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Kiip Monetization Revenue Share

MChewieMChewie Posts: 32Member, Chef Emeritus
edited January 2012 in News from the Dev Team
Hi everyone,
We are pleased to see so much interest in the forums about Kiip. We're as excited as you are about the new free-to-play revenue opportunities that Kiip brings to our Pro user community.

While we have been focused on finishing up Kiip's technical implementation, we've been slow in responding to some of the questions raised in the forums. To address the most commonly raised question: GameSalad developers will receive the same revenue share from Kiip as if they were integrating the service independently. More specifically, GameSalad developers will receive 50% of the collected revenue from Kiip-enabled games. As an added benefit, GameSalad developers will have a seamless implementation of Kiip via new monetization behaviors in Creator.

We feel the Kiip partnership is an excellent opportunity for our Pro users to enhance their revenue and player retention with a powerful new feature, and is another step in providing added value to the Pro membership. We will continue to release more details regarding the Kiip partnership as we approach product launch in the coming weeks.

-MChewie

Comments

  • LiquidGameworksLiquidGameworks Anchorage, AKPosts: 956Member, Sous Chef
    Thanks for the clarification. This should quiet the rabble rabble. :)
  • osucowboy18osucowboy18 Posts: 1,307Member
    Excellent news GameSalad! That's all any of us wanted - clarification. Thanks again, and I can't wait for the release of this great feature.

    - Alex
  • GLGAMESGLGAMES SingaporePosts: 988Member
  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Posts: 9,934Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef
    So Wait a min…. You mean to tell me this whole time you had no plans at all to screw over your user base? Shocking!!!!
    ;;)

    But on a more positive note. Bring it on. Im ready and waiting to give it a try.

    It's not my fault I never learned to take responsibility for anything. ;)

  • entersimonentersimon Posts: 269Member
    Is GameSalad taking a percentage of the collected revenue as well?

    Check out my daily app development blog at TheIndieDev.com

  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Posts: 9,934Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef
    @entersimon The most you would get if you went directly through Kiip is 50%. Therefore it doesn't matter nor should they have to disclose any further arraignments with Kiip

    It's not my fault I never learned to take responsibility for anything. ;)

  • entersimonentersimon Posts: 269Member
    @tenrdrmer So long as there is potential revenue being made by GameSalad from advertisements on an app that isn't owned by GameSalad, it does matter. I don't know if this is the case, and I will wait for a yellow sticky reply before I explain anything further. I do appreciate your reply, but I don't have any money invested in you, nor do I have any agreements made with you that would potentially affect my business. I would appreciate it if you would allow a GameSalad employee to answer my question rather than attempting to speak on their behalf. This is a serious subject for many people.

    Check out my daily app development blog at TheIndieDev.com

  • PhoticsPhotics Posts: 4,172Member
    edited January 2012
    @entersimonI would appreciate it if you would allow a GameSalad employee to answer my question rather than attempting to speak on their behalf. This is a serious subject for many people.
    What?! GameSalad didn't hire Simon? When I loaded this thread, I was wondering what your 8-BIT Icon would look like... if you had one... but you don't.


    Anyway, I don't see the issue here. From the way I understand things, it works like this...
    • If I went to Kiip directly, I'd get 50% of advertisement revenue.
    • If I use Kiip through GameSalad, I'd also get 50% of advertisement revenue.

    So what's the issue/question here. Are you angry if GameSalad gets a commission? If so... so what? If it's something like 50% me, 40% Kiip and 10% GameSalad, that doesn't really change things. It's still the same percentage for developers.

    As history has shown, I'm not one to shy from critiquing GameSalad. When they do something wrong, I generally have let them know about it. Wow, I've certainly lit up this forum many times before. But here, GameSalad appears to be doing the right thing.

    I'm somewhat dubious toward the value of Kiip. I'm not currently planning to use it either. (I think my Pro subscription ends in six days. I'm not convinced that Kiip and a few other Pro features are worth the $499 investment. ) Yet, I learned about Kiip through GameSalad. If GameSalad gets a piece of the action from Kiip, while not actually cutting away from my piece of the pie, I think that's reasonable. I've seen lots of GameSalad issues to get angry about. I don't think this is one of them.
  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Posts: 9,934Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef
    @entersimon
    It doesn't matter. Kiip pays the Dev 50% either way. If they are paying GameSalad a portion of Kiip's cut to include their Ad platform in GameSalads SDK its none of our business IMO. Thats an arraignment between them and they have every right to not disclose that information. Hell they may even be banned from disclosing that side of the agreement, But at the end of the day its no of our business. Im not commenting on their behalf. they would never tell you that. Your their customer. Im just telling you how I see it.

