GSinvention copy cat template or not?

UtopianGames

Looks like GSinvention have been at it again but could you kind folk take a look at the videos and let me know your opinion please?

GSinvention template is here http://gshelper.com/product/zigzag-of-doom/

Our original triangle run is here http://gshelper.com/product/triangle-run/

The biggest give away was the camera, I spent a good amount of time on the squash rotate effect.

@uptimistik could you send us the file so Wayne can run it through his file id checker to check for id references etc?

I don't make templates or do game development anymore but I do keep an eye on things.

Thanks for your opinions in advance guys.

imjustmike

Second link is not to a template.

UtopianGames

@imjustmike said:
Second link is not to a template.

Sorry correct links fixed.

KnightStar

@UtopianGames I dunno.. Looks to me like the ZigZag template is pretty reductive of the Triangle Run template..

That said, Triangle Run has some serious beats to it in it's video, so it's clearly the more hip version..

Toque

They do like painfully familiar.

CodeMonster

Some wild accusations Darren @UtopianGames . You've always had it in with us from the start, which is understandable as we were a competing marketplace. Feel free to purchase the template so you can take a look at the file and run it through your "file id checker". @-Timo- will shed some light on this for you.

GSinvention mainly provides free products and occasionally uploads a paid template every now and then. and no Darren, we don't buy your templates so we can upload them and re-sell them, we don't buy them at all. (though you we're very good at what you did, not going to deny that)

I didn't make this template you are speaking of, but i'm 100% sure you weren't the first to make it. To be completely honest, I personally stopped making paid templates a while ago and stuck with just making free ones, and i'll continue to do so even with you constantly hammering away and trying to make us look like a "dishonest" group, because a community is about constantly giving back, not constantly throwing wild accusations around.

But im pleased you take the time out of your day to check out our website and templates, much appreciated .

P.S this reply wasn't meant to mean, just wanted to share my point of view. as you are actually a legend around here Darren and your the one who got me started with Gamesalad in the first place. cheers.

Two.E

Again... Darren? Did you even contact the Vendors for a file or information?

-Timo-

Really? It's kinda obvious that ours is much better because of the price difference of 5cents. (I hope you didn't make a similar joke before, did you? Don't want you to open a thread "gsinvention stealing jokes???") (calm down it's a joke again...)

Let me start with saying that you were good at what you did and a bit sad to see that you stopped.
I see you haven't changed and are still the smart guy you used to be. This is a really smart move on trying to making the rivals look bad. You have all the rights to doubt others for copying your templates but could at least have checked with us/me, the template creators.

I can see some of the features of both templates are a bit similar but I have no reason to copy your code. I don't even have a reason to buy your templates. I know I can do everything by myself. Even if I wanted to recreate one of your templates, why would I spend any money on your templates if I can do it myself and keep the money...

I did NOT copy any of your code. Someone blamed me before on a template a while back which I simply was able to proof by sending them the template, he apologies and it was all good again.
I will send you the template soon so you can check for yourself and I will be waiting for your apologies.
I hope it was worth the effort for you. Please next time just send us a private message first. We have always been open and honest about everything (even about mistakes) so no need to try to make us look bad in my opinion.

UtopianGames

If you could send me the file Wayne can check it out and of course I will apologize if it's clean.

As for having it in for you I don't but I do think you sail close to the wind and have certainly cloned DBA's along with other people's free and paid for templates before.

Maybe I should of contacted you 1st but wanted to see what other people thought and take it from there so sorry about that.

I feel I must say this again I honestly don't have it in for you, I don't make templates anymore and stopped a long time ago DBA closed ages ago so I only sell on GSHelper which tbh is a farse it's just imho the template looked like a clone or copy so thought I had to speak up.

No hard feelings on my part and good luck with your site, I actually think it's good to have another site that competes.

CodeMonster

@UtopianGames File has been sent.

UtopianGames

Cheers for the file, it has been checked and here's the results...

I’ve had a look at the project file you sent over, and compared it to the Triangle Run template you made.
The tool shows an overall 4-7% chance of being copied. With numbers that low it would be simple coincidence. With others we tested in the past they we’re at 96-99%.

