Worrys about Flash CS5

paulitsmepaulitsme Member Posts: 109
edited November -1 in Introductions
Adobe flash cs5 is going to launch on the 12th of april and it allows you to make native iphone apps. Is anyone else worried that we are going to have to compete with thousands flash developers.

If it's easy for people to port old flash games to the iphone then the appstore is about to get flooded.


  • JamesZeppelinJamesZeppelin Member Posts: 1,927
    There are also some great games that will be ported form flash.
    And no matter what great games will always stand out.
    I think it will be fine.

    I dont think it will bring more games as much as the people who only made soundboards and that sort of stuff will likely have some better games....

  • EastboundEastbound Member, BASIC Posts: 1,074
    I'm somewhat worried, but I think it is unwarranted for the most part. However, should I become discontented with Gamesalad, this gives me a pretty attractive option.
  • paulitsmepaulitsme Member Posts: 109
    Yeah your right it will take time for them to adapt games. I just hope apple are getting some more staff in to handle the extra app approvals.

    Hopefully it won't be too bad. I just worry it's going to get even harder to get noticed.
  • xactoxacto Member Posts: 146
    No worries. It is just another programing language - and games live and die on concept and playability. Besides, have you ever created a game in flash? (yawn) I will stick with GS, thank-you-very-much.

  • design219design219 Member Posts: 2,273
    Oh, I'm excited! I've worked in Flash for years, and vector graphics will kick butt. Universal apps for both iPad and iPhone should be easy.
  • xactoxacto Member Posts: 146
    It will be interesting to see how vector graphics will work on the ipad/iphone... Wonder if it will be as fast as running it with-in flash? Not sure if I would personally code a game in flash-but creating other general apps would be nice.

  • synthesissynthesis Member Posts: 1,693
    This means that there will be a MASSIVE tidal wave of apps this summer.
    The app development pace will steepen sharply with CS5 since this opens iPhone development up to 100s of thousands of devs currently not participating...but want to. Plus the amount of pre-developed content out there is enormous...that will just need re-tooling to transport to the app store.

    The app store dynamic is going to change BIG TIME this summer.
  • firemaplegamesfiremaplegames Member Posts: 3,206
    I am very excited for the CS5 release. I have been a Flash programmer/animator for 10 years now. I will be able to translate all my games and skills to the iPhone/iPad.

    It will allow the hundreds of thousands of great Flash games to be reprogrammed for the new devices. And also allow the Flash programmers access to the new Touch interfaces.

    I love playing games, so anything that lets people make them easier, is great for me!

    It is not a GameSalad killer by any means, just like Unity and Torque aren't either. Regardless of the technology available, great games are difficult to make!
  • JamesZeppelinJamesZeppelin Member Posts: 1,927
    Yes I agree win fmg 100%
    like i said in my post towards the top there are great flash games out there
    it's always so easy to focus on the negative which actually is more of a killer for the industry as a whole than any other fill-in-the-blank killer.
  • eboyeboy Member Posts: 239
    I think Adobe pulled a dumb dumb move by not releasing the FLASH cs5 beta back in december. Gamesalad is now more in the know and more stable, definitely competition for Flash CS5. I was synced to learn Action-script and Flash in anticipation for CS5 but now i'm in to GS. Maybe a GS version 1 will be released by the time CS5 comes out. :)
  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    I think it means GameSalad will have to lower the price of Pro... why pay $2000 for URL and Branding free options when an upgrade to Flash is like $200?

    Although... Flash is hard.

    The surge of Flash apps concerns me. I'm having trouble getting noticed on the App Store right now. What's going to happen when the market is flooded with even more games?

    Oh... and I doubt that I'd be using GameSalad right now if Adobe had actually done their beta.
  • JamesZeppelinJamesZeppelin Member Posts: 1,927
    I'm no pro but ive used flash since '99 for various projects for different jobs and I dont care how good anyone is you aren't gonna make anything descent in flash in under a month to be generous.

    If someone doesn't already know flash the learning curve is months just to make a pong game from scratch.

