Vote for GameSalad to Become Open Source

2

Comments

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,096
    edited November 2016

    Afraid I see no benefit to this. Anyone in this thread who would actually contribute to the code base? I think there's a very unrealistic view here regarding how easy it is to keep open-source projects active and maintained. This isn't a community filled with programmers. It's a community filled with people who can't or don't want to program. I just don't see where all these volunteers to fix/update/maintain the codebase will come from.

    Also, remember that being open source doesn't mean the code is free to use. Copyright and trademark don't just vanish. You'd not be able to just fork GameSalad. You'd not be able to take the project in a direction not approved of by GameSalad the company.

    Really unclear as to what the big advantage here would be.

  • KevinCrossKevinCross London, UKMember Posts: 1,893

    @Armelline, as mentioned above I would definitely be interested in looking at seeing what I could do with the codebase (once it was cleaned up). I won't lie, there's always a chance that I'd look at the codebase and go "nope, no idea what I'm doing here so will leave it to someone else!".

    But with regards to this being a community made up of mostly non-programmers I would imagine that more would jump on board, those that do have the experience and know what they're doing.

    There's other game engines that are open sourced which probably have a large user base of non-programmers but still have a number of people managing the updates and new features.

    I came to GameSalad with programming experience behind me but enjoyed the simplicity of the package which allowed me to throw together things really quickly. I imagine there are quite a few others here that have some form of programming experience but chose GameSalad for similar reasons.

    I do miss programming when I'm working with GameSalad as it does get cumbersome dragging and dropping behaviors and rules and using the drop downs. I'd save a mass of time alone just being able to write in the expression window completely without having to use the dropdowns!

  • JapsterJapster Member Posts: 672
    edited November 2016

    @Armelline said:
    Afraid I see no benefit to this. Anyone in this thread who would actually contribute to the code base? I think there's a very unrealistic view here regarding how easy it is to keep open-source projects active and maintained. This isn't a community filled with programmers. It's a community filled with people who can't or don't want to program. I just don't see where all these volunteers to fix/update/maintain the codebase will come from.

    Also, remember that being open source doesn't mean the code is free to use. Copyright and trademark don't just vanish. You'd not be able to just fork GameSalad. You'd not be able to take the project in a direction not approved of by GameSalad the company.

    Really unclear as to what the big advantage here would be.

    I have to say I'd probably be happy to - I've been a software developer for about 20 years, and I honestly think that there a lot of us who simply don't have the time or inclination to learn mobile development from the ground up (ie. yet another language, way of building, compiling etc) as a way of life for trying to break into the (seemingly dead) world of income from mobile games.

    I know that other mobile dev systems, more coding from scratch orientated, would take years to learn, and years to create something - time I don't have, at my age, hence why I'm using GS!....

    I WOULD however, invest that time in coding to improve GameSalad, as I feel it would be worth it. I genuinely enjoy (despite the current frustration) creating games in it, so to remove the frustration, and turning it into a blindingly fast dev tool by getting the project manipulation functionality etc, as good as the engine, is a VERY worthwhile use of my time...

    I'm also guessing that a lot of us ARE ex-coders, and like myself, chose GS for the drag 'n' drop,'fun' and rapid dev benefits...

    Let's not forget that despite bolting on logic in 'snippets', the actual logic and code behind a good game in GS is just that - development, and requires real development (if not hand-coding) and logic/problem-solving skills - as such, I'm sure even the none-coders amongst us would have useful stuff to add to the mix... :smile:

    Finally, I understand it wouldn't be taken in a direction that GS were unhappy with, that they'd still of course own it, but surely improving the product for FREE would be worth a shot? - even if the bulk of it wasn't open-source, surely just being able to add to the codebase with enhancements, fixes, etc would work? - I'm guessing there are a LOT of proficient and possibly low-income coders out there who would happily either take up the challenge for a chance of earning extra cash, or who can bring their cool stuff, fixes, etc to the table, even more so if GS were offering, say, a bounty (even paid for by members) for specific features?

