In the context of what I said, I'm almost certain your comment to it wasn't mean't to be amusing... it was disregarding my words – (where I was trying to explain it's not two sides of a "war") - you brushing them aside in an inciteful way, it seems to me, under the pretence of amusement...
Not the way to go.... it will never be "Diss All Forum Members Who Are Mods 'Cos They're Mods" Day - (whether I am/ or not a moderator, I'd still have written that, btw)
My 2 cents: I am not happy with the rules either. Its just getting worse and I post less and less and every post I do I am afraid to break some rule. I don't see the problem with people posting about their templates or templates WIP either. To me a template mostly is like a released game. It's fun to see what people are working on. Who cares if it is released in the App Store or on a marketplace?
The only exception I see is when a game becomes populair to make clones like Flappy Bird for example. But if that is combined into one discusion I do not see a problem either.
I had some trouble a while ago with a moderator being overzealous so I guess moderators are getting nervous of all these rules too. It's not an ideal situation at the moment.
Just putting this out there. What happens if everyone can flog whatever they want in the forums, run competitions for prizes on other sites whenever they like, refer and direct people to their websites as often as they want, etc? How would this effect the forums?
How about those who feel strongly about it grab the forum rules and rewrite them how they would like it to be and post it here. Let everyone put their two cents worth in and if a general agreement can be reached put it to GS and see what they say. If it is reasonable and the integrity of the forums is protected it might get accepted. You never know, just putting it out there.
Let's avoid this thread descending into nastiness or bickering. I had a couple of issues and explained why they were going to be changing my interactions with the forums. I've explained my thoughts in significant detail with some mods via PM and they've explained their side in a lot more detail. My opinion on my main point still stands.
What I don't want is it to become an "us vs them" situation. Most of the moderators are regular, active and generous members of this community, doing a difficult and largely thankless job.
I do think @colander is right on one point though - community input into the rules is definitely something that really helps!
@gyroscope said:
Not the way to go.... it will never be "Diss All Forum Members Who Are Mods 'Cos They're Mods" Day - (whether I am/ or not a moderator, I'd still have written that, btw)
My previous comment, which was then edited was not at all a "jab" at moderators at all or for any amusement. I made some comments In response to your response, a lot I happen to disagree upon. However It was later bought to my attention by another member that some remarks were not needed.
I try to keep things done professionally and my previous post breeched this and became personal and disrespectful, as showed in the edit. Which was why it was removed and for that purpose alone. I do hope people have more maturity than that, and disappointed that someone would mistake me to do so and project me to be that sort of person.
There is an issue here and there is not much I can say that many members haven't said already. However I am surprised in the responses from you regarding this matter. However all I can say is that there is an issue and it's not being considered to be fixed or even discussed in a two way discussion.
gyroscopeI am here.Member, Sous Chef, PROPosts: 6,598
edited July 2014
I was attempting to keep the situation calm because as I saw it, it could have become a flame war between mods and non-mods - there was a real sense i got that this could have happened...
So that's why I posted what I did to keep things calm, basically explaining it's not a "them and us" situation.
Then I read you quoting the whole of it, with your comment underneath "Comment removed due to disrespectful content."
Why would you be surprised at my response to that comment; surely whichever way it's looked at, its brushing it aside; or as comedy, making light of the relevance of it? I mean, it wasn't exactly a "oh yes, good point, gyroscope" was it?
Then @Armelline wrote amongst other words in his last post:
What I don't want is it to become an "us vs them" situation.
said as if I no one else had already said it (i.e me) - I think it best I don't say any more in this thread, there isn't any point.
As gyroscope pointed out 2 mods (tatiang and tenrdrmer) rewrote the rules so its not fair to brand all the mods with the same brush so to speak.
I did fight them but got sent to jail and banned by them as it got a little heated because i (along with many others) thought what they were proposing was far too strict.
It would of been better to see what the members wanted from this forum because its a forum after all and the definition of forum….google it :P
Maybe an online form or a poll or something just to gauge some feedback instead of simply going off and changing rules on their own would of been better.
Many have noticed I've not got a pro license anymore and have asked why, part of that reason is above.
Darren.
gyroscopeI am here.Member, Sous Chef, PROPosts: 6,598
edited July 2014
Hang on, @CodeCell Am i misunderstanding something here?
You mean another mod wrote "Comment removed due to disrespectful content." in place of something else you had written? If that's the case, I feel a bit silly now, and I apologise - I thought you were trying to be funny, writing something a mod might write... ah well. "I'll get my coat...." ;-)
@gyroscope said:
said as if I no one else had already said it (I.e me)
I know from private discussions that the mod team really does care about these issues, and that they're really keen to find a solution to these problems that makes everyone happy (impossible in itself of course). But there's still been no real interaction with the community on the matter and naturally things will escalate until they peter out.
What my original post was was an expression of dismay and dissatisfaction with some of the rules and the implementation of them. Many of my concerns have already been addressed as anyone viewing the forums and paying attention will be able to tell.
But the fundamental issue still remains and my templates/examples will stay stagnating on my hard drive until that issue is resolved.
You may have already said that you don't want it to be an "us vs them" situation, but that's only one side. I started this thread and kicked this hornet's nest. I really don't see how it's strange that I'd want to explicitly state that some kind of battle with the moderators isn't what I want. Not everything expressed in this thread is something I agree with. There's light-hearted jokes and bitter jokes.
But the moderators are both people and volunteers and the one criticism I had of them as moderators (as opposed to rule-writers) has already been addressed, partly in public by their actions and partly in PMs via their explanations.
This thread was to spur discussion not dissent, though a little of the latter is natural and to be expected, but is directed at the "authority" not the people in those roles.
At its root this issue comes down to the one that is most often repeated on the GameSalad forums - a lack of communication by those in charge. (Getting better by both company and forum staff, but there's still a long way to go.)