    It's not my fault I never learned to take responsibility for anything. ;)

  • GLGAMESGLGAMES SingaporePosts: 988Member
    No matter what is it I bet this revenue beats iads hands down. Iads gives like .60 per 1000 impressions. If I had 1000 on kiip, that would be great already.Be
  • entersimonentersimon Posts: 269Member
    @Photics
    Yeah, no go on the job. Very nice people work at GameSalad, but I'd really rather not talk about my experience after the interviews either. hahaha

    My point here is that the money being earned is in a direct relationship to how successful your app is in being able to deliver ads to consumers. I'd have no problem at all giving up a cut to GameSalad if this were a free service, but I'm paying $500. It's essentially paying $500 to have an opportunity to give them more money. Kiip on the other hand is making money solely on the ad revenue. If you can't get the ads out there, then they make zero from your work and you make zero from theirs. We should not be so willing to give away money that our hard work has brought forth. That being said, I don't have a problem with GameSalad taking a cut so long as we see something from it. My suggestion would be to maintain a total of revenue earned by GS from your apps through Kiip (this should be simple since they're acting as a middleman anyway) and have it act as a credit toward your next Pro subscription.

    This would be good for a few reasons:

    1: This would make using Kiip more valuable and attractive to GameSalad's users. Like you, I'm doubtful of it right now, but if it also helped pay for my GS subscription I'd be more open to trying it out. More Pro Users using Kiip, more potential revenue for GS.
    2: GameSalad gets money from ad revenue on our games after the $500 mark has been achieved.
    3: Pro Users have the opportunity to pay for their subscription via making quality games. That would feel highly satisfying. There isn't money lost here for GameSalad. They just don't get your extra $500 on top.
    4. If you do exceptionally well, then there is more of a reason to stick with GameSalad since you don't have an added annual fee. Even if you only bring in a credit of $200 for your GS subscription via Kiip during the year, $300 is less of a harsh pill to swallow than $500 is, and GS would keep another Pro User around for another year.
    5. This would be very inviting to new potential Pro Users.

    I'm not trying to tear things down here, I'm trying to get a better understanding of what's going on in relation to where my money is going. If I'm helping GameSalad make money directly from how well my apps are doing, I sure as heck want to see some kind of reward from it.

    This is still conjecture though. For all we know, they aren't taking a cut at all.

    Check out my daily app development blog at TheIndieDev.com

  • LeonardDeveloperLeonardDeveloper Posts: 4,630Member
    I don't see why everyone is complaining about GS taking a cut, if GS takes a cut its bound to be small and were still earning more money even more then when you were pro before...
    ---------------------
    I hope to upgrade to pro this summer! :)
  • POMPOM Posts: 2,599Member
    edited January 2012
    It's not a competition about who earns more, us or GS,
    If you are using kiip as an indie developer you should get 50% of the revenue,
    Gamesalad gives you EXACTLY this, end of story.
    No one should intervene in GS revenue as a company, it's not relevant.

    Roy.
  • beefy_clyrobeefy_clyro Posts: 5,390Member
    Ya not seeing the issue here, a along as i get the 50% i would get going independently i don't see the problem.
    If GS have made a deal and make money from it as well then brilliant, they need to make money to survive!
  • LeonardDeveloperLeonardDeveloper Posts: 4,630Member
    Im fine with GS taking a cut, In fact i think its a great idea! Id prefer if they took a big cut and lowered the price of pro! :D
  • entersimonentersimon Posts: 269Member
    @P-O-M

    It would be relevant because it would be money earned off of your app's success in addition to money you've already paid to use the feature. That would be double dipping regardless of what your personal percentage of take home would be. That means they would be making money on the art, sound, logic, idea that you came up with above and beyond the money spent to use the feature...

    It's not a question of this being a competition. It's a question of why should there be money made off of our apps if we're paying for the service? It could be a 25% Kiip, 5% GS, 70% developer split, and it would still technically be double dipping by GS, regardless of your positive feelings on the subject.

    All I'm asking for (if in fact GS is taking any cut) is a reward for making them money. Reread my Pro-Subscription credit idea. There would be nothing but positives to come out of that, and you wouldn't have to give away a "big cut" to see a lowered price for Pro.

    Check out my daily app development blog at TheIndieDev.com

  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Posts: 9,934Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef
    GameSalad is not earning anything off your Game. If they are receiving money. It is because Kiip is paying them to provide you access to the feature.

    Remember You CANNOT use Kiip with GS unless GS takes the time to add it in. Therefore Kiip has sold them on the idea and are paying to have their platform included in the GameSalad SDK. Where Kiip is getting the money to Pay GS is from the money they would keep from their Revenue. If you don't want Kiip or GS or anyone else profiting off the access you have been given then don't use the feature.

