Something that caught my attention. (Corona)
iDeveloper
Member Posts: 441
Found this:
"We also have other products in the works that are designed specifically for non-coders"
Oh, it seems that GameSalad may have competition in the future.
You can find it here:
http://anscamobile.com/faq/index.html
It's the "What if I have never written any code before?" question.
"We also have other products in the works that are designed specifically for non-coders"
Oh, it seems that GameSalad may have competition in the future.
You can find it here:
http://anscamobile.com/faq/index.html
It's the "What if I have never written any code before?" question.
Comments
GS doesn't have Social Networking yet Corona does; and that makes Corona garbage?
GS doesn't have native UI controls, yet Corona does; and that makes Corona garbage?
I guess your just calling it garbage because you have to code.
I don't have the time to dedicate the time to learn unity, but I think I could pickup Corona in a few weeks. I personally find GS much easier to use, but Corona does have OpenFeint, Social Networking and a few other features I would love to add to my games.
But right now, I'm sticking with GS. I've invested so much time with it, I'm going to wait for the update, wrap up my next few games and go from there. The 'drag and drop' interface is too useful for me.
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Thanks. I think Corona should be a fairly easy language to pick up. I think the language is LUA.
I like GS, but I'm waiting for this next update (which I think is v1.0), as I don't want to restart GS every <insert # of minutes here>.
Within 2 weeks we have it about 70% ported over. It runs like butter on the device...smooth as silk with Corona where GS crashed out. The downside is...you do have to learn to code...but if you have any head for logic and code syntax...Lua is quick to pick up.
Tyme thinks everyone should learn XCode. But to be honest...we can build an app in 3 weeks with Corona where our XCode apps take up to 4 or 5 times that long...if not longer.
Corona is fast and lean. IMO...they did it right by getting optimized first before trying to introduce every possible feature. GS has some catching up to do with Corona under the hood. When Corona gets a GUI...GS will be in a head to head battle with an admirable adversary...and I suspect GS will be the casualty.
We are waiting patiently for the next GS update...but if the memory management and optimization falls short of expectations...I think more defectors from GS to Corona will follow...as many folks on their forums are pre-GS users.
I personally think there is a place for both...but in the current scheme things...GS is merely a proof of concept builder and Corona is the actual app builder. Then if you app is successful...port it to XCode. No reason to start with XCode...the dev cycle just takes too long compared to GS and/or Corona.
Start with the Buick (Corona) and work your way up to the Cadillac (XCode). Sure XCode is more capable...but its more complex and you have to build EVERYTHING from scratch. Corona uses 10% the amount of code that XCode uses to do the same thing.
GS is a great tool to figure out an idea with...but its not reliable and extremely buggy and therefore is not our personal go-to platform anymore. We had high hopes for it (and still do)...but if the price goes up and the next update or 2 does not make light years of headway in the GE optimization dept...then the GS logo may not see the light of day in anymore of our apps.
The ball's in Gendai's court...they need to get a product out that works...SOON! These other SDKs hitting the market are very impressive. After nearly a year now (for us) of "accommodating" GS's flaws...our reserves of hope and optimism for the product has been severely depleted from the months of frustration and annoyances.
70%-80% of a game's development cycle is graphics, puzzle or gameplay design and UI design. Only about 20-30% is actual programming. So to code in an SDK like Corona vs. Drag and Drop in GS...the time investment isn't a huge difference. The most noticeable difference is performance at the end of the process. All that work...don't you want your app to perform at peak levels?
But I'd like to ask:
How would you sell what you're saying to people like FMG, Tshirtbooth and Utopian Games, who have all made some very cool games and have had great success with them?
We all use the same tool. How have these people managed?
I'm actually being sincere here.
Cheers,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
GS does physics well. But many of those games I doubt perform admirably on a 2G device. FMG's latest game is great. But that game's dev timeline is 90% art. To build that in Corona would be easy...and wouldn't require him to spend countless ours tracking 100's of unique memory attributes.
TSB's games are great too...but the asset counts are small and nearly all of his games are puzzle games...with very little demand on memory.