(It's also worth noting that the two mods I've exchanged - literally - thousands of words with in the past couple of days are the two who re-wrote the rules, which I didn't know at the time but shows they're certainly engaging with the issues, even if only in private.)
@gyroscope said:
Hang on, CodeCell Am i misunderstanding something here?
You mean another mod wrote "Comment removed due to disrespectful content." in place of something else you had written? If that's the case, I feel a bit silly now, and I apologise - I thought you were trying to be funny, writing something a mod might write... ah well. "I'll get my coat...." ;-)
No, your not "silly". I am the one who edited it. But as @colander informed me, those comments that I had made in the comment that was edited, were not needed in this thread and where not addressing the issues at hand. Therefore it was edited by me, as I had agreed that they were disrespectful and there were no need for them. It had not crossed my mind that by editing it, it would be interpreted as poking fun at mods. I haven't expressed an issue with mods editing posts, and I don't feel it is one at this stage.
This is becoming a major misunderstanding and as a result causing an extra issue that doesn't need to be here. Hopefully it sorted out. Everything back to a professional manner and I do apologies if at any stage you were offended or offended another mod.
Generally a good open discussion on something that needs fixing and surely can be fixed.
Quick shout out for the mods. You're superb and do a great job of keeping the place tidy and well mannered. It would be a lot worse without your free input. I've never even considered a 'them and us' culture regarding mods as you all post questions, help out and join in pointless conversation like the rest of us.
I'm not sure who is in charge of the rules, but can we get the ball rolling to fix a few things.
The forum seems to be running well but is definately geared more towards maintaining a nice place for newer users with fresh questions rather than fostering a place for more experienced users who would like to share or sell GameSalad related things.
Unfortunately it seems that certain rules have a really significant affect and hold back forum discussion and user development.
SHARING FREE PROJECTS
We all (after learning the basics of GameSalad) want to build interesting things and lots of us want to share projects with developers. It makes for a nice community where we can learn from each other. It's also a reason to use GameSalad for something other than your own secret projects, templates or app store releases.
I can't see any logical reason at all why we can't post free projects in individual threads.
It makes it tidier, searchable and conversation flows.
Answer:
Get rid of that rule.… solved.
With that solved lets look at some of the trickier ones:
TEMPLATE LINKS
I understand we don't want a forum where 50% of the posts are advertising things to sell.
However templates and tools help new and experienced users of the very software we're discussing.
I also appreciate that GameSalad might not want us to advertise 3rd party template websites when they have their own marketplace but this is stifling creativity and development. Banning competition apart from your signature isn't cool. Sites like Deep Blue Apps, GS Helper and individual developers produce some really handy tools and templates (and arguably some naughty clones) . By cutting off a way for them to drive people to their sites you're potentially cutting off a reason for them to develop and maintain new content and tools. Also the GS Marketplace sucks on so many levels but even if it didn't I still think the forum should be allowed to discuss and link to 3rd party websites. Competition is generally good for all the users.
Answer:
Allow people to post about a new template they've released (on the GS Marketplace or on their own or 3rd party websites). Solved
*but you're not allowed to bump the thread. If you bump it blatantly or sneakily the thread is closed (after a warning PM) and will only be searchable. Also don't just create a 3rd party section that doesn't come up in the main feed, as no one will see it and the problem will continue.
DISCUSS TEMPLATES IN DEVELOPMENT
There's an awful lot to be learned from people discussing a template they're making in exactly the same way we discuss a game we're making. Whether the end product is a game on the app store or a template for sale I see no difference.
Answer:
Allow people to start threads to discuss templates in development… If it turns into a thread thats being blatantly bumped to simply advertise a template thats for sale it should be closed and only searchable. solved
LINK TO 3RD PARTY WEBSITES
If someone is selling or giving away a useful template, tool, artwork, tutorial, music, bit of software let us share it with fellow developers.
As long as it's related to the making of Games and Apps (or the topic of conversation) then it should be allowed.
If it's a link to where you can get cheap viagra or scam then it should be deleted and the user banned. (*links to expensive viagra should be considered :-)
Answer:
Allow the posting of 3rd party websites
Don't start new threads, don't comment in old threads
This seems like a series of unfortunate events.
Answer:
Old threads where the information is out of data and no longer relevant to how GameSalad works should be closed. But if the thread is old but still completely relevant keep it open.
If someone asks a new question on the forum that's been asked a thousand times before. Either answer their question or suggest that they search the forum along with a helpful link to a relevant thread. (A thread that won't be closed for being too old). Hopefully they'll learn to search first next time.
Mods going unrewarded
I've just ordered all the mods an iPod shuffle each...Oh wait you guys have got a cool forum badge, thats a reward already… skips back and cancels iPod order… ooh Mac Pro… Mmmmmmmm
@Armelline .. thanks for posting and raising the issue, I didn't realise that was a new rule. Please don't take your toys home… its good to share.
A great list @StormyStudio and one that echoes a lot of what I said to the mods in my PMs (I originally wrote PMS here which would be equally apt). If anything, you went even further in loosening up the rules I agree completely on sharing free projects, template links. I think the issue is trickier with the templates in development section - it becomes a fine line between "here's a project I'm working on" and "here's a project I'm advertising".
I'd be a little stricter on advertising 3rd party sites, but I agree completely that things need to be relaxed on that front. My recommendation was that each site is allowed 1 thread (with some restrictions, particularly regarding bumping it), and that a comprehensive list of 3rd party sites related to all aspects of GameSalad development and game development be put together and sticky'd.
And the mods absolutely need more recognition. The reasons for my posting this thread were threefold:
Because I get some sort of weird near-sexual gratification when I complain about things. (Just kidding - but I do certainly complain when I feel there's something to complain about.)
To force some of these issues into the open and prompt discussion of them.
And, mostly, so people would know why I stopped posting stuff.
