Just a thought about game quality...

AfterBurnettAfterBurnett Member Posts: 3,474
edited November -1 in Working with GS (Mac)
... it seems that with this whole new OS4 debacle, GameSalad MAY be in jeopardy. We all know this. Apple have stated that they want to control the quality of the apps (not quite sure how the new rules do this but that's another story). So my thought is, and this might be a little "big brother" but why doesn't Gendai step in to protect those of us serious about game creation and indeed their own investment/product and basically filter out the turds from the gems? If people keep publishing templates and half-assed attempts that have no effort or pride put into them, Apple may indeed see the need to kill us off... look what happened to RunRev. I myself hate having to sift through the way too plentiful piles of crap in the App Store (most of which are NOT GameSalad creations - LOL).

Like I said, a bit big brother, but it would enforce quality...

I'm not saying every game has to be a AAA title with outstanding graphics and sound but they should at least be GOOD, FUN, ORIGINAL games.

What do you guys think?

Comments

  • quantumsheepquantumsheep Member Posts: 8,188
    Who defines what's GOOD, FUN or ORIGINAL?

    You?

    Me?

    Personally I don't want to stifle people expressing themselves, whatever the end result! ;)

    QS :D

    Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
    Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io

  • AfterBurnettAfterBurnett Member Posts: 3,474
    Neither do I but don't you think it's going to have to happen at some point? There's a reason not just anyone can publish games for PSP etc ;)
  • Koda89Koda89 Member Posts: 275
    Well, in my defense, I'm using the templates as a base for my games, cause, well, I don't really have the time to do a lot of the setting up, and I don't honestly know how to make many of the cool things work, like digital joysticks, so any game that I need a digital joystick in, I use CodeMonkey's Joystick Control template as a base.

    HOWEVER, nearly everything that goes into the games are my ideas. And there is nothing wrong with that, right?

    EDIT: As for originality, dude, it is hard enough for the major big budget console games to be original. It is even harder for us Indie guys to be original, cause well, let's face it, just about everything has already been done in gaming, so nothing we'll make is 100% original.

    All we can hope for is to make something with all these existing elements that is an original mixture of them.
  • AfterBurnettAfterBurnett Member Posts: 3,474
    Yeah, nothing wrong with using templates, I'm talking about idiots who don't change them and upload them as their own games (yes, these people exist).

    As for originality, I really meant your own style. Art, music, whatever... not necessarily inventing new genres ;)
  • Koda89Koda89 Member Posts: 275
    Ah, then hell yeah that crap should be weeded out.
  • AfterBurnettAfterBurnett Member Posts: 3,474
    MUAH HA HA HA HAAAAAAA!
  • JamesZeppelinJamesZeppelin Member Posts: 1,927
    I dont think they are actually worried too much about GS games. I dont think it is anywhere near the same problem as all the guides and "25 hot asian women" (which are just downloaded pics from the internet) apps.

    Flash would involve tons of pseudo web app spyware filled threats according to apple.
    Its easy to forget that games may be large but is just one category and probably poses the least threat.

    Stuff like a warcraft guide or medical app that could have a backdoor.
  • IgnisIgnis Member Posts: 72
    I couldn't decide "yes" or "no" for this poll for quite some time. I ended up voting "yes", but not without hesitation. I can explain my own opinions on this...

    When it comes to quality, I don't like the idea of GS or even Apple being the "judges" on what games are good or bad from a gameplay standpoint. Apple probably gets thousands of submissions every day, from hundreds of developers not using GameSalad, and they reject most of them. I doubt they even have time to critique most submissions; they probably perform a quick view/test, run down a checklist of "standards", and make the vote. That's their business; it's their platform, and the likes of Nintendo and Sony certainly must adhere to quality standards on their gaming platforms.

    Gendai can't really step in as yet another barrier against developers without sounding hypocritical, correct? Their tagline is "Game creation for the rest of us.". If they add an asterisk to that: "*except for those developers who don't meet our quality standards", they become yet another authoritarian hurdle for developers to cross before they even face the strict and occasionally nebulous judging panel of Apple!