    If I could put into a communal 'bounty' pot for features, fixes, etc I personally wanted NOW/ASAP, then some enterprising GS user/member OR outside coder supplied that feature (or fix) after picking it up, and delivered a solution to GS's satisfaction, then more power/income to them! - I for one, would be MORE than happy to put towards bounties for a few things I desperately want to happen...

    I was sceptical at first too, but I have to admit, a lot of us (well-known devs too) seem to think it's a GREAT idea to let the community fix and enhance stuff, because, let's face it, it'll honestly be 10-15 years MINIMUM to add the already outstanding important requests/fixes at this rate, if that's even in the plan to get through these at all... :frowning:

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,096

    Sounds like what @ForumNinja mentioned - inviting pre-screened people to contribute to the code base - might be the best way to go, then.

    A "bounty" for the most wanted features sounds interesting, and I'd personally support it, but I bet a lot of people would feel a bit cheated if they were expected to pay for a sub and for new features.

    Guess I'll sit back and watch what happens, but I think the chance of GS open-sourcing GS is even lower than the chance of them adding every feature on the wish-list. Unless there's a dramatic shift to their business, plan, anyway. (Web creator might open new possibilities on this front.)

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227
    edited November 2016

    @Armelline said:
    Afraid I see no benefit to this.

    The benefits are huge. Once again stated at the end of this.

    @Armelline said:
    Anyone in this thread who would actually contribute to the code base?
    I think there's a very unrealistic view here regarding how easy it is to keep open-source >projects active and maintained.

    No one said it would be easy. No one said open source was a magic bullet deprived of any difficulty.
    But it would be easier than GS trying to grow the software all alone. Which they are almost not doing anymore.

    If one's arguing that something is not worth pursuing because it requires an effort then we might as well roll over and die.
    The effort in question, I might add, is to help GS team offset their lack of efforts and/or ability to add features to GameSalad.

    @Armelline said:
    This isn't a community filled with programmers. It's a
    community filled with people who can't or don't want to program.

    That's exactly why it would attract coders.
    They would be indispensable.
    A starving community + an underdeveloped software is a recipe for miracles when it comes to plugin sales.

    @Armelline said:
    I just don't see where >all these volunteers to fix/update/maintain the codebase will >come from.

    People like this:

    @scottharrrules43 said:
    I have been making plugins for corona sdk. I have been able to implement replay kit, voice to text, pebble watch, google drive, 1Password, music streaming, firebase, and yelp. They just launched there store and have made quite a bit of money :). Hopefully I can bring these plugins to gamesalad one day.

    Keep in mind, we don't need 300 of them just few great coders.

    @Armelline said:
    Also, remember that being open source doesn't mean the code is free to use. Copyright >and trademark don't just vanish. You'd not be able to just fork GameSalad. You'd not be >able to take the project in a direction not approved of by GameSalad the company.

    I hope not .
    Plugins, community code additions, would need to be vetted by GS of course.
    This would be mayhem without the approval and control by GameSalad.
    People would still have to pay subscription.

    It seems as though many have a black and white vision of open sourcing as if it was
    synonymous with relinquishing all authority, control and ability to monetize a platform.
    An underperforming platform with limited funding can often monetize much much better by become open.

    OPEN TO GETING HELP!

    Even A bigger engine like Unreal engine is open to help and they aren't doing too bad.

    @Armelline said:
    Really unclear as to what the big advantage here would be.

    1 this would be equivalent to GameSalad getting free coders, saving resources, time and money.
    Essentially getting help for free to improve the engine.
    2 Making GameSalad more competitive, attractive and feature rich.
    3 More sales/subscriptions to potential users, given the range of additional add-ons.
    4 Reinvigorating the user base, who frankly feels like doomsday is creeping around the corner on our beloved GS.
    5 Strengthen the community.
    6 Bringing a whole new type of customers and retain the ones who are leaving.
    7 Making it open Source and being able to see the code would also be a big educational benefit.
    8 Possibly saving GameSalad on the long run?

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,096
    edited November 2016

    @blob Sorry, I just don't agree. I think it would be a bad move for GameSalad, and I don't think it would lead to the flood of coders you think it would. GameSalad is already seen as something of a joke by serious coders. They're not going to come rushing over to contribute to it, for free.