Although I levied some criticism at the mods that wasn't the motivation behind my post, and the criticism was regarding the application of the rules and not of them as people - I have enormous respect for the mods as individuals and as members of this community.
The one thread per user was intended for users selling assets (art,sound,music,templates,logic services). The only real exception is you are rapid posting stuff. There isn't a need to open 5 threads a day with free stuff. 1-2 a week? No big deal, but 5 a day will clutter the already sorry looking main page.
That being said, if you look at openstockprojects thread, it is much easier to find all the great stuff he has provided to the community, you have a single thread that many people have subscribed to and they get updates when there is something new.
Linking to 3rd party websites becomes a problem when you are linking to a site that sells templates. If your website was 100 free and only hosted your assets, them you would be ok. The original issue came up because people were complaining that free templates were linking to external marketplaces that required them to sign up to download the free asset, and the landing page usually had links to paid content.
Gs runs their own marketplace. It needs work, but they are in their right to request people don't use their forums to funnel people to a competing marketplace. Go over to newegg and post links to amaZon, see how long they last
@armelline, I'm not sure the context of who contacted you, but if you don't agree with a pm , it's always better to shoot a few mods and @forumninja a quick group pm. Many times the issue can be resolved pretty quick. These are very broad rules and can be interpreted differently. If you don't agree ask why.
@deepblueapps, I know it's been mentioned before ( by @dgackey if I remember correctly ), but in case you didn't see it, if you had connected gs with your intentions before the contest ran you could have worked something out.
@deepblueapps.
I'm not sure who sunk your free template thread, but it could have been that it was a thread started in 2012, long before the enforcing of the rules. There is also some promotion of the resource center which while very cool, isn't free.
Nothing stopping you from opening a new thread. With the amount of great stuff you guys produce it'll be on the main page often I expect, even with the rules in place
@jonmulcahy said:
The one thread per user was intended for users selling assets (art,sound,music,templates,logic services). The only real exception is you are rapid posting stuff. There isn't a need to open 5 threads a day with free stuff. 1-2 a week? No big deal, but 5 a day will clutter the already sorry looking main page.
I'm assuming there's an "if" missing there and that comment isn't directed specifically at me, and it makes perfect sense when it comes to things being sold. I'm absolutely behind each vendor being limited to one thread to advertise their wares.
That being said, if you look at openstockprojects thread, it is much easier to find all the great stuff he has provided to the community, you have a single thread that many people have subscribed to and they get updates when there is something new.
In the case of art assets provided by a third party site, it also makes sense to limit them to one thread, even if they are free. This isn't an art forum, it's a GameSalad forum. I don't think a GameSalad template offered directly to the forums is comparable to a few bits of free art hosted on website dedicated to free art.
The original issue came up because people were complaining that free templates were linking to external marketplaces that required them to sign up to download the free asset, and the landing page usually had links to paid content.
I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding the only real complaint the vast majority of users have with 3rd party template sites offering free content. It would be - I think - a very fair compromise to say that sites that sell templates can advertise free ones - and link to their site to do so - as long as the item is directly downloadable without signup. That way they get people on their site, but aren't taking advantage.
Gs runs their own marketplace. It needs work, but they are in their right to request people don't use their forums to funnel people to a competing marketplace. Go over to newegg and post links to amaZon, see how long they last
If GameSalad was the marketplace first and foremost, that would be true. But they're not. They make a tool and the other third party sites help people to get the most out of the tool. They drive users to try and to stick with GameSalad. GameSalad should accept marketplace competition as every user downloading a template from DBA or GSHelper is a user using the GameSalad software. Think about if Apple decided to ban any mention of office software on their forums because they make office software. They don't because they understand that regardless if you buy Pages or Word, you're using a Mac.
armelline, I'm not sure the context of who contacted you, but if you don't agree with a pm , it's always better to shoot a few mods and forumninja a quick group pm. Many times the issue can be resolved pretty quick. These are very broad rules and can be interpreted differently. If you don't agree ask why.
I did. I posted this thread after being told the exact rule I'd broken and why it was being enforced and after sleeping on it. I felt what I posted needed to be said even under the circumstances.
It's all tricky and I can see arguments for and against posting about template development. I guess ultimately I'd like to know that I could chat about a project in a thread and its development progress, break throughs, problems and art work design without fear of it being closed if I mentioned it was going to be a template in the end.
Individual threads for free projects is an easy one to fix though.
Oh and at no point did I think you were picking on the mods, your posts are always tip top.
@StormyStudio said:
Oh and at no point did I think you were picking on the mods, your posts are always tip top.
I kinda did a little bit - I did throw out some accusations of favouritism displayed. But the mods have reassured me through their words and actions that this isn't the case and have worked to apply certain rules more even-handedly after I highlighted some things that concerned me, so I'm happy for that bolded comment to be edited out of my original post. Only time will tell if I was wrong/things change, but I'm certainly willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
for everyone who has not actually read the rules, here they are (in relation to assets and templates):
Free assets:
If you're offering free items, by all means do so - there is absolutely no restriction to sharing a free template, artwork, sounds, etc. This is at your discretion!
The only exception to this rule is that you must own the rights to give away the assets for free to begin with.
Distributing assets or items you don’t have the rights to may result in a ban from the forums.
GS Marketplace:
The GameSalad Marketplace allows members to sell their work (templates as well as graphic and music assets) to other members. All GameSalad Marketplace sellers are permitted to create a single thread in the “[$] Market items and templates” sub forum and update this thread with links only to GameSalad marketplace listings. NO Third Party marketplace listings are permitted.
Requesting ideas for artwork and sound packs that appeal to the community, to be created and sold on the main Marketplace. We encourage you to offer your items for sale on the marketplace so they reach a broader audience - and posts presented in a manner where it's clear you're looking for ideas are completely safe. (However, please refrain from including your email in these posts or discussing prices.)
