510
    my advice... if your doing something thats already been done... discuss.. it doesnt really matter. But if you have a brilliant unique idea to put in this game.... just leave that part out ;)
  • lebiscuitlebiscuit Member, PRO Posts: 220
    yep i think you can talk about lil problem, but not the full project as @VolontaArts said,
  • ADSentertainmentADSentertainment Member Posts: 397
    I tell people on my facebook about the development of my game: Galastar. Very few people know about the large storyline that Galastar CONTAINS, though. That's what I keep secret. The concept I'm totally open to when game designing

    Having trouble with your game? Sounds like a personal problem.

  • mataruamatarua Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 854
    Interesting discussion - my game is hidden mostly at the moment and one reason is it's a part time project. So it's taking a long time. It's also very ambitious. So it's taking even longer. It could also be revolutionary and I want to protect that part of it.

    So I try to do a lot of things to keep it private but still make a good game.

    I read a lot of books - they basically back up my thoughts a lot - and I learn things from them to add to my knowledge base.

    I play a lot of games that are popular and analyse them.

    My partner user tests my game as I develop it. So does my nephew, friends and colleagues.

    I saw a story the other day where they did 'street testing' by giving a random stranger a device and saying 'play this game' and seeing what they are doing.

    These techniques are good for private games as you are not releasing IP and concept to the wider public.

    There are downsides - like the exposure you miss out on - with something that gets noticed while in development - look at kickstarter for example could be a huge boost to help you build your game - perhaps give up your job and work full time on a game.

    I think it's up to the person - how original the idea is - what your experience level is - how far you are through it - name security and domain, twitter, facebook account setups - so many factors really that help you make the decision.

    Interesting discussion, cheers, M@
  • RThurmanRThurman Member, Sous Chef, PRO Posts: 2,880
    This really is a very interesting discussion.

    I do understand how frustrating it must be to have potential earnings and/or recognition stolen by someone else. But I have to admit that I would be tickled pink if anyone thought enough of my stuff to want to copy it. Its easy to get others to say "nice job". Its much more flattering to have them say; "ohh... I want that... now!"
  • lycettebroslycettebros Member, PRO Posts: 1,598
    I show little tidbits publicly on my development blog - graphic ideas mainly but not complete work or prototypes until I am confident it is close to submission or in fact approved by Apple. I consider any criticism offered on what I show.

    I will test it on the target audience and they should give me all the changes necessary before sharing with other game developers.....I trust most of you guys but not all! Developers have insight worth accessing but I think my own close/private/trusted networks of developers, designers and testers is all I need until I publish. After publication, well that is a different story.

    My biggest concern is not gameplay or graphics, we are all influenced by many others, it is arrogant thinking my work is so highly original it needs to be hidden completely. What is more important to me is not wanting to share the name/title of the game. To me the name of a game is more valuable than anything and can make a game a winner or not...it is too easy for someone to steal a name and register it before I publish!
  • BoomshackBarryBoomshackBarry Member Posts: 712
    To me the name of a game is more valuable than anything and can make a game a winner or not...it is too easy for someone to steal a name and register it before I publish!
    Exactly this, the name is a huge part of your IP. What I do on my blog is when I'm talking about my games in development I'll call them game one, game two, etc. I've got a great little name lined up for my current WIP and there's no way I'm sharing that until it's actually mine!
  • lycettebroslycettebros Member, PRO Posts: 1,598
    I use working titles.."Pigz" is one at the moment.
  • BoomshackBarryBoomshackBarry Member Posts: 712
    I like working titles better, more creative than game one, game two...
  • VGXVGX Member Posts: 796
    I know I'm a bit late on this discussion but definitely keep your project to yourself. When it's about 98% done then mention it. A little feedback could help with those last minute touches.
    If there are people on here who are trust worthy, then you could always email one another to help with ideas or whatever. Theres a couple I could trust @LeonardDeveloper is one.
  • firemaplegamesfiremaplegames Member Posts: 3,211
    In my opinion, people will only steal ideas that are already proven to be successful.

    @lebiscuit has a beautiful Red Riding Hood game in progress: http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/comment/409879#Comment_409879

    When you see that gameplay trailer, if your first thought: "Man, I should make a game like that." Or do you just want to see more of it because it looks great?

    If anything, that seems like a massive undertaking to try and copy it! It's exhausting just thinking about it.

    If I was stealing games, I would at least wait until it was successful on the App Store to even attempt it. Why waste all that time on an unproven idea?

    If this is your first game, or if your last game(s) were flops, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

    If anything you are hurting yourself by not getting the word out about your game.

    Quietly releasing your game into the vast void of the App Store is a really tough way to go about it.

    And I think the name of app is especially important to hammer into people's minds.

