@iWin - bumping this thread constantly I don't think is helpful. I know you're angry and frustrated, and I think that's perfectly natural. We all would be if it happened to us. But it's the weekend. The guys at GS, and yes, Apple too, will have to take some time to look at this. Give them a couple of days, do what you can, and let us know when you've *heard* from them.
Also: Put your own game out on the app store. Make sure you have "copyright iWin, 2009/2010" on it. Send a polite email to itechtouch (take the moral high ground!) telling him you have contacted Apple and Gendai games with regard to this matter, and that you expect him to immediately remove his application from the App store.
A few things I'd like to see happen off the back of this on the Gendai side:
1. A change in the terms of service that clearly states any and all output made by someone requires their permission before it can be used elsewhere by other users. This would not include Gendai itself if it wanted to use your stuff for promotional purposes. 2. Set sharing when publishing to 'off' by default. Users will have to change this setting manually once their game is published to the web to 'shared' 3. Sharing with friends: A feature that allows you to specify people individually as being able to see your game would be useful. I think JGary mentioned this as a request, and it would be good to have in light of all this. 4. An investigation into this web exploit that allows people to steal your games, even if they're not set to 'share'.
The lovely people at GS will see this in the morning at the latest. I'm sure they won't just ignore it. I look forward to hearing their response.
Sorry, i apologize, they have been removed, i thought by people having there code up it would be allowed to do whatever you want with it. i made very little money on it, if you dont believe me i will post a screen shot (if you ask). I will donate the money to charity or if you are the developer i will send you the money via paypal, next month when the finical reports come.
What do you mean codemonkey? only the 2 games penny pinch and space tack, none of those are even yours. I guess apple takes awhile to remove them from the app store but i can assure you i removed them.
Again, just want to make it clear i am sorry, i now understand what i did is wrong.
adent42Key Master, Head Chef, Executive Chef, Member, PROPosts: 3,069
To address some points made in this thread.
1) Yes according to our terms, a user is within their rights to take a game marked as shared and create derivative works from it without any permission. This was in the hopes that users could share certain games in an "open source" spirit and benefit the whole community. With this language and by making the sharing of games default, we were hoping to encourage the kind of great community that has built up here. We will look into turning off default sharing.
2) We cannot unduly restrict uploaded games, as that also limits the ability to share said games on the web. We will be speaking with our lawyers on Monday about clearing up the language in this section of our terms of service so that you will have stronger legal grounds to defend your work.
3) There is no way to prevent this "web exploit" with out rendering the games unplayable anywhere but gamesalad.com (and even then, other exploits will work... think about how youtube works and the availability of youtube video downloaders). According to our terms, content that is not "shared" is not licensed to users for more than playing. We will make sure the terms are clear in that regard.
4) Sharing with friends is a feature we will be working on as well, look for it soon.
5) A few months ago we implemented the ability to "unshare" your games through the web interface, so there is no need to upload your game again to change share settings.
6) Because iTechTouch has responded, his account will not be suspended.
---
I (back to me speaking as myself here) hope that this doesn't deter anyone from sharing their games on our website. Game on this site are meant to be used as inspiration for your own games. Shared code and assets are meant for you to integrate into your own projects to make them better.
For now just be careful about how you share your games (source sharing vs just uploading for others to play).
If you want help with a specific mechanic, I'd upload a simplified project that only shows the mechanic you're trying to achieve. This helps in 2 ways. It prevents people from stealing the "game" itself, and it also makes your problem easier to debug. In addition, by isolating the mechanic, you may find the issue becomes clear and fixable all on your own.
If you want comment on a game you created, then upload the game without "sharing" it. While someone with a little web knowledge could still grab it, you would have at least stated your intention that this game is NOT for the taking and you have a much stronger position for a takedown notice. I'd also consider watermarking / explicitly stating copyright in your games as well.
Again, I hope that this doesn't deter anyone from sharing their games on our website. GameSalad was created as a forum for people to learn about creating great games, without worrying about the technical aspects (or at least worrying about them a lot less). By sharing knowledge, we all benefit by making better games.
