I don't think anyone is asking users to wait for push. That would be beyond absurd. And I've never met a person that claims that poor quality games will be fixed with push.
I'm simply trying to convince people of the importance of push.
It's not an 'opinion' that you make more money with push. Even a crap game will make more, just not as much as a great game. Right now the vast vast majority of top grossing games make money by getting users to play their game more and more. Is it your claim that push doesn't help significantly in getting users to come back to your game? People forget to play even the greatest of games.
It's estimated that push leads to 18% to 30% bump in usage. That is nothing scoff at or simply dismiss.
What would a 30% bump in usage, week after week, mean to your ad revenues? Your splash ads? Your IAPs?
Not to mention that the launch period of a game is so critically important. Being able to push a notification about the launch of your new app, to all of your game users, is one of the most powerful things you can do. It's proven that it much much easier to sell to a current customer. This is just a fact. Acquiring new customers is very hard.
As far as launches go, sending a push notification is certainly leaps and bounds more easy than getting reviewed by a top app site or getting on a free app of the day site. A push notification can mean the difference between of getting on a top 100 list or not. That's can mean tens of thousands of dollars in revenue.
No amount of bromides or cliches in your posts can deny that push is extremely powerful.
Certainly no one denies that making a great game is the most important thing you can do when it comes to success with apps. In fact I've yet to read anyone claiming that it isn't. And GS makes great progress to help us create these amazing games.
However why is that an argument against pushing GS to implement such a powerful tool like push notifications? Why should we have tunnel vision? Why not convince the community to lobby for this?
Let's take my Urban Airship suggestion. Urban airship does push notifications for iPhone, Android and others. You can get a free account, which I think gets you a million free notifications a month. Something like that. After you exhaust those messages it's very cheap.
Anyway the product is basically a drag and drop solution to push. You put in their code, with your info, and then you use their service to send push notifications. To say it's easy is an understatement. Most tools I find support Urban Airship... they just aren't as good as GS. Urban Airship is the number one provider of push and are used by many many large companies like the NHL, USA Today, MSNBC, Sega, Fox, Showtime, etc.
I think Urban Airship is the perfect compromise. I'm sure GS could even get a commission on accounts created.
I get that it didn't make it into the survey. Which is the reason for me posting, to change the minds of the community. I get it. Is it not okay for me to try and change minds?
This discussion seems to be running on personal preference rather than numbers or facts. And that's unfair in my opinion because you're probably convincing people that push isn't a big deal, and that's just not true.
Granted there is little data about negative affects of push, but what's out there shows very little negative, especially that the users have to APPROVE push to even receive one message from you. This is why Apple asks for each and every app. To avoid negative affects. You can read about it.
Since quips seem to be the ammo of choice here, I'll join in.
If no one plays your game does it matter how amazing it is?
Not if you want to make money or build a business. If you're trying to impress your friends then you can ignore me.
This 'build it and they will come' mentality has crushed a lot of dreams and wasted a great deal of time and money. This 'build it and they will come' mentality is naive. Most people don't have an audience. I guess you do.
If you read case studies about how the vast majority of the big apps made it, you'll find that they built networks. You make apps, get a few people to download them, then market your new apps to them. You keep doing this to compound your audience until it's large enough to launch a top 500 or 100 game. This is the #1 strategy used today.
Try this without push. It's much much harder. Much much harder.
Sure there are cases of people getting lucky but that's not the rule.
Even an amazing app will be overlooked by everyone, even review sites, if there is no audience.
Push is not an aside or a small issue. Not if people want to build a business or make money. Trying to brush it off is unfair in my opinion. it's not like you're saying that feature X is much more important because of x, y and z. You pretend that push is not significant because it bothers you.
It's significant. Period.
How significant, compared to other features, is certainly debatable however brushing it off because of personal animus is unfair to the people reading... especially if they want to succeed.
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
If you are still waiting for the Commodore 64 to fix all of its bugs before you make games for it, you have missed the boat!
Well !@#$%, I wish you had told me this sooner than now. My career is OVER!!!!!!!!!!!! ~X(
@kandj25 has made some very valid points, in my opinion. The decision to not add Push Notifications onto the roadmap was the reason I chose to start this thread. We need to focus on what has been proven time and again to get the most downloads for new games for next to nothing, and that would be Push Notifications. I would consider my existing user base a valuable asset. Why would you not want to take advantage of that?