Third-party sites:
Third-party sites may not be advertised on the forums except as follows:
Links are allowed within signatures provided that the links are to sites managed/owned by you. Selling of ad space in signatures is strictly prohibited.
Each user or third party site which supplies free demos or tutorials will be allowed to maintain a single thread inside the “Community Tutorials” sub forum. All tutorials and demos must be kept inside that single thread and only links directly to the page where the free download is available are allowed. Discussing or linking to paid items is strictly prohibited.
Just to highlight further this is the rule which is causing all the fuss (and which I broke as I only skimmed the third-party sites section as I had no relation to one and didn't expect a rule affecting me to be in there):
Each user or third party site which supplies free demos or tutorials will be allowed to maintain a single thread inside the “Community Tutorials” sub forum. All tutorials and demos must be kept inside that single thread and only links directly to the page where the free download is available are allowed. Discussing or linking to paid items is strictly prohibited.
@Armelline said:
Just to highlight further this is the rule which is causing all the fuss (and which I broke as I only skimmed the third-party sites section as I had no relation to one and didn't expect a rule affecting me to be in there):
Does that still apply even if your not part of a third party website, but simply being nice?
@CodeCell said:
Does that still apply even if your not part of a third party website, but simply being nice?
Yes, that was my issue
I refuse to contribute templates/examples/demos when the only place they will be seen is at the end of a thread with no specific notification, to be seen only by users who bother to check what the latest replies to that thread are.
Oh boy, there's a lot here to digest, especially for someone like me, who hasn't been around long (I joined a year and a half ago, quit after about a month and decided to give it another go recently).
Armerlline kinda hit on this point, but my first question would be this: Is GameSalad a company that wants to sell subscriptions to its main service, or a company that wants to sell lower priced addons (templates) to existing users? You can be both, but it's a balance. If they mainly want to sell subscriptions to GameSalad, then they should welcome and encourage people to have and promote third party sites, as these things help get new users to stick around (seeing that Construct2 didn't have this kind of external community was a reason I chose to try GameSalad again over them). If they mainly want to sell addons, then they should clamp down on those, like they've done.
If the goal, though, is to make money by selling addons, they should really invest in rapidly improving their marketplace. It was awful a year an a half ago when I first started, and it hasn't changed. I always check DBA or GSHelper when I want to know if a template exists and I ignore the GS marketplace. If they invested in their own marketplace, combined with their position with the GS forums, they would be able to attract the star power and eventually those other places would fade into obscurity (those guys would still be able to make money, though, as they'd be able to sell on the GS marketplace).
I think the better position to take, however, is the one where they welcome the other marketplaces. Those guys want to attract GameSalad users to their sites, so they'll be driven (via market pressure) to create free tutorials, templates and assets to encourage people to check back. These freebies will make it easier for people to learn and stick with GameSalad, which would ultimately convert to more paying users for GS. I'm no MBA, though, and I'm sure that these conversations have been had behind closed doors, so I don't think it's fair for us to armchair quarterback the decisions... I guess I'm just trying to figure out what their position is, as right now that seem to have a "split the baby" approach.
Finally, I don't think that you need super-concrete rules like they have in place. Think more like a person and less like a software-programmer on this one. It's okay to put in place rules that ask the moderators and forum-members to consider what is reasonable (courts of law do this all the time). My favorite example of this comes from another forum I frequent, The Magic Cafe, a forum for magicians (the slight of hand variety). The Magic Cafe is solely a forum, no other product to sell. They make their money via advertising on the forum, however they have a rule in place that people who are contributing members of the forum are allowed to share things that they are working on in a reasonable way. The end result is that when a member puts a new product out on the market, they are free to start a thread discussing it. If another thread opens up where someone is looking for something, it's fine for Bob to say, "hey, I cover this in my DVD, which you can buy here..."
Even though allowing members to freely promote their stuff seems to conflict with their business strategy of selling ads, they recognize that allowing it means the forums are more valuable to users, which means more eyeballs to sell ads against in the long run. They've been the only major online forum for magicians for over a decade (others have tried to pop up and have failed), so they must be doing something right.
I recognize that this analogy is imperfect, but I still think it applies to the situation here. For example, I responded to a post recently where someone asked how to create movement for a NinJump game. It might have benefited that guy to learn that there are also template available from the other marketplaces, but I didn't dare mention that after reading through threads like this one. For a new user of GS, that means there's less information available for him and it's less likely that he'll stick with the software long enough to buy a pro license.
One last thought (I know I already said "finally"): someone mentioned the fact that the third party sites sell clones as a negative for them. I just want to point out that much of the official GS marketplace is also full of clones, even template created by GameSalad. They even say so in their description (Toys vs. Bullies for example). So I don't think that's a fair knock on the third party marketplaces
Nice post @wirelesstkd ... I like the magician forum comparison.
@wirelesstkd said:
One last thought (I know I already said "finally"): someone mentioned the fact that the third party sites sell clones as a negative for them. I just want to point out that much of the official GS marketplace is also full of clones, even template created by GameSalad. They even say so in their description (Toys vs. Bullies for example). So I don't think that's a fair knock on the third party marketplaces
I think you referring to my comment. It wasn't meant as dig at 3rd parties over the GSMarketplace, more a nod to the various indepth conversations regarding clones that have been had on this forum and in the gaming world in general.
I think you referring to my comment. It wasn't meant as dig at 3rd parties over the GSMarketplace, more a nod to the various indepth conversations regarding clones that have been had on this forum and in the gaming world in general.
Fair enough I didn't look back to see who did it, I just remember thinking it as I pushed through the whole thread... but I just want to point out that if anyone considers this a knock on the third party site, the GS Marketplace is equally as culpable
I should also point out, that the Magic Cafe clearly has a line, with regard to this stuff and people do cross it. When they do, moderators step in like they do here and sometimes people complain about them being too heavy handed... so nothing is perfect It does seem to be a little smoother over there, though, as the rules around promoting your stuff seem a little more reasonable (to me, anyway).