@iTechTouch, I'm afraid you may have lost a lot of the good will of the community. I'm sure they will be watching you very closely. I encourage you to rebuild trust by engage the community and participate as a creative and contributing member.
I too hope that folks continue to share but if they do, they strip out any images, sound, or specifics that they wish to retain the rights to (i.e. setup a project explicitly for sharing such as CodeMonkey, QuantumSheep, tshirtbooth, and others are doing).
I hope to contribute some examples too as I learn more about the tool and come up with clean/smooth implementations.
Let's not bicker and fight amongst ourselves...let's help each other make money off of THEM...the iphone/ipod touch users...and not at the expense of each other or the gracious hosts at GS who are making this possible for us all.
I know we're all in the spirit of moving on, but there is one issue that concerns me that has not really been brought up yet. I am selling apps on the appstore, but the real reason I picked up GS was to be able to embed on games on my website. I am in the process of creating a multimedia curriculum package that I plan to sell to schools. The main way I am marketing this is by saying that the curriculum package ties in with interactive science games found on my website. So for me, taking images out or water marking everything, etc. would hurt my business. Is there a way that GS can allow us to post our games with greater protection? That would be greatly appreciated, here! Oh, and support for firefox or ie on windows for the gs web pluggin (don't care about creator as I hate using windows!) would also be greatly appreciated! I am also hoping to start a game making club for students with the main focus on publishing to the web - I would hate for their games to get stolen!
It's too bad that people that steal games choose to ruin the experience for others, given that scitunes would like to be able to start a business utilizing the web part of gamesalad.
It's really too bad that someone would do that... what were they thinking??!
Great! - I took a little time of for the holidays - just to come back to find my game was stolen! My intentions were to submit my game this week! So going forward - should we add - "Please don't steal me - I attend to sell it myself" to the comments when we upload a game?
Misunderstanding or not - it was a crappy thing to do - and it does ruin the spirit of community and sharing, and not outright stealing - that this site is trying to cultivate - at least for me.
So should I even bother submitting game? Will apple re-approve a game that was already in the store?
I would just re-submit it not saying anything since they may not even bat an eyelash. Then, if they come back and say anything, refer them to this thread.
No need to bring attention to something. However, if he stole the same exact name, maybe alter the name a little just to be certain!? Not sure on that one.
Hi all I just finished reading this whole thread. I can sympathize with iWin. I apologize if what I am about to say offends anyone. In my day job I deal with IP issues all the time.
As a designer there is something that should be pointed out: iWin your use of copyrighted images was illegal as well.
I'm not saying this to cause a flame war. But when you grabbed copyrighted images and even used them in your demo, then published them to the web within your work. You did so without permission from the copyright holder. Because it was easier to grab those images from the net it did not make it legal. The owners of the images could easily have been on an "image forum" complaining of theft, in the same fashion as you were complaining.
It may not have felt the same but the infringement was actually the same as iTechTouch's infringement. Basically you did the same thing that you were angry about. What iTechTouch did was actually within the legal boundaries of the license and use terms on gamesalad.com. Morally improper but within his rights. Visuals have just as much rights and legal protection against infringement as code and other things.
The reason I am pointing this out, is throughout this thread people were angry, upset etc. And rallying. That's a really cool thing. But people giving the advice to contact the copyright owners of the images were actually giving bad legal advice. As a matter of fact the infringement started with the use of the copyrighted material in the game iWin created.
I know this post may not make me any friends, but hopefully it helps people really think about the matter. I'm not posting this to "defend" iTechTouch or anything. It's just that many seemed to grab their pitchforks and were calling for blood, and missing the point. The anger did not let them see the full picture.
Even if you are using graphics to "practice" or create demos, you need to have a license to do so. Using graphics and then publishing(posting)/distributing without license or agreement on copyrighted material is illegal.
And contrary to popular belief it doesn't matter if the intent was to create revenue or not.
Again, my intent with this is to inform not to offend.
@dingosmoov: Actually, you are absolutely correct.