As far as the opinion shared by some that Push Notifications are annoying, as @kandj25 stated, that is almost irrelevant. If it's a proven method to get more downloads and help Pro members generate more revenue, I don't understand why GameSalad doesn't add it. I get that they have some engine issues to work out first. But let me be quite clear. if the priority is placed entirely on the GameSalad engine, I sure as hell better not see another advertising partner added before the engine is complete or Push Notifications have been added just because it may be better for the shareholders. And if one is added, you had better come to the table with a better argument for adding them besides it will "help" pro members generate more revenue. We've seen what has happened to advertising solutions when one doesn't preform.
GameSalad has some major issues to work through, and many more features to add which are relevant to the GS community, with push notifications pretty far down the list.
However, I don't understand the arguments people are making against GS implementing push notifications (regardless of how far down the roadmap it might end up). Push notifications are another important method of reaching your target audience. And simply put, developers should have EVERY tool at their deposal to increase their audience. If you want to be a purist and have completely ad free games, then fine, go be a purist. But please don't attempt to convince GS not to implement something strictly because you won't use it.
I think @kandj25 has made some very cogent and civil arguments. @SaladStraightShooter I think the basis of this argument is thus: users didn't ask for push notifications because they don't realize the potential of a well excited push campaign, thus it didn't seem to be a community need. @kandj25 is just trying to educate the community, so that they may understand the impacts of such a service. If an educated community still loathes the idea, then so be it. But its important that the community be told what the possible ramifications are, and I don't think its appropriate to try and shoot down such threads (talking generally here), particularly when they attempt to approach the issue civilly and logically.
Many of the counter arguments are valid as well, but even FMP said "I would argue that push notifications help you sell a lot of apps that are already fantastic." This not an argument to make crappy games with push, its an argument to increase an audience for great games. FMP is wise in saying that great games can be made with this tool, as Grisly Manor has proven. However, I've also noticed that both Grisly and Lost City, two excellent games, are no longer being built with GS.
FMP states "You cannot let a missing feature stop you. You need to be more resourceful. You need to work around it."
I just hope "work around it" doesn't have to mean moving to a new sdk. Gamesalad is evolving, and I applaud folks like @kandj25 for attempting to help with these types of threads.
@SaladStraightShooter i hate them too. But if we speak from the "wanted features list" that are from the PRO's. Can you show that list of the most-wanted features?! I'm wondering what's number one after LUA-free engine --- Benjamin
@kandj25 and @LiquidGameworks: I certainly didn't mean to derail the thread, and I totally agree. I want GameSalad to support every single feature. I wish there were no complaints.
And I actually like push notifications, I have them running on Words With Friends, Jewels with Buddies, Hanging with Friends, Scramble with Friends, etc. My phone is dinging constantly alerting me that it is my move!
It's just that we see so many of these posts, where people get discouraged because GameSalad doesn't have feature X implemented yet, and those developers just get frustrated and never finish anything.
There was a survey sent out a few days ago, asking Pro members to rank their favorite features. Many of the features on the list are things that people have been begging for for 3 years.
Actually, as is GameSalad's M.O., since Push Notifications were not on that list you can probably expect them in the next update ;-)
About the cliches and bromides, I meant them sincerely.
And yes, there are many ways to be successful on the App Stores. It does not only have to be freemium, with IAP, ads, or anything else. If I put any of that into my games they would absolutely sell less, not more.
But I agree that there are many ways to run a business, to make games, and they are all valid. And GameSalad should strive to support all of their developers, who can then in turn support the players of their games.
Hello guys, i read this discussion and for my opinion we have 2 point:
First, the push notification is good but for game in not necessary, why? because thinking if you receive a notification during your play? what is the reaction? istant go on setting, notification and turn off.
If we have a big game with IAP is good informing via PN you player with new object available to buy, but is not essential.
For me GameSalad need to improve a Facebook side, for exemple:
We create a game with many levels or worlds, and we want lock one for FB Like (Like on AppPage to Unlock a World) or i want to share my score on FB via App, that's important now to improve this, and improve also the HTML5 for FB, same App on FB but like a real FBApp and not only a iFrame for play.
So, for me push notification is not important, but i will ask to a dev team: please improve the Facebook side to help us to increment selling and visibility.
It just another thing for people to blame on as to why their game doesn't sell. A game doesn't sell because it's crap or people don't dig you idea. If you want more features and are serious about game development then learn a program like unity but oh that involves actual work and effort and everyone wants the easy money...oops my bad you want easy money play the lottery.
@FryingBaconStudios I totally agree to you, if they want easy money they should start like us in the 2008 with xcode and ObjectiveC, GameSalad is a good way to developer fast game for any people who do not know the NativeCode of iOS. Now on the AppStore there is over 10.000.000 Apps it is normal that we find it hard to sell our application.
