Please could you resend, any emails that have been sent over the past few days. My server people upgraded something so I just wanted to check I was getting all my emails.
Sorry Basseman, please resend and I will sort out ASAP.
Out of interest what is a 'good' price. And I'm not necessarily talking about just Ian's prices. Say I wanted all GFX done for a smallish game, lets say 10 backgrounds for levels and a few basic items such as floors / characters etc. What would be an average price people would charge?
GRID said: Out of interest what is a 'good' price. And I'm not necessarily talking about just Ian's prices. Say I wanted all GFX done for a smallish game, lets say 10 backgrounds for levels and a few basic items such as floors / characters etc. What would be an average price people would charge?
$1,000, $500, $200, $50? Ideas?
What kind of backgrounds are these? Is it just a tiled background or is it an image? What sized graphics are you looking for?
As for floors and characters, that's a bit vague. It depends on the types of characters, the style of the characters, if the characters are animated and the number of characters.
I do understand the general theme of your question though. There are some talented artists here. I start to get interested in hiring them but I don't know enough details. That's why I usually end up ordering artwork online... if I don't make it myself.
Received another batch of artwork from Ian recently and again, as always, fantastic work. Just check his portfolio out for examples, shoot him an email, his prices are very fair too.
Photics said: What kind of backgrounds are these? Is it just a tiled background or is it an image? What sized graphics are you looking for?
As for floors and characters, that's a bit vague. It depends on the types of characters, the style of the characters, if the characters are animated and the number of characters.
I do understand the general theme of your question though. There are some talented artists here. I start to get interested in hiring them but I don't know enough details. That's why I usually end up ordering artwork online... if I don't make it myself.
Ok lets use Bumps as an example. What would an average price artists might charge for ALL art work?
I am genuinely interested in paying for artwork. But like you said. I don't want to register my interest only to have them come back and quote $5,000
GRID said: I am genuinely interested in paying for artwork. But like you said. I don't want to register my interest only to have them come back and quote $5,000
I doubt it's $5,000. It might be more like $500, but I'm guessing. Most apps are lucky to make $500, so the range is probably between $250 and $500... which is why prices aren't publicized. There seems to be a queue, with higher paying jobs getting more priority.
Also, the rules might change if you pay a freelancer more than $500-$600... you might need to fill out a 1099 form. That's why I like ordering artwork online. It's more like burger king. It's quick and I know what to expect. The freelancers here are more like a diner... you might spend more, but you can get more customization and better service.
Photics said: I doubt it's $5,000. It might be more like $500, but I'm guessing. Most apps are lucky to make $500, so the range is probably between $250 and $500... which is why prices aren't publicized. There seems to be a queue, with higher paying jobs getting more priority.
Also, the rules might change if you pay a freelancer more than $500-$600... you might need to fill out a 1099 form. That's why I like ordering artwork online. It's more like burger king. It's quick and I know what to expect. The freelancers here are more like a diner... you might spend more, but you can get more customization and better service.
Bad analogy?! Maybe I'm just hungry.
I'm hungry too. Just finished off one of my essays (I also work full time). So it's dinner time followed by GameSalad time.
I think I might be tempted to do my own graphics then. I have plenty of experience with Photoshop as I use it in my day job. Just that with full time job, studying for a degree, and living a life it will just take that bit longer to make games
I'd place a bet that Bumps would have been in the $5000+ range in true costs for art, rather than $500... remember it was originally developed as a PC title, and then would have incurred further time/cost rejigging it for the iphone.... although I think Darren has an ongoing relationship with his very good artist, and they probably do a lot of collaborative work, which probably helps to keep upfront costs down.
The amount of artists time involved though would definately be over $5000, if based in the US or any similar economy.
It takes time to do good consistent work, and further time to think up the raw ideas for good artwork.
Im betting that Ian puts a lot more time into the work than he's charging people for... and maybe thats part of why he ended up in a bit of a financial situation. People should stop and think before questioning artist quotes... and consider how much time is being put into the work...both physically creating the assets and time spent on concepting and ideas.
Obviously its all relative though, and is going to depend on the artwork required, the quality and experience of your artist, and how much theyre in demand.
So feel free to throw your artist a bonus if they do well..... they'll always appreciate it.