That said, the tool does highlight some similarities in positioning of rules, within actors, within scenes.
Manually looking into the files my opinion is:

a. You and GSInvention think/develop very similar.
b. GSInvention used your template, but changed just about everything.
c. He/she had your template open at the side and used it just as a reference.
d. None of the above perhaps? There’s only a handful of ways the Triangle Run can be developed in GameSalad.

The core mechanic appears different to yours too, to achieve a similar result, but some of the ’numbers’ behind the scene are very similar.

CodeMonster

@UtopianGames I can guarantee you we didn't have access to your file or even look inside the code. Maybe you and @-Timo- have joint minds? but GSinvention takes copyrighting very seriously aswell, so its understandable as to why you wanted to get this checked in the first place. but a simple PM would definitely solve anything in the future if something was to happen like this again.

UtopianGames

Yep in future i will certainly contact you 1st but i hope i don't have too

The_Gamesalad_Guru

I make this as a general statement. There are only so many ways to skin a cat in GameSalad. It's such a narrow piece of software that most paths are an extension of public techniques. @Armelline and I once exchanged non public version of our multitouch experiments and we both came at it nearly 90% the same. In one area we came at the solution differently. Most breakthroughs in GS are usually a matter of degrees. My custom collision shape animation method used all know techniques simply cleverly assembled together. Most times it's simply a matter of the knowledge base you have and how applied.

-Timo-

Interesting to hear about a tool to check the similarities. I think it's some sort of combination of a and d. Like Aaron said, we can assure you we never had access to the template and code. I can understand your concerns though which you have all rights to. Hopefully everything is sorted now. If there is anything else you can always contact us directly.

With this dropping rate of template downloads I don't think there is much left to worry about in the future...

Best wishes,

Bowhill Games

@UtopianGames "4-7% chance of being copied" couldn't that simply be down to an image / asset having the same name e.g. Player

This is common across virtually every game I have made / template I have seen, what tool are you using? it would be interesting to see how it handles stuff like that.

I assume every behaviour / assed in a GS project is given a GUID and that is what is checked?

Two.E

Darren,
I made a template, but I am 2% sure you copied it.
Could you send me over the file and I will test it?
In fact - Just send all your files.
(Nice Job finding a loop hole on attaining Templates for free).

Adrenaline

Shots fired

UtopianGames

@Two.E said:
Darren,
I made a template, but I am 2% sure you copied it.
Could you send me over the file and I will test it?
In fact - Just send all your files.
(Nice Job finding a loop hole on attaining Templates for free).

I didnt even download it, I sent Wayne the link so he could check it out.

I've not used GS in nearly a year and have no interest in gaining other people's work, the templates looked very similar hence the thread.

Two.E

@UtopianGames Missed opportunity

Adrenaline

I think what we're seeing here is the result of some talented and passionate people trying to succeed in a dried up market where plagiarism is a real and regular concern.

Obviously ^. But the point being, it's not easy even if you're a top talent in this field...

Socks

@UtopianGames said:
have no interest in gaining other people's work

Seriously ! Lol ! This is nonsense, you've cloned other people's work numerous times !
I agree that the GSInvention triangle run thing is pretty much identical to yours, even including your squashy camera effect, but you really can't complain, as others have said the template market is full of plagiarism and cloning, it's the nature of the game, in fact the very product you are selling in this thread (link below) is described as including . .

"Lots of app store hits like Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja, Jetpack Joyride, Temple Run, Flappy Bird etc etc are included along with some original games like Triangle Run, Zombie Sniper, Kung Fu Panda, Rolling Bones, Running Wild etc etc" Deep Blue Apps

So the idea that you 'have no interest in gaining [from] other people's work' is absolute nonsense !

UtopianGames

@socks I was on about gamesalad templates, you've obviously missed the point but nvm have your say

Socks

@UtopianGames said:
@socks I was on about gamesalad templates, you've obviously missed the point but nvm have your say

Yep, GameSalad templates, that's what we're talking about, you are selling GameSalad templates - http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/93409/free-170-full-games-and-templates-free#latest (originally it was free, but is now $95) - where you clone other people's work.