    My belief is, with a tool like GameSalad, errant and sloppy behavior (on the part of developers as a whole) will eventually correct itself. If some developers keep churning out bland, recycled games with mediocre graphics, 5 levels, and about 2 minutes of lasting gameplay, the consumers will reject those games, even if Apple lets that junk enter the App Store. Rejection by the consumers will force these sloppy developers to either step up their efforts or quit... because no target audience equals no response, except perhaps a slew of negative reviews.

    That being said, I firmly believe that Gendai should encourage higher quality game development. Photics stated this recently and I fully agree. But even more important, WE should encourage quality games, starting with ourselves. It's exciting to have this tool and to learn its potential, but I think many GS chefs get carried away in the ease of development (at least basic development) and they prepare to just churn out a game a.s.a.p. and move on to the next one. Please... for the same of the GS and as a community in general... step back for a second, pause, and consider. Think about your game and how it reflects upon you as a developer! Are you proud of your game? Is the gameplay still fun after 5 minutes? Did you put forth the effort to polish it up a bit? Is this a game you are proud to show to your friends and family and coworkers?

    I understand that every developer has different skills, and different schedules. We don't all have hours and hours to devote to GameSalad (but some of us do!). Likewise, we all have different skill sets. I'm a graphic designer with many years of Photoshop experience, so I am dedicated to clean, rich, polished images in my upcoming game(s). As for music and sounds, my "skills" in that arena are terrible! But as a developer committed to quality, I will find a solution... I won't just record sounds from the environment using my cell phone and import them into my game. If graphics aren't your expertise, seek out royalty-free clip art sites, or locate a budding designer who would love to have his/her graphics in an IPhone game. If audio isn't your expertise, seek out sound bites from SoundSnap and microstock websites like IStockPhoto. And if you simply have the game idea but don't want to learn GameSalad, there are probably several programmers on this site alone who would discuss a collaboration of sorts.

    My overall point is, I think game quality starts with each individual developer. Finding solutions to more challenging hurdles is part of the process; taking the easy way out is always evident in the final product. And so, while I answered "yes" to this poll, I don't think Gendai should be the judging panel for our games. We ourselves need to step it up a notch and make Gendai proud of our games! When a user sees that GameSalad logo before loading up a game, what impression do we want to give? That this is some half-assed development platform? Personally, I want that logo to scream out: "you're about to play an awesome game, so put down that coffee and strap on your seatbelt!"

    Brent
  • maniraptormaniraptor Member Posts: 81
    Koda89 said:
    EDIT: As for originality, dude, it is hard enough for the major big budget console games to be original. It is even harder for us Indie guys to be original, cause well, let's face it, just about everything has already been done in gaming, so nothing we'll make is 100% original.

    I would argue that it is far easier for an indie developer to bring an "original" game to market than a console developer, for a couple reasons. The economics of console games discourage risk-taking for publishers, who largely control what games studios can develop. Generally, these games need to fall into specific genres and follow the expected conventions and assumptions therein.

    That points to the second factor - that the gamer culture and market for console games is (or, at least is perceived by publishers/studios/media as being) more conservative than that for indie games. I'm not talking politics; I refer to resistance to genres, mechanics, gameplay, themes, and art direction that fall outside the established formulae of AAA games.

    Indie devs, on the other hand, are largely free from these pressures. Sure, we don't have the multi-million dollar budgets, but we don't have the suffocating risk that comes with those, either. We don't have to sell hundreds of thousands of units to break even. The people who buy indie games also tend to be more open to unusual or experimental games. For mobile games, it's an even more heterogeneous market - to the point that niche games are a significant part of the landscape.

    That said - I think the state of iPhone gaming is weaksauce compared to what it could be. Too many copycat apps, too little daring or polished experimentation. I blame the App Store's structure for much of the tedious banality of most apps: it's nigh impossible to stand out for any period of time, so quantity and frequency of releases become the de facto strategy for most devs. :/

    The lack of discoverability in the App Store is appalling and frustrating for me as a consumer as well as a developer. That's where much of our risk as iPhone devs comes from, and it's so frustrating because it's largely artificially created by the store's poor design. Better (broader & deeper) categorization would help. Improving the tagging might, too. User-based curation tools (like lists, a la Amazon) might help.

