@stormy: My spidey senses tell me that we are not really in compliance but may sneak by if we don't inundate the app store with crap.
I'd love for the Gendai powers-that-be to truly say that the behaviors used in our GS ".gameproj" files don't create Lua scripts (or whatever) that are then interpreted by GS engine's Lua interpretor during runtime of the app. I get the feeling that is how it is done though. I just don't know why our packaged app (for the app store) would contain a copy of the entire ".gameproj" file if it wasn't doing something like I stated earlier.
If not Lua then maybe some custom engine, custom engine with Lua, or whatever...
More information would be useful. In comparison, I'm getting very impressed with the professionalism of the Ansca people, even if Corona isn't quite ready for games yet. I know GS folks work hard, but so do GS developers.
It's true that some tools are going to have a hard time getting through with Apple's new SDK Agreement. Fortunately for you all, as GS developers, there isn't anything for you to worry about.
Like we said before, we've been in communication with Apple. Yes, they know who we are, so don't worry about us "showing up on their radar" or things like that. At no time have we been given any reason to believe that GameSalad users will have issues continuing to publish their games and apps to Apple mobile platforms.
I know some of you are clamoring for more detail in regards to compile languages, etc. I'm sorry, but that is something that we don't give out. Please understand that this is not due to any possible violation of the Apple SDK Agreement, it's just a corporate policy to protect GameSalad's source code. We simply don't see the new agreement as a big enough concern to warrant changing that policy at the present time.
Hope this clears up some issues and helps you feel a little more secure. Thanks for your understanding and thanks for just being the best all-around community of indie developers out there.
After the antitrust inquiry rumors, probably Apple has to be isonomic, by accepting (including Adobe) or blocking all third-party toolkits and middleware solutions.
It seems to me that their choice is the first one.
BTW, I won't stop my work using GameSalad. I have one game submitted to the app store ("in review" status) and just finishing my second, to submit on Friday.
But we all have to admit: It's time Gendai had a huge commercial and technical response.
As a RunRev developer and a GameSalad developer, I see this as a major issue for GameSalad. According to Apple's upcoming developer requirements, apps must be built natively in Xcode/ Objective-C or they will violate the terms of Apple's SDK. None of us here is building apps in Xcode/Objective-C. After today's RunRev announcement, it's a major concern for me that the GS game I've been working on for the last few months will eventually be rejected because it has not been built natively. Just because Gendai "hasn't been given any reason to believe there will be issues", doesn't mean the platform is safe. As GS game developers, you should all be very concerned about this.
The date when the change to the developer agreement was made is irrelevant. The issue is if/when Steve/Apple will decide whether GS apps are valid or not. Developers using RunRev were "looking good" until 3.3.1, and up until this morning were eagerly waiting to learn the official word. Now that Apple has nixed RunRev's iPhone program, the company has been forced to cancel their iPhone/iPad development plans, postpone their mobile developers conference scheduled for later this year, and needs to contend with folks who bought into the development program early.
@ Prodigio - there are any number of ways Apple can determine how the app was built. Again, this is irrelevant. The fact is, none of the games built with GS is valid, according to Apple's absurd requirements. Thus they can pull anything they want, according to their own terms.
Gendai would do well to get some official clarification rather than adopting a "no news is good news" policy when so many folks here counting on GS to be a valid platform moving forward.
Ok, so I am probably the oldest person in the forum, maybe not but with my gray hair and 60 years of life attached to it, and some 40 in software and hardware development, frankly I am anxious. Apple does not give answers, they give edicts. They make a nice family of products but they have become a bit insane. There are lots of other platforms coming out they frankly dont care a rip what you use to make a product. Many of the GS games made have been on the top of the list. So, for Apple its about money, RUN REV, UNITY and others make systems that spawn to all kinds of hardware, and GS does not, it is an Apple product, so far.
But I think that the folks at GS need to get a bit more real about things. I dont want to hear nice words of comfort or saying from Douglas Adams, its not about Panic its about knowing, and knowing for real. The truth is always better than an assumption, or a wish, or a hope, if its a no go, ok pissed off I am, but I can move on with some level of purpose and with knowledge before hand. I dont know about you folks but surprises in this biz suck big time.