Chunky Pixels is totally right... I would like to think I am pretty good at graphics, however I am shocking at business... I have spent 5 years doing graphic design for people and I pride myself on being fair, good value and charging within the means of my clients however this is the worse business model ever and I found myself in debt.
I now have a job where I am charged out at £120 /$200 per hour and yet I am happy to work for the GS member for a fraction of that (for many hours) as I love designing game graphics.
The more you can spare, the higher up the list you go. I am happy to try and do everyone's graphics eventually.
Send me an email and we will see what we can do. I currently work for 6am - 8am and the 6pm to 11pm each day and then all weekend so the best time to request is Thursday as I can put you in my workflow for the weekend. (which I work from 6am onwards)
I am going to update my portfolio site shortly as I have a tonne of work I would love to show you all.
debugdesign said: I pride myself on being fair, good value and charging within the means of my clients however this is the worse business model ever and I found myself in debt.
You are clearly a superstar of the GameSalad community.
The problem is the market. I've seen "consultants" walk in to companies and charge thousands of dollars for the bare minimum of work... or work that just wasn't very good. Is it fair? That's the market. These were consultants for large companies. I doubt they get many independent developers looking websites.
One of the common denominators for the people in this community is that most of the members are not wealthy. (The software is $99 per year and Pro is considered too expensive at $1999 per year.) Actually, getting rich is one of the main motivators for being in this community. It's a modern day gold rush.
Apps, because it's so competitive on the iTunes market, often sell for just 99¢. It's not uncommon to see less than 1000 downloads during an App's prime... so not only does that limit the money to pay artists, it also limits the money left over for developers.
If a developer works on a game for three weeks, full time, that's 120 hours. If the artist gets paid $500, that's a little over $4 an hour left for the developer. Is it better to give up and deliver pizzas or to keep following a dream?
Look at Gendai Games. It's $99 for the software. I can imagine going back in time, to the mid 80's, telling game developers that the development kit to create similar (even better) games would be only $99 per year. I think that they'd laugh at me.
Don't burn yourself out, but this is your passion. You're popular in the community. It's also a growing community. I don't know what success is out there in the future. But I'm thinking that if big success hits, developers and game companies are likely to notice those with honest and hard working ways.
The fact the development is for the appstore market shouldnt really have any bearing on how much an artist gets paid for the job at hand... if a job takes the artist 100 hours, then its worth 100 hours of compensation, regardless of how much the developer thinks it should cost.
If your doing this as a business, then you really should be looking at spending a proper budget on your art and audio if your wanting good, original, one of a kind assets.
Expecting custom artwork for a game to come in at under $500 is possibly going to work for simpler games, but for anything with a decent amount of depth and polish your going to struggle....
Remember...$500 is realistically gonna buy you maybe one weeks worth of artists time... probably not even that if theyre good, and costing their work/time properly.
Chunkypixels said: The fact the development is for the appstore market shouldnt really have any bearing on how much an artist gets paid for the job at hand... if a job takes the artist 100 hours, then its worth 100 hours of compensation, regardless of how much the developer thinks it should cost.
If your doing this as a business, then you really should be looking at spending a proper budget on your art and audio if your wanting good, original, one of a kind assets.
Expecting custom artwork for a game to come in at under $500 is probably going to work for simpler games, but for anything with a decent amount of depth and polish your going to struggle....
Remember...$500 is realistically gonna buy you maybe one weeks worth of artists time... probably not even that if theyre good, and costing their work/time properly.
+1
Freelancing is an business. Do any of you guys (girls) go into an store expecting getting stuff for half price, just because you're indie devs? :P
You are doing a lot of people an favor here Ian, but remember; pricing too low destroys the industry. And most importantly; don't burn your candle at both ends.
dhondon said: Do any of you guys (girls) go into an store expecting getting stuff for half price, just because you're indie devs? :P
You are doing a lot of people an favor here Ian, but remember; pricing too low destroys the industry. And most importantly; don't burn your candle at both ends.
I think you're missing the point. In a market where games are sold typically sold for 99¢, that doesn't leave much room for the artwork budget. If the artist charges too much, it just means the independent developer has to look elsewhere... and there are plenty of places to go. Just as it's really competitive for developers, there's also competition for the artists. There are many places to get artwork... for really cheap. That's why this is a popular thread. The prices appear to be competitive. It's also good quality work.