    Adobe isnt counting on us or trying to compete with GS at all.
  • synthesissynthesis Member Posts: 1,693
    GameSalad's advantage is the built-in Physics engine. However, that is still very immature compared to other software out there. But if GS can improve the engine optimization quickly...I think it has a shot at sticking around...otherwise...I'm concerned as to whether or not GS will even exist a year from now. And with them having full control over publishing capability, it leaves us at risk...

    What happens if GS shuts down because they ran out of funding?
    What happens if Gendai decides that the software is not profitable and they stop development?

    With them being as "secretive" as they are...one can only speculate. At least with Flash or some of the other dev options...you can count on them being around for awhile.

    For now...GS makes sense if you want a physics based game...but for anything else...there are better options. I like GS a lot...but their lack of exposure to the user base is troubling to me. It seems very abnormal.
  • JamesZeppelinJamesZeppelin Member Posts: 1,927
    not again
  • synthesissynthesis Member Posts: 1,693
    oh hush...
    I'm going to keep saying it until its fixed or until Gendai starts communicating some helpful information to us to help us understand how to work around (or with) their core game engine logic.

    I'm tired of stripping my gameplay down hap-hazzardly or eliminate game elements to get it to fit on 40 MB of RAM when the game engine is using over 75% of the MB allowances on it. If I (we) could understand better how the damn thing works...or how it executes functions or sequences...or some more detail about heavy vs. light routines...rather than constantly "guessing" about it...then maybe I (we) would be able to optimize better or perhaps salvage key aspect or our games.

    That's all. I am trying to be proactive (and perhaps insistent) here...not whiny.

    My rant yesterday was to just see if they were even paying attention...which now I know they are....and my hunch is...with this thread's title...they are reading this one too.

    I would prefer VERY MUCH to build games on GS over Flash (or anything else for that matter) because its easier, faster and more fun. And I hope that GS turns into everything it could (and should) be. But if I can't build a decent game on it...then what's the point? Maybe my expectations are too high...I would hope not. Hopefully an update is in the near future and it will release some RAM back to us. I hope and pray its soon! I would really like to beat the Flash wave that's coming.
  • quantumsheepquantumsheep Member Posts: 8,188

    I think that the physics engine is *one* advantage of GS. I personally use it because I don't have to learn a language to make something.

    It's very visual, which, despite my complete lack of art skills, is how I think.

    Believe me, I actually agree with some of the things you say. For a long time *I* was worried about the long term future for GS and what would happen if they went under. *I'm* frustrated too by some of the limitations of the software.

    But if you insist on 'saying it until it's fixed' then people are going to get bored of hearing it, I guarantee it. You've made your point. They've listened to the point where they had to ban you for 24 hours, so you have their attention.

    For over a week I couldn't think of anything positive about GS - so I stopped coming to the forums. I've now got my mojo back, and while things are still far from fine, I'm getting on with it.

    Tshirtbooth, Mulcahy, Firemaplegames and others use the same software you do. The same software we all do. Sure they'd love to have new features by the bucketload, and a ton of fixes. We all would.

    But they're getting ON with it.

    Why not try it?


    Edit: And if you keep editing your posts with more reasonable text you're going to make me look mean - stop it! ;)

    Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
    Web: http://www.quantum-sheep.com

  • synthesissynthesis Member Posts: 1,693
    @QS and James.

    I have only been ranting for a couple of days...and I'm done for now. 95-98% of my posts over the past couple of months are helpful and proactive. Many people complement me on my helpful tips and assistance (even you guys I recall). I help newbies...I help pros. I give kudos...I give criticism. I try to be constructive all the time (except maybe yesterday on a post or 2...due to frustration...I've learned my lesson Cobra :-).

    I'm not trying to bore you...I am trying to communicate. Perhaps I have made my point...so I will leave alone per your suggestion for a while and see if things improve.