    I dont think the price of pro should change. I think its dead on, and the improvements they are making, is making it worth the cost.

    It's not my fault I never learned to take responsibility for anything. ;)

  • PhoticsPhotics Posts: 4,172Member
    edited January 2012
    @tenrdrmer
    I dont think the price of pro should change. I think its dead on, and the improvements they are making, is making it worth the cost.
    I enjoyed reading your post until that last line. The price of pro is broken.

    I haven't successfully published an HTML5 game with GameSalad because it's either too slow, doesn't support all of the features as a regular GameSalad game, or my project was the wrong size. Additionally, I haven't published any Android games because of the sound lag. And ultimately, rival software is cheaper.

    I got Pro when it was $99 for a year. At that price, I don't feel so bad about delays with new features or issues with updates. But at $499... that's like Adobe upgrade pricing... and that software is far FAR better than GameSalad. If I upgrade my Adobe software every two years, I'd get the latest versions of Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash, Dreamweaver and other programs in the Creative Suite. GameSalad is simply not on this level. And if I don't upgrade my Adobe software, I still get to use the old version of the software.
  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Posts: 9,934Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef
    edited January 2012
    @Photics

    Fair Enough. Thats at least a reasonable and Understandable argument.

    My opinion is its better to leave the price alone and let the features catch up. Don't get me wrong. I'd pay less if they offered. But I think Its appropriate to leave it as is based on whats to come. Of course If whats to come takes a full Year. Well that would definitely be a bad and unfortunate thing.

    It's not my fault I never learned to take responsibility for anything. ;)

  • entersimonentersimon Posts: 269Member
    @tenrdrmer

    Unless Kiip has managed to revolutionize the advertisement model, then they don't get money until an impression or click through occurs. There is no money changing hands until an ad request has been fulfilled. Whether it be an impression or a click through. The app is the vehicle for distribution. Like a billboard. It would be akin to renting land that has the use of a billboard included, then using the billboard to hold ads. Then each time you put an ad up, or get a sale from an ad, the person who found the ad to put up gets a commission...and so does the owner of the land...

    If you didn't pay for the land and the use of the billboard, then decide to put ads on that billboard, no one would get money. Above that, the more successful your billboard is, the more money changes hands.

    Of course it's about making money above anything else. If it were strictly about what the users wanted, then there would have been a push for AdMob implementation about a year ago.

    I just don't like the idea of double dipping on the backs of users paying a PREMIUM price for services. Not one bit. If you want to get commission from impressions or click throughs on a person's app, then don't charge them for the ability to put ads on the app as well...

    Or reward us for making you money. Pro Subscription credit. ;D

    Check out my daily app development blog at TheIndieDev.com

  • POMPOM Posts: 2,599Member
    edited January 2012
    @Entersimon
    I understand the argument you are bringing , but in the most sincer way and honesty I think it's flawed and unprofessional ( not you, just your opinion on this matter - no offense).
    Using Kiip service gives you 1$ for every 2$ you make, what they do with their buck is their business and not yours nor mine, they can buy a nice LCD , they can give some of it to GS , they can spend it in the casino , it doesn't matter, it's their money.

    Like I said before I'll say it again, Once you use Kiip in your game(when it's available) you will get 50% , and that is exactly the service you paid for.
    That's my opinion on this matter.

    Cheers
    Roy.
  • The_Gamesalad_GuruThe_Gamesalad_Guru Posts: 9,913Member
    I think we all have a choice, we can pay for pro or not, we can use GS or not, we can use Klip or not. But in my opinion GS could make more money by not making this a pro feature as most users are not pro. Why slim down your potential revenue stream for a feature that seems to enhance and monetize the free version for GS? Yes features like tables and such make sense to make pro an attractive purchase but making Klip a pro feature seems kinda like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
  • JohnPapiomitisJohnPapiomitis Posts: 6,256Member
    edited January 2012
    @ Entersimon

    Yeah not to sound rude but i have no idea why your making such a big deal about this and dragging it on. Like everyone has said already you get the same percent as if you applied it without gamesalad. Whatever deal klip decides to do with gamesalad for implementing there feature is none of yours, mine, or anyones business. There completly in there right to do so and thats how business works. If your that opposed to it you can always not use gamesalad and put klip in yourself, and you would get the same exact percentage.
  • RacetotheMoonRacetotheMoon Posts: 323Member
    edited January 2012
    There's a number of things that bother me with GS's implementing Kiip, but what bothers me the most is that they're doing this in lieu of adding other, more proven, methods of monetization, eg. Ad-mob. Which, IMO, is essential if you're going to make anything of $ubstance in the Android market. I can only imagine, but my guess is they've held off on implementing Ad-mob because there's no backdoor revenue for GS in doing so. That's fine, I understand the investors want to see a return, but adding value to the product by providing extra options is never a bad thing.

