SUGGESTION: GS Splash Screen can be considered misleading
synthesis
Member Posts: 1,693
In looking at the GameSalad splash screen text from an ethics and perhaps legal angle...
The sentence that reads:
"made with GameSalad" could be mis-understood that the app was a Joint Venture project between the developer and Gamesalad...which would be false...as if GameSalad were a physical entity in physical participation of the app's development.
If the sentence were modified to:
"made using GameSalad" IMO would be more appropriate and would suggest that gameSalad is a non-entity and a "tool" and would be more suggestive of such.
Gendai, please consider the serious intentions of this post.
The sentence that reads:
"made with GameSalad" could be mis-understood that the app was a Joint Venture project between the developer and Gamesalad...which would be false...as if GameSalad were a physical entity in physical participation of the app's development.
If the sentence were modified to:
"made using GameSalad" IMO would be more appropriate and would suggest that gameSalad is a non-entity and a "tool" and would be more suggestive of such.
Gendai, please consider the serious intentions of this post.
Comments
I disagree.
The issue is...the splash screen is tied to the app. Sure the software "translated" the code logic...but GS is a non-entity. It is software and the only GS element that could be considered copywritten is the game engine and its method logic. The app content and creative dynamics are the property of the developer. Just as if you wrote a book with MS Word...Microsoft doesn't own the book copyrights...although they own the software code that allowed the user to write the book in Word.
If Microsoft put a sentence on the cover of your book saying: "Made with Microsoft"...it could suggest that the author and Microsoft teamed together to create the book and its content. If the book cover said "Published with Word", you could argue the same thing. But if the cover said "Published (or written) USING Word"...it says something completely different. If the book were titled "I Love Bubbles" then MS might not care about this...but if the book were titled "Mein Kampf"...then that would be a different story...and perhaps MS would want to distance themselves ENTIRELY from any type of implied connection.
This was my point above.
@BTT
using the word "by" suggests the same thing as "with"...although the phrase "powered by..." is more appropriate than "Made with..." or "Made by..." IMO but only if it were followed by "the GS game engine". The most ethical (again IMO) phrase would still be "Made USING GS"...or something very similar.
(who owns the cookies? Who gets sued if they are poisonous?).
You made cookies USING a recipe book
(the recipe is property of the writer...not Adobe...whose software was used to publish the book. The cookies are yours to sell and you owe no royalties to the writer if they taste good. And there is no suggestion that you made the cookies WITH the writer in your kitchen. You simply tell people you made the cookies USING a great recipe.)
Again...this is semantics...but my point is that one can interpret hte meaning different ways (using "made with")...where one should NOT be able to do so ("made using" eliminates the chance for any ethics debate or mis-interpretation).
I like GS a lot...but the price point difference between the indie license and the pro license is a big gap. At $2,000/year...that puts it at 3 times the annual subscription pricing of 3DStudioMax and 5 times the subscription price of AutoCad and 4 times the annual price of Photoshop and 10 times the annual pricing of MS Office. And its unproven Beta and no where near the capabilities or stability of those proven platforms.
Plus...FREE open source software that creates apps is already available (name withheld out of respect to GS). The software is native based and requires no XCode knowledge by the developer...but instead uses very common web-coding languages (html and php). Its not as GUI as GS but it definitely has its upsides and for the pros...its a VERY viable alternative (and they are PC or MAC based...not just MAC based).
However it currently has no physics engine built into it...YET. But it is only a matter of time until it does. Plus with Flash entering the marketplace anytime now...GS's future is in question.
So the issue resides in is the $2000/yr worth removing the GS logo. IMO...not yet...not until the Game Engine is optimized enough that the excessive GS engine's memory use does not interfere with a designers vision for a game. GS has its place in the market...but for serious developers to drop $2000 on a cadillac when there are future software packages arriving to market soon in direct competition to GS...its a tough figure to swallow annually or plan into our business models...especially with the game engine so limiting right now.