I can go learn Xcode, but GS is easier, its not as robust but we need answers. Forums are great, and lots of people here have helped me, Joe from Firemaple, Weswog and his constant stream of videos, they have helped.
But GS does not have a phone to contact them, support lags by days and sometimes there is never a response, not even an automated response.
I am working with clients and have games on the books, I want to know the truth and a real answer.
Of course there is no one at Apple to talk to they are far worse than GS folks. Apple lives on another time plane or parallel universe where I guess developers are not that important.
Without the 100000 developers, Apple has limited ability to sell anything, their numbers go down and wall street shows up and kicks Steve in the ass. This is real, for them its about money, not the computer for the rest of us, or any of that good warm fuzzy stuff, that was over a long time ago.
They dont like Adobe, and it seems they are taking aim at other folks who make products that enhance their own system with sales and support.
Bottom line, this is serious, and we need direct serious answers to what is going on.
I would be glad to help GS in any way I could, but it is time for these folks at GS to get real with us and let us know the bottom line. I dont care about the money spent or even the time so far spent, what I do care about is what is going to happen.
Sorry for the babble but like some of you, my radar for bad stuff is starting to blip and it makes me nervous.
Yodapollo said: Like we said before, we've been in communication with Apple. Yes, they know who we are, so don't worry about us "showing up on their radar" or things like that. At no time have we been given any reason to believe that GameSalad users will have issues continuing to publish their games and apps to Apple mobile platforms.
I am worried by the fact that Apple has not given any reason to believe they WILL allow GameSalad apps... I don't find any comfort in the fact that they have simply not said no.
Right, its digital, yes or no. Maybe is the worst thing in the world, love me, hate me, both good, but ignore me, drives me crazy. But Apple does not talk unless of course your name is EA or Wall street. Money talks. I don't want anyone at GS or any forum member to think that I am down on GS, but having a yes or a no from Apple allows us to deal with the problem. OK so much for this, guess it is what it is and we will all find out sooner or later. But later is a lot like maybe.....
Apple wants to ensure the quality of the applications that run on their hardware. This is what they have said that they want, and it makes sense.
They put a clause in the developer agreement to help ensure this, by giving them the right to exclude software that is non-compliant. Adobe Flash is a poorly implemented development tool, at least as far as Apple is concerned. It is largely supported and targeted at the PC developer crowd, and since it is buggy and does not play well with Apple hardware, it is out.
Adobe makes trouble for Apple with the Feds over restraint of trade. Apple has a right to protect its customers. Apple is also quite smart enough to know that if *some* 3rd party tools (GameSalad) are accepted, there is no case on general restraint of trade. GameSalad works only with Apple, and seems to work well with Apple. Apple benefits from not being singled out as restraining *all* 3rd party software toolkits.
RunRev was pretty marginal in the performance area according to all reviews. It is therefore not surprising that it, like Adobe Flash are banned, yet GameSalad is not.
My expectation is that as long as GameSalad concentrates on being the best tool for Apple it can be, it will continue to be an acceptable tool in Apple's mind.
Fix GameSalad to be as perfect as possible, build professional level apps not shovel-ware, and add new features to GameSalad that evidence a commitment to the long term relationship with Apple. Add functions to support Apple features like iAd, GameCenter, wifi connectivity, social networking, in app purchases and other "Apple" things. Do not ever waste time making a version of GameSalad that works for PC, Android, or other hardware.
People are exceptional computers do our bidding companies that make computers rely on us to consume and develop. Personally I could care less what computer I use so long as it makes the task at hand easier and better. Game salad fits that bill 100% but to exclude 70 percent of the market might be a very short sighted deal for their growth.
If I did not have a green light from apple new features u want would never happen. I truly hope that a green light to GS is forth coming.
Yes, but that is me and you, Mike. It's Apple that we have to work with. And I really think that if GameSalad remains true to Apple, and does not dilute the source by working for a common denominator (like Flash did) we have the best chance of surviving as a partner.
That's why I suggest that not focussing on core ability to serve the iPhone/iPod/iPad would be a waste of time and put GameSalad in danger of joining the rejected crowd.