I thought he uploaded it here to have people help him with an issue, which many do, and then was going to remove it or replace it with his final product, again, what many folks here do. Even then, he really should have removed the test images (i.e. others' work) before doing so in the event something like this occurs.
I know I "borrow" some resources (images/soundFX/music) just to get the project rolling more quickly but then obviously replace the "borrowed" resources with my own before release. It gets the feel of the game moving much more quickly to have real resources in place rather than just default square actors. There is no use working on a bulk of those items until you think you have something worth expending energy on (i.e. decent and/or unique game mechanics, story, etc.). Not to mention, it gets the excitement level rolling sooner prompting enthusiastic work ethic.
So rule to note: Remove others' borrowed work before showing to others for help, concept approval, or feedback testing.
yeah im not complaining...i understood that after publishing..i took it off after i figured the images were copyright..so i actually want to thank itechtouch for taking them off..
Comments
@tollhousestudio - your second line made me actually laugh - hurrah for region specific swearing
@everyone else
Let's take a deep breath shall we?
@iWin - bumping this thread constantly I don't think is helpful. I know you're angry and frustrated, and I think that's perfectly natural. We all would be if it happened to us. But it's the weekend. The guys at GS, and yes, Apple too, will have to take some time to look at this. Give them a couple of days, do what you can, and let us know when you've *heard* from them.
Also: Put your own game out on the app store. Make sure you have "copyright iWin, 2009/2010" on it. Send a polite email to itechtouch (take the moral high ground!) telling him you have contacted Apple and Gendai games with regard to this matter, and that you expect him to immediately remove his application from the App store.
A few things I'd like to see happen off the back of this on the Gendai side:
1. A change in the terms of service that clearly states any and all output made by someone requires their permission before it can be used elsewhere by other users. This would not include Gendai itself if it wanted to use your stuff for promotional purposes.
2. Set sharing when publishing to 'off' by default. Users will have to change this setting manually once their game is published to the web to 'shared'
3. Sharing with friends: A feature that allows you to specify people individually as being able to see your game would be useful. I think JGary mentioned this as a request, and it would be good to have in light of all this.
4. An investigation into this web exploit that allows people to steal your games, even if they're not set to 'share'.
The lovely people at GS will see this in the morning at the latest. I'm sure they won't just ignore it. I look forward to hearing their response.
Good luck,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
i made very little money on it, if you dont believe me i will post a screen shot (if you ask).
I will donate the money to charity or if you are the developer i will send you the money via paypal, next month when the finical reports come.
Again, i now know this is wrong. Sorry!
Thank you for your response to this matter iTechTouch.
I guess apple takes awhile to remove them from the app store but i can assure you i removed them.
1) Yes according to our terms, a user is within their rights to take a game marked as shared and create derivative works from it without any permission. This was in the hopes that users could share certain games in an "open source" spirit and benefit the whole community. With this language and by making the sharing of games default, we were hoping to encourage the kind of great community that has built up here. We will look into turning off default sharing.
2) We cannot unduly restrict uploaded games, as that also limits the ability to share said games on the web. We will be speaking with our lawyers on Monday about clearing up the language in this section of our terms of service so that you will have stronger legal grounds to defend your work.
3) There is no way to prevent this "web exploit" with out rendering the games unplayable anywhere but gamesalad.com (and even then, other exploits will work... think about how youtube works and the availability of youtube video downloaders). According to our terms, content that is not "shared" is not licensed to users for more than playing. We will make sure the terms are clear in that regard.
4) Sharing with friends is a feature we will be working on as well, look for it soon.
5) A few months ago we implemented the ability to "unshare" your games through the web interface, so there is no need to upload your game again to change share settings.
6) Because iTechTouch has responded, his account will not be suspended.
---
I (back to me speaking as myself here) hope that this doesn't deter anyone from sharing their games on our website. Game on this site are meant to be used as inspiration for your own games. Shared code and assets are meant for you to integrate into your own projects to make them better.
For now just be careful about how you share your games (source sharing vs just uploading for others to play).
If you want help with a specific mechanic, I'd upload a simplified project that only shows the mechanic you're trying to achieve. This helps in 2 ways. It prevents people from stealing the "game" itself, and it also makes your problem easier to debug. In addition, by isolating the mechanic, you may find the issue becomes clear and fixable all on your own.
If you want comment on a game you created, then upload the game without "sharing" it. While someone with a little web knowledge could still grab it, you would have at least stated your intention that this game is NOT for the taking and you have a much stronger position for a takedown notice. I'd also consider watermarking / explicitly stating copyright in your games as well.
Again, I hope that this doesn't deter anyone from sharing their games on our website. GameSalad was created as a forum for people to learn about creating great games, without worrying about the technical aspects (or at least worrying about them a lot less). By sharing knowledge, we all benefit by making better games.
@iTechTouch, I'm afraid you may have lost a lot of the good will of the community. I'm sure they will be watching you very closely. I encourage you to rebuild trust by engage the community and participate as a creative and contributing member.
Keep creating everyone!
I hope to contribute some examples too as I learn more about the tool and come up with clean/smooth implementations.
Let's not bicker and fight amongst ourselves...let's help each other make money off of THEM...the iphone/ipod touch users...and not at the expense of each other or the gracious hosts at GS who are making this possible for us all.
It's really too bad that someone would do that... what were they thinking??!
Misunderstanding or not - it was a crappy thing to do - and it does ruin the spirit of community and sharing, and not outright stealing - that this site is trying to cultivate - at least for me.
So should I even bother submitting game? Will apple re-approve a game that was already in the store?
Thanks guys for looking out for me too!
No need to bring attention to something. However, if he stole the same exact name, maybe alter the name a little just to be certain!? Not sure on that one.
As a designer there is something that should be pointed out: iWin your use of copyrighted images was illegal as well.
I'm not saying this to cause a flame war. But when you grabbed copyrighted images and even used them in your demo, then published them to the web within your work. You did so without permission from the copyright holder. Because it was easier to grab those images from the net it did not make it legal. The owners of the images could easily have been on an "image forum" complaining of theft, in the same fashion as you were complaining.
It may not have felt the same but the infringement was actually the same as iTechTouch's infringement. Basically you did the same thing that you were angry about. What iTechTouch did was actually within the legal boundaries of the license and use terms on gamesalad.com. Morally improper but within his rights. Visuals have just as much rights and legal protection against infringement as code and other things.
The reason I am pointing this out, is throughout this thread people were angry, upset etc. And rallying. That's a really cool thing. But people giving the advice to contact the copyright owners of the images were actually giving bad legal advice. As a matter of fact the infringement started with the use of the copyrighted material in the game iWin created.
I know this post may not make me any friends, but hopefully it helps people really think about the matter. I'm not posting this to "defend" iTechTouch or anything. It's just that many seemed to grab their pitchforks and were calling for blood, and missing the point. The anger did not let them see the full picture.
Even if you are using graphics to "practice" or create demos, you need to have a license to do so. Using graphics and then publishing(posting)/distributing without license or agreement on copyrighted material is illegal.
And contrary to popular belief it doesn't matter if the intent was to create revenue or not.
Again, my intent with this is to inform not to offend.
I thought he uploaded it here to have people help him with an issue, which many do, and then was going to remove it or replace it with his final product, again, what many folks here do. Even then, he really should have removed the test images (i.e. others' work) before doing so in the event something like this occurs.
I know I "borrow" some resources (images/soundFX/music) just to get the project rolling more quickly but then obviously replace the "borrowed" resources with my own before release. It gets the feel of the game moving much more quickly to have real resources in place rather than just default square actors. There is no use working on a bulk of those items until you think you have something worth expending energy on (i.e. decent and/or unique game mechanics, story, etc.). Not to mention, it gets the excitement level rolling sooner prompting enthusiastic work ethic.
So rule to note: Remove others' borrowed work before showing to others for help, concept approval, or feedback testing.
you are absolutly right.
ty