I'm willing to give GS time...and the splash screen credit doesn't bother me...but what does bother me is if my game...once to market has the splash screen and it suggests in any way shape or form that my game was co-developed with another entity...well that is borderline unacceptable. Currently GS has the corner on the market...but that position is in imminent jeopardy. So for loyalty to remain once the rivals enter the marketplace...GS will either need to dramatically improve its game engine overhead demands and beat the market on technical merits...or it will need to drop pricing and get more Dev friendly in every way shape and form...otherwise...99% of their subscriptions will be at the $99 level.
I mean no disrespect...just offering feedback to Gendai...which I understand has invited such suggestions/criticisms. If frankness like this offends them or anyone else...well...good luck with that attitude.
So while the price makes no sense to me, either, I haven't really worried about it.
And while I understand the point you're making about the wording, I don't believe anybody would see that splash screen and think "Oh, Eastbound teamed up with a guy named Game Salad to make this."
Powered by gamesalad gets my vote
I've been working with GS for 2 months now...and have yet to release a game because it won't fit on a device because the game engine sucks (RAM)...and we are not interested in developing BS bubble popping games or another version of Plinko. Half of that dev time was spent on optimizing and INVENTING new workarounds to get it to fit in the keyhole of RAM GS left me.
Otherwise...if their business model is based on massive numbers using teenager driven $99 licenses building 10M taptard games...well...hope that business model works out for them.
I haven't drank the Apple or GameSalad Kool-aid. I'm a windows person and am forced to Apple-ize to enter the appStore world. That's fine...I don't mind...I'm flexible. But GS has a lot to prove to think that they are worth $2K when adobe is entering the market this summer (as early as April I have heard rumored). And yes...Flash will be on the app-store...in a native form. It is already there in several prototype examples. The new Flash will push apps out in XCode just as if you were to publish to an .exe file or a .swf file...in much the same way that GS works. It will be available soon and once it is...there will be a tidal wave of apps arriving to the app store. The pent up demand for this Flash release is ENORMOUS just because of the XCode integration. It will make Adobe billions of $$.
Our intention for our apps is to do at least $10K per month on an app franchise (3 or 4 apps tied together)...no matter what for at least 6 months and then maintain sales at half that through franchise branding, sequels and title spin-offs. We have been working on our first franchise for over 8 months in native XCode. Those apps will begin release this month hopefully (next month at the latest). I was SUPER EXCITED to discover GS last January...but after 2 months of 15 hour days...GS has let me down. IT IS CURRENTLY EXTREMELY LIMITED in its game engine optimization and the only thing it has going for it RIGHT NOW is a lack of competition. This will change very soon.
So if GS wants to stay relevant...they need to get it into high gear and get their game engine working right...get more DEV friendly...get visible with us...and not with a bunch of schmucks at trade shows...and give us a product that exceeds our expectations and doesn't bog down.
Otherwise...if the competition arrives...there will be a massive evacuation...except for the $99 small timers that don't do this for real and the kool-aid drinkers.
PS:
@TSB...you didn't offend me...but don't get drunk on the Kool-Aid. I'm writing to Gendai a frank criticism and analysis. They are way too unresponsive and time isn't on their side! And I'm tired of coding in circles trying to get a somewhat simple game to operate within their INCREDIBLY BLOATED game engine. Either they don't have what it takes or they do...but they have yet to prove it one way or the other. This next release will be critical in my opinion...whenever it comes.
I think the GS engine can produce if you work within its limitations and are fine with that. Some great things can be produced (i.e. TSB's, FMG's, Eastbound's, etc. work) but with some additional effort from the DEVS, a great deal more freedom would be obtained. Maybe the DEVS are nose-to-the-grindstone but with the lack of input lately and all the tradeshows, it comes off as maybe not.
And I know and respect it is a Beta product but I also agree with Syn in the "put us before the tradeshow schmucks" since ultimately, our end products will help their expansion more so than any meet-n-greet will. I'm not saying don't get a booth at the tradeshows but also don't make them your focus when the sales/marketing dude/dudette can sit there and deliver enough info and pass out enough collateral to get the job done close enough to actually having multiple techies from the team attend.