In fact you, yourself, clearly state that the product you are selling contains copies of other people's work . . . it contains "Lots of app store hits like Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja, Jetpack Joyride, Temple Run, Flappy Bird etc etc" . . . and you are clearly charging money for this, $95, so which part am I not understanding ?

Like I say this is the nature of the template world, lots of people stealing other people's work to make themselves some money, so it seems odd for you to be complaining about finding yourself victim to the same thing you are happy to do to other people ?

UtopianGames

Lol I don't clone other people's templates and as far as I'm aware the games we have were all made with other sdks and a template is simply a foundation of core mechanics not the whole game.

You mention angry birds well it was the GameSalad team themselves that asked us to do that one for them so they could show GS was capable of doing similar at exhibitions they used to attend.

Anyway I think this thread should come to an end so I can stop banging my head against the wall.

Two.E

...

Socks

@UtopianGames said:
Lol I don't clone other people's templates and as far as I'm aware the games we have were all made with other sdks and a template is simply a foundation of core mechanics not the whole game.

Your logic seems to be 'it's ok if we copy other people's work if it was done in Unity or Corona or any other SDK, but if someone copies our work done in GameSalad then that's wrong' ?

Where on earth has this distinction come from ?

And I'm sure GSinvention could make the same rationalisation, "what is Darren complaining about, our template is simply a foundation of core mechanics not the whole game".

This 'our template is simply a foundation of core mechanics not the whole game' excuse has been the driver of the whole clone industry, people making 100% identical clones of '2048' or 'Fruit Ninja' (or whatever) and selling these on to anyone willing to part with $25 . . . and then wondering why the various app stores are weighed down with copy cat games, and the originators of the games can't make enough money to continue in their trade.

"I've been selling a counterfeit kit for 2048, but now there are loads of counterfeit 2048 clones on the app store, but our template was simply meant to be a foundation of the core mechanics not the whole game, I wonder what went wrong ?"

@UtopianGames said:
You mention angry birds well it was the GameSalad team themselves that asked us to do that one for them so they could show GS was capable of doing similar at exhibitions they used to attend.

. . . . and . . . drum roll . . . . you sold it as a commercial product. And it wasn't me who mentioned, Angry Birds, you mentioned angry birds, I was simply quoting your own words.

@UtopianGames said:
Anyway I think this thread should come to an end so I can stop banging my head against the wall.

The tool shows an overall 18-62% chance that if you live by the sword you die by the sword.

I just wish people would just stop ripping off other people's work, especially so if you are troubled or upset when someone does the same to you, all these distinctions, what SDK the victims of the theft worked in or whether something was copied from a template or copied from the original game, are just a sideshow, a kind of moral hierarchy design to excuse one form of theft while looking down on another form, it's all appropriation, whether you clone a game you saw on the app store in the hope of cashing in on its success or whether you buy a template and painstakingly copy the code line for line, it doesn't make any difference to the originator of the game, nor does the originator probably care that they made their game in Unity and all the copies appearing on the App Store come from a template put together in Corona (or whatever), all these distinctions are a distraction from the real world fact that their intellectual property is being taken from them by people looking to gain from their work.

Chunkypixels

@UtopianGames Ive always been a big fan of your ability and your work, but I think you really owe someone a public apology here...

You publicly fired a very big accusation... and was then provided evidence that pretty much proved the innocence of the accused parties. (only 4-7% chance of wrongdoing, by your own investigation). However, you haven't actually apologised, like you said you would, if proven wrong.

"If you could send me the file Wayne can check it out and of course I will apologize if it's clean."

I do think @Socks is correct... that there is a certain level of hypocrisy in your argument, but Ive got to give it to you, you've definitely brought life back to the forum... Ive not seen this kind of thread for a good while, and good to see some old faces popping up

But yup... probably time for a little bit of humble-pie and all that...

AlchimiaStudios

UtopianGames

@Chunkypixels Yes i agree...

Sorry to the guys at GSinvention for the public blast i should of contacted you 1st, while it looks very similar to our work there's no proof so i will take your word that you in no way copied our template and you simply had the same gameplay idea as me.

All the best going forward with GSinvention.

Braydon_SFX

Alright, I think this thread has had its run. Glad the issue was resolved. Let's remember to keep it classy.

Closed.