To conclude, the solution is not PushNotification, is not Facebook or Twitter improve, is not the InAppPurchase or iAd, but is only our job and our power to advertise our Games!
I think this topic is only to says at dev team how to improve GameSalad Creator for make it more easy to share and develop our games here you don't find a solution to make money quick and easy.
I myself have spent the last four months using and learning unity and unity JavaScript. It's not that hard if you study and practice. I planned on taking a year to learn it completely before I begin a feature game using it. The power is light years past GS but I think GS is a great tool for 2d games. People spout this stuff and have no idea what it takes to integrate some of this complex code. If they did, they would just code it themselves as GS will never replace writing code as code is 100% custom.
I would say there are more important things, but a lot of studies show push is a really great help for reminding users of your app - thus boosting revenue.
@saladstraightshooter I actually have to say, I agree with that article as a consumer - But as a developer I believe push is perfectly brilliant when used properly, i.e for updates and helpful tips,
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I'll just add:
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Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
QS
:DDr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
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And I've never met a person that claims that poor quality games will be fixed with push.
I'm simply trying to convince people of the importance of push.
It's not an 'opinion' that you make more money with push. Even a crap game will make more, just not as much as a great game. Right now the vast vast majority of top grossing games make money by getting users to play their game more and more. Is it your claim that push doesn't help significantly in getting users to come back to your game? People forget to play even the greatest of games.
It's estimated that push leads to 18% to 30% bump in usage. That is nothing scoff at or simply dismiss.
What would a 30% bump in usage, week after week, mean to your ad revenues? Your splash ads? Your IAPs?
Not to mention that the launch period of a game is so critically important. Being able to push a notification about the launch of your new app, to all of your game users, is one of the most powerful things you can do. It's proven that it much much easier to sell to a current customer. This is just a fact. Acquiring new customers is very hard.
As far as launches go, sending a push notification is certainly leaps and bounds more easy than getting reviewed by a top app site or getting on a free app of the day site. A push notification can mean the difference between of getting on a top 100 list or not. That's can mean tens of thousands of dollars in revenue.
No amount of bromides or cliches in your posts can deny that push is extremely powerful.
Certainly no one denies that making a great game is the most important thing you can do when it comes to success with apps. In fact I've yet to read anyone claiming that it isn't. And GS makes great progress to help us create these amazing games.
However why is that an argument against pushing GS to implement such a powerful tool like push notifications? Why should we have tunnel vision? Why not convince the community to lobby for this?
Let's take my Urban Airship suggestion. Urban airship does push notifications for iPhone, Android and others. You can get a free account, which I think gets you a million free notifications a month. Something like that. After you exhaust those messages it's very cheap.
Anyway the product is basically a drag and drop solution to push. You put in their code, with your info, and then you use their service to send push notifications. To say it's easy is an understatement. Most tools I find support Urban Airship... they just aren't as good as GS. Urban Airship is the number one provider of push and are used by many many large companies like the NHL, USA Today, MSNBC, Sega, Fox, Showtime, etc.
I think Urban Airship is the perfect compromise. I'm sure GS could even get a commission on accounts created.
This discussion seems to be running on personal preference rather than numbers or facts. And that's unfair in my opinion because you're probably convincing people that push isn't a big deal, and that's just not true.
Granted there is little data about negative affects of push, but what's out there shows very little negative, especially that the users have to APPROVE push to even receive one message from you. This is why Apple asks for each and every app. To avoid negative affects. You can read about it.
Since quips seem to be the ammo of choice here, I'll join in.
If no one plays your game does it matter how amazing it is?
Not if you want to make money or build a business. If you're trying to impress your friends then you can ignore me.
This 'build it and they will come' mentality has crushed a lot of dreams and wasted a great deal of time and money. This 'build it and they will come' mentality is naive. Most people don't have an audience. I guess you do.
If you read case studies about how the vast majority of the big apps made it, you'll find that they built networks. You make apps, get a few people to download them, then market your new apps to them. You keep doing this to compound your audience until it's large enough to launch a top 500 or 100 game. This is the #1 strategy used today.
Try this without push. It's much much harder. Much much harder.
Sure there are cases of people getting lucky but that's not the rule.
Even an amazing app will be overlooked by everyone, even review sites, if there is no audience.
Push is not an aside or a small issue. Not if people want to build a business or make money. Trying to brush it off is unfair in my opinion. it's not like you're saying that feature X is much more important because of x, y and z. You pretend that push is not significant because it bothers you.
It's significant. Period.
How significant, compared to other features, is certainly debatable however brushing it off because of personal animus is unfair to the people reading... especially if they want to succeed.