I would imagine "Danger Cats" has done more for the GS engine than their attendance at SXSW.
If the DEVS could pull off the first two points in my post here:
http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=3717#post-28412
the GS engine would be much more rock solid and less troubling to the newbies.
@TSB: Just to clarify, the newest Adobe Flash is supposed to take a (slightly restricted in features) Flash app and then actually put out an XCode project that runs natively on the iPhone. It is not wrapping a full-blown Flash player but some sort of stripped down engine - basically what GS is doing (i.e the GS engine in an XCode project interpreting our GS apps).
I don't think GS is perfect, but I have seen what good GS developers can do and it is hard for me to blame much on the limitations of the game engine (though I admit there are improvements that need to be made).
I also agree that removing the logo looks more professional but you cant really complain when they give you an option to do that.
Keep in I have only been using GS since the last week of January and I am getting really close to recouping my costs entirely.
•Pro Membership
•Mac Mini
•A little paid facebook and admob advertising for an initial boost with doodle mosnter
In terms of operating a "professional" business, 2k is a SMALL investment and if i can get my money made back with a Ok at best doodle game I think its more than possible.
With the two apps i have coming out and some savvy marketing plans, I Plan to finish recouping by the first week of april.
I dont regret my upgrade at all and am looking forward to some great ales in the future.
I also tried and compared the three "major" engines first before finally after some time going with GS.
I was nearing completion with a game in torque when i ended up dropping it out of frustration.
It sounds like, based on a couple forum posts, that even the $2000 Pro members aren't really getting the support that was promised them.
More info on the current engine, a product roadmap with appropriate disclaimers, a little more interaction on the forums, etc. would put some folks at ease knowing they are going down a path that will continue to be a path worth traveling.
REd block 2
traffic ninja
jumples
doodle crash
But I don't think it is fair to say that the GS engine is basically worthless. Tshirt has made 12K and it would seem that he is just getting started.
GS works pretty well if you know how to use it. Sure it has limitations, but it has advantages as well. Mainly that apps can be developed very quickly.
I dont think anyone gives a poop tart about the splash to be honest. We are bombarded with logos all day everyday. If anyone says anything its because it was there for 30 seconds not because they thought it wasn't your game.
Also do we really need to dis everything everyone else makes in the app store?
If it wasn't for all the "tap tard" (which did make me lol) we wouldn't be doing this.
It takes masses to make games to necessitate engines like this. If you have the masses making games you get some crappy ones but, there would be no GS or anything like that if it was just a few large companies programming from scratch in coco.
All i'm saying is when you come off sounding negative like that no one will listen.
I've done it once too. And after reading it, i felt kind of dumb.
I'm sure t-shirt could probably send them an email and suggest something and never even complain on the forums about it and it would probably happen eventually.
Also @ Sci, I agree its not useless
It is just a fun little engine to make fun little games.
If you want to make the next killer platformer there are other options. It is what it is.
Even in the demo they show a version of astroids... hardly misleading
As I stated before, this could go a long way:
More info on the current engine, a product roadmap with appropriate disclaimers, a little more interaction on the forums, etc. would put some folks at ease knowing they are going down a path that will continue to be a path worth traveling.
Back to point...the wording on the splash screen is relevant. I refer my beginning posts for my argument on that. Whether you think it is relevant to $99 vs $2000 is irrelevant. The basic point lies that IMO, the wording is a bit mis-leading (albeit quite subtly) and I recommend it change.
On the remaining points, For GS to be priced at an ultra-premium price point for URL forwarding and Splash screen removal is absurd. The $99 is a fair price but in its current state of game engine chaos...that is questionable IMO. The idea that they WERE charging $499 for an even lesser quality version is ridiculous. I would be REALLY pissed off if I paid $500 and the limitations were even more than what they are now.
Yes the $2000 upgrade is optional. But if Gendai wants more pro dev memberships...things are going to have to change drastically. If they don't need them...and their business model is sound at $99 "taptard" game development support...then fine...Don't change a thing.