    I love GS. I think its great...but it could be much better. I can make a better game if I had just a tiny bit of help from Gendai...which to this point has really done NILL on the BETA support since I have started using GS 2+ months ago. If they would simple post a sticky thread of "Known Issues"...that would go a huge way towards helping us. I could care less what buzzes and whistles they plan to offer...I just want to know what issues still surround the EXISTING game engine and perhaps suggestions on how we should optimize around them (for the time being)...rather than us just guessing in the dark and ripping the guts from my game to make it fit. Its bleeding enough as it is. pretty soon...it will just be pong instead of Bumper Derby X-Treme...which sounds a little better on the appStore. Right now its Bumper Derby (Almost) X-Treme.

    So I will let it be for now.
    But if you don't treat a wound...it will fester.

    [ EDIT ]
    I always re-read, re-think and re-edit until the 1 hour mark shuts me down (or the moderator in some cases ;-P

    [ EDIT 2]
    @219 (below)
    Thanks...I try to help when I can. But I need help too...from Gendai basically...unless you know how the game engine thinks :) If so...I'm all ears.

    [ EDIT 3]
    @Photics (below)
    Well Said!!! Excellent Summary!
  • design219design219 Member Posts: 2,273
    "I help newbies...I help pros. I give kudos...I give criticism."

    I've certainly noticed how helpful you have been, and I think most others have too. It is much appreciated.
  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    Flash vs GameSalad...

    Flash Advantages
    + Vector graphics
    + Video Support (not sure how that's going to work on the iPhone though)
    + No splash screen
    + probably more stable
    + probably faster loading times
    + Larger community with more resources
    + Can use a Mac or PC to create Flash files
    + Not in beta (heh, not counting CS5)
    + Flash is a common browser plug-in, that works rather well
    + The games I make are mine, they don't have to go through Adobe.com to be published and web games aren't hosted on the Adobe website.
    + The software is not subscription based

    GameSalad Advantages
    + Easier to use for...
    + Physics
    + Particle effects
    + Asset Management
    + Cheaper to produce iPhone games (It's only $99 a year)
    + No programming necessary
    + Small, but awesome community here

    If you're a hobbyist, I think GameSalad is more fun. The problem is for professionals. $2000 per year just doesn't work for me. If GameSalad could export to Android... wow... then that would be exciting. If GameSalad wasn't so locked down, so that I could put advertisements in my games, that would be interesting too... or even just adding AdMob support might improve things too.

    ...but if an update for GameSalad doesn't appear in the next two days, that's going to be a minus on the GameSalad side.
  • quantumsheepquantumsheep Member Posts: 8,188

    And if you keep picking at a wound, the stitches come undone ;)

    Seriously though, it's like there's two of you running around in here. I always like to see the helpful, positive 'Jeckyll Synthesis'. He's a nice chap. I like him. He can stay.

    Then there's the overly negative, condescending, whiny 'Synthesis Hyde'. Honestly, I don't like him at all.

    I'm really hoping you don't go completely darkside - then we WILL be in trouble ;)

    And I mean this sincerely - I honestly understand your frustrations. But hey, if you can't get your bumper car game working on a 3G, is it really worth the apparent harm it's doing you? I gave up on the 3G on one of my upcoming games and I'm focussing on 3GS only. For a top down shooter - not exactly rocket science!

    Even that's on hold (heh) because I'm still not comfortable with certain things that GS is making difficult for me. I'm trying (after a needed break) to work around it, but I'm not sure I'll be successful.

    Do yourself a favour. Be kind to yourself.

    Ditch the 3G version. Get a 3GS version out, for your own peace of mind, then release the 3G version when you've spent some time optimising it after initial release.

    I mean, what happens if you don't sell as much as you were expecting to?

    In general, I find that people's expectations are huge, and I really fear for some people's sanity should reality not meet their expectations.

    Just today, a colleague of mine, who's an awesome artist, was bemoaning the fact that he'd spent a year and a half (18 months!!!) on a kids book for iPhone, and sold, after a week on sale, about 12 copies.

    It's not really about the money for him. He wanted to be taken seriously as a kids book author, and saw the iPhone as the perfect way into that.

    12 copies.

    Think about it. Make it 3GS only. Get it out. Get some valuable experience doing it.

    Take it easy,

    QS :)

    Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
    Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
    Web: http://www.quantum-sheep.com

  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    Also, to clarify... is next month the launch of Flash CS5... or is it the "First Look" of Flash CS5?