Really, really excellent comment there @wirelesstkd. You hit on a lot of very important points that I only grazed and do so far more clearly and articulately. I really hope the staff at GameSalad read your comment.
When they do, moderators step in like they do here and sometimes people complain about them being too heavy handed...
This will always happen. Whatever the circumstances. I was a part of a forum for a while that had only one real rule - nothing illegal. Even that was only enforced loosely - copyright infringements were ignored, for example. Still the moderators were constantly accused of being too strict.
It's a cost of doing business.
I think of it as similar to cooking. You cook a big meal for your family there's going to be something someone doesn't like. Doesn't mean everyone doesn't eat well and enjoy themselves, though.
@jonmulcahy regarding our last competition I did speak to Dan and the 2 mods in question but was told I was not allowed.
I was going to make one of our very popular competition mini games, remember the other 2 with the loopy loop jump the best distance and rotating actor through the maze? Something along those lines in html5 for the entrants to play both here and on DBA with a chance to win GS Pro but it was a no so we opened it up to win a Corona Pro and DBA RC as well.
Comments
Your right, very disrespectful and unprofessional on my behalf
@CodeCell
In the context of what I said, I'm almost certain your comment to it wasn't mean't to be amusing... it was disregarding my words – (where I was trying to explain it's not two sides of a "war") - you brushing them aside in an inciteful way, it seems to me, under the pretence of amusement...
Not the way to go.... it will never be "Diss All Forum Members Who Are Mods 'Cos They're Mods" Day - (whether I am/ or not a moderator, I'd still have written that, btw)
""You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike." - Zork temp domain http://spidergriffin.wix.com/alphaghostapps
My 2 cents: I am not happy with the rules either. Its just getting worse and I post less and less and every post I do I am afraid to break some rule. I don't see the problem with people posting about their templates or templates WIP either. To me a template mostly is like a released game. It's fun to see what people are working on. Who cares if it is released in the App Store or on a marketplace?
The only exception I see is when a game becomes populair to make clones like Flappy Bird for example. But if that is combined into one discusion I do not see a problem either.
I had some trouble a while ago with a moderator being overzealous so I guess moderators are getting nervous of all these rules too. It's not an ideal situation at the moment.
Lump Apps and My Assets
Just putting this out there. What happens if everyone can flog whatever they want in the forums, run competitions for prizes on other sites whenever they like, refer and direct people to their websites as often as they want, etc? How would this effect the forums?
How about those who feel strongly about it grab the forum rules and rewrite them how they would like it to be and post it here. Let everyone put their two cents worth in and if a general agreement can be reached put it to GS and see what they say. If it is reasonable and the integrity of the forums is protected it might get accepted. You never know, just putting it out there.
Universal Binary Template - Universal Binary Template Instructions Rev 4 (Short) - Custom Score Display Template
Let's avoid this thread descending into nastiness or bickering. I had a couple of issues and explained why they were going to be changing my interactions with the forums. I've explained my thoughts in significant detail with some mods via PM and they've explained their side in a lot more detail. My opinion on my main point still stands.
What I don't want is it to become an "us vs them" situation. Most of the moderators are regular, active and generous members of this community, doing a difficult and largely thankless job.
I do think @colander is right on one point though - community input into the rules is definitely something that really helps!
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
My previous comment, which was then edited was not at all a "jab" at moderators at all or for any amusement. I made some comments In response to your response, a lot I happen to disagree upon. However It was later bought to my attention by another member that some remarks were not needed.
I try to keep things done professionally and my previous post breeched this and became personal and disrespectful, as showed in the edit. Which was why it was removed and for that purpose alone. I do hope people have more maturity than that, and disappointed that someone would mistake me to do so and project me to be that sort of person.
There is an issue here and there is not much I can say that many members haven't said already. However I am surprised in the responses from you regarding this matter. However all I can say is that there is an issue and it's not being considered to be fixed or even discussed in a two way discussion.
I was attempting to keep the situation calm because as I saw it, it could have become a flame war between mods and non-mods - there was a real sense i got that this could have happened...
So that's why I posted what I did to keep things calm, basically explaining it's not a "them and us" situation.
Then I read you quoting the whole of it, with your comment underneath "Comment removed due to disrespectful content."
Why would you be surprised at my response to that comment; surely whichever way it's looked at, its brushing it aside; or as comedy, making light of the relevance of it? I mean, it wasn't exactly a "oh yes, good point, gyroscope" was it?
Then @Armelline wrote amongst other words in his last post:
said as if I no one else had already said it (i.e me) - I think it best I don't say any more in this thread, there isn't any point.
""You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike." - Zork temp domain http://spidergriffin.wix.com/alphaghostapps
As gyroscope pointed out 2 mods (tatiang and tenrdrmer) rewrote the rules so its not fair to brand all the mods with the same brush so to speak.
I did fight them but got sent to jail and banned by them as it got a little heated because i (along with many others) thought what they were proposing was far too strict.
It would of been better to see what the members wanted from this forum because its a forum after all and the definition of forum….google it :P
Maybe an online form or a poll or something just to gauge some feedback instead of simply going off and changing rules on their own would of been better.
Many have noticed I've not got a pro license anymore and have asked why, part of that reason is above.
Darren.
Hang on, @CodeCell Am i misunderstanding something here?
You mean another mod wrote "Comment removed due to disrespectful content." in place of something else you had written? If that's the case, I feel a bit silly now, and I apologise - I thought you were trying to be funny, writing something a mod might write... ah well. "I'll get my coat...." ;-)
""You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike." - Zork temp domain http://spidergriffin.wix.com/alphaghostapps
I know from private discussions that the mod team really does care about these issues, and that they're really keen to find a solution to these problems that makes everyone happy (impossible in itself of course). But there's still been no real interaction with the community on the matter and naturally things will escalate until they peter out.
