TechCrunch article on a scammer who uses Gamesalad templates and more
8BitAvrin
Member, PRO Posts: 368
I remember this guy from years ago, and I'm sure some of you do as well.....
http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/19/how-one-scammer-manipulated-apples-top-charts-to-earn-tens-of-thousands-daily-using-a-10-gamesalad-template/
http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/19/how-one-scammer-manipulated-apples-top-charts-to-earn-tens-of-thousands-daily-using-a-10-gamesalad-template/
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One thing I'm doing to help combat the perception that GameSalad is just about $10 templates and trying to game the App Store is to tweet out videos of awesome GS games using the hashtags #ThisIsGameSalad and #GameSalad.
Feel free to join me and help educate our fellow netizens about what the GS community is really about!
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
It's that simple.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
I don't actually have twitter and my game "Steam Jack" is not available yet but you can twit it out if you like there are videos in thread. it's a work in progress but basically done just spending time looking for bugs while waiting on some Tizen incentives,lol.
http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/61180/my-game-steam-jack-wip
Win. Win. Win.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
I see the TechCrunch article linked to several of my posts.
New to GameSalad? (FAQs) | Tutorials | Templates | Greenleaf Games | Educator & Certified GameSalad User
Ban not just his account, but his IP too. Investigate @talo too, there is some very compelling evidence he's one of Mateen's many pseudonyms.
Chakku
We have over 700,000 user accounts. Even if we could block him, it would be trivial for him to create new accounts and publish with them. Sure, I could pull all our development and CS resources and put them on fighting one guy, but wouldn't you rather we focused on getting 0.11 done and addressing open CS tickets?
I get that this guy is unscrupulous and several folks that have tried to do business with him say he ripped them off. That's awful, and we obviously don't want people like that in our community. But those are criminal complaints, and really nothing we can or should intervene in.
Consider the scenario where Forum User A offers to sell concert tickets to Forum User B and then rips off the user. Should we investigate and ban User A? That's a slippery slope and truthfully we don't have the resources to enforce even if we wanted to.
As far as the manner in which he manipulated the charts, this is another area where I understand everyone's frustrations. Anyone who's shipped a game they poured their heart and soul into, and watched it get smoked by a cheap "cash grab" understands that.
But the thing is, again, this has nothing to do with GameSalad.
If he had gamed the charts using an actual decent game, would people have ever even realized? I would suggest that lots of big publishers already do this and have for years, but nobody noticed because their games are polished and look "big".
Are we proud of this game? Of course not. But there are a lot of different issues being mixed up here and none of them fundamentally have anything to do with GS or are abuses we should be involved in.
Theft or fraud needs to be reported to financial institutions and law enforcement. "Gaming the charts" is something Apple will be looking into, I can assure you.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
How much did that user database increase from say a month ago, if you can say.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
I'm about to spew a lot of bile at you, so for the record let me start by saying I am on your side, have been here from the start, and take great pride in the games I make with your software. And thank you for responding.
Right, here's the bile:
" Sure, I could pull all our development and CS resources and put them on fighting one guy, but wouldn't you rather we focused on getting 0.11 done and addressing open CS tickets?"
Really? It takes EVERYONE at GS to press a 'ban' button when we call this guy to your attention?
Getting .11 done will mean nothing to anyone if your software is tarnished as being the go-to place for scammers.
"I get that this guy is unscrupulous and several folks that have tried to do business with him say he ripped them off. That's awful, and we obviously don't want people like that in our community. But those are criminal complaints, and really nothing we can or should intervene in. "
Translation: Welcome, criminals! We won't raise a finger to stop you. Step on in, templates to the right, IAP and ads to the left, publishing straight ahead.
You have a EULA in which you state:
In using the Services, you will not commit any act, or refrain from taking any action, and you will not agree to any legal or other contractual terms, that reduce or otherwise negatively affect in any way, GameSalad’s and its licensors’ right, title and ownership of the intellectual property and other proprietary rights applicable to, or embodied in, the Site, Services, Software (including, without limitation, the GameSalad Engine and GameSalad Embeddable Player), and Content.
I'm no lawyer, but this guy is negatively affecting not just GameSalad, but every single person using it.
"Consider the scenario where Forum User A offers to sell concert tickets to Forum User B and then rips off the user. Should we investigate and ban User A? That's a slippery slope and truthfully we don't have the resources to enforce even if we wanted to."
Forum User A is not using your software to scam Forum User B or several thousand people/the appstore/apple.
"But the thing is, again, this has nothing to do with GameSalad. "
Except he used your publishing service and your software to do what he did. If he'd used Unity, you'd have a point. He didn't.
