My journies through Torque2D Land.
Ignis
Member Posts: 72
Yesterday, I chimed in to the discussion about iAds and GS pricing about my experiences with Torque2D, one of the leading competitors of GameSalad. That derailed the thread somewhat and some users had further questions about Torque, so I'm just starting this new topic here.
I use the term "competitor" meaning that Torque2D is an engine/platform to create games using a visual builder program that you tie together with scripting (TorqueScript) that resembles a mix of Javascript and C#/C++. The game is still designed visually, and a vast amount of features (physics, collisions, triggers, behaviors, particle engine, etc.) are built in. The scripts are primarily the "glue" between the game elements.
Torque is very much a different animal compared to GameSalad: it has several more years of development under its belt, it's faster and considerably more capable, but it takes more effort on the designer's part, including some scripting/programming (gasp!)... however, it's not as difficult as some people think it is, and I want to shed some light on my experiences with Torque versus GameSalad.
To address a few comments/questions from yesterday:
And yes, I want to make games too! I don't want to "spend hours and hours of my life debugging nonsensical computer language." My best answer to this: TorqueScript really isn't nonsensical once you learn the basics. In fact, it makes almost as much sense to me as GameSalad's visual rule/behavior construction system.
GameSalad also requires "debugging" and you all do it, every day you work with GS. When a set of behaviors/rules doesn't work, you have to check and recheck everything. Are the rules wrapped properly within each other? Did you write the correct math expression? Did you point to the correct game or actor variable? I did an equal amount of debugging in GameSalad as I do with Torque... it's just visual debugging versus text debugging, which makes it slightly easier to digest.
To clarify the naming scheme for the Torque family: this week they retired the name "TGB" (Torque Game Builder). That product is now "Torque2D"... it's the application that you use to build your game. To publish to an iDevice, you use "iTorque2D". Basically they just changed the naming scheme. They also now offer "Studio" pricing packages versus "Individual" packages, depending on how much license flexibility you need. For an independent developer, the Individual scheme seems most logical, and it remains at the $750 price point.
You are correct that it's not a simple 1-step procedure to get the game from Torque2D (the game builder) to iTorque2D (the iDevice engine). From what I can determine after searching in several forums, some script must be rewritten/added to address the specific control mechanisms of iDevices (multi-touch, tilt, etc.). I fully expect that alot of this script will be readily available to copy and paste from iTorque2D documentation, the Torque community, etc.
On this topic, what is required to bring a GameSalad game from the design application to the actual iDevice? I did not reach that point during my time using GameSalad, but I suspect it's not a 1-step procedure in itself. For example, I obviously don't have multi-touch capability on my laptop screen. Nor do I have a physical keyboard on my iPod Touch. So if I create a game in GameSalad, at some point the control schemes must be rewritten for the target device, similar to Torque. Is that correct?
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Well, that answers a few questions. Hopefully it helps anybody here who might be considering Torque versus another game engine (of which there are many: GameSalad, Unity, Cocos2D, Corona, Flash, and probably 10 more I haven't even heard of!). As I stated yesterday, my intent is not to lure anybody away from GameSalad, but rather to explain my experiences with Torque2D.
A few other things that I love about Torque versus GameSalad (short list for now; there are more):
1) Polygonal collision, not just rectangle and circle. Torque still lacks per-pixel collision, unfortunately, but polygons help create a much more realistic collision on those odd-shaped game elements.
2) Inter-actor communication. This one was a huge void for me with GameSalad. FMG eventually pointed out how you can intentionally "break" the Prototype system and force actors to share information between them (rotation, hit points, size, color, etc.), but GameSalad's approach was fairly convoluted, and one change in an actor name or variable name would destroy the entire behavior. Almost like leaving a semi-colon of a line of code! :P Torque makes the ordeal more simple: I can share any piece of information between any actor(s), and I don't need to de-construct individual "actor instances" to accomplish it.
3) Networking capabilities. I haven't gone down this path yet because my game doesn't warrant networking. However, it's nice to know that it exists.
4) Support for iDevice location services, compass, GPS, etc. As with networking, I have not attempted to use these features yet, but they now exist in the most recent release of iTorque2D.