Bumps was fantastic too...but I double UG would have needed to jump through so many hoops and work arounds to get it to perform well with Corona. That game just isn't that complex...but GS's overhead MAKES it complex to achieve fluidity in its performance levels.
My point above was...that GS does "certain" games well. But we are looking for a platform to do ANY game well...and fast.
IMHO...GS has a lot to learn from Corona. Their staff is on the boards EVERY DAY...communicating and sincerely trying to make the SDK better. Gendai is non-existent. And Ansca seems to be VERY active on expanding their API base VERY rapidly. In app purchasing is due out anytime now...and they just finished the physics engine. They are churning out about 5 or 6 new features for every 1 in GS.
The dev cycles (time required) for Corona Vs GS are about even...the primary difference is GS doesn't require code...Corona does. This is where GS is set apart...FOR NOW.
Once Corona goes GUI...GS will be in deep you-know what...unless they pull a rabbit out of there other you know what. Corona's API library is about 3 times broader than GS.
There are pros and cons to both...but PERFORMANCE is our 1st concern...and GS just isn't up to par with all the other products coming out to market. This next update will be interesting. If their rebuild does improve its performance...then my appeal for GS will be revived. But if the games keep crashing out...where Corona can execute them flawlessly with RAM to spare...then again...I have to ask...why GameSalad?
If you want to write code, use cocos2d (free) and XCode. If you want a fast solid engine for 3D (and 2D) that doesn't require learning real code (just javascript for example), use Unity. If you want easy simple 2D with no code, use Game Salad.
There are obviously things that Corona does that I would love to have in GS. And I'd certainly be interested in a GUI version of it, if that ever comes to pass!
You originally wrote:
"GS is merely a proof of concept builder and Corona is the actual app builder."
My response, and I guess the question that followed, was aimed at this really. I think that's a disingenuous statement.
The people I've mentioned have made full games. Good ones too. Their concept was proved and an app built and money made.
You clarified with your response that GS does physics games well:
"TSB's games are great too...but the asset counts are small and nearly all of his games are puzzle games...with very little demand on memory.
My point above was...that GS does "certain" games well. But we are looking for a platform to do ANY game well...and fast."
I take your point about wanting to do ANY game well - I love shooters the most, and it's really hard to get one at a reasonable frame-rate on older hardware. I'll concede that point!
But if you play to GS's strengths, you *can* make a good game. My next game is a physics puzzler. It's got about 100 levels in it and its memory is steady at about 20MB - even on a 1st gen ipod touch.
So I take your points, but saying that GS is only good for 'concept' work just seems a little off.
Again, thanks for the response!
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Update: If this update isn't nearly as awesome as promised, my point of no return will be November. If this update gives the pro membership more features, then I'm done. Releasing iAd for pro members only was a nail on Gendai's coffin.
Communication: Gendai IS non-existent. Even though staff post things once in a while, their posts aren't even about the updates / software. If Gendai is going to be this way, then what's the point of posting a "big picture" update. It's now almost mid October; and the "big picture" was posted in AUGUST. Wait, three months?
Gendai has a LOT of catching up to do. Let's face it: No Social Networking (yet), no In-App purchasing, no framework access. You may say no there is no framework access because Gendai wants to be cross-platform. All I have to say: Look at Corona and LiveCode from RunRev! They're cross-platform and offer framework access.
No Snap 2 Grid: WHAT?? You want us to painfully align our objects? One mouse mistake and we have to align the object all over again. I haven't even started creating because of this. EVERY drag n' drop game creation software SHOULD have a grid.
Yellow Posts: OK..... WHY is the 0.8.9 update thread STILL stickied? The "Welcome" and "FAQ" threads should be combined. The "The Great Eye of Apple" thread SHOULDN'T even be stickied. It's isn't IMPORTANT, is it?
Thanks.
I'm sorry to hear that snapping to a grid is preventing you from starting anything, but I don't think it's coming soon.
I also like that I own the entire build chain.