    I really like Kiip as a concept, but honestly there's simply too many factors working against it to be a boon for anyone long term.
  • entersimonentersimon Posts: 269Member
    @ JohnPapiomitis

    To believe these deals don't affect your business in any way since you're getting what you "normally would" with Kiip is short sightedness. As a paying member of this community I am simply asking a question that brings me concern as it affects not just my relationship with GS, but all of ours. TBH it doesn't truly matter what anyone other than a GS employee says on the matter because as I had stated previously, I don't have any investments or agreements made with anyone here other than GS. Until there is some sort of official word from the company, then my question has not been answered. Just because you aren't concerned about where all the money goes that your work is bringing forth doesn't mean everyone feels the same way. It is very important for me to know exactly who is making money off of my work, and how. This is important for short term decisions as well as long term ones. There is also an issue of precedence at hand here, and I'd like to make sure I voice my concerns now before it's too late. If it doesn't concern you, then that's how you run your business and you're entitled to do it that way. I simply have a different outlook on things. The "dragging on" is nothing more than me clarifying the logic behind my mindset based on new input. If no one replied to me in ways that got me thinking then I'd have nothing to reply about. It should be seen as a positive thing that there is discussion here.

    Just to be clear, I'm not taking any offense to arguments made that oppose my view. I haven't seen any personal attacks trying to shift the subject. That's a good thing.

    @RacetotheMoon

    Agreed.

    Check out my daily app development blog at TheIndieDev.com

  • GLGAMESGLGAMES SingaporePosts: 988Member
    Ant eta on kiip arrival? My apps are getting 15k ad request but only 3k filled due to us only having iads. If we had other advertising methods those unfilled request would hv really made us more revenue
  • PjhcyPjhcy Posts: 6Member
    @frybaconstudios kiip isn't offered to free members as they only have 20-25 advertisers and three of them went bankrupt including kodak, a group buying startup and cant remember the third so there isn't enough demand to go around. Kiip charges a flat fee so excess inventory is not sold versus auction style where most ad inventory gets sold even if cheap. Kiip isn't about revenue at all but about user retention for developers and user acquisition for advertisers. Mega Jump developers already said revenue is so so from kiip but offers the players rewards while tap joy tripled their revenue before the ban. If you are looking for revenue then tap joy incentive installs pay the most but not sure now after apple ban. Backflip studios developer of paper toss and the dragon game and various others top games uses Nexase which sell more inventory with 200 advertisers and auction format inventiry bidding.

    What Kiip is doing right now is taking the list of games from game salad and using that to attract advertisers currently focusing on the Sports games. If I were to use Kiip, it would be after all the distribution channels are set up and advertisers are found. Kiip only monetize US users because advertisers don't want to pay the same flat fee for less valuable traffic from other countries so Canadian, south America, africa, Asia and European traffic is not monetized. UK pays about 1.2-1.3 times price of US user while Asia is less than 1/6 of a US user and Africa is even less and Canadian traffic is about 1/4 of US visitor for most mobile ad networks. I'm not sure how Kiip's flat rate model would work in this case or they would adjust accordingly. To give you an idea of Kiip's capacity, over 31million rewardable moments were seen in December on the Kiip network. Brian claims an overall entering email rate of 15-20 percent. Assume 20 percent so 6.2 million rewards sent to emails. Advertisers have different metrics such as claiming the reward, signing up for website like scorebig to use $25 coupon,etc. We assume 100 percent redemption rate, no duplicate ineligible signups, average pay of $1 per email sent though early advertisers pay $0.25' and all advertiser user action metrics met. This is $6.2 million revenue a month very optimistically and Kiip keeps half or 3.1 million a month though if one has more users they negotiate higher than 50 percent like Mega Jump. The kiip network has more than 35 million users who downloaded an app Kiip enabled so that works out to be less than $0.10 if dividing developer revenue of 3.1 million by all users. This is making a few optimistic assumptions and that cpm would be $200 per thousand kiip moments shown and I assume on cpm basis it would be lower in reality.
  • GLGAMESGLGAMES SingaporePosts: 988Member
    edited January 2012
    C'mon then pls throw in more monetization methods into GS :P
  • shark1505shark1505 Posts: 75Member
    Is this already available for pro members?
  • GLGAMESGLGAMES SingaporePosts: 988Member
    no it's out yet
This discussion has been closed.