But if you expect "knowledgeable" developers and you want respect of the development community (which currently in large part thinks GS is a joke), then you are going to have to become more visible...more informative...and more serious about getting in "partnership" with the developers and responding to us, informing us and getting GS much better optimized...QUICKLY.
I think GS can seriously expand and has great potential...but software like this better be fit and nimble and adapt quickly...especially in the gold rush world of mobile app development. 1 year is a lifetime in this "game" and they better be fast and slick to keep pace. I really do like GS. It has sped overall game development quite a bit. But for me, after having invested 2 SERIOUSLY INTENSE months in one game and get to the near finish point and basically having optimized the CRAP out of it and still barely have it operate on a device with only about 6-10 dynamic actors...is absolutely unacceptable. The fact that when you add 1 damn empty actor to the game engine and you use over 30-40% of the resources available on a device is ludicrous. The fact that adding a 300 kb image file causes over 4MB of RAM damage is also plain stupid. And the fact that I am forced to throw up my hands and play guessing games as to why...is also stupid...since there are no development notes or code to look at...just some generic test numbers and this fantastic group of forum users.
I'm not sure what else I can say. I will continue to try and get my game to work within the tiny allowances I have. Even if GS could get 20% lighter...it would be a HUGE release of RAM for game execution.
So alas...I will continue to try to get this game published. But Gendai...if you take anything away from this thread...(that is if you are reading it)...at least get a few more press releases and/or progress reports out to us and let us know what is happening. The occasional announcement that you are going to be in some convention hall with free T-shirts and that you have a need for a few of us to show up and set up chairs is not what I am talking about.
I'm talking about getting your head out of your arse and COMMUNICATING with your users.
@James:
"Even in the demo they show a version of astroids... hardly misleading".
If the intent of Gendai is to limit us with building the next ho-hum asteroids games and expect us to compete head to head with games like PvZ...they are out to lunch. This is where I use the "taptard" description. I am not making fun of the hobby based devs here...I am referring to the fact that taptard games are all that is going to be built with GS unless they optimize heavily...since that is all that seems to fit on a device after GS is done with it. And you might sell 10 a week as a result and the GS exposure/respect will be NULL. But if GS were to improve soon...to the point that we can push a respectable/advanced game out on it...and get in the top 100 or top 250 with it...and prove its capability...then that will payback Gendai tenfold over some schmooze fest at the Hyatt.
And if they don't do it before Flash CS5 hits the street...they are going to be behind the 8 ball really quick.
I somehow agree with synthesis.
I have already seen comments from users like "it was made with GS, it can only be BS".
The logo is not really a good advertisement at the moment probably, but $2000 is too much to get rid of it.
I have to publish my games yet and see the responses, but at the moment I am also not really sure, if GS is a good certificate if you want to be pro (I mean pro developer)
"this is not ENTIRELY true, we would gladly accept your money for the $2000
I added the caps for emphasis to make my point. In my opinion codemonkey confirmed what myself and others were speculating about.
So we can disagree with this philosophy but gendai seems to think that the more people who learn about GS the better. So I don't think they really think that URL and splash removal is actually worth 1900. They just want more people to have games out there with the GS logo as it is advertising for them.
Now, I don't want to call other people's games crap (as many of mine fall in the category!) but I did see a review on a GS game that said "I don't know what this gamesalad is but this game engine has a long way to go.." - or something to that effect. So I also wonder if gendai is helping or hurting themselves when their logo is the first thing people see when they feel ripped off by a game they just purchased that they don't like.
I have also seen a few negitive comments regarding games made with gamesalad eg. "this game sucks it's a gamesalad game all the games them guys make suck. Don't buy this game."
So I agree that the wording on the splash screen is important.
It's not necessarily that "`GS=crap`" since good things can be done with it. It is more like "`GS=lots-of-newbies-who-are-learning-and-possibly-turning-out-crap-and-contribute-to-the-flood-of-apps-which-maybe-shouldn't-have-been-published-in-their-current-version-until-they-have-gotten-better`." Sorry, mouthful, I know.