It's not cross platform tho.
Takes longer. Manual memory management kinda sucks. Not terrible tho.
Access to any C/C++ library.
Robust toolset
Corona and GS are neck and neck. Corona has speed, GS has ease of use. Corona has a DEBUGGER! GS has drag and drop. Corona has multiple platform. GS has particles & GS is codeless.
Unity is in a class by itself.
UDK is the Titan hiding in the shadows.
And Rocket Pack is also looming on the horizon...
if you are visual; then GS is great.
if you are verbal; then Corona is great.
@synthesis is so talented; he is great in both!
tried Corona... felt I didn't have the control--I needed and wanted.
(no iPad simulator) and kb and build is xCode scripting.
(IMO is Game Salad is an actual SDK...
Corona is a Preview iPhone Simulator with a collection of sample lua scripts and sample programs and great how-tos on lua scripting...if you cared to, think you could just write the luas and put them in xCode without using Corona.)
re: snap to grid
in all new projects, use an actor to display text for mouse.X and one for mouse.Y...then while you develop you will be able to quickly preview the x and y axes of your other actors...alignment is easy then...especially when you have changes in coordinates during runtime.
(actually added templates, including these and other actors (ex: logoScene, crosshairs, etc.), to GS/Resources/Templates so I can open the type of new project--loaded with stuff I want--from the splash screen.)
MH
QS:
Don't get me wrong...I REALLY REALLY REALLY would prefer to use GS. Its easy and fast to use. But I can't continue to spend weeks on projects with no guarantee they will work when I'm done. Your Kraken I understand only works on 3G+ and same with PolyGame's 8Bit. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why those games can't run on a 2G. I've played games 10 times as complex (functionally-wise...such as 3D games or high-res games) and they run incredibly smooth on a 2G. I attribute the flaws I run into to the GS game engine and its optimization/memory problems.
When I built BeDazzled last month...as a side project thinking it was a no-brainer for GS...I was incredibly awestruck when it crashed out. (game link here: http://gamesalad.com/game/play/82038 ). In rage and frustration...I told my business partner that I'm done with GS. Its time to start up Corona. I was frustrated and tired of spending hours to run into a wall at the end. In the last 2 weeks of using Corona...we've rebuilt the app and it is so far working extremely well. We are using half the RAM as GS did...and the controls are much more responsive and the occasional misfiring of simple buttons and rules in GS are not an issue with Corona.
I think GS use of XML is buggy. It seems that the XML gets easily corrupted with leftover code or parts. The re-usability of GS apps is not there either. With a coded project...you can build lots of unique pieces and reuse them over and over...but with GS...every project is a new project from scratch.
Again...I love GS and wish it were all that it should be. I am only suggesting that as these new SDKs begin arriving to the market...there will be a lot more choices. GS had the privilege of being early...but if they want to be a true dev SDK and not a hobbyist's play toy...then they really need to get the lead out and catch up.
Obj-oriented programming is a fairly tough concept to pick-up if you are a newbie like us. We've only coded procedurally prior. If you have web-programming experience (Flash, PHP, etc.) and a head for logic...then Lua is a fast learn. XCode is NOT. We have built apps with XCode and its not an easy thing. The Apple SDK is great...but the syntax is complex. Lua is straight-forward and a good starting point for learning OOP structures.
Orbz and Tyme are seasoned veterans and their advice to skip Corona and go straight to XCode (or Unity) I feel is a bit near-sighted. Unity is expensive. I think Corona is a nice intro-level mid-scaled platform that can do some really slick stuff and its very efficient at execution.
Some things that GS could do to catch up and become a real contender:
1) OPTIMIZE and only generate logic/overhead if needed and remove it when not needed.
2) Allow custom scripting integration for advanced users.
3) Accept the standard pricing model of other SDKs...all features @ 1 competitive price.
4) Get the game builder more dev friendly (its too simple as is...needs an "advanced" UI with lots of readouts and more actor control).
5) GET MORE INVOLVED with its users and help them understand what the hell is going on with their apps under the hood...so we can KNOW how to build them to work efficiently.