    All your benefits depend on that flood of coders happening. And I just don't think it will. Who is going to spend their time tackling what's been admitted to be a messy and unweildly codebase, with no remuneration, other than people who already love the software? We're not talking about something akin to making Corona plugins. We're talking about a very different beast.

    Plugins, absolutely great. Would be wildly successful. But that's not what this thread is about - it's about open-sourcing GS. And I'm not, and wasn't suggesting open-sourcing is relinquishing control/authority. I don't think anyone's really said that.

    It's, in reality, adding MORE work to already overburdened coders. I think there's just some very unrealistic ideas in this thread about the effort that would be required on GS's part, and the rewards that would come from it. I'm all for open-sourcing if it makes sense (and I'm not convinced it does), but I don't think it's the magic bullet being implied in this thread.

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227
    edited November 2016

    @Armelline said:
    @blob Sorry, I just don't agree. I think it would be a bad move for GameSalad, and I >don't think it would lead to the flood of coders you think it would. GameSalad is already >seen as something of a joke by serious coders.

    If there's a demand, coders will come, and a demand there is!!!
    "Something of a joke" and a programming handicapped community is a great opportunity for a business savvy coder.

    IF any of the long standing issues get fixed by a plugin, wouldn't we all get that plugin?

    Many coders have expressed interest already And we don't need a flood of them

    @Armelline said:
    They're not going to come rushing over to contribute to it, for free.
    All your benefits depend on that flood of coders happening. And I just don't think it >will. Who is going to spend their time tackling what's been admitted to be a messy and >unweildly codebase, with no remuneration,

    I think we are having a misunderstanding on the meaning of open sourcing In the case of GS.
    This is why i often say hybrid open sourcing.
    Open monetized collaboration.
    Part of the code base like the publishing tools etc could also remain private.
    The contribution would absolutely not be free.
    Think of market places similar to open source softwares like Wordpress or Prestashop etc.

    @Armelline said:
    Plugins, absolutely great. Would be wildly successful. But that's not what this thread is >about - it's about open-sourcing GS.

    In order to have plugins from the community, and community improvements submitted via github for consideration, we would need access to the code base of GameSalad., hence some kind of open sourcing initiative.
    I don't think this thread ever was about straight open sourcing Hippie style.

    @Armelline said:
    It's, in reality, adding MORE work to already overburdened coders.

    Yes any new direction requires efforts. But, on the long run, it would greatly alleviate the burden on GS coders.
    Also, the income coming from plugins would allow GS to keep maintaining and policing the community adds-on.

    when you can resource you open source, you get help.

    I think we just are not thinking of the same type of open sourcing.

    from wikipedia;
    The open-source model is a more decentralized model of production, in contrast with more centralized models of development such as those typically used in commercial software companies.

    That's the part of open sourcing I think many of us like, the hybrid part comes in the form of
    keeping the subscription to use the publishing tools for examples and monetizing plugins, as well as GS team taking a percentage on these sells.

    Everyone wins and GS acquires an additional source of income.
    We make better games. more subscriptions more fundings.

  • AlchimiaStudiosAlchimiaStudios Member Posts: 1,069

    A good way to clean up a messy code-base is to well... have coders fix it. With out one on staff, open sourcing would allow others to do this, for free.

    That doesn't mean it would be quick, and yeah exposing a messy codebase could be bad because it shows how everyone how messy it is. But it won't ever get fixed unless someone tries, so it's moot.

    I personally would try and contribute to the coding, because it's in my own interest to have a better GS. Switching engines would take me 2 years of re-coding to get my current project up to speed.

    If I and others could have .exe in the same or less time, it would absolutely be worth it for me to dedicate some time every week to coding GS.

    But, it probably won't happen.

    Follow us: Twitter - Website

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,096
    edited November 2016

    @blob Okay. I don't think we've on the same page at all, but let's see...

    If there's a demand, coders will come, and a demand there is!!!

    If they can make money. And they can't. Not until plugins are supported.