What my original post was was an expression of dismay and dissatisfaction with some of the rules and the implementation of them. Many of my concerns have already been addressed as anyone viewing the forums and paying attention will be able to tell.
But the fundamental issue still remains and my templates/examples will stay stagnating on my hard drive until that issue is resolved.
You may have already said that you don't want it to be an "us vs them" situation, but that's only one side. I started this thread and kicked this hornet's nest. I really don't see how it's strange that I'd want to explicitly state that some kind of battle with the moderators isn't what I want. Not everything expressed in this thread is something I agree with. There's light-hearted jokes and bitter jokes.
But the moderators are both people and volunteers and the one criticism I had of them as moderators (as opposed to rule-writers) has already been addressed, partly in public by their actions and partly in PMs via their explanations.
This thread was to spur discussion not dissent, though a little of the latter is natural and to be expected, but is directed at the "authority" not the people in those roles.
At its root this issue comes down to the one that is most often repeated on the GameSalad forums - a lack of communication by those in charge. (Getting better by both company and forum staff, but there's still a long way to go.)
(It's also worth noting that the two mods I've exchanged - literally - thousands of words with in the past couple of days are the two who re-wrote the rules, which I didn't know at the time but shows they're certainly engaging with the issues, even if only in private.)
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No, your not "silly". I am the one who edited it. But as @colander informed me, those comments that I had made in the comment that was edited, were not needed in this thread and where not addressing the issues at hand. Therefore it was edited by me, as I had agreed that they were disrespectful and there were no need for them. It had not crossed my mind that by editing it, it would be interpreted as poking fun at mods. I haven't expressed an issue with mods editing posts, and I don't feel it is one at this stage.
This is becoming a major misunderstanding and as a result causing an extra issue that doesn't need to be here. Hopefully it sorted out. Everything back to a professional manner and I do apologies if at any stage you were offended or offended another mod.
Just read through this whole thread..
So I thought I'd write a massive essay...
Generally a good open discussion on something that needs fixing and surely can be fixed.
Quick shout out for the mods. You're superb and do a great job of keeping the place tidy and well mannered. It would be a lot worse without your free input. I've never even considered a 'them and us' culture regarding mods as you all post questions, help out and join in pointless conversation like the rest of us.
I'm not sure who is in charge of the rules, but can we get the ball rolling to fix a few things.
The forum seems to be running well but is definately geared more towards maintaining a nice place for newer users with fresh questions rather than fostering a place for more experienced users who would like to share or sell GameSalad related things.
Unfortunately it seems that certain rules have a really significant affect and hold back forum discussion and user development.
SHARING FREE PROJECTS
We all (after learning the basics of GameSalad) want to build interesting things and lots of us want to share projects with developers. It makes for a nice community where we can learn from each other. It's also a reason to use GameSalad for something other than your own secret projects, templates or app store releases.
I can't see any logical reason at all why we can't post free projects in individual threads.
It makes it tidier, searchable and conversation flows.
Answer:
Get rid of that rule.… solved.
With that solved lets look at some of the trickier ones:
TEMPLATE LINKS
I understand we don't want a forum where 50% of the posts are advertising things to sell.
However templates and tools help new and experienced users of the very software we're discussing.
I also appreciate that GameSalad might not want us to advertise 3rd party template websites when they have their own marketplace but this is stifling creativity and development. Banning competition apart from your signature isn't cool. Sites like Deep Blue Apps, GS Helper and individual developers produce some really handy tools and templates (and arguably some naughty clones) . By cutting off a way for them to drive people to their sites you're potentially cutting off a reason for them to develop and maintain new content and tools. Also the GS Marketplace sucks on so many levels but even if it didn't I still think the forum should be allowed to discuss and link to 3rd party websites. Competition is generally good for all the users.
Answer:
Allow people to post about a new template they've released (on the GS Marketplace or on their own or 3rd party websites). Solved
*but you're not allowed to bump the thread. If you bump it blatantly or sneakily the thread is closed (after a warning PM) and will only be searchable. Also don't just create a 3rd party section that doesn't come up in the main feed, as no one will see it and the problem will continue.
DISCUSS TEMPLATES IN DEVELOPMENT
There's an awful lot to be learned from people discussing a template they're making in exactly the same way we discuss a game we're making. Whether the end product is a game on the app store or a template for sale I see no difference.
Answer:
Allow people to start threads to discuss templates in development… If it turns into a thread thats being blatantly bumped to simply advertise a template thats for sale it should be closed and only searchable. solved
LINK TO 3RD PARTY WEBSITES
If someone is selling or giving away a useful template, tool, artwork, tutorial, music, bit of software let us share it with fellow developers.
As long as it's related to the making of Games and Apps (or the topic of conversation) then it should be allowed.
If it's a link to where you can get cheap viagra or scam then it should be deleted and the user banned. (*links to expensive viagra should be considered :-)
Answer:
Allow the posting of 3rd party websites
Don't start new threads, don't comment in old threads
This seems like a series of unfortunate events.
Answer:
Old threads where the information is out of data and no longer relevant to how GameSalad works should be closed. But if the thread is old but still completely relevant keep it open.
If someone asks a new question on the forum that's been asked a thousand times before. Either answer their question or suggest that they search the forum along with a helpful link to a relevant thread. (A thread that won't be closed for being too old). Hopefully they'll learn to search first next time.
Mods going unrewarded
I've just ordered all the mods an iPod shuffle each...Oh wait you guys have got a cool forum badge, thats a reward already… skips back and cancels iPod order… ooh Mac Pro… Mmmmmmmm
@Armelline .. thanks for posting and raising the issue, I didn't realise that was a new rule. Please don't take your toys home… its good to share.