Please, I implore you, *DO* something about this.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Thanks for the reply, and no worries on the bile. I get it; you're passionate about this, and that's what we want from our dev community. But you yourself have pointed out that you know this guy isn't violating our TOS.
IMO, the EULA passage you posted is all about denial of service and has no applicability in this case. I truly do not understand how his games have anything to do with yours or how he harms your ability to make your games, publish and market them. If he was surreptitiously hacking the server and stealing assets from other users that would be another matter entirely.
Is his game drawing an undesirable association between GS and "$10 templates"? Sure! And that's why I'd love to spend what little surplus energy I have focusing on the awesome stuff you and others have done as opposed to trying to find a justifiable way to ban one of the many aliases this guy uses until he makes another.
I'm also unclear about how he "scammed" people into giving him money on the App Store. Seriously -- I get the fact that he gamed the rankings, but scamming users out of money would be putting up screenshots and a description that did not correlate to what was actually in the game (and remember, Apple approved the game, which means it passed all of Apple's requirements).
What you are really saying is it's unfair that he got people to think his game was incredibly popular for some reason, when it wasn't. Explain to me how this is a crime?
It's not. It's just poor judgment. All around.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
1)Used a template, check.. Granted he didn't show much artistic creativity (used art from template). However, he created new levels using the template.
2) Had a couple weeks (or less) of great sales. Now, here is the grey area. How did he acquire those sales? Was he using tactics that other top apps use? Or some that are shadier (i.e using networks of itunes accounts)??? I don't think anyone but apple knows at this point. By the way the author doesn't get into this, most of the top apps in the appstore or google play store have huge budgets (tens to hundreds of thousands, even millions in the cases of candy crush) for user acquisition. Also, there used to be incentivized download walls. I think android apps still have them (apple doesn't allow them). Some developers make their paid apps free and then when they get more popular jack the price up. Others spend tons of money advertising in ad networks like chartboost and revmob. No matter how you look at the industry it is a stacked deck of cards giving a huge advantage to those with money to acquire downloads. I just hope we aren't drowning the success of a fellow small fish that got a little lucky when the big whales are swimming freely.
SocializeTwitter , **My Site ** **Play Loop Zen Free **iOS HERE, Google Play HERE
All I really question is, you guys don't have a search method to find a user in your database? You have a few of the names he uses. You couldn't just search for those ones, ban those accounts, ban his IP, and use his IP to track his other accounts and ban them as well?
I've run a forum before, although small, but it had very simple methods of banning users and their IPs. I highly doubt it would require more than 15 minutes of one person and not the entire GS team to do this. Don't you guys have people that aren't working on 0.11 and that just monitor forums similar to SSS? That seems like a simple task for someone in that position.
"But the thing is, again, this has nothing to do with GameSalad. "
If it didn't, why would you be doing damage control on twitter with the #GameSalad and #ThisIsGamesalad hashtags? If Apptopia took steps to deal with him to save face, wouldn't it be in your best interest as well?
We pull templates that are broken/empty/IP violations, follow DMCA requests and absolutely ban forum users who are violating the rules of discourse we've established. Anyone we catch trying to hack our servers or deny paying customers services they've paid for, of course we would ban them.
So no, I don't agree with your translation.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
You want to change the perception of GS - you want to stop this from happening again and again and again?
*Change* your TOS. Include a clause that stops people doing this. It's something you couldn't have foreseen when writing them, so adapt and change them and ban his ass.
Otherwise it WILL happen again.
His original description boasted '100 levels' - there were only 30. Scam.
Trying to sell an app on Apptopia for 500k (the original sum) insinuating that it could legitimately get into the top 10 and earn the purchaser thousands - scam.
"What you are really saying is it's unfair that he got people to think his game was incredibly popular for some reason, when it wasn't. Explain to me how this is a crime?
It's not. It's just poor judgment. All around."
No, what I'm REALLY saying is that this guy GAMED the system and profited from it. He is financially rewarded for cheating the system.
Now, the system is not your concern. But the tool to game the system is your software. The most heinous act of poor judgement here would be to do nothing about this.
Because then you are inviting other unscrupulous characters to come in and use your software in the same way. Who's going to stop them? Certainly not GS itself.
The world is looking in and it is seeing a company not willing to make a stand.
Apple and google made a stand against flappy bird clones. Apptopia saw what was happening and made a stand against this individual.
Your community is speaking to you. The majority, I would hope, do not want to be associated with this kind of thing. We do not want this guy around casting a shadow over everything we achieve.