Is it fair that a game like Bumps had to be sold for 99¢, when a game like that on the Wii or DS would be roughly 5-20 times more expensive? That's the market and that's my point. The market is bringing prices down.
That seems the general theme in the world. Example, industrial jobs in America are shipped over seas. It's rare for someone to stay with a company (outside of government jobs) for 20-30 years and earn a nice retirement. The iPhone is made in China, where labor is cheap and not really treated that well.
What is the ethical thing to do? Do I give up and never buy anything made in China? That doesn't seem right. I've worked with hard working Chinese men and women. They have their dreams and they're fighting for a better life too. Do I give up App developing, as it contributes to the "race to the bottom"? That doesn't seem right either.
By offering "Cheap game graphics", is it a favor to the developer, or is it simply competitive pricing? If someone asked me today, "Who's the best freelance artist in the GameSalad community?" I'd probably point to this thread. There was another artist here that really impressed me, but that introductory thread wasn't memorable. It didn't generate the same buzz that happened in this thread. There are so many happy customers. It's not only important for an artist to be talented, but the artwork has to be delivered on-time. This thread shows passion, talent, professionalism. I don't see this as a favor to developers. I see it as an example of the artist's responsibility and leadership.
As GameSalad gets better and more popular, it is possible that higher paying assignments will head this way. If developers get paid more, then that's more money available for artists. The artists with a good reputation seem more likely to get the gigs.
A warning against burnout does seem to be appropriate. I don't think the warning about destroying the industry is appropriate. The industry was already messed up. Last week's episode of the Simpsons can highlight the reason why - many artists do not get to live the dream. Creating artwork can be fun, especially if that's what you like to do. That's why I like this forum. It's a way for like-minded individuals to learn, collaborate and grow.
I do it because I love to do it, however your comments about burnout could be valid so maybe a re-organisation of my processes and I may have to learn to say 'no, I can't do that for 1 month'
Hey Ian, after reading hundreds of posts on the forums, it sounds like your the ideal choice for great graphics. I am almost finished with my current project, but when I start working on a new one, I will be sure to talk to you about the graphics!
Comments
Another satisfied debugdesign customer.
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Please could you resend, any emails that have been sent over the past few days. My server people upgraded something so I just wanted to check I was getting all my emails.
Sorry Basseman, please resend and I will sort out ASAP.
$1,000, $500, $200, $50? Ideas?
As for floors and characters, that's a bit vague. It depends on the types of characters, the style of the characters, if the characters are animated and the number of characters.
I do understand the general theme of your question though. There are some talented artists here. I start to get interested in hiring them but I don't know enough details. That's why I usually end up ordering artwork online... if I don't make it myself.
I am genuinely interested in paying for artwork. But like you said. I don't want to register my interest only to have them come back and quote $5,000
Also, the rules might change if you pay a freelancer more than $500-$600... you might need to fill out a 1099 form. That's why I like ordering artwork online. It's more like burger king. It's quick and I know what to expect. The freelancers here are more like a diner... you might spend more, but you can get more customization and better service.
Bad analogy?! Maybe I'm just hungry.
I think I might be tempted to do my own graphics then. I have plenty of experience with Photoshop as I use it in my day job. Just that with full time job, studying for a degree, and living a life it will just take that bit longer to make games
Sorry for hi-jacking the post. Back to the topic
The amount of artists time involved though would definately be over $5000, if based in the US or any similar economy.
It takes time to do good consistent work, and further time to think up the raw ideas for good artwork.
Im betting that Ian puts a lot more time into the work than he's charging people for... and maybe thats part of why he ended up in a bit of a financial situation. People should stop and think before questioning artist quotes... and consider how much time is being put into the work...both physically creating the assets and time spent on concepting and ideas.
Obviously its all relative though, and is going to depend on the artwork required, the quality and experience of your artist, and how much theyre in demand.
So feel free to throw your artist a bonus if they do well..... they'll always appreciate it.
Send and Receive Data using your own Server Tutorial! | Vote for A Long Way Home on Steam Greenlight! | Ten Years Left
Cheers, Weswog
I now have a job where I am charged out at £120 /$200 per hour and yet I am happy to work for the GS member for a fraction of that (for many hours) as I love designing game graphics.
The more you can spare, the higher up the list you go. I am happy to try and do everyone's graphics eventually.