A great list @StormyStudio and one that echoes a lot of what I said to the mods in my PMs (I originally wrote PMS here which would be equally apt). If anything, you went even further in loosening up the rules
I agree completely on sharing free projects, template links. I think the issue is trickier with the templates in development section - it becomes a fine line between "here's a project I'm working on" and "here's a project I'm advertising".
I'd be a little stricter on advertising 3rd party sites, but I agree completely that things need to be relaxed on that front. My recommendation was that each site is allowed 1 thread (with some restrictions, particularly regarding bumping it), and that a comprehensive list of 3rd party sites related to all aspects of GameSalad development and game development be put together and sticky'd.
And the mods absolutely need more recognition. The reasons for my posting this thread were threefold:
Although I levied some criticism at the mods that wasn't the motivation behind my post, and the criticism was regarding the application of the rules and not of them as people - I have enormous respect for the mods as individuals and as members of this community.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
The one thread per user was intended for users selling assets (art,sound,music,templates,logic services). The only real exception is you are rapid posting stuff. There isn't a need to open 5 threads a day with free stuff. 1-2 a week? No big deal, but 5 a day will clutter the already sorry looking main page.
That being said, if you look at openstockprojects thread, it is much easier to find all the great stuff he has provided to the community, you have a single thread that many people have subscribed to and they get updates when there is something new.
Linking to 3rd party websites becomes a problem when you are linking to a site that sells templates. If your website was 100 free and only hosted your assets, them you would be ok. The original issue came up because people were complaining that free templates were linking to external marketplaces that required them to sign up to download the free asset, and the landing page usually had links to paid content.
Gs runs their own marketplace. It needs work, but they are in their right to request people don't use their forums to funnel people to a competing marketplace. Go over to newegg and post links to amaZon, see how long they last
@armelline, I'm not sure the context of who contacted you, but if you don't agree with a pm , it's always better to shoot a few mods and @forumninja a quick group pm. Many times the issue can be resolved pretty quick. These are very broad rules and can be interpreted differently. If you don't agree ask why.
@deepblueapps, I know it's been mentioned before ( by @dgackey if I remember correctly ), but in case you didn't see it, if you had connected gs with your intentions before the contest ran you could have worked something out.
Phew that was tough to type out on my phone.
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@deepblueapps.
I'm not sure who sunk your free template thread, but it could have been that it was a thread started in 2012, long before the enforcing of the rules. There is also some promotion of the resource center which while very cool, isn't free.
Nothing stopping you from opening a new thread. With the amount of great stuff you guys produce it'll be on the main page often I expect, even with the rules in place
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I'm assuming there's an "if" missing there and that comment isn't directed specifically at me, and it makes perfect sense when it comes to things being sold. I'm absolutely behind each vendor being limited to one thread to advertise their wares.
In the case of art assets provided by a third party site, it also makes sense to limit them to one thread, even if they are free. This isn't an art forum, it's a GameSalad forum. I don't think a GameSalad template offered directly to the forums is comparable to a few bits of free art hosted on website dedicated to free art.
I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding the only real complaint the vast majority of users have with 3rd party template sites offering free content. It would be - I think - a very fair compromise to say that sites that sell templates can advertise free ones - and link to their site to do so - as long as the item is directly downloadable without signup. That way they get people on their site, but aren't taking advantage.
If GameSalad was the marketplace first and foremost, that would be true. But they're not. They make a tool and the other third party sites help people to get the most out of the tool. They drive users to try and to stick with GameSalad. GameSalad should accept marketplace competition as every user downloading a template from DBA or GSHelper is a user using the GameSalad software. Think about if Apple decided to ban any mention of office software on their forums because they make office software. They don't because they understand that regardless if you buy Pages or Word, you're using a Mac.
I did. I posted this thread after being told the exact rule I'd broken and why it was being enforced and after sleeping on it. I felt what I posted needed to be said even under the circumstances.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
Thanks @Armelline
It's all tricky and I can see arguments for and against posting about template development. I guess ultimately I'd like to know that I could chat about a project in a thread and its development progress, break throughs, problems and art work design without fear of it being closed if I mentioned it was going to be a template in the end.
Individual threads for free projects is an easy one to fix though.
Oh and at no point did I think you were picking on the mods, your posts are always tip top.
I kinda did a little bit - I did throw out some accusations of favouritism displayed. But the mods have reassured me through their words and actions that this isn't the case and have worked to apply certain rules more even-handedly after I highlighted some things that concerned me, so I'm happy for that bolded comment to be edited out of my original post. Only time will tell if I was wrong/things change, but I'm certainly willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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for everyone who has not actually read the rules, here they are (in relation to assets and templates):
Free assets:
If you're offering free items, by all means do so - there is absolutely no restriction to sharing a free template, artwork, sounds, etc. This is at your discretion!
The only exception to this rule is that you must own the rights to give away the assets for free to begin with.
Distributing assets or items you don’t have the rights to may result in a ban from the forums.
GS Marketplace:
The GameSalad Marketplace allows members to sell their work (templates as well as graphic and music assets) to other members. All GameSalad Marketplace sellers are permitted to create a single thread in the “[$] Market items and templates” sub forum and update this thread with links only to GameSalad marketplace listings. NO Third Party marketplace listings are permitted.
Requesting ideas for artwork and sound packs that appeal to the community, to be created and sold on the main Marketplace. We encourage you to offer your items for sale on the marketplace so they reach a broader audience - and posts presented in a manner where it's clear you're looking for ideas are completely safe. (However, please refrain from including your email in these posts or discussing prices.)
Third-party sites:
Third-party sites may not be advertised on the forums except as follows:
Links are allowed within signatures provided that the links are to sites managed/owned by you. Selling of ad space in signatures is strictly prohibited.
