An open letter to Gamesalad's management

micksolomicksolo Member Posts: 264
edited December 2011 in Working with GS (Mac)
Dear Gamesalad,

I firstly wanted to say I have loved the freedom that Gamesalad has given me. I've worked in game development for 12 years as a game designer, producer and have run 2 companies. I've released loads of games on many different platforms.

But I could never program the games I wanted...I'm not a coder. I stumbled across Gamesalad over a year ago, and was lucky enough to meet a few members of the GS team at GDC. I launched my first game in September which got into the top 10 on the australian app store. I've been loving being able to see my games come to fruition.

But..and there is a but. The more I use Gamesalad the more frustrated I get. and its not just me. Gamesalad could be the most awesomely fantastic game development tool the world has ever seen. But right now, its not capable of developing a top 10 game.

And having a top 10 game made by gamesalad will see your user base explode! It will allow many more developers to take up being a Gamesalad developer full time. The games will get better, more people will be drawn to it through the success of other developers.

We're not being given the tools and features we need to make a top 10 game. And that is what's bugging me and so many other people on here.

It seems the focus of Gamesalad is introducing new features before we have basic features. And whilst many of those features are really cool - HTML5, Marketplace, Kiip Rewards...these are not things that are going to help us make a top 10 game.

What's going to make us a top 10 games are features that will enable us to make deeper games, without issues plaguing performance. In app purchases are also a must because most revenue is derived from IAP.

Unity has 750,000 paying developers, how many has Gamesalad got? The reason Unity is so popular is because the tools are good enough so that people can make top 10 games, and earn an income. GS is not at that level yet.

So I'm asking you, please, focus on us....focus on your developers....your customers. Ask us what we want...and please do your best to make it happen. We're a pretty understanding lot, if you explain things to us rationally we're most likely to be sympathetic. But the lack of any communication from upper management on the delays in basic features is not good enough.

Here is a recent blog post from the CEO of Ansca Mobile (the creators of Corona), who also posts regularly on their forum.

****************
So what is next?

Simple. We are going to add the features that have been brought up by many of you for quite sometime now, and we are going to strictly focus on the features that have been “missing” and plaguing us for a while now. They are, in no particular order:

Android in-app purchases
Game Center without OpenFeint
iOS Mail with attachments and without leaving the app.
Map view on Android
Push notifications (remote) for iOS
URLSchema for iPhone
Intents for Android
WebPopup redux
More social gaming features
Twitter integration for iOS5
Messages/SMS in app for iOS
Graphics engine improvements
Debugger enhancements
These are some of the first and foremost important features that we will focus on immediately. Some of them will end up on iOS first, and then Android if the feature is available — or vice-versa.
********************

And Corona has many of the performance, physics features and IAP that we desperately need.

In August we were all so rapt that the roadmap had been updated, and many of the features we had been asking for had been prioritised to the top.

September
In-App Purchase
Game Center Achievements
Joints
Chrome Store Publishing
Lion Updates *

October
Tables
Android Publishing *
Facebook and Twitter Integration
Snap-to-grid

Of all those things, we only got Lion Updates and Android Publishing. And now its near the end of December and looking unlikely that we won't get any of those things in 2011.

the explanation given to us for not giving us those features was that GS wanted to focus on performance, but overall it hasn't really seemed to improve all that much. There's been a slew of bugs in updates and we're not seeing any new features of note coming through.

So I'm asking, please listen to us. Please listen to your customers, and give us the features that we need to make top 10 games. When we do, we'll all wiin. The developers and especially Gamesalad. If we can make top 10 games with Gamesalad, your user base will expand massively. and thats a win for everyone.

Cheers

Mick
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Comments

  • calvin9403calvin9403 Member Posts: 3,186
    I agree to you micksolo


    September
    In-App Purchase
    Game Center Achievements
    Joints
    Chrome Store Publishing
    Lion Updates

    October
    Tables
    Android Publishing
    Facebook and Twitter Integration
    Snap-to-grid




    I don't like when the team just text some word and don't care anymore

    we only get 2 out of 9 in more then 2 and a have months(and lion does not even count cause we don't have autosave and such), so please say you can't do when you can't, don't say you can do a lot of thing but overall that is not true at all

    thanks,
    CAlvin
  • mu-kowAPPSmu-kowAPPS Member Posts: 233
    @micksolo I couldn't agree with you more.
    I've been learning lua in my spare time just in case I feel the need to move away from GS to corona. I also watch construct2, they have awesome/frequent updates.

    GS does seem very out of touch with the needs of its userbase...