5) Performance. Torque2D compiles into C#/C++ which is just fast, fast, fast. Gendai will not divulge any details about how GS games get compiled (fair enough, they are protecting their software). In any case, Torque can be pushed much further, optimized for speed, and cleaned up or modified at the source code level to create a sleek, efficient animal running on almost any platform.
More information is here:
http://www.torquepowered.com/products/torque-2d
Any other questions, just let me know and I can try to answer them.
Brent
I use the term "competitor" meaning that Torque2D is an engine/platform to create games using a visual builder program that you tie together with scripting (TorqueScript) that resembles a mix of Javascript and C#/C++. The game is still designed visually, and a vast amount of features (physics, collisions, triggers, behaviors, particle engine, etc.) are built in. The scripts are primarily the "glue" between the game elements.
Torque is very much a different animal compared to GameSalad: it has several more years of development under its belt, it's faster and considerably more capable, but it takes more effort on the designer's part, including some scripting/programming (gasp!)... however, it's not as difficult as some people think it is, and I want to shed some light on my experiences with Torque versus GameSalad.
To address a few comments/questions from yesterday:
Photics said:I like GameSalad too! However, it was GameSalad's limitations that steered me to Torque2D. I reached a point where it seemed like I was reducing/changing my game's principles and functionality to fit within the scope of GameSalad. I understand that some compensation and some surrender is necessary with any game platform, and that includes Torque. Torque is not perfect. It doesn't do everything I dream of. But the pleasant surprise is how much I have accomplished. To summarize: when I work in Torque, I face a new challenge with more confidence that I can achieve it, whereas working with GameSalad, it was like "I'll be lucky if I can get this aspect working exactly as I imagine it working."
I like GameSalad ... I don't want to code. Do kids grow up and say... "I want to spend hours and hours of my life debugging nonsensical computer language." ...no, they want to make games. With GameSalad, I can make games.
And yes, I want to make games too! I don't want to "spend hours and hours of my life debugging nonsensical computer language." My best answer to this: TorqueScript really isn't nonsensical once you learn the basics. In fact, it makes almost as much sense to me as GameSalad's visual rule/behavior construction system.
quantumsheep said:There is some challenge with scripting, as you say. It has to be written exactly to format/code. Sometimes I leave a semi-colon off a line, and the behavior doesn't function. However, the "debugging" is rarely a challenge. If the behavior doesn't work, I open up the "error console". There it shows which script and which line number the error is located on, along with a brief explanation of what is wrong. In most cases, I can correct it within seconds... so it's not like I'm looking for a specific pebble on a vast beach... the program tells me a fairly specific place to look for that pebble, and usually I can locate it within seconds.
Then there's debugging. I know nothing about Torque really, so this isn't aimed at that but at coding in general. I've met so many coders who get frustrated at things not working and then realising they'd simply left a semi-colon off the end of a line.
I'd get pretty frustrated rifling through lines and lines of text just to find where the issue is.
GameSalad also requires "debugging" and you all do it, every day you work with GS. When a set of behaviors/rules doesn't work, you have to check and recheck everything. Are the rules wrapped properly within each other? Did you write the correct math expression? Did you point to the correct game or actor variable? I did an equal amount of debugging in GameSalad as I do with Torque... it's just visual debugging versus text debugging, which makes it slightly easier to digest.
quantumsheep said:I'm not ready to make a video example yet. Right now, my game is still rough (in appearance) but it contains a good degree of functionality. My next step is to incorporate some artwork and nicer effects, then build a sample level. Once I do that, I should be able to produce a quick YouTube video and share my progress in Torque on this forum.
Do you have a vid or an example of anything you've done in Torque you could show us maybe?
JamesZeppelin said:The $750 price is incremental. You pay a total of $750, with each purchase adding toward that total. I have paid $100 for the basic license (without the source code). If I want access to the source code of my game, I can pay an additional $150. That would leave $500 remaining to obtain the entire iTorque2D package. I confirmed all of this with a Torque sales representative: it's $750 total, not $1000.
A couple classifications / questions on torque.