As far as the opinion shared by some that Push Notifications are annoying, as @kandj25 stated, that is almost irrelevant. If it's a proven method to get more downloads and help Pro members generate more revenue, I don't understand why GameSalad doesn't add it. I get that they have some engine issues to work out first. But let me be quite clear. if the priority is placed entirely on the GameSalad engine, I sure as hell better not see another advertising partner added before the engine is complete or Push Notifications have been added just because it may be better for the shareholders. And if one is added, you had better come to the table with a better argument for adding them besides it will "help" pro members generate more revenue. We've seen what has happened to advertising solutions when one doesn't preform.
- Alex
However, I don't understand the arguments people are making against GS implementing push notifications (regardless of how far down the roadmap it might end up). Push notifications are another important method of reaching your target audience. And simply put, developers should have EVERY tool at their deposal to increase their audience. If you want to be a purist and have completely ad free games, then fine, go be a purist. But please don't attempt to convince GS not to implement something strictly because you won't use it.
I think @kandj25 has made some very cogent and civil arguments. @SaladStraightShooter I think the basis of this argument is thus: users didn't ask for push notifications because they don't realize the potential of a well excited push campaign, thus it didn't seem to be a community need. @kandj25 is just trying to educate the community, so that they may understand the impacts of such a service. If an educated community still loathes the idea, then so be it. But its important that the community be told what the possible ramifications are, and I don't think its appropriate to try and shoot down such threads (talking generally here), particularly when they attempt to approach the issue civilly and logically.
Many of the counter arguments are valid as well, but even FMP said "I would argue that push notifications help you sell a lot of apps that are already fantastic." This not an argument to make crappy games with push, its an argument to increase an audience for great games. FMP is wise in saying that great games can be made with this tool, as Grisly Manor has proven. However, I've also noticed that both Grisly and Lost City, two excellent games, are no longer being built with GS.
FMP states "You cannot let a missing feature stop you. You need to be more resourceful. You need to work around it."
I just hope "work around it" doesn't have to mean moving to a new sdk. Gamesalad is evolving, and I applaud folks like @kandj25 for attempting to help with these types of threads.
---
Benjamin
And I actually like push notifications, I have them running on Words With Friends, Jewels with Buddies, Hanging with Friends, Scramble with Friends, etc. My phone is dinging constantly alerting me that it is my move!
It's just that we see so many of these posts, where people get discouraged because GameSalad doesn't have feature X implemented yet, and those developers just get frustrated and never finish anything.
There was a survey sent out a few days ago, asking Pro members to rank their favorite features. Many of the features on the list are things that people have been begging for for 3 years.
Actually, as is GameSalad's M.O., since Push Notifications were not on that list you can probably expect them in the next update ;-)
About the cliches and bromides, I meant them sincerely.
And yes, there are many ways to be successful on the App Stores. It does not only have to be freemium, with IAP, ads, or anything else. If I put any of that into my games they would absolutely sell less, not more.
But I agree that there are many ways to run a business, to make games, and they are all valid. And GameSalad should strive to support all of their developers, who can then in turn support the players of their games.
But GS should eventually have all device features enabled so that other users who have an use for it to be able to implement it in their app/game.
First, the push notification is good but for game in not necessary, why? because thinking if you receive a notification during your play? what is the reaction? istant go on setting, notification and turn off.
If we have a big game with IAP is good informing via PN you player with new object available to buy, but is not essential.
For me GameSalad need to improve a Facebook side, for exemple:
We create a game with many levels or worlds, and we want lock one for FB Like (Like on AppPage to Unlock a World) or i want to share my score on FB via App, that's important now to improve this, and improve also the HTML5 for FB, same App on FB but like a real FBApp and not only a iFrame for play.
So, for me push notification is not important, but i will ask to a dev team: please improve the Facebook side to help us to increment selling and visibility.
Guru Video Channel | Lost Oasis Games | FRYING BACON STUDIOS
Now on the AppStore there is over 10.000.000 Apps it is normal that we find it hard to sell our application.
To conclude, the solution is not PushNotification, is not Facebook or Twitter improve, is not the InAppPurchase or iAd, but is only our job and our power to advertise our Games!
I think this topic is only to says at dev team how to improve GameSalad Creator for make it more easy to share and develop our games here you don't find a solution to make money quick and easy.
Guru Video Channel | Lost Oasis Games | FRYING BACON STUDIOS
I actually have to say, I agree with that article as a consumer - But as a developer I believe push is perfectly brilliant when used properly, i.e for updates and helpful tips,