terms of rules?

SDMG · June 2009

Hi Everybody,

unfortunatly my english is not the best and i would like to ask you what exactly is ment at point 4 in the terms of rules...

When i contribute Content to an GENDAI GAMES Service i am granting to GENDAI GAMES a non -exclusiv right of all uses i can imagine?

Does this mean that when i create a Game using the GENDAI GAMES-Software and upload this "Game-Content" to a "GENDAI GAMES Service" that compiles my Game for the iphone... I am automatically granting GENDAI GAMES to reproduce, license, distribute (etc)... my Game???

I am sure someone can help me to understand this right...

Thank you and all the best

SDMG

quantumsheep · June 2009

Actually, that's a very well spotted issue.

I'd love some clarification on this too please!

ktfright · June 2009

im thinking it means that they can use your game, or images, as an example to help promote themselses and gamesalad,

or they have rights to use your game, butyou still get royalties, but idk really :{

SDMG · June 2009

Hi ktfright,

i am reading :' you expressly grant to GENDAI GAMES a non-exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, complete and irrevocable right to use...without notice, payment or attribution of any kind to you or any third party...'

Firstly i thought this is maybe only for the upcoming marketplace... but now i think this wouldn't be any better

..and i simply don't see that our games are excluded from the mentioned Content that you are contributing to GENDAI GAMES...

To be fair i clearly remember to have read somewhere in the forum that you will own all copyrights of your game after compiling it for the iphone, and GENDAI GAMES only takes a fee for their Service... but this is not congruent with how i understand their terms of use...

clarification please

SDMG

Shanesta · June 2009

Yes, I would really like clarification about published iPhone games.

SDMG · June 2009

Can someone please refresh my memory ... I am pretty sure that GENDAI GAMES has told Dimitriii in this post that the users of GameSalad are getting all the copyrights for their compiled games :

Hmm... Dimitri is now talking to himself

)

I really don't want to be annoying or rude!
But in my opinion this point about the rights of use can make GameSalad easily to the most expensive software i know... (at least for the people with a very successful game)

So i keep my fingers crossed that GENDAI GAMES comes up with a solution for people who don't want to give away their rights of use... because i really would like to use GameSalad

All the best

SDMG

Shanesta · July 2009

So can someone that works at Gendai Games, respond to this, if we make a game with Game Salad, and pay you to compile it, and we put it on the app store. Do we own it, and all the rights?

CodeMonkey · July 2009

We are working on an official answer that will not cause even more confusion/misunderstanding. Please Stand By.

quantumsheep · July 2009

This is Red 5, standing by <chrrrrk>

butterbean · July 2009

It would be nice to receive clarification on this soon as there are a lot of people investing a lot of time in GS with the idea that we get to keep royalties, and copyright, that GS is a service to allow us to export games that are our intellectual property, and copyright of the individual user.

JGary321 · July 2009

Personally, as long as I can sell my game on the App Store & get the full 70% I'm due, I don't care who owns the game. I create, they "publish", I get money. Good enough for me.

Kamazar · July 2009

@JGary, I'd rather have full control over what I create. I came up with the concept, it should belong to me. The graphics that I slave over, they should belong to me. The hours I've spent in front of the computer getting the controls just right, they should belong to me. Say I wanna adapt it to a different platform in the future, I can't if it belongs to Gendai. If we're gonna pay $30-$100 for the preview up plus the fee to compile our games, we should have rights to them.

jhaas · July 2009

Hello all, Just joined. My 2 cents...

I'm very interested in what Game Salad represents. I make animated cartoons and am interested in leveraging my characters in iphone games based on my films. Having said that I will have ZERO interest in any solution that allows Game Salad to create derived works of my characters or cartoons without payment or permission. It is very important to restate and clarify these policys as this will be a show stopper for anyone who has existing assets beyond the game market.

I'm going to wait on the further clarification of this issue before I even download the trial software.

Cheers,

Jeff

chuckandbenny.com

SDMG · July 2009

@JGary123... The one who owns the copyright is the one who is allowed to publish your app again one week after your publication for half the price

Be careful with your rights...

(Standby)

JGary321 · July 2009

Trust me I understand all about copyright, that's why I specifically said as long as I get paid I don't really care. I doubt Gendai Games would stay in business very long if they just started releasing everyone's games a week after they released it themselves.

But we are in a day & age where ownership means little, I guess that's why I'm not really concerned. As long as I'm getting paid for my work, I'm cool with whatever. Do I prefer to not own my game? Of course not. Will I still make games with GS even if I don't? Of course I will. Just my 4 cents....

-JGary

quantumsheep · July 2009

I have to disagree with you there mate, sorry!

If we live in an age where ownership means little, why is YouTube constantly removing songs I don't own from the videos I make? Why is file sharing seen as illegal when it involves copyright material? Why would you be annoyed if I took a look at one of your games, replicated it, and passed it off as my own?

Whenever this kind of thing comes up, I'm reminded of two quotes from literature:

"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet of them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; leave me my name!" Arthur Miller, The Crucible

"He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future." - George Orwell, 1984

GameSalad is a tool. Think of it like the old film cameras before digital took over. You buy the camera, and you buy the film. You take photos. You *OWN* those photos, not the film or camera manufacturer. You then pay someone to convert the negatives into photos. They are still *Your* photos.

Having said all that, I think it only fair that we wait for clarification from the fine chaps at Gendai Games.

butterbean · July 2009

Well put Quantum !

I was reading the terms myself, and I have to say, Gendai Games needs to clarify this soon, there are a LOT of people who have invested a TON of time with the Gamesalad creator, thinking the copyright of the game was theirs, and all royalties go to us. Clarification would be nice, and the sooner the better.

I say this with confidence, if GS decides the copyrights are theirs for my game creation, I won't be making games with GS, which is a huge disappointment for me, but better to be disappointed than give up my creative rights.

quantumsheep · July 2009

I'm hoping for something like this:

With this line from that article being the most pertinent:

"I also want to be very clear that Facebook does not, nor have we ever, claimed ownership over people’s content. Your content belongs to you."

JGary321 · July 2009

I agree with everyone on everything, but here is my point. Regardless of what the terms say I will still use the software. This is just personal. I don't want to work the same dead end job that I have been for the past 5 years. And to quote a few lines from my post that I think most are over looking::

"Personally, as long as I can sell my game on the App Store & get the full 70% I'm due, I don't care who owns the game. I create, they "publish", I get money. Good enough for me."

"Do I prefer to NOT own my game? Of course not. Will I still make games with GS even if I don't? Of course I will."

And I wouldn't say that 'I don't care', that was probably the wrong wording. I do want to own it & do what I want with it, but as long as I get 70% of the sale like I'm supposed to, I reckon I can take just about any terms.

Maybe some people don't realize, that if you sell 2 quality games per year, you can make over the AVERAGE income of most in the US.

I read a forum post on another website, that was saying it's not profitable for small startups to create iPhone games. And they couldn't sustain business b/c the games were only bringing in 50k-75k. Of course they were out-sourcing graphics (which cost the most. A lot of them reported upwards of 40k for graphics) & had a team to pay. But I'm a one man show, so a couple of quality releases & I'm set for the year.

Many companies have terms that say they technically own what you make. They never follow through on them though. It's in a lot of Terms. For example, I work for ADT Security. We own ALL equipment we install, & we can come remove it if we want to. So that system you paid $100-$2000 (obviously depending on your home) for is OURS. Have we ever removed one?? Nope. We claim ownership, b/c behind the scenes, it makes ADT's value go up, b/c we technically own that sys. So if you paid $1000 for your system. ADT is worth $1000 more dollars (not exact, just example).

This 'ownership clause' is A LOT more common than people realize. MOST people never read all the terms on things. Most companies never act on it though & it usually is just for behind the scenes reasons. I guess I have seen this before (my job being one) so MAYBE that's why I'm not as concerned. Wall of text crits for 7k damage! Good Bye!

In summary: I understand everyone's viewpoint, & I completely agree with EVERYTHING said. However, between working my job & getting paid an average wage vs. making games (which is my passion) & getting paid based off how good/many I make. It's an easy choice, EVEN if I don't technically own it. That's all I'm saying.

PS. I agree with QS, let's keep this closed until we hear further info on the matter.

butterbean · July 2009

"Maybe some people don't realize, that if you sell 2 quality games per year, you can make over the AVERAGE income of most in the US."

I don't want to put a damper on what type of income you can make on a game, but I think it will all vary. To think or hope that 2 games released can earn you the average income of most people in America is very hopeful, but also I'm being very realistic about the possibility of striking it big with game releases.

I think each game can make anywhere from 1K up to 50K, depending on your marketing skills, gameplay, graphics quality, as well as timing and luck.

There are a lot of games and apps to compete with as well, but I think if anything, indy developers have the upper hand because we have low overhead.

I've also been playing video games for over 25 years, so I hope that my discerning taste in games will produce a wonderful new creative game for others to play.

And I'm hoping out of the dozen games that I hope to release, that just one will do well, and that would make me very happy.

As for the copyright issues, to each his own. I understand the desire to be creative, and do something that is fun and doesn't seem like work.

I also feel that on an ethical level, especially if you're recruiting a graphics artist, that their work, and their creativity, as well as yours, should be just that.

That's why websites like istockphoto protect their users, and creators of graphics by limiting usage, and don't allow things like branding or logos with their users graphics.

I think it's only right, but we shall have to see... waiting patiently!

ktfright · July 2009

I agree with JGary, as long as I do not have to actually code, and make a game I would love to sell in the app store, then I'm all for it.

Kamazar · July 2009

It's been over two days. Shouldn't the guys at Gendai Games know their own policy? This is finally starting to worry me...

butterbean · July 2009

I emailed the head at GS asking for clarification on behalf of everyone here, hopefully we'll hear something soon

NMC94 · July 2009

They wont answer for at least 1 day after the email. They never answered me.

CodeMonkey · July 2009

Hey there everyone. It's Independence Day weekend here in the states and people are on a much needed weekend off. The reason we haven't responded with the official policy explanation, is we need the lawyers to okay it so there aren't any loopholes and make sure it is clear. Hopefully tomorrow.

NMC94, who did you email?

ktfright · July 2009

okay :}

quantumsheep · July 2009

Being from the UK, should I be offended that you celebrate on July 4th?

CodeMonkey · July 2009

Only if you are vegetarian.

j/k

Nothing wrong with vegetarians.

quantumsheep · July 2009

Heh. Damn vegies!

On a serious note, and another reason this has to be cleared up asap, is this:

Essentially, someone has taken one of the GameSalad templates, then slapped a copyright notice in the corner.

This is just wrong, surely???

And while I'm here, can we have an extra sorting category on the website for games? Call it 'templates' or something, and put all the games in there that are essentially just the ones that are templates from GameSalad with little or no changes. It clogs up the site, and makes finding proper games that bit harder.

Or just remove them entirely

Anyway! Bed time for the sheep!

adent42 · July 2009

Hello all, I'm the Gendai Games legal expert (and I use that term very loosely). I'd like to apologize for taking so long to get back to you... we're in the midst of trying to get out updates to the website, a new build, keeping the business going forward... you know... the fun stuff.

So I'll take the blame for dragging my feet on the legal questions. I would say that I'm pretty sure the copyright is invalid. It's not like I can write "copyright 2009, Gendai Games" on a copy of the Declaration of Independence and claim it as my own.

Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created
the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright.

Sooo... we still own the copyright on template games, but we choose to freely license them to our community of creators.

My response to this thread is being checked out by our lawyers and we'll have a response by the end of the day Monday.

Thanks all for your patience!

(P.S. quantum sheep, not that it helps you filter them at the moment: but feel free to tag template games as 'template' and I'll try to sneak in a feature that allows you to filter out that tag. In the mean time, you can also 'Favorite' real games to help them move up the rankings... thus ensuring that they are sorted first in the 'Highest Rated' sort.)

JGary321 · July 2009

Hey adent42, what happened to the food theme? You can't waltz in here as Moderator

. You need a cool title. Sooo...

I'm threadjacking this thread. New topic - Pick a title for adent42.

We have Sous Chef, & Head Chef already.... Anyone have any ideas?

terms of rules?

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