I thought you needed the 250 version to then pay 750 for itgb.
Also I don't think going from tgb to itgb is quite as easy as open your project up in the iPhone version and publish it.
As far as I know you still need to script in the iPhone controls. Last I checked a virtual joystick would be about as long of a script as this post. It seems torque has mastered drag and drop behaviors but controlling those on an idevice is another issue.
To clarify the naming scheme for the Torque family: this week they retired the name "TGB" (Torque Game Builder). That product is now "Torque2D"... it's the application that you use to build your game. To publish to an iDevice, you use "iTorque2D". Basically they just changed the naming scheme. They also now offer "Studio" pricing packages versus "Individual" packages, depending on how much license flexibility you need. For an independent developer, the Individual scheme seems most logical, and it remains at the $750 price point.
You are correct that it's not a simple 1-step procedure to get the game from Torque2D (the game builder) to iTorque2D (the iDevice engine). From what I can determine after searching in several forums, some script must be rewritten/added to address the specific control mechanisms of iDevices (multi-touch, tilt, etc.). I fully expect that alot of this script will be readily available to copy and paste from iTorque2D documentation, the Torque community, etc.
On this topic, what is required to bring a GameSalad game from the design application to the actual iDevice? I did not reach that point during my time using GameSalad, but I suspect it's not a 1-step procedure in itself. For example, I obviously don't have multi-touch capability on my laptop screen. Nor do I have a physical keyboard on my iPod Touch. So if I create a game in GameSalad, at some point the control schemes must be rewritten for the target device, similar to Torque. Is that correct?
----------
Well, that answers a few questions. Hopefully it helps anybody here who might be considering Torque versus another game engine (of which there are many: GameSalad, Unity, Cocos2D, Corona, Flash, and probably 10 more I haven't even heard of!). As I stated yesterday, my intent is not to lure anybody away from GameSalad, but rather to explain my experiences with Torque2D.
A few other things that I love about Torque versus GameSalad (short list for now; there are more):
1) Polygonal collision, not just rectangle and circle. Torque still lacks per-pixel collision, unfortunately, but polygons help create a much more realistic collision on those odd-shaped game elements.
2) Inter-actor communication. This one was a huge void for me with GameSalad. FMG eventually pointed out how you can intentionally "break" the Prototype system and force actors to share information between them (rotation, hit points, size, color, etc.), but GameSalad's approach was fairly convoluted, and one change in an actor name or variable name would destroy the entire behavior. Almost like leaving a semi-colon of a line of code! :P Torque makes the ordeal more simple: I can share any piece of information between any actor(s), and I don't need to de-construct individual "actor instances" to accomplish it.
3) Networking capabilities. I haven't gone down this path yet because my game doesn't warrant networking. However, it's nice to know that it exists.
4) Support for iDevice location services, compass, GPS, etc. As with networking, I have not attempted to use these features yet, but they now exist in the most recent release of iTorque2D.
5) Performance. Torque2D compiles into C#/C++ which is just fast, fast, fast. Gendai will not divulge any details about how GS games get compiled (fair enough, they are protecting their software). In any case, Torque can be pushed much further, optimized for speed, and cleaned up or modified at the source code level to create a sleek, efficient animal running on almost any platform.
More information is here:
http://www.torquepowered.com/products/torque-2d
Any other questions, just let me know and I can try to answer them.
Brent
Comments
1) There's a difference between debugging and typos. I don't really count missed semi-colons. most modern editors are great for pointing out small stuff like that. GameSalad is more about being able to visualize game logic. I can change it quickly and accurately. There's little slowdown between me and the creation of my game. If it was like that in Flash, I might not be here today.
2) I learned some tricks to improve actor communication. Many of the limitations I had with GameSalad don't exist today. I simply learned workarounds or I learned more about the software.
Also, $750 is a big jump from $99. Sure, I'm grumpy about iAds in Pro. But apparently, I'm not missing much.
I'm thinking if you want to convince people, don't tell us - SHOW US!
This is not an insult, but I don't feel the need to go to the Torque forums and say how they're doing it wrong... how GameSalad is better. I'm too busy for that. I'm not sure why you're doing that here. What are you trying to gain? Polygon based collision is cool, but that's not enough for me to get into computer language again.