But I can see I'm not going to convince you. Well done. You get to keep a scammer, and once I've finished my game, I will be seriously considering whether I want to make any more games with GS.
Because this guy is laughing at all of us, all the way to the bank.
Melodramatic, sure. But also, right now, it's the truth. Because I'm angry you won't do anything. And I never get angry.
Look, I'm sorry. I'm looking forward to what the GS team come up with. I know you're low on resources, and you're doing a great job. GS is awesome software, it really is, and will only get better.
But you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, right?
QS =(
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Saying I'm doing damage control implies that we have some culpability for what he's done, which is not the case, nor does the article imply. As I posted above, it's more an issue of brand association. I would prefer our brand be associated more with quality games than games like Mateen's, but the reality is that we are getting a tremendous amount of traffic as a result of this story, and we want people who have never heard of GameSalad to see all the great stuff our users have built.
This is like someone using a hammer to trash an expensive painting and expecting the manufacturer of the hammer to take swift action before it negatively impacts all the carpenters around the world who use the same brand of hammer.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
As far as I can tell @quantumsheep and myself are just suggesting you take steps to stop this current perpetrator and make an example of him so you don't end up with a plethora of other abusers. If you don't want GS associated with these kinds of actions, the lack of action provides him and future scammers a revolving door and it will end with GS being entirely associated to these kinds of action.
You aren't sure what he has done? I suggest you simply Google Mateen's name. There are a slew of forums talking about him and his scams. Some of the ones I read said that he was taking GS templates and reselling them to people. There are plenty of scam complaints from people centered around him.
You guys do as you wish, but really this guy is harming the image of your software and all games produced with it. I don't know about you, but I certainly wouldn't allow someone like him to tarnish the name of my software. To each his own.
What if someone accused you of "gaming the system" and you couldn't prove that you didn't? Would you consent to showing us all your financial records? Would that be enough?
And if true, Apple should have pulled it immediately (or never approved it in the first place). Not our domain, but it's a fair point. Also not sure how we police this, but moving on. No, it's a bad deal. And nobody bit on it because they knew it was a bad deal. But again, even if someone had, this has ZERO to do with GameSalad! We can't police transactions that take place on Apptopia! You're correct! He absolutely did, and I said as much from the first post. But you're asking me to inflict punitive damages on someone because he did something you feel it's unfair. And that's just not a precedent that we should set. I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree. We don't encourage or support this kind of action, obviously. We don't care for it. There is nothing we love more than devs making awesome games with our tools and being able to support their families doing so. But the role you're asking us to play is actually what Apple and Google Play get paid for. Curating, screening, evaluating content? That's not our role. You're projecting your own moral judgments on the activities of our users. I'm not comfortable with that and cannot use that as a criteria for interfering with the products our users create.
As a thought exercise, imagine that one of our users created a game encouraging an Islamic Revolution, and it inexplicably becomes a viral hit in America. Many people suspected it had "gamed the charts" in some way. Many of our users find the content objectionable and demand we ban the user who created it.
Do we take action and ban the user? You may find this example absurd, but I assure you it's not. On the contrary! I'm taking a stand right now, because I understand that you are all genuinely upset by this and I am explaining why summarily banning this user is not good policy. If I wasn't taking a stand, I'd ignore this entirely. I assure you I don't enjoy telling you guys this, but I do feel it's the right stance to take. First of all, Flappy Bird has nothing whatsoever to do with Mateen and his apps, but:
- Apple and Google are rejecting new apps that use the word Flappy in an attempt to game their search algorithms.
- You will note that they have had no problem with games that are essentially Flappy Bird, mechanic-wise, but are sufficiently different
- Finally, both Apple and Google APPROVED Red Bouncing Ball, so I am unclear what your point is here.
- I don't know much about Apptopia but a cursory examination of their site indicates that they broker deals between buyers and sellers of templates and game IP. It make 100% sense that if someone was conducting fraudulent business on their site, they would take action, because they make money from that! They are liable.
Now, if Mateen has fraudulently used the GameSalad marketplace to cheat buyers out of their money in the past, he should have been banned. And if someone has evidence of this, I'd like to hear from them. But one doesn't have anything to do with the other. Nor do we, which is why we are more interested in promoting the positives. I'm sorry you feel that way and it would certainly be a loss to the community, but it's a decision you will have to make based on the principles you value.
One of the most important to me is that we protect our users' rights to create whatever they want so long as they don't violate the law or our TOS, deny fellow customers the ability to use the service they've paid for, etc.
This doesn't make you feel any better, and I'm sorry for that, but it's the right thing to do for the entire user community. Again, I understand your frustration. You're angry. He doesn't deserve to have made that much money. And I totally agree with you. But fairness doesn't really enter into the discussion. If he violated TOS or broke the law, he'll be dealt with appropriately. But that's how it's got to be handled. I appreciate that, and yes, I do! I am choosing to protect the rights of all our users to develop and run their businesses as they see fit so long as they do not violate our rules or deny you the ability to run yours.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
I know you guys see this issue as black and white, but the implications of doing what you ask are far-ranging, would involve lawyers and legal fees and massive distraction from what we are trying to do to help you make better games.
I've already spent several hours discussing this that I needed to focus on other things but I wanted you to understand where I'm coming from, that I'm not ignoring this issue, and why I feel we can't take the action you are requesting.
Again, I'll say it clearly: if anyone was defrauded by this person as a result of a GameSalad marketplace transaction, or has evidence of him tampering with the GameSalad service, please let me know and we will investigate.
Dan
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
Isn't the fact that he's scammed many many people here (and those people have proof) enough to ban his IP? Wouldn't banning his IP prevent him from making more accounts? Sure, he could go to his friend's house, but we'd catch on and ban that IP too. But how many friends could he possibly have...
Chakku
I'm not saying you have to permanently ban him. I'm not saying you have to do anything. We are just SUGGESTING you investigate the matter. That forum is one of many where his scams have some light shed on them. I'm not saying it is enough to "convict" him, but it surely should be enough to temporarily ban his account while it is investigated is it not?
You do realize your TOS states you grant us a license to use the software. A license you can revoke at your discretion.
As for an addition to the TOS, ask a lawyer, but I would assume something along the lines of you retaining the right, to limit and or ban users while they are investigated for using Gamesalad in scams or other illegal activity. If it isn't in there already. That forum above, people are pointing out his scams using Gamesalad software. It would make plenty of sense that he be banned atleast temporarily for using Gamesalad for illegal means.
What I would question, is why so many people come out of the wood-works to claim this guy is scamming if he wasn't in fact scamming. None of what I am talking about pertains to anything involving his likely gaming of the App store. That is beside the point. He is frequently using your software to con people. Plain and simple.
+1
Chakku
https://developer.apple.com/appstore/resources/approval/guidelines.html
"If you attempt to cheat the system (for example, by trying to trick the review process, steal data from users, copy another developer's work, or manipulate the ratings) your Apps will be removed from the store and you will be expelled from the developer program."
As @fallacystudios suggests, suspicion of this would be enough. For example, coming on here, boasting and telling everyone to 'watch the top of the charts'.
Honestly, this is common sense stuff. I'm deeply, deeply disappointed in your reaction to this.
And with that, I'm done.
Edit: Also - ty for taking the time to respond. While I fundamentally disagree with a lot of what you're saying/suggesting and your arguments for that, I do appreciate you actually responding.
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
I originally thought GameSalad would get a bad rep for this, but after consideration of the situation, imagining looking in to the company for the first time because of hearing about his scam on news sites, to me would signify that it is unusual and would have happened regardless of GameSalad's existence.
Him gaming the top charts has nothing to do with GameSalad, its quality, or the way it streamlines making games. The template is for sale to teach or to build off of with your own assets and tweaks to gameplay. He could have bought an app elsewhere.
I also don't see how GameSalad should at all be involved in anything except for his forum scamming when he tried to sell other people's templates. To me that would constitute a GS IP ban. But then again, IP banning is really just a gesture towards your image and integrity as a company. There are easy ways of changing your IP to get around it and wouldn't really do anything.
People just need to concentrate on building games and stop worrying about your image being affected by someone who has nothing to do with you and your products. Because it's apparent to everyone that you had nothing to do with it. As for justice the ball is clearly in Apple's court.
My two cents about sales boosting: As previously mentioned by @dgackey , big developers probably/possibly already use the same method for gaming the app store rankings. Apple may be walking on egg shells here to due to the fact that they've possibly allowed it for so long and for certain people/companies. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to see all those who game the charts to come crashing down, but if this is an 'insider' secret if you will, then they may just fade it out into the background.
If it is going on on a wider scale than we know, and if they really did decide to do anything about it, they would probably cease everyone's sales boosting at once behind the scenes without removing apps or really saying anything to the public. If this were the case, the top charts could look different very soon for a lot of apps.
But don't expect them to acknowledge anything. That would most likely just end in bad rep for Apple.
Im sure you recognize the name right?
Same top chart today (free games)