    IF any of the long standing issues get fixed by a plugin, wouldn't we all get that plugin?

    Sure. But plugins are very different to the original suggestion of open-sourcing GameSalad.

    I think we are having a misunderstanding on the meaning of open sourcing In the case of GS.

    Yes. I'm really not clear on what you mean by it.

    Open monetized collaboration.

    What do you mean by this?

    The contribution would absolutely not be free.

    Who would pay them?

    Think of market places similar to open source softwares like Wordpress or Prestashop etc.

    Unsure what the relevance is here. We already have a marketplace.

    In order to have plugins from the community, and community improvements submitted via github for consideration, we would need access to the code base of GameSalad., hence the open sourcing.

    Okay, but then one of two things would have to happen first:

    • Plugin makers would need to be hooking directly into the GS code-base. People aren't going to rush to do that.

    • Plugins would need to be officially supported as plugins, like with other SDKs. That means GS or open-source contributors would need to set up a plugin system. A huge amount of work. Far bigger than I think you're taking into account.

    I don't think this thread ever was about straight open sourcing Hippie style.

    Then what is it about? Either it's open source, or it's not. All the example being thrown around are open source.

    Yes any new direction requires efforts. But, on the long run, it would greatly alleviate the burden on GS coders.

    What about when the contributors get bored?

    Also, the income coming from plugins would allow GS to keep maintaining and policing the community adds-on.

    How would they ensure they got that income? And that income would be a long way down the line. They couldn't open-source it and have people producing plugins the next day.

    I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what you're asking for.

    Would it be great in the long run? Very possibly. But it's not nearly as easy as you're making it out to be. Like with Brexit, I'd only support open-sourcing GS if there was a really solid, clear plan in place. And as yet, there's not even the start of one.

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227
    edited November 2016

    @Armelline said:
    @blob Okay. I don't think we've on the same page at all, but let's see...

    @blob said: If there's a demand, coders will come, and a demand there is!!!

    If they can make money. And they can't. Not until plugins are supported
    plugins are very different to the original suggestion of open-sourcing GameSalad.

    To be clear the first line on the first post in this thread is talking about plugins.
    This thread never was about open sourcing without a plugin economy attached to it.

    first post:

    @blob said:
    VOTE FOR GAMESALAD TO BECOME OPEN SOURCE:

    Open source = Any Coder can make a plugin to add features and grow GameSalad exponentially.
    That does not mean GameSalad would be free and no longer able to make money, on the contrary:
    GameSalad would not only make money via subscription but also by taking % on plugins vetted on the would-be Store.

    then further down:

    THE BOTTOM LINE IS: A, SUBSCRIPTION + REVENUE FROM PLUGINS, FORMULA, IS A WIN WIN FOR EVERYONE!

    @Armelline said:
    Yes. I'm really not clear on what you mean by it.

    Open monetized collaboration.

    I meant the above from the first post.

    @Armelline said:

    • Plugin makers would need to be hooking directly into the GS code-base. People aren't going to rush to do that.

    I disagree that's comes with the territory of coding plugins.
    This is a given for any platform coders would develop for. unity etc....

    @Armelline said:
    Either it's open source, or it's not. All the example being thrown around are open source.

    As described in the first post, it is not just open source and riding into the sunset.

    @Armelline said:
    What about when the contributors get bored?

    I'm not sure this is relevant or even a point.
    What about when the contributor gets eaten by tiger?
    What about when the customer getting tired to wait for new features and leaves?

    @Armelline said:
    How would they ensure they got that income? And that income would be a long way down the line. They couldn't open-source it and have people producing plugins the next day.

    Yes it won't take a day, but we have been waiting for loading time improvement for half a decade, so let's not suddenly become impatient.

    @Armelline said:
    I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what you're asking for.

    Would it be great in the long run? Very possibly. But it's not nearly as easy as you're making it out to be. Like with Brexit,

    I never said it would be easy. Maybe my positive attitude towards an open source direction can be misinterpreted that way.
    Yet, being very positive about open sourcing GS does not make one ignorant of the challenges ahead.