Guilt by association can play in here...especially when the jaded hardcore games weigh-in in the iTunes apps' comments and threads at web sites such as Touch Arcade.
This reinforces my point in the beginning post...
The gameSalad attachment is read and interpreted by the user base as a Co-Developer of the games being created by GameSalad...meaning all gameSalad games are lumped together (unintentionally perhaps) into one big group. This doesn't happen with Unity3D or other established game engines (logo or not)...perhaps because they are more sophisticated game engines.
People don't do this when they read a book from one author to another author just because of who published it or the fact that one was written on word and another in notepad (or with a pen on paper).
I think there needs to be a CLEAR definition in the splash screen by GS that shows they are a GAME ENGINE and not a CO-DEVELOPER or CREATIVE FORCE in the game's execution. This may help their reputation (and ours)...and not force all of us to be lumped together in the marketplace...which helps NO ONE! its hard enough to stand out as it is without taptard baggage (no offense to anyone I hope) to carry along with us.
Add to add...I say again...$2K to remove this baggage is a heavy price annually...with the game engine being SOOOO immature...compared to the pricing of other game engines...and if Gendai thinks they are soooo special that they deserve that sort of premium...then we all might as well leave right now as they will be out of business in 8-12 months...unless their papa bear sponsors keep them afloat artificially...and probably in vain.
EXAMPLE: Code monkey tried to hint that maybe they would get ipad ready soon. No promises and now people are already pissed off about misleading. (even though it could still happen)
No wonder they don't tell us anything. I wouldn't.
And i'm sorry to say but all this seems A) a little armchair quarterback-ish and
No one popped out and said hey all... We're done deal with the engine the way it is.
I'm sure someone loses plenty sleep trying to make this better.
Its easy to sit back and say what someone should do with their business but the simple fact remains if it was that easy we would all have done it. And again its not good business practice to over promise and telling us what we want to hear even if it is in the pipeline just isn't a good idea.
UNTIL THEY GET THE DAMN 3G RIGHT...WHAT'S THE POINT!!!
@James
and what do you mean "over-promise". They haven't told us a dang in thing in 2 months...other than they don't have time to deal with us because they are too busy [ edit ] partying at the Hyatt.
CODE-MONKEY'S words...not mine!!!
Read the [edit] freakin' YELLOW PARTS
http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=3717
[ edited for content inappropriate for young viewers
`
DISCLAIMER: The following information was provided as-is with no promise of what version the work/feature(s) will be released in or on what date. Make your application release plans with the assumption that this work/feature(s) list may not come anytime soon given the variance in implementing said work/feature(s).
Priorities actively being worked:
- Performance (2 headcount full-time)
- Shoring up the behavior execution to make it more reliable (1 headcount)
Currently being worked on but not a priority amongst our three remaining devs:
- Adding "triangle" collision region to go along with existing "circle"/"rectangle" regions
- Adding "pause" feature back in
- Integrating in-app purchase
Items slated to begin, in order, once items above are complete and solid:
- inter-actor communication
- pixel-level collision detection
- Open Feint support
- Admob ad support
Once again:
DISCLAIMER: The preceding information was provided as-is with no promise of what version the work/feature(s) will be released in or on what date. Make your application release plans with the assumption that this work/feature(s) list may not come anytime soon given the variance in implementing said work/feature(s).
`
I think that would quell some folks' questions as well as offer some hope for folks with expectations for the product in the long run.
Most products hype soon-to-be-released features or features in the works. As long as they are disclaimed appropriately, they cannot be held to promises. I know GS forums get a lot of young-uns who may throw a minor tantrum if expectations are not clarified but having something like the above may give the more mature and professional folks a little more hook to hang their hat on.
ANY OTHER SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT COMPANY WOULD DO IN BETA TRIALS.
(being sarcastic rebump...good post though
God I'm frustrated.
They keep their cards close to the vest and whether we like it or not - if they're smart they'll keep it that way.