6) Better and more flexible data management.
Gendai chose to bring a GUI in with their Game Engine at the start. Great! But if they can't keep pace with the other SDKs...then they will have major trouble ahead. They just have to step up their game...or they will vaporize and go to "Failed Startup Heaven". And that would not be good for any of us.
I hope your right. As for I have a leg up...that is inaccurate. I am not a programmer. I was surprised that I could pick up Lua so easily. I have worked in Flash...but I haven't written any complex logic. My coding skills are limited to intermediate level html and novice level Actionscript. However I have spent the last several years trying to "surround" myself (and partner with) coders of measurable skills. My opinions that I express (at times) are a collective opinion of our group.
If Gendai has sextupled their dev staff...then that is a good sign that their dev rate will increase. It has to. At their current rate...a workable SDK would be 2+ years out.
Again...I hope GS can step up their game. It is a desirable platform. But as is...it is way too limiting. It's like trying to drive a Model T when there are V8s coming to the market...that are slicker, faster and more featured.
And yes...I will hold on...for a bit longer. I've been holding on for a year now (an eternity in the app dev world). My "warning" is that if they don't step up...GS will get beat to the punch...and possibly get KO'd.
It does let you do A LOT. But as synth points out. Corona us faster to market. Plus it's cross platform and xcode is not. However, like GS you dont own the build phase of corona. That means you are forever tied to the success of corona or GS. If they go belly up you will not be able to compile your games.
Xcode gives you the entire build process.
But, you of course need to weigh that against the pros and cons of a quick dev cycle that is Corona. My concerns with corona are that it's an young API and as such is poorly documented and prone to bugs. Lua is a fun language though.
I am finishing my game in GS, then like Synth I'm thinking of alternatives due to the poor performance of GS. We'll see what kind of performance improvements this next update brings. If it's good I'll continue to use it.
I'm not saying it'll work on a 1st gen ipod touch without any problems - but I reckon it could with a significant amount of re-working. Perhaps the new update will alleviate some of the burden.
You could certainly argue that people shouldn't *have* to spend ages optimising their games, and I'd agree with you there. But ALL code can be better optimised, regardless of language.
I do understand your frustration though. It's like the wonderful PAUSE saga. Yes, there were workarounds so you could integrate a pause system. But with timers it just sucked all the fun out of making games and for two or three months I just stopped using GameSalad.
I imagine that's how you feel. Yes there are workarounds and optimisation techniques, but why should you *need* to do that? Right? I agree with most of these. Number 4 I have an issue with because I really like things as they are - but having the *option* to have a more detailed UI would be great for those that need it. I'm really glad you took to LUA so easily. It's something I've been meaning to look into myself. However, I disagree with your statement simply because I cannot code.
From my point of view, it's *other* SDKs that need to keep pace with GameSalad. Because until someone comes along with a truly drag and drop, no code solution, nothing even comes close to what GS has enabled me to do.
That's just my personal opinion of course!
I guess what riles me somewhat is the constant complaining about GS. It's not perfect by any means, and I've done my own fair share of complaining (Pause again - though to be fair, it was a feature we *used* to have that got taken out).
Good games *can* be made with GS and *can* be successful. Bumps is a prime example, as I've already mentioned. I only wish people would look at themselves and share the blame, rather than dump on the tool all the time.
Like I said, Kraken was limited by GameSalad AND by my own ability. Both are getting better. So I'm hoping things will improve!
Cheers for an interesting debate btw!
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
code reuse though. That would be nice.
One thing GS does well is hide the complexity.
This can be a blessing or a curse.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
I love the concept of an invisible game loop and behavioral changes. But it's buggy as hell
Jump to Actor (would move in an arc to the position of another actor)
Pull Actor towards me
Fly
Explode
Dissolve
Follow Actor
Float
Run From Actor
Attack
Heal
Protect
Find Path to Actor
Run
Look at actor
Hide from actor
Etc
I think that if GS were to create behavioral systems like this then they would have something profoundly different.