    @Armelline said:
    I'd only support open-sourcing GS if there was a really solid, clear plan in place. And as >yet, there's not even the start of one.

    Open source with subscription and a plugin store with some kind of mix between Unity source code access, "forking" unity repositories and unreal engine community submissions via github vetted by GS team.

    However, i don't work for GS, nor pretend to be a open source specialist.
    But a clearer plan starts with awareness and discussions like this thread.

    Furthermore, If anyone is willing to help, let's try to create a more define plan to the best of our abilities, :#

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,096
    edited November 2016

    To be clear the first line on the first post in this thread is talking about plugins.

    This thread never was about open sourcing without a plugin economy attached to it.

    What's the point of open-sourcing if they have to set up a plug-in framework first? You don't seem to be talking about open-sourcing GameSalad at all. You want them to implement a plug-in framework. That's a huge investment of time that they're clearly not willing to make.

    This is a given for any platform coders would develop for. unity etc....

    Other platforms provide a framework, and most that do aren't open source. Unity, for example, isn't open source. Selected components are, but not the bulk. GameSalad could take a similar approach, but again a ton of work would be required to do so.

    You are also mixing other improvements in that would require full open sourcing of the software. Your suggestions depend on a huge investment of time from GameSalad that's just not going to happen.

    Perhaps pick one of the two things you seem to be suggesting:

    1. Open source GameSalad to allow community contributions to fix bugs, add features and create a plug-in framework.

    2. GameSalad creates a plug-in framework.

    Honestly, neither seem likely to me. But I'm leaving it here, we're going round in circles and you don't seem to have a clear idea of what it is you actually want.

    Perhaps the best solution is again what @ForumNinja mentioned. Given selected coders access to allow them to create the plug-in framework. The framework seems to be the core of what you want. And would be amazing to have.

  • BigDaveBigDave Member Posts: 2,239
    edited November 2016

    i would be awesome enough if people like @socks @armeline and @The_Gamesalad_Guru would get access and the possibilty to add little features.

    And for us normal people there should be a possibility to add third party sdks. (advertiser deals)

    But i am also just happy gamesalad keeps existing.
    Its already a strong tool and you can make games with it that make you enough money to make a living of it.

    I am still heavly rejected by Unity I checked some game maker tutorials but I am still in love with gamesalad.

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227
    edited November 2016

    @Armelline said:
    What's the point of open-sourcing if they have to set up a plug-in framework first? You don't seem to be talking about open-sourcing GameSalad at all. You want them to implement a plug-in framework. That's a huge investment of time that they're clearly not willing to make.
    @Armelline said:
    Your suggestions depend on a huge investment of time from GameSalad that's just not >going to happen.

    If it's open source the community can also help create this framework
    That's point of being open source, partially to help creating a plugin framework

    @Armelline said:

    This is a given for any platform coders would develop for. unity etc....

    Other platforms provide a framework, and most that do aren't open source. Unity, for example, isn't open source. Selected components are, but not the bulk. GameSalad could take a similar approach, but again a ton of work would be required to do so.

    I know Unity is not open source.
    I never said every part of GameSalad needed to be open, in fact i argued against it.

    @Armelline said:
    Perhaps pick one of the two things you seem to be suggesting:

    Absolutely not.
    This is more likely to succeed and viable if both approach are taken.
    So the community can help integrating the "forking" for the plugins framework.
    And so we'd grow the software on both fronts: adds-on as well as core engine capabilities.

    Honestly, neither seem likely to me. But I'm leaving it here, we're going round in circles and you don't seem to have a clear idea of what it is you actually want.

    I do have a pretty clear idea of what i would like.
    You don't seem to have a clear idea of what i mean.

    Perhaps the best solution is again what @ForumNinja mentioned. Given selected coders access to allow them to create the plug-in framework. The framework seems to be the core of what you want. And would be amazing to have.

    I want both because one helps the other come alive and makes it more likely that both directions can be achieved with the help of the community since GS is so limited resource wise.
    UnIty plugins framework + unreal engine community submissions via github

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,096

    Okay, well we're getting nowhere with this discussion. I guess I'll just leave it at this - I support the creation of a plug-in framework, but I think this whole thread muddies the waters surrounding it.