"Apple wants to ensure the quality of the applications that run on their hardware. This is what they have said that they want, and it makes sense." This argument has been repeated a hundred times around the net and it does not make sense. Limiting tools developers can use on the platform does nothing to prevent dozens of iFart applications being produced, nor does it guarantee high performance applications, nor does it prevent applications with bugs.
In any event, the issue at hand is not deciding whether or not Apple is right, or where GS should apply its resources, but rather getting some definitive word on whether or not the GS platform is valid in Apple's eyes. I hope it is -- a bunch of people are counting on it (just like they were in RunRev's case). Gendai owes it to their customers to get a definitive answer.
He stomped around again in his tiny circle, around his thin steel peg-leg which revolved in the mud but seemed otherwise stuck. 'But why do you just keep walking round and round?' said the mattress. 'Just to make the point,' said Marvin, and continued, round and round. 'Consider it made, my dear friend,' flurbled the mattress, ' consider it made'
I hate to see this topic back. Posts are mostly justified, but painful to read. Don't get me wrong, they're painful because people are genuinely worried, and we're all impotent to help our friends.
But as we go round and round waiting for the answer to the most important question of Life the Universe and Everything. I think the 'Don't Panic!' suggestion is true. lean in, and i'll tell you for why...
Apple Hates all 3rd party dev tools (GS too) Maybe. But their actions are not consistent with this. To go from Adobe to RunRev would seem to suggest they simply want to weed out the 'bad' ones. Otherwise they'd logically target other much larger dev tools first like GS, Unity, etc, or indeed all of them at once.
No news is good news. No no really People (including myself in the past) are demanding a definitive answer. But in the wake of the political poo storm, you have to ask yourself what would happen if Apple and GS DID say to the world "Hey you guys! GameSalad is the way to do it!". Adobe will turn it's head with an evil grin "Oh really? Please welcome our new product! Adobe GameCocktail!". Apple will ultimately be forced to then ban ALL 3rd party dev tools. So it maybe hard to believe, but the non-answer for the moment is actually protecting us.
Well if Adobe and RunRev got it wrong, none of us are safe! Again true. But we're assuming that Apple really does want to wipe us all out. But why wait 3 days before CS5 was launched to begin the cull? It would have been far easier for them to eliminate 3rd party tools one by one as soon as they appeared.Years ago.
But Apple are so unpredictable, they're a law unto themselves, we'll never be safe True, and you should also reconsider driving, flying, eating, crossing the road, and sex. All of these carry a potential far worse than having to get an xcode manual out.
But we paid Gendai $99 (some of us more) to develop the way they promised There was simply no such promise ever made. For anyone to make the promise 'Our software will always work, no matter what' would be a truly unique thing. I think if Gendai had worked out a way to achieve this, they'd currently be buying up Apple and Adobe.
Yeah, but... I know, i know. But continue with your games, continue forming great friends in this fantastic community. These experiences will always stand you in good stead, what ever happens in the future.
They gazed at God's Final Message in wonderment, and were slowly and ineffably filled with a great sense of peace, and of final complete understanding.
Sorry if its been said already, but I actually received an email (having signed up for updates) from RunRev yesterday and told me that there was nothing to worry about (we'll seem maybe, maybe not) but they were still going to continue developing the product and fully supporting it. So to have that commitment they know something and must be reasonably safe from the new agreement, I would have imagined.
firemaplegames
Member Posts: 3,211
Comments
I just don't like seeing people get blocked from using their favorite dev environments.
OR - I work like a MF to get 10 games done in two weeks while holding down the remains of my job ! :O
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
fingers serverly crossed GS is safe...
Feel pretty safe that Gendai have always answered topics like this with a wave of the hand...
I guess GS is complied in one of the correct languages so all is fine
I'd love for the Gendai powers-that-be to truly say that the behaviors used in our GS ".gameproj" files don't create Lua scripts (or whatever) that are then interpreted by GS engine's Lua interpretor during runtime of the app. I get the feeling that is how it is done though. I just don't know why our packaged app (for the app store) would contain a copy of the entire ".gameproj" file if it wasn't doing something like I stated earlier.
If not Lua then maybe some custom engine, custom engine with Lua, or whatever...
