There is an issue in the UB 7 series projects. In the Scene/Layers tab the Setup actor is at the top of the Background layer it needs to be moved to the bottom for reliable performance. I will be releasing an update soon. Poor @gyroscope I am over working him with these updates.
@colander said:
Refresh my memory which two are they?
"Panning around a map and seeing into all the corners on every device is a very good example of what Stretch can do and Overscan cannot. As well as making a UB where things retain their dimensions in pixels. Feel free to prove me wrong in any of those (ideally with a demo), but I have yet to see overscan be able to do those things."
Especially the bolded second one is of importance, as that was the primary reason I made my method.
@colander said:
You are misreading my point and diverting the argument. This example was to specifically point out to you that Overscan and Stretch produce the same size buttons when you account for the stretch.
Well, if in Overscan these buttons overlap in the case of keeping their original size, then that simply means that the method is not working well, isn't that so? That's the argument I was trying to make.
@colander said:
As I said above and my previous post you can do that very easily in Overscan.
No you can't. You might have said it, but that doesn't make it true. Your HUD either scales, which isn't optimal in my view, or overlaps, which is worse. For me that is not a working method.
@colander said:
Man it is hard to know what to say to that, guitarist and country music, really? Ok don't use the same code but that sure doesn't make it very universal. You put your method up as a UB solution correct? Nearly every game has a HUD show me your universal method with a HUD for each device on each of your scenes.
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For example put a score on it along with playing buttons, level label, menu button, etc, you know a typical HUD. The actors don't have to work mine don't they are just there to show people what happens when you change device. You can keep them all the same size just show me how you make it work on all devices.
OK, so you don't like the guitarist analogy, I get it, but you are diverting attention. It was an analogy, the example is just and example, you need to look at the deeper meaning, which you instead ignored. So, not a guitarist, OK. In that case you asking me to make a HUD demo is like asking an opera singer friend of yours who doesn't consider pop to be real music to teach you how to sing Gaga's Just Dance. Or asking a physicist who just claimed time travel is impossible to explain how to travel through time. What's the point of these analogies?A request like this makes no sense. Why would a physicist try to explain something he believes is not possible? He wouldn't lose time trying to do that.
The method I use adjusts the game content to work in a UB app. All you need to do is place your custom-made HUD over it and you are ready.
@colander said:
That's what I want a HUD on all of them then we can see how it all works together. Come on I put up now it is your turn .
Again, it's really nice that you want a HUD demo, but that is one thing I am just not going to do, sorry. If most of my arguments are that making a general UB adjustment for HUD is nonsense, I hope you understand that trying to make such a UB adjustment seems to me like a waste of time. I am completely open to making a demo of something I consider a sensible endeavor, even if I spend a lot of time on it, but making something I believe to be pointless would be illogical.
I could make a demo with a specific HUD. If someone said -- "Hey, I used your method, and all works, except I also need help with adjusting my HUD, and this is what it looks like." -- then I can help them, because they will have a specific HUD, and we can work out a specific solution, perfect for that one HUD. You will have a set number of buttons with clear functions, and then you can think: how do we make this good for the player? That the most important buttons are all in convenient positions? You really need to make those choices as a person, case by case. No UB method will ever be able to intelligently make those decisions for you.
@pHghost said: "Panning around a map and seeing into all the corners on every device is a very good example of what Stretch can do and Overscan cannot. As well as making a UB where things retain their dimensions in pixels. Feel free to prove me wrong in any of those (ideally with a demo), but I have yet to see overscan be able to do those things."
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Especially the bolded second one is of importance, as that was the primary reason I made my method.
I am starting to wonder if you read my posts did you not see the attached template which which pans around to all corners. I have attached again to this post. What do you mean by "things retain their dimensions in pixels"? Are you talking about the HUD? If so it was asked and answered, more again below.
Well, if in Overscan these buttons overlap in the case of keeping their original size, then that simply means that the method is not working well, isn't that so? That's the argument I was trying to make.
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and
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No you can't. You might have said it, but that doesn't make it true. Your HUD either scales, which isn't optimal in my view, or overlaps, which is worse. For me that is not a working method.
I have answered this, come on we can not keep going over the same ground all the time. If my code can shrink the buttons don't you realise it can be adapted to keep the actors the same size or bigger for that matter? It just needs to be coded and it can be done in any of the methods Letterbox, Stretch or Overscan, your argument is not valid.
Again, it's really nice that you want a HUD demo, but that is one thing I am just not going to do, sorry. If most of my arguments are that making a general UB adjustment for HUD is nonsense, I hope you understand that trying to make such a UB adjustment seems to me like a waste of time. I am completely open to making a demo of something I consider a sensible endeavor, even if I spend a lot of time on it, but making something I believe to be pointless would be illogical.
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I could make a demo with a specific HUD. If someone said -- "Hey, I used your method, and all works, except I also need help with adjusting my HUD, and this is what it looks like." -- then I can help them, because they will have a specific HUD, and we can work out a specific solution, perfect for that one HUD. You will have a set number of buttons with clear functions, and then you can think: how do we make this good for the player? That the most important buttons are all in convenient positions? You really need to make those choices as a person, case by case. No UB method will ever be able to intelligently make those decisions for you.
I will skip the singer, physicist etc again it doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with handling and designing a HUD lets stick to the issue.
My point to you is (Please read carefully) Overscan can do exactly what you have done. In my method at the moment if the actor sizing code is off it will reduce the actors sizes by magnification and if it is on they will be reduced further. This code can be adapted to keep the same physical size if desired at the moment this is not in my UB but it won't be hard to do this and I do intend to do it. I hadn't considered someone would want this until you brought it up.
If the HUD is not busy keeping the same size could be a good design if it is busy like the attached one then it won't work and the actors will need to be resized. This is my challenge to you construct the rules and formulas in your Universal Binary to make it universal. It is not pointless if you are making a UB it will need to handle basic and complex HUD's, it's a UB. Mine handles them all and I will add a feature to keep them the same size like yours.
So far I have talked and backed it up with action. You challenged me saying my method couldn't scroll a map and look into every corner, I did it, it's attached. I challenge you to make your method handle a range of HUD's not just a basic one and you talk and don't do anything. I thought we would push each other to make our UB's a lot better. Mines improving thanks to you challenging me so come on do something.
I have no doubt that everything in yours can be coded to do what mine does. It is just a matter or which one ends up being the easiest to implement and use and we will find out the short comings and just how universal they are along the way.
If you even put up an attempt I will help you to improve it. I am not married to Overscan if yours ends up better I will jump ship and use it. Just have a go when you get a chance and see what happens you may end up with the bomb, wouldn't that be cool .
I am spending way too much time writing these, back to work .
I know it does. The fact that there are methods that attempt to do this and that you have a HUD doesn't mean that it works well, though, which is my point. I am not saying it's not going to work at all, I am saying the results of that will be a mess, unless designed for the specific HUD in the game you are making.
I'll split this into several posts, each about one topic (roughly):
@colander said:
did you not see the attached template which which pans around to all corners. I have attached again to this post.
I saw it, and it doesn't work. See video:
Compare that to Stretch method (portrait demonstrated at 1:40):
You might say: "Oh, but that's because the method isn't optimized for portrait." Well, yes, possibly. The point is that the Stretch method doesn't need to be optimized for any of this. If you need scrolling around a