    Who really cares about a marketplace or a new forum? Wouldn't everyone rather have IAP, joints, Tables etc...
  • calvin9403calvin9403 Member Posts: 3,186
    @mu kow

    Who really cares about a marketplace or a new forum? Wouldn't everyone rather have IAP, joints, Tables etc...


    I don't agree, all of them is important

    Calvin
  • mu-kowAPPSmu-kowAPPS Member Posts: 233
    But what would you rather have? You can buy images anywhere online, people were managing to sell templates, the new forum basically just looks different and is slightly more convenient.

    I'm just saying that GS should dedicate more of its resources to the creator, because, that's its only product and the only reason a forum/marketplace is needed.
  • ultimaultima Member, PRO Posts: 1,207
    edited December 2011
    +100000

    it's true that we don't care about market place except (well except for the high quality templates, or even better free templates)
  • ozboybrianozboybrian PRO Posts: 2,102
    Spread sheets and Joints will make me a happy Chappy asking for a life time Pro Membership! ;)

    Oh custom load screens would be nice. Damn loading icon is to distracting.
  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    edited December 2011
    Micksolo stated:
    It seems the focus of Gamesalad is introducing new features before we have basic features. And whilst many of those features are really cool - HTML5, Marketplace, Kiip Rewards...these are not things that are going to help us make a top 10 game.
    While I think GameSalad keeps missing — or messing up — big opportunities to grow, I actually think the HTML5 option is something that can set GameSalad apart from the competitors... the Marketplace might be a good idea too. Kiip... I'm highly skeptical of the longterm value of this feature. (I think AdMob support should have been added before iAds. It shouldn't be too hard to do.)


    HTML5 - Now that Flash is clearly the loser in the Flash vs HTML5 war, what is the replacement for creating interactive web content. I think GameSalad could be that software, but it has to release some of the restrictions and add significant improvements to HTML5 games. Quite frankly, I think the party is over for App development. I've seen apps given away for free and people still complain about them. There was a race to the bottom and the developers lost. Marathon, Pigs in Trees, Jaws, Flight Control, Streets of Rage 2, Bejeweled 2, Hard Lines... can the average GameSalad developer truly expect to compete with games like this... when games like this can be downloaded for free?
  • micksolomicksolo Member Posts: 264
    HTML5 is useless at the moment. we can't publish to our own sites, we can't monetize it, its slow and there are other better tools out there such as construct 2.

    About your question - If GS had all the features that enable us to make those games, and also gave us IAP then yes, we could compete with those games. Andreas Illiger made Tiny Wings by himself. If he can do it, why can't we? There's plenty of other smaller guys making good money on the app store with very niche games. I believe its also about being smart about your concept, marketing and positioning and having a very polished game that people can understand the concept easily. That's half the battle. The other half is about having tools to make games that don't take 45 seconds to load a simple game. that can do simple, fun collisions and can be upgraded easily. Its not all about Gamesalad, its also about you and your concepts.

    The core focus of Gamesalad is skewed - it should be about "making tools that non-coders can make top 10 games with". Not trying to release pie in the sky stuff every couple of months - while that looks great to potential investors, it means that the core tool suffers...and it has been.

    If they just focussed all their resources on creator, got it to a point where it had all the features we needed, then you start to see much better games being made. And with that developers would start making enough money to do it full time, and then quality would then increase again.

    The goal should be that a GS game is number 1 on the app store, then they'd have amazing publicity "non coder made number 1 game with gamesalad" and you'd get hundreds of thousands of people all starting to use GS - and converting many of them to pro users. Quality keeps going up etc etc.
  • micksolomicksolo Member Posts: 264
    edited December 2011
    I think one feature that would help is that Gamesalad release an SDK so third party guys can write plugins. You could sell it through the marketplace. I'd pay $50 for IAP or Facebook integration!

    This would solve a lot of issues, and also means that not many resources would be taken away from the main team.
  • JohnPapiomitisJohnPapiomitis Member Posts: 6,256
    edited December 2011
    Honestly you cant compare gamesalad to unity. There on a completly different level and always will be. I love gamesalad and want the best for it of course, but its kinda silly to think youll ever get the kind of abilities out of a drag and drop codeless engine then you would coding in c#.

    And from a coders standpoint, corona is nothing special

    Frequent crashes, there main concern is monetization features and choose that above way more important stuff, no intergration of native libraries or code, sucks to debug and the simulator misses alot sometimes, and your projects are compiled on there server and returned to you as a executable just like gamesalad does.