Each user or third party site which supplies free demos or tutorials will be allowed to maintain a single thread inside the “Community Tutorials” sub forum. All tutorials and demos must be kept inside that single thread and only links directly to the page where the free download is available are allowed. Discussing or linking to paid items is strictly prohibited.
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Just to highlight further this is the rule which is causing all the fuss (and which I broke as I only skimmed the third-party sites section as I had no relation to one and didn't expect a rule affecting me to be in there):
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Does that still apply even if your not part of a third party website, but simply being nice?
Yes, that was my issue
I refuse to contribute templates/examples/demos when the only place they will be seen is at the end of a thread with no specific notification, to be seen only by users who bother to check what the latest replies to that thread are.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
Past experience don't fix something thats not broke. change = bad.
Problem is, it was broken before and it's broken now.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
Oh boy, there's a lot here to digest, especially for someone like me, who hasn't been around long (I joined a year and a half ago, quit after about a month and decided to give it another go recently).
Armerlline kinda hit on this point, but my first question would be this: Is GameSalad a company that wants to sell subscriptions to its main service, or a company that wants to sell lower priced addons (templates) to existing users? You can be both, but it's a balance. If they mainly want to sell subscriptions to GameSalad, then they should welcome and encourage people to have and promote third party sites, as these things help get new users to stick around (seeing that Construct2 didn't have this kind of external community was a reason I chose to try GameSalad again over them). If they mainly want to sell addons, then they should clamp down on those, like they've done.
If the goal, though, is to make money by selling addons, they should really invest in rapidly improving their marketplace. It was awful a year an a half ago when I first started, and it hasn't changed. I always check DBA or GSHelper when I want to know if a template exists and I ignore the GS marketplace. If they invested in their own marketplace, combined with their position with the GS forums, they would be able to attract the star power and eventually those other places would fade into obscurity (those guys would still be able to make money, though, as they'd be able to sell on the GS marketplace).
I think the better position to take, however, is the one where they welcome the other marketplaces. Those guys want to attract GameSalad users to their sites, so they'll be driven (via market pressure) to create free tutorials, templates and assets to encourage people to check back. These freebies will make it easier for people to learn and stick with GameSalad, which would ultimately convert to more paying users for GS. I'm no MBA, though, and I'm sure that these conversations have been had behind closed doors, so I don't think it's fair for us to armchair quarterback the decisions... I guess I'm just trying to figure out what their position is, as right now that seem to have a "split the baby" approach.
Finally, I don't think that you need super-concrete rules like they have in place. Think more like a person and less like a software-programmer on this one. It's okay to put in place rules that ask the moderators and forum-members to consider what is reasonable (courts of law do this all the time). My favorite example of this comes from another forum I frequent, The Magic Cafe, a forum for magicians (the slight of hand variety). The Magic Cafe is solely a forum, no other product to sell. They make their money via advertising on the forum, however they have a rule in place that people who are contributing members of the forum are allowed to share things that they are working on in a reasonable way. The end result is that when a member puts a new product out on the market, they are free to start a thread discussing it. If another thread opens up where someone is looking for something, it's fine for Bob to say, "hey, I cover this in my DVD, which you can buy here..."
Even though allowing members to freely promote their stuff seems to conflict with their business strategy of selling ads, they recognize that allowing it means the forums are more valuable to users, which means more eyeballs to sell ads against in the long run. They've been the only major online forum for magicians for over a decade (others have tried to pop up and have failed), so they must be doing something right.
I recognize that this analogy is imperfect, but I still think it applies to the situation here. For example, I responded to a post recently where someone asked how to create movement for a NinJump game. It might have benefited that guy to learn that there are also template available from the other marketplaces, but I didn't dare mention that after reading through threads like this one. For a new user of GS, that means there's less information available for him and it's less likely that he'll stick with the software long enough to buy a pro license.
One last thought (I know I already said "finally"): someone mentioned the fact that the third party sites sell clones as a negative for them. I just want to point out that much of the official GS marketplace is also full of clones, even template created by GameSalad. They even say so in their description (Toys vs. Bullies for example). So I don't think that's a fair knock on the third party marketplaces
Nice post @wirelesstkd ... I like the magician forum comparison.
I think you referring to my comment. It wasn't meant as dig at 3rd parties over the GSMarketplace, more a nod to the various indepth conversations regarding clones that have been had on this forum and in the gaming world in general.
Fair enough
I didn't look back to see who did it, I just remember thinking it as I pushed through the whole thread... but I just want to point out that if anyone considers this a knock on the third party site, the GS Marketplace is equally as culpable 
I should also point out, that the Magic Cafe clearly has a line, with regard to this stuff and people do cross it. When they do, moderators step in like they do here and sometimes people complain about them being too heavy handed... so nothing is perfect
It does seem to be a little smoother over there, though, as the rules around promoting your stuff seem a little more reasonable (to me, anyway).
Really, really excellent comment there @wirelesstkd. You hit on a lot of very important points that I only grazed and do so far more clearly and articulately. I really hope the staff at GameSalad read your comment.
This will always happen. Whatever the circumstances. I was a part of a forum for a while that had only one real rule - nothing illegal. Even that was only enforced loosely - copyright infringements were ignored, for example. Still the moderators were constantly accused of being too strict.
It's a cost of doing business.
I think of it as similar to cooking. You cook a big meal for your family there's going to be something someone doesn't like. Doesn't mean everyone doesn't eat well and enjoy themselves, though.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
@jonmulcahy regarding our last competition I did speak to Dan and the 2 mods in question but was told I was not allowed.
I was going to make one of our very popular competition mini games, remember the other 2 with the loopy loop jump the best distance and rotating actor through the maze? Something along those lines in html5 for the entrants to play both here and on DBA with a chance to win GS Pro but it was a no so we opened it up to win a Corona Pro and DBA RC as well.
Darren.