Send me an email and we will see what we can do. I currently work for 6am - 8am and the 6pm to 11pm each day and then all weekend so the best time to request is Thursday as I can put you in my workflow for the weekend. (which I work from 6am onwards)
I am going to update my portfolio site shortly as I have a tonne of work I would love to show you all.
The problem is the market. I've seen "consultants" walk in to companies and charge thousands of dollars for the bare minimum of work... or work that just wasn't very good. Is it fair? That's the market. These were consultants for large companies. I doubt they get many independent developers looking websites.
One of the common denominators for the people in this community is that most of the members are not wealthy. (The software is $99 per year and Pro is considered too expensive at $1999 per year.) Actually, getting rich is one of the main motivators for being in this community. It's a modern day gold rush.
Apps, because it's so competitive on the iTunes market, often sell for just 99¢. It's not uncommon to see less than 1000 downloads during an App's prime... so not only does that limit the money to pay artists, it also limits the money left over for developers.
If a developer works on a game for three weeks, full time, that's 120 hours. If the artist gets paid $500, that's a little over $4 an hour left for the developer. Is it better to give up and deliver pizzas or to keep following a dream?
Look at Gendai Games. It's $99 for the software. I can imagine going back in time, to the mid 80's, telling game developers that the development kit to create similar (even better) games would be only $99 per year. I think that they'd laugh at me.
Don't burn yourself out, but this is your passion. You're popular in the community. It's also a growing community. I don't know what success is out there in the future. But I'm thinking that if big success hits, developers and game companies are likely to notice those with honest and hard working ways.
If your doing this as a business, then you really should be looking at spending a proper budget on your art and audio if your wanting good, original, one of a kind assets.
Expecting custom artwork for a game to come in at under $500 is possibly going to work for simpler games, but for anything with a decent amount of depth and polish your going to struggle....
Remember...$500 is realistically gonna buy you maybe one weeks worth of artists time... probably not even that if theyre good, and costing their work/time properly.
Freelancing is an business.
Do any of you guys (girls) go into an store expecting getting stuff for half price, just because you're indie devs? :P
You are doing a lot of people an favor here Ian, but remember; pricing too low destroys the industry. And most importantly; don't burn your candle at both ends.
Is it fair that a game like Bumps had to be sold for 99¢, when a game like that on the Wii or DS would be roughly 5-20 times more expensive? That's the market and that's my point. The market is bringing prices down.
That seems the general theme in the world. Example, industrial jobs in America are shipped over seas. It's rare for someone to stay with a company (outside of government jobs) for 20-30 years and earn a nice retirement. The iPhone is made in China, where labor is cheap and not really treated that well.
What is the ethical thing to do? Do I give up and never buy anything made in China? That doesn't seem right. I've worked with hard working Chinese men and women. They have their dreams and they're fighting for a better life too. Do I give up App developing, as it contributes to the "race to the bottom"? That doesn't seem right either.
By offering "Cheap game graphics", is it a favor to the developer, or is it simply competitive pricing? If someone asked me today, "Who's the best freelance artist in the GameSalad community?" I'd probably point to this thread. There was another artist here that really impressed me, but that introductory thread wasn't memorable. It didn't generate the same buzz that happened in this thread. There are so many happy customers. It's not only important for an artist to be talented, but the artwork has to be delivered on-time. This thread shows passion, talent, professionalism. I don't see this as a favor to developers. I see it as an example of the artist's responsibility and leadership.
As GameSalad gets better and more popular, it is possible that higher paying assignments will head this way. If developers get paid more, then that's more money available for artists. The artists with a good reputation seem more likely to get the gigs.
A warning against burnout does seem to be appropriate. I don't think the warning about destroying the industry is appropriate. The industry was already messed up. Last week's episode of the Simpsons can highlight the reason why - many artists do not get to live the dream. Creating artwork can be fun, especially if that's what you like to do. That's why I like this forum. It's a way for like-minded individuals to learn, collaborate and grow.
I do it because I love to do it, however your comments about burnout could be valid so maybe a re-organisation of my processes and I may have to learn to say 'no, I can't do that for 1 month'
I just hate to see work pass me by!
Anyone else needing artwork, dont hesitate to email Ian, hes such a great, easy guy to deal with!
Cheers!
I am currently working on 3 projects so I new projects will need to be delivered after christmas...
I look forward to hearing your ideas