GameSalad's programming language is English!
I picked it up.
However I plan to still use game salad. I really love it and always will.
I think it's good to not limit oneself.
I can see the benefits of both. It isn't a straight this or that only.
http://www.torquepowered.com/products/torque-2d/iphone
...while the pro (studio) version appears to be lower in price, It still looks like $750 for the iPhone version. Right there I'm already confused. Do I need more than the $750 software? Is it less? The Torque camp is not convincing me.
Are there benefits to Torque? No doubt! Yet, that $750 could go a long way with GameSalad development. If I go "Pro" I could add links to my apps and my site, build my brand and I could add iAds. All three of those features translate into more money. I don't see how Torque means more money.
It just seems like another expense and slower development times.
Plus, it might be nice to return to some actual coding
Although, like Photics, the more you use Gamesalad; the fewer and fewer roadblocks you will find. I don't feel as though GameSalad limits what I am able to do, it just limits how much of it I can have happening at once (again, the performance issue).
Simply put, it seemed that some GS users had questions yesterday about Torque, so this post is meant to answer them. It's also meant to explain why I switched to Torque, because I think some GameSalad users will find value in that. I have used both platforms, and I'm sure other GS users have used platforms aside from GameSalad and/or Torque.
Polygonal collision might not be tempting to you, but it might be huge to others. Inter-actor communication apparently isn't a big deal to some people, but for my game it's absolutely essential on a large and globally manageable scope. Torque allows for all of this, among many other things... but as I stated, Torque is not the be-all-end-all dream platform.
I will now resume progress on my game. No offense was intended to the GameSalad community.
Do you happen to know if Torque supports in-App purchasing?
iAds?
Openfeint, Crystal, GameCenter (in the future), etc?
The point about actually having a debugger, that points you in the right direction, is awesome. I use these in game industry standard engines I use at work. I guess that the simplicity of GS means I can check my rules pretty quickly and find out what's wrong. Maybe that's why I haven't missed it? A debugger, still, would be an awesome addition to GS though !
Your other points about collision, inter-actor communication and the speed of the thing are also interesting. I like shooters, and it can get pretty disheartening having to cut down the number of actors on screen, as well as the frequency of fire your actor exhibits because GS starts to chug. It's one of the reasons I've left the 1st gen devices behind...
What's it like with using fonts to display text? It's pretty time consuming making custom graphics for text when all you really want to do is show it in a pretty font or something that isn't supported...
Everyone knows I love this tool to pieces, but it has its limitations. I'm sure these will be addressed (though it's been months since Pause disappeared!). I'm here to make games, so any feedback on other tools is appreciated! The Android one by Google certainly seems interesting too, and that's free!
You're always welcome here, sir, so thanks again for taking the time to give us your experiences with Torque - and good luck with your game!
Cheers,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
It is harder to use and you won't put anything on an iPhone for under 750 usd
Sorry my post about 475. That discount was only up a few hours.
http://www.vimeo.com/torquepowered
Some of them can surely be done with Gamesalad. Great games can be done with GS!
But when you want features like more complex phisics, optimized hardware usage or 3D environments, it's hard not to think about migrating to Torque, Unity or even Corona.
For what it offers, the price is affordable.
And if you really need, it's worth learning how to program.
Just my 2 cents...
...and if my posts caused him to get back to work, that's probably a good thing? HA HA!
**goes back to the textbook**
Granted, I jumped into the frying pan when it was version 0.8, and it was just a nightmare to get the damn thing to compile. I'm hoping they streamlined it a bit, but the development and forum feels like a soap opera - it's hard to get into it (or get back into it) when you've left for so long.
For those who've come from the Windows Mobile world, Game Editor can feel like a nice hybrid between GameSalad and Torque 2D, offering both integrated C-style scripting and 2D sprite manipulation. It was recently upgraded to version 1.4.0 after a long hiatus and now supports the iPhone. Their pricing scheme is similar to GameSalad at $99/$1499 annually, and their creation engine is multiplatform - Mac/Windows/Linux.
Ignis