    If it's true that Apple doesn't make much profit off the App Store, though, my expectations for change are pretty low. I don't see them making the effort if there isn't a strong financial incentive.
  • nulonulo Member Posts: 315
    I was talking about this with a friend of mine, thinking that, every time someone on the appstore buys a game, that opens with "made with gamesalad screen" and the game is a complete cr@p, how does that customer feel about gamesalad? you can say that, hey, gamesalad was just the tool used for it, but on that customers mind, he WILL link "made with gamesalad" with cr@p. and this way, all other developers that are taking this as a serious hobby or even a career, are affected by this.

    Now you say:
    Ignis said:
    My belief is, with a tool like GameSalad, errant and sloppy behavior (on the part of developers as a whole) will eventually correct itself. If some developers keep churning out bland, recycled games with mediocre graphics, 5 levels, and about 2 minutes of lasting gameplay, the consumers will reject those games, even if Apple lets that junk enter the App Store. Rejection by the consumers will force these sloppy developers to either step up their efforts or quit... because no target audience equals no response, except perhaps a slew of negative reviews.

    and I totally agree with you on this. but how long will it take for this to happen? and when this does happen? how many more new "developers" will come in and continue this cycle? and after some time what will the gamesalad name be linked to!? quality? cr@p? waste of funny? indie developers? amateur developers?

    and all this only thinking about the appstore clients, not apple.
    what if apple starts thinking about gamesalad as the software that brings in 90% cr@p and only 10% good to the appstore? what if they start thinking its not worth keeping gamesalad as a "authorized" 3rd party software?

    I want gamesalad to continue growing, because I want to continue creating games I always wanted to create, but never could before. but i am afraid where all this "game creation for the rest of us" will get us into.

    how can gendai or even the GS community control "quality", im not sure.

    but i definitely voted "yes"
  • JamesZeppelinJamesZeppelin Member Posts: 1,927
    apple makes a lot of money from the app store. minimum 30 cents for those apps price tags....... it It came without packages, boxes, or bags!

    last fiscal year was the first year they beat out MS in terms of revenue and still with only about 10% of the market.

    I think the fact you may be referring to is there is not much money from iphones. In fact they take a hit on them for a while because there is so much money in the app store!
  • stanimationstanimation Member Posts: 406
    I'm not for any type of censorship whatsoever. That's what the ratings (stars) are for. If you happen to turn out a good/popular game you get good reviews, more stars and more sales. Crap to one may be quality to another. Ya never know.
  • scitunesscitunes Member, Sous Chef Posts: 4,047
    I voted no. The problem is not low quality games. The problem is that many of the best GS programers have been doing this the longest and so they got in when there was one price of $499 and then when the new pricing structure was implemented they were given the pro for no extra cost. So many of the best GS games do not start with the "Made with Gamesalad" logo. Some of the best GS games do have the logo, but all of the worst GS games also have the logo. There are definitely people out there that think that GS is the developer. I had a video review that someone did and they said the game was BY gamesalad. And I am starting to see reviews on my apps and others that say negative things about gamesalad as if it is a developer and not a development tool.

    I do not consider myself to be in the ranks of firemaple or tshirt, but I do have some games in development right now that take established genres and add my own mix of original twists and will be very polished. If I can afford the GS pro account I will get it before releasing those so I can have my own splash screen.

    So GS would have no need to filter anything if there were no GS splash screen. The market would decide and crap GS apps would not reflect on any of us.
  • AfterBurnettAfterBurnett Member Posts: 3,474
    Good point. Come on, Gendai, get rid of the splash screen! lol.$2000 does seem expensive for that...

    Maybe there should be an "individual" pro license for around $500 and a "company" pro license for the full price?
  • butterbeanbutterbean Member Posts: 4,315
    I agree with QS at the top, who can define what is good and original? I think overall my answer to this question is no, but not without complications...

    But when people start abusing the system and uploading templates without putting much effort into making it their own, they should be banned. That is unacceptable and what could potentially get us into trouble.
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