    Also theres the fact the gamesalad is still in beta, and theres tons to come before any official 1.0 release.
  • mynameisacemynameisace Hull, UKMember Posts: 2,484
    Boom Boom POW!
  • POMPOM Member Posts: 2,599
    edited December 2011
    @SSS
    "In the first part of 2012, we will be releasing IAP, Tables, GameCenter Achievements and Twitter/FB integration."

    First part meaning January ? or by saying "first part" you mean April-May ?
    We're waiting for these features forever , it seems like there's always a half year delay !
    Roy.
  • SlickZeroSlickZero Houston, TexasMember, Sous Chef Posts: 2,870
    I think GameSalad is perfectly capable of making a top 10 game. There just hasn't been a developer capable of making one. That being said, there are dozens of games made by developers here that should be in the top 10. Tiny Balls, Bumps, Spooky Hooves, Penguin Glide, the new Cheese Man game, Air Supply, etc… etc…The list goes on. All these developers, and lots more here make top 10 worthy games. They just get buried by those of us, and many, many others that don't make those quality of games.
  • POMPOM Member Posts: 2,599
    edited December 2011
    @SlickZero
    Don't get me wrong I agree with what you say, but I still think that the current GS engine is a big limitation that prevents us from reaching those high ranks..
    For example my last game "Spin The Nut: Christmas Is Coming" reached to top 50# overall in Japan and china , and got high ranks in many more countries and I got countless reviews and mails complaining about the loading times, and the lack of gamecenter achievements ..
    The lack of Facebook and twitter integration is also limiting our "native advertisement" that our games should have..
    Also the lack of IAP prevents us from getting high ranks in the Top Grossing section and this also stops the snow ball from growing..
    We need those features ( Tables, GameCenter Achievements and Twitter/FB integration ect) and i honestly think that the lack of them is killing our games!
    I love gamesalad but this long waiting for Those trivial features is starting to get Irritating..

    Roy.
  • POMPOM Member Posts: 2,599
    edited December 2011
    Indeed..
    Sprite sheets and tables will make the code 10 times more efficient, and will consume less CPU power and RAM.
    Using them will make our games much better. .

    Roy.
  • HapiappsHapiapps Member Posts: 373
    +1 to Tshirt
  • mu-kowAPPSmu-kowAPPS Member Posts: 233
    @SSS this is entirely unacceptable . This is basically the same response we get every time people in the community start to become dissatisfied.

    Early next year!? Outrageous!

    Your web and creator team work independently of each other? That's nice, fire half of your web team and hire that many people to work on the creator.

    Or,

    Hire better coders for the creator.

    -a highly disappointed customer-
  • EthanZarovEthanZarov Member Posts: 156
    I agree. I almost think that some of the pro memberships should be cheaper because if people have these things, people will take their time, and maybe get their game above angry birds for a day or two. I really would like this
  • SparkyidrSparkyidr Member Posts: 2,033
    Whilst it is of course really disappointing that the features mentioned are now delayed into 2012...and also that we would of course love a better performing engine and a creator with more features, those of us that have been around here for a while will remember the days of massive loading times, and a creator that would grind to a halt after 5 mins of use, and no save/load attributes.

    This year has deffo had more improvements (as well as a few dodgy buggy releases). But looking long term, things are better now than have been before.

    Roll on 2012. Lets make things even better.
  • mu-kowAPPSmu-kowAPPS Member Posts: 233
    @tshirtbooth yeah, it could be 2-3 weeks, buuuuut I foresee 2-3 months given their current track record.
    Also, GS has more competition now right? They'd better kick it up a notch.

    @SSS what about Kiip? I don't really care all that much about this feature but it was slotted for mid dec. is this yet another feature undelivered.

    If GS were a pizza man, there would be a lot of free pizzas being delivered
  • ultimaultima Member, PRO Posts: 1,207
    edited December 2011
    it's an understatement that there aren't developers here who's able to make the top 10 list. but the guys in the top 10 list doesn't choose Gamesalad as their tool for developing for a reason.

    it still has big room for improvement, and most of us choose to stick around because we do see great potential. but like any gemstone. potential means nothing if you don't cut it, polish it, and finesse it to perfection... so get to work GS team.
  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef Posts: 9,934
    @mu-kowAPS I think more coders is thier problem to begin with so I hardly think adding more people to the mix will make things better. They would'veuch better servers IMO getting the origina coders back on it and liking everyone else out of the room. There are good thinks to come they are just taking longer than we all expected.
  • calvin9403calvin9403 Member Posts: 3,186
    @SSS

    I hope that is true, not just telling everyone anymore :)

    Calvin
  • butterbeanbutterbean Member Posts: 4,315
    Tshirt is right, in comparison to the previous 3 years, this year has been the most fruitful in terms of updates.