    When you are starting on your project, reserve your name on the App Store. Then submit your icon, screenshots, and a binary. Then just reject the binary and upload a good one when you're ready.

    That way you can protect your name and can promote it at the same time.

    I've been doing my best to promote my new game Mosaika for a year and a half now. I was hoping this one wouldn't take so long but moving to a new house and having a baby have affected my work speed a bit!

    Anyway, you should tell as many people as you can!
    Joe






  • VolontaArtsVolontaArts Member Posts: 510
    In my opinion, people will only steal ideas that are already proven to be successful.

    @lebiscuit has a beautiful Red Riding Hood game in progress: http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/comment/409879#Comment_409879

    When you see that gameplay trailer, if your first thought: "Man, I should make a game like that." Or do you just want to see more of it because it looks great?

    not disagreeing with you, but what makes most of his game is the beautiful art... you cant steal that

    but lets say, the first time someone made angry birds... not everyone, but someone might be like i like that idea... and make it b4 you because they can program better on GS. not saying everyone would try and steal it though because like you said.. some would only copy things that already has succeeded

    so if you think you have something that someone else might want.. just keep to yourself.


  • BoomshackBarryBoomshackBarry Member Posts: 712
    There are some great points there Joe. My plan has always been to keep the game name under wraps until later in development, but I hadn't really considered how that can damage your marketing efforts.
  • BBEnkBBEnk Member Posts: 1,764
    In my opinion, people will only steal ideas that are already proven to be successful.

    @lebiscuit has a beautiful Red Riding Hood game in progress: http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/comment/409879#Comment_409879

    When you see that gameplay trailer, if your first thought: "Man, I should make a game like that." Or do you just want to see more of it because it looks great?

    not disagreeing with you, but what makes most of his game is the beautiful art... you cant steal that

    but lets say, the first time someone made angry birds... not everyone, but someone might be like i like that idea... and make it b4 you because they can program better on GS. not saying everyone would try and steal it though because like you said.. some would only copy things that already has succeeded

    so if you think you have something that someone else might want.. just keep to yourself.


    Maybe I'm wrong but Angry Birds ripped off Castle Crushers and became way more successful.

  • BBEnkBBEnk Member Posts: 1,764
    In my opinion, people will only steal ideas that are already proven to be successful.

    And you have been successful from what I've read and people have tried to copy you but with no success that I have noticed, which says a lot about what it really takes to make a great successful game.
  • StormyStudioStormyStudio United KingdomMember Posts: 3,989
    edited September 2013
    Great post Joe ( @firemaplegames ) interesting to see the opposite view point to the majority being put forward. Also you single handedly seemed to have inspired many people to try to tackle point and click adventure games (hopefully not copy your game)...(I was one... one day I'll finish it... they do take a bloody long time on your own though.)

    I guess if you make a game to your very best ability (months or years of work) and your pretty good. Another indie developer will struggle to better it. A large studio might succeed in bettering you eventually, but they're not likely to be copying you before it's released (or after) and if they do after it wont make much difference. Anyone could copy your game the day after it's released.

    A large studio who have the skills and facilities to copy an idea and run with it quickly is probably not going to be watching my blog or facebook feed to see if I have an idea worth using... but it is a great blog obviously ... http://www.stormystudio.com/blog ;)

    As @BBEnk says Angry Birds is based on gameplay from Crush the Castle (which could well be based on something else). Now thousands have copied this format but few if any seem to have made a hit with their own versions. Not sure what lesson there is to learn there... copying small successful games can make you many millions? ... or copying one of the most successful games wont make you anything?.

    I'm now thinking, I'll reserve my game name on iOS (standard development practice), (, as well as do it for Android as well, plus maybe Windows Phone too (anywhere else?, Mac App Store?).. as if you feel your game could be 'the one', putting a bit of time into reserving the name now on different platforms might save lots a few moments of regret later.

    Glad everyone is chipping in on what is an interesting discussion...

    Not a single comment on my Lemmings picture at the top though :-B
  • mataruamatarua Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 854
    Who didn't build a stack of blocks and knock them down when they were like two years old - never gets old eh! Saving your name helps, but look at a popular platformer Lep's World has 4 games by the actual developers and there's a bunch of others that trade off the name. That comes with success and 20M+ downloads however.

    There have been some great points made here and before this closes somebody should do a bulleted list of the benefits and cautions.
  • BBEnkBBEnk Member Posts: 1,764
    Great post Joe ( @firemaplegames )

    Not a single comment on my Lemmings picture at the top though :-B

    LOL, I was actually going to say you next secret game is a lemmings clone when you first started this thread, man I loved that game on my old Amiga..

  • mataruamatarua Auckland, New ZealandMember Posts: 854
    I play this on my Nexus :D So cute...

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