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227

    @Armelline said:
    Okay, well we're getting nowhere with this discussion. I guess I'll just leave it at this - I support the creation of a plug-in framework,

    I support it too and more.

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227

    @Armelline

    As you know, forum discussion, on the future of GS, between members are not meant to get anywhere but to spark a debate.
    And hopefully, once in a while, translate into some kind of different outlook/direction from the GS team.

    I've always known that the chance of this happening is incredibly small.
    But i'll keep on trying, as many of us have a difficult time picturing GameSalad growing again as a game engine platform viable for competitive release.

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,096
    edited November 2016

    @blob I recommend outlining a more clear and coherent plan for what you want, then, as I honestly still don't really know, and GameSalad are not going to go to the effort to work it out.

    (I'm being serious here, I want plug-ins too, and am happy someone is pushing hard for them.)

  • ToqueToque Member Posts: 1,185

    @Armelline said:
    Okay, well we're getting nowhere with this discussion. I guess I'll just leave it at this - I support the creation of a plug-in framework, but I think this whole thread muddies the waters surrounding it.

    Isn't software that has plug ins, desiginged for plugins??

    Is it realistic to just open GS millions of lines of code up and plug ins will just magically happen?

    Doesn't sound reasonable to my brain. If bugs and simple features take months/years to add how could anyone rework GS for a plug in system?? Sounds like an immense amount of resources needed? Or just not practically possible???

  • The_Gamesalad_GuruThe_Gamesalad_Guru Member Posts: 9,919

    It's never going to happen unless gamesalad can nolonger profit from the software. By all means keep wishing. You'd have to convince the investers who have dumped millions into GS. I imagine they would profit better by selling the company.

  • KevinCrossKevinCross London, UKMember Posts: 1,893

    @The_Gamesalad_Guru said:
    It's never going to happen unless gamesalad can nolonger profit from the software. By all means keep wishing. You'd have to convince the investers who have dumped millions into GS. I imagine they would profit better by selling the company.

    While you're right it's never going to happen, the small number of votes on this poll that's been up for a week certainly isn't going to cause a stir amongst the GS heads, I don't see why they would no longer profit once it was open sourced or the system changed to allow plugins to improve the Creator. They could still have publishing servers that all games have to be published through (there's your continuous subscriptions), percentages from plugins and templates and whatnots (I'm guessing they must get some cut from GSHelper for making them the official sellers). Or they could go down the route of other game engines where the user has to pay a license fee once their apps make a certain amount of money (I don't really know how these agreements are really managed/monitored). Profit wise nothing really changes, except for maybe more subscriptions when people start seeing a better engine, one where you can sort attributes alphabetically by pressing the bar at the top of the attribute list for example.

  • AazousanAazousan Member Posts: 23

    Just to ask a question here, what would be the percentage of users actually coding something new VS those who would lay back and wait for an eventual update (include me in the 2nd list :smile: )?
    Perhaps not everyone who love making games also loves coding new features. Just my 2cents here ;)

  • IceboxIcebox Member Posts: 1,484
    edited November 2016

    I think the reason why other game developers don't take GS seriously is because they tried it long time ago. If I think about it now , you have some few drag and drop game engines that are easy to use ( GS being one of them) .

    If you compared them before.. GS was the one behind simply because it didn't have the features other 2d drag and drop game engines were providing. It didn't have custom collisions , custom fonts , html5 exporting , Pin , controlling center of mass , the loading was alot worse , the engine itself used to crash alot , you couldnt do video reward ads, you couldnt remove actors from physics calculations " can sleep " .. few quality games were published with this engine cause of how easy it was to use.. and gamesalad image was always there giving people more reason to hate on it. No wonder developers used to take it as a joke. But now , Gamesalad is much better + snap to grid and zoom features will make it even better ..It still needs more features though (google service , sprite sheets , tiles etc..). I think making a gamesalad 2 version would attract some developers to give it a shot again.