Apple is basically saying that people can only use XCode to make .apps for the iPhone OS.
Hopefully it all still works out, as I am having fun using GameSalad!
In the words of Douglas Adams, "Don't Panic!"
It's true that some tools are going to have a hard time getting through with Apple's new SDK Agreement. Fortunately for you all, as GS developers, there isn't anything for you to worry about.
Like we said before, we've been in communication with Apple. Yes, they know who we are, so don't worry about us "showing up on their radar" or things like that. At no time have we been given any reason to believe that GameSalad users will have issues continuing to publish their games and apps to Apple mobile platforms.
I know some of you are clamoring for more detail in regards to compile languages, etc. I'm sorry, but that is something that we don't give out. Please understand that this is not due to any possible violation of the Apple SDK Agreement, it's just a corporate policy to protect GameSalad's source code. We simply don't see the new agreement as a big enough concern to warrant changing that policy at the present time.
Hope this clears up some issues and helps you feel a little more secure. Thanks for your understanding and thanks for just being the best all-around community of indie developers out there.
--Yodapollo
Thanks GS for truly something amazing
It seems to me that their choice is the first one.
BTW, I won't stop my work using GameSalad. I have one game submitted to the app store ("in review" status) and just finishing my second, to submit on Friday.
But we all have to admit: It's time Gendai had a huge commercial and technical response.
(Sorry for my poor english!)
Damn you Yoda! Damn you to HELL!!!
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
@ Prodigio - there are any number of ways Apple can determine how the app was built. Again, this is irrelevant. The fact is, none of the games built with GS is valid, according to Apple's absurd requirements. Thus they can pull anything they want, according to their own terms.
Gendai would do well to get some official clarification rather than adopting a "no news is good news" policy when so many folks here counting on GS to be a valid platform moving forward.
But I think that the folks at GS need to get a bit more real about things. I dont want to hear nice words of comfort or saying from Douglas Adams, its not about Panic its about knowing, and knowing for real. The truth is always better than an assumption, or a wish, or a hope, if its a no go, ok pissed off I am, but I can move on with some level of purpose and with knowledge before hand. I dont know about you folks but surprises in this biz suck big time.
I can go learn Xcode, but GS is easier, its not as robust but we need answers. Forums are great, and lots of people here have helped me, Joe from Firemaple, Weswog and his constant stream of videos, they have helped.
But GS does not have a phone to contact them, support lags by days and sometimes there is never a response, not even an automated response.
I am working with clients and have games on the books, I want to know the truth and a real answer.
Of course there is no one at Apple to talk to they are far worse than GS folks. Apple lives on another time plane or parallel universe where I guess developers are not that important.
Without the 100000 developers, Apple has limited ability to sell anything, their numbers go down and wall street shows up and kicks Steve in the ass. This is real, for them its about money, not the computer for the rest of us, or any of that good warm fuzzy stuff, that was over a long time ago.
They dont like Adobe, and it seems they are taking aim at other folks who make products that enhance their own system with sales and support.
Bottom line, this is serious, and we need direct serious answers to what is going on.
I would be glad to help GS in any way I could, but it is time for these folks at GS to get real with us and let us know the bottom line. I dont care about the money spent or even the time so far spent, what I do care about is what is going to happen.
Sorry for the babble but like some of you, my radar for bad stuff is starting to blip and it makes me nervous.
Hoping for a good outcome.
OK so much for this, guess it is what it is and we will all find out sooner or later. But later is a lot like maybe.....
Apple wants to ensure the quality of the applications that run on their hardware. This is what they have said that they want, and it makes sense.
They put a clause in the developer agreement to help ensure this, by giving them the right to exclude software that is non-compliant. Adobe Flash is a poorly implemented development tool, at least as far as Apple is concerned. It is largely supported and targeted at the PC developer crowd, and since it is buggy and does not play well with Apple hardware, it is out.
Adobe makes trouble for Apple with the Feds over restraint of trade. Apple has a right to protect its customers. Apple is also quite smart enough to know that if *some* 3rd party tools (GameSalad) are accepted, there is no case on general restraint of trade. GameSalad works only with Apple, and seems to work well with Apple. Apple benefits from not being singled out as restraining *all* 3rd party software toolkits.