    That seems silly to me... as I already had something of a look at what it can do...

  • synthesissynthesis Member Posts: 1,693
    I'm calm...don't worry...and I'm not schizophrenic :)
    BDX...in our calculations and estimates could very well be a $50-100K app...maybe more...maybe much less. Based on our research...we think it has a good shot at that or at least generating that over time with sequels/expansion packs (as a franchise). I'm not being smitten/or condescending here...we really think the graphics package has a good shot at carrying it potentially to those numbers...if we can only get it out of the box.

    We have been optimizing for over a month...and are very, very close to finishing. We WILL get it out...but to what quality. We have striped several elements out and continue to whittle away at the game trying to get it to fit on the 3G. We are not going to release anything to 3GS only. That is like deciding you are only going to sell your app in Nebraska...and forget the rest of the world.

    I have all the experience I need to build BDX...15+ years of it and a team of 4 expert programmers in about 10 languages. We want our pilot game to be a huge success to pave the way for bigger and better games as GS matures. I'm not trying to be negative...or God-forbid condescending. I am only trying to urge Gendai to release development notes so we can understand what we can and can't do from a physics side. I got around the timer thing with my game.time workaround. I am using maybe 6 constrained behaviors in the whole game...mostly for time, score and game player's X and Y location. I don't spawn except for point scoring popups (which we may have to axe).

    It seems that the game engine constantly clocks up during game play...I want to know WHY? What is it processing? What is causing it...so I can design/program around it. Why does a 300KB graphic cause 4 MB of rendering RAM damage? What causes the most physics weight in an actor? These are just some of the things I would like some insight on...so I can make a top 100 caliber game with gameSalad and within GS's true limitations. It is possible to do some really killer stuff if one knows what they are truly working with.

    That is the source of my rant. I'm not trying to offend anyone or piss anyone off...or make them feel small...or whatever...

    I would simply like to know GS's inner workings and the "rules" of logic for working within it. The wiki is great for understanding what button to press when...but I need to know some deeper stuff...so that I can take the fullest advantage of what GS has to offer us. I am trying to PUSH THE LIMITS and publish one of the BEST DAMN GAMES EVER!!! Why? Because I want our first action/physics game to be a smashing success...or at least have the best chance for success.

    I am driven and motivated and tireless. I program naval aircraft navigation software simulations in Flash...which is pretty dry. But design is my career and my passion and app dev is the greatest thing to arrive to high concept design in decades...and we want to participate and GS is an amazing way to do that.

    I'm cranky right now only because we are so close and we feel like we have one hand tied behind our back when we shouldn't have...if Gendai would just be a little more visible. If that seems offputting to you or others...I'm sorry about that...but I am simply trying to make a great game within the TRUE limitations of GS...and not the PERCEIVED limitations. And without any XCode to look at...I have very little means to understand what is wrong with my game and how to make it better and maintain the design intent we have planned for it.

    We would like it to be a great success...so people can say...WOW!!! That game was awesome and was DEFINITELY worth $1.99. We will get it published within the next couple of weeks...the question is how close to our original game concept we can get. We are riding a razor thin margin right now on RAM allowances within the 3G...we only need to squeeze out a couple more Megs of RAM out. But I've optimized the crap out of it for 3 weeks and am to the point where we simple must start chopping limbs off to get it the last mile...unless Gendai comes to our rescue...soon with either some helpful information or some better game engine optimization! I will take either!!!

    Otherwise...it will still be a good game...just not the original game we envisioned we could truly accomplish with GS...even in Beta form.

    With all due respect to your colleague, I can't make a living on $8/year. I'm invested heavily already in GameSalad...I will see it to the end of this project for certain...hopefully we will sell more than 12 copies...otherwise we may scrap the whole app development thing entirely.

    If you can help me understand some of these conceptual things rather than pass me off as a whiny lunatic...I would love to hear what you have to say about that. I am simply searching for answers. And since the processing is all done in a secret black box at Gendai's HQ...its hard to understand what is happening to our logic.

    My apologies to the thread's originator for this diversion.
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