    Right now I know that GS is providing everything I need to create a successful mobile game. Whether they make it open source or not it wont change the fact that in the end i can publish a well made game with this engine, its up to the effort, skills, dedication and luck . other features are important im not saying theyr not, I want them as much as anyone else and I hope with time they will come, but if they don't then its fine for now. :)

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227
    edited November 2016

    @Armelline @The_Gamesalad_Guru

    Let me try to be a bit more detailed:

    Hybrid Open sourcing:

    1 Subscription gives you access to the publishing server (this part is not open source).

    2 Community submitted core software improvement via github.

    (this would offset the code cleaning burden GS would have in order to create "forking" connection for plugins.
    GameSalad would decide what makes it to the main branch.

    Who would be brave enough to dive in GS code base? you might ask.
    As @Japster mentioned before, many of us are ex-coders (not me) choosing GS for drag 'n' drop,'fun' and prototyping etc..
    This type of users would likely be the first group to take a stab at improving the software and creating forks for plugin integration.
    One of the incentive would be that they themselves use the software.

    Can you imagine the impact just a few able coders could have on GameSalad considering how limited GS resources are right now?

    This phase, as mentioned by @ForumNinja (who is, by the way, all for some kind open sourcing) could be open to a select few.
    Or in order to incentivize, GS could even have a bounty system for third party coder who are able to fix or implement predefine feature goals.

    Once this is in place, (yes, I realize it is not an easy feat) the plugin phase would kick in.

    3 For profit Plugins created by third party coders. 25% of the revenue goes to GameSalad.

    (for administrative purposes, maintaining the market place and reviewing plugins requirements)

    Then, As the software gets better, cleaner and leaner, more outsider coders will come to develop plugins for this starving market, increasingly bigger software and user base.

    Now i'm not naive or thinking this is easy.
    But this direction is entirely possible.
    To let outside coders have a stab at cleaning up and improving a software and then creating plugins would be less time consuming and cost less than GS trying to do it all alone.

    It's not the feasibility of such open source implementation that's unlikely, it's the likelihood of GS management adopting it that is!

    they're always going to be naysayers, I could even be my own devil's advocate,, i realize this would not be a short easy road but I like it better than a crippled software and an abandoned developer community which in turn signifies the slow death of GS.

    A slow laborious new direction with huge potentially for everyone upstream is better than a slow death.

  • mhedgesmhedges Raised on VCS Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2016

    @BigDave said:

    I am still heavly rejected by Unity I checked some game maker tutorials but I am still in love with gamesalad.

    The learning curve is quite steep, but in the long run - remember time is always our ultimate enemy - you can make a game. I prototyped a bit of a 3D version of Teeny Racers. What did it take? Time. ;) Problem is, then you have to start using other stuff like Blender for 3D modeling. It snowballs quite quickly.

    GameSalad's "limitations" (2D only, certain features and behaviors not yet available) actually make the user think outside the box. Many cool snippets of spare code are the evidence. But as well as all of you, I hope GS continues to thrive and become a better tool with the proper time and resources (cough coders and money cough).

  • LeonardDeveloperLeonardDeveloper Member Posts: 4,630

    Wow, Long time no see:) I'm going be honest; I've worked with a lot of open source projects and have maintained git projects with over 100 contributors - To keep the flow of contributors coming isn't easy and requires heavy maintenance, I just don't think its' feasible for GS.

    Nor is it economically feasible.

    I think, really, what you're looking for @blob is if GS had an open API that allowed developers to build better integrated tools/plugins.

  • LeonardDeveloperLeonardDeveloper Member Posts: 4,630

    @The_Gamesalad_Guru / ( FBS for us old timers;) ) Hit the nail on the head really, With a company like GS, that is to say, primarily VC funded its' not going to be at all likely that they would make their whole USP of their product open source.

  • tmanntmann Member Posts: 278

    Tis a no brainer - they might finally make some money.

  • The_Gamesalad_GuruThe_Gamesalad_Guru Member Posts: 9,919

    @blob said:
    @Armelline @The_Gamesalad_Guru

    Let me try to be a bit more detailed:

    Hybrid Open sourcing:

    1 Subscription gives you access to the publishing server (this part is not open source).

    2 Community submitted core software improvement via github.

    (this would offset the code cleaning burden GS would have in order to create "forking" connection for plugins.
    GameSalad would decide what makes it to the main branch.

    Who would be brave enough to dive in GS code base? you might ask.
    As @Japster mentioned before, many of us are ex-coders (not me) choosing GS for drag 'n' drop,'fun' and prototyping etc..
    This type of users would likely be the first group to take a stab at improving the software and creating forks for plugin integration.
    One of the incentive would be that they themselves use the software.

    Can you imagine the impact just a few able coders could have on GameSalad considering how limited GS resources are right now?

    This phased, as mentioned by @ForumNinja (who is, by the way, all for some kind open sourcing) could be open to a selected few.
    Or in order to incentivize, GS could even have a bounty system for third party coder who are able to fix or implement predefine feature goals.

    Once this is in place, (yes, I realize it is not an easy feat) the plugin phase would kick in.

    3 For profit Plugins created by third party coders. 25% of the revenue goes to GameSalad.

    (for administrative purposes, maintaining the market place and reviewing plugins requirements)

    Then, As the software gets better, cleaner and leaner, more outsider coders will come to develop plugins for this starving market, increasingly bigger software and user base.

    Now i'm not naive or thinking this is easy.
    But this direction is entirely possible.
    To let outside coders have a stab at cleaning up and improving a software and then creating plugins would be less time consuming and cost less than GS trying to do it all alone.

    It's not the feasibility of such open source implementation that's unlikely, it's the likelihood of GS management adopting it that is!

    they're always going to be naysayers, I could even be my own devil's advocate,, i realize this would not be a short easy road but I like it better than a crippled software and an abandoned developer community which in turn signifies the slow death of GS.

    A slow laborious new direction with huge potentially for everyone upstream is better than a slow death.

    I get all the points. I honestly don't know why I bothered commenting on this thread. It will be what it will be I guess. This is why I rarely bother with the forums anymore. Can I get the last ten minutes of my life back?

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227
    edited November 2016

    @The_Gamesalad_Guru said:
    It's never going to happen unless gamesalad can nolonger profit from the software. You'd have to convince the investers who have dumped millions into GS. I imagine they would profit better by selling the company.

    Any VC knows that a growing company sells better than an shrinking one.

    @LeonardDeveloper said:
    @The_Gamesalad_Guru / ( FBS for us old timers;) ) Hit the nail on the head really, With a company like GS, that is to say, primarily VC funded its' not going to be at all likely that they would make their whole USP of their product open source.

    The USP would remain and expand in the form of membership to access the non open source publishing server.
    Consequently, GameSalad would have an even more Unique Selling Point.
    By becoming a truly different proposition in terms of no coding engine + open business model + plugins revenue and subscriptionl.

    And considering the fact that a company doing Open Source does not give up ownership of Its source code and Patents.

    GameSalad would still own any source code that It'd release under an open-source license because GS would still owns the copyright.
    The open-source license grants others the right to examine and use the source code, but it does not affect GameSalad 's ownership of the code.

    As the copyright owner, GS could even release the source code under another license or use it in another proprietary product.
    Only if the source code were distributed containing an explicit disclaimer of copyright protection by GS would the software pass to the public domain and so no longer be owned by GS.

    This is one more point that makes this offering actually more economically viable than not, for astute VCs.

  • blobblob Member, PRO Posts: 227
    edited December 2016

    @ForumNinja @adent42

    No updates to the creator until after the webtool is done, which is said to be completed next summer.

    This will add up to 2 years without updates!!!

    Meanwhile, dear GameSalad,
    Open up the creator code base to a few able people, since you are letting it rot.
    Nothing to lose from this, all to gain.
    See where it leads us, while you focus on the Web Tool.
    Don't put all your eggs in the same tiny baskets.
    You might end up with 2 wonderful products! for 2 very different user bases and twice the income.

Sign In or Register to comment.