RunRev was pretty marginal in the performance area according to all reviews. It is therefore not surprising that it, like Adobe Flash are banned, yet GameSalad is not.
My expectation is that as long as GameSalad concentrates on being the best tool for Apple it can be, it will continue to be an acceptable tool in Apple's mind.
Fix GameSalad to be as perfect as possible, build professional level apps not shovel-ware, and add new features to GameSalad that evidence a commitment to the long term relationship with Apple. Add functions to support Apple features like iAd, GameCenter, wifi connectivity, social networking, in app purchases and other "Apple" things. Do not ever waste time making a version of GameSalad that works for PC, Android, or other hardware.
Hmmmm!
People are exceptional computers do our bidding companies that make computers rely on us to consume and develop. Personally I could care less what computer I use so long as it makes the task at hand easier and better. Game salad fits that bill 100% but to exclude 70 percent of the market might be a very short sighted deal for their growth.
If I did not have a green light from apple new features u want would never happen. I truly hope that a green light to GS is forth coming.
That's why I suggest that not focussing on core ability to serve the iPhone/iPod/iPad would be a waste of time and put GameSalad in danger of joining the rejected crowd.
In any event, the issue at hand is not deciding whether or not Apple is right, or where GS should apply its resources, but rather getting some definitive word on whether or not the GS platform is valid in Apple's eyes. I hope it is -- a bunch of people are counting on it (just like they were in RunRev's case). Gendai owes it to their customers to get a definitive answer.
'But why do you just keep walking round and round?' said the mattress.
'Just to make the point,' said Marvin, and continued, round and round.
'Consider it made, my dear friend,' flurbled the mattress, ' consider it made'
I hate to see this topic back. Posts are mostly justified, but painful to read. Don't get me wrong, they're painful because people are genuinely worried, and we're all impotent to help our friends.
But as we go round and round waiting for the answer to the most important question of Life the Universe and Everything. I think the 'Don't Panic!' suggestion is true. lean in, and i'll tell you for why...
Apple Hates all 3rd party dev tools (GS too)
Maybe. But their actions are not consistent with this. To go from Adobe to RunRev would seem to suggest they simply want to weed out the 'bad' ones. Otherwise they'd logically target other much larger dev tools first like GS, Unity, etc, or indeed all of them at once.
No news is good news. No no really
People (including myself in the past) are demanding a definitive answer. But in the wake of the political poo storm, you have to ask yourself what would happen if Apple and GS DID say to the world "Hey you guys! GameSalad is the way to do it!". Adobe will turn it's head with an evil grin "Oh really? Please welcome our new product! Adobe GameCocktail!". Apple will ultimately be forced to then ban ALL 3rd party dev tools. So it maybe hard to believe, but the non-answer for the moment is actually protecting us.
Well if Adobe and RunRev got it wrong, none of us are safe!
Again true. But we're assuming that Apple really does want to wipe us all out. But why wait 3 days before CS5 was launched to begin the cull? It would have been far easier for them to eliminate 3rd party tools one by one as soon as they appeared.Years ago.
But Apple are so unpredictable, they're a law unto themselves, we'll never be safe
True, and you should also reconsider driving, flying, eating, crossing the road, and sex. All of these carry a potential far worse than having to get an xcode manual out.
But we paid Gendai $99 (some of us more) to develop the way they promised
There was simply no such promise ever made. For anyone to make the promise 'Our software will always work, no matter what' would be a truly unique thing. I think if Gendai had worked out a way to achieve this, they'd currently be buying up Apple and Adobe.
Yeah, but...
I know, i know. But continue with your games, continue forming great friends in this fantastic community. These experiences will always stand you in good stead, what ever happens in the future.
They gazed at God's Final Message in wonderment, and were slowly and ineffably filled with a great sense of peace, and of final complete understanding.
WE APOLOGISE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE
Now can I have them back please???
Sorry if its been said already, but I actually received an email (having signed up for updates) from RunRev yesterday and told me that there was nothing to worry about (we'll seem maybe, maybe not) but they were still going to continue developing the product and fully supporting it. So to have that commitment they know something and must be reasonably safe from the new agreement, I would have imagined.