    Here's to 2012! :)
  • micksolomicksolo Member Posts: 264
    "Fingers Crossed"

    I think its time we started putting our own pressure on GS to start focussing on us. Its not good enough to just hope that we'll get the features we need to make better games.

    We are GS' customers, their revenue base. Why don't we get a say? How many people on here would have voted for marketplace, HTML5 if we had a say? While GS say that they listen to us, they clearly don't. The last roadmap was written with us in mind, then thrown out the door pretty much straight away.

    The simple fact is that GS is not focussed on their customers. It's not acceptable for any middleware vendor to take over a year to support key functions in a device manufacturers API. I don't buy the "beta" thing either. It's been in beta for 3 years, its just another way for them to avoid responsibility for releasing buggy software. So if you're going to release "Beta" software then don't charge us. Or else call it a release version and make sure its not buggy.

    All I'm saying is we need to be a little more proactive and organised if we're going to get what we want. If you went to a restaurant and your ordered a steak, but they delivered a bowl of pasta would you complain? Or would you just eat it and hope that next time around they got the order right?
  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef Posts: 9,934
    Micksolo that's simply not true. The first road map was written based on our user input and the feature surveys GS sent out. They met all but 1-2 of thier targets for the first set in the roadmap. Then they shifted focus majorly based on the communities outcry for performance improvements they re wrote the road map again to reflect the shift in focus. They have definitly fallen behind right here at the End of the year but the road map is just a target not a guarantee. They've done pretty well IMO of coarse there have been mistakes along the way. Last I checked these guys are still human.
  • dmilinovichiiidmilinovichiii Member Posts: 620
    I personally wish that they didn't touch the forum in the first place. I didn't see anything wrong with it. There was no need to fix something that wasn't broken. I also wouldn't mind if GameSalad took so long to deliver if the Pro wasn't $500. Something in the $200-$300 range might be worth it, but at the current cost, I just see buying Pro as taking a loss.

    GameSalad also needs to stay focused on what people want also.
    I do like the ability to do things like this with HTML,
    although I would much prefer joints, IAP, arrays, tables, vectors, etc. No one asked GameSalad for a forum update or Klip. I personally think Klip is interesting, but GameSalad should have at least asked us about it first.
  • micksolomicksolo Member Posts: 264
    Which roadmap are you referring to?

    I know people make mistakes - but this doesn't seem to be about making mistakes. they have fallen way behind and the company's focus is not on the customer anymore. What happened 6 months ago is not relevant to what's happening now, because right now we're getting features that long term might be great, but aren't really helping us.

    Construct 2 is written by a 2 man team. that's right. there's 2 of them, and the tool seems to be a far more featured tool than GS with much better performance (in HTML5). If Construct supported native iOS games you wouldn't be hearing from me in this thread because I'd be happily using Construct 2. and thats the reality of what Gamesalad is facing, and why they need to start focussing more on the customers and less on the things that are going to secure their next round of investment (and focussing on their customers will actually increase the likelihood of getting more investment).
  • lycettebroslycettebros Member, PRO Posts: 1,598
    edited December 2011
    In many ways the market economics will sort this all out. If GS do not deliver then people will go to alternatives and it will wither and die. Having said that I do hope that does not happen as I have only recently discovered GS, am investing hours into it, have released our first app and love the power it gives me.

    I (like others) are quickly developing a loyalty and nostalgia for GS (like I did for Flash and Director) but I can see here others who have been around GS longer have lost that to frustration and dare I say impatience....give me 6 months and I may join you.
    After seeing the post about Corona I will go and look at the competition - it is in MY interests to do so. If they (Corona etc.) are better or prove themselves the winner simply because they out market GS (like Adobe over Macromedia) then so be it - it is a tough world in software. I am glad I am not part of it but I am held hostage to it and the decisions of who I support or dump. My nostalgic side is hoping GS will last even if it is bought out by one of the big boys.

    These poor GS engineers are clearly working their guts out and I feel for them - good luck with it.
  • SlickZeroSlickZero Houston, TexasMember, Sous Chef Posts: 2,870
    The original Roadmap that came out in the beginning of the year got changed due solely to user input. Then the community started asking for better performance, so they shifted direction to focus on that, and the things on the Roadmap got moved down further, again, due to user input. During the performance upgrades, they've had some set backs, and had to stay focused on fixing that. Some people want this, and some people want that. When they don't get what they want, when they want it, they get upset, and this is the nature of things. Overall, GameSalad has worked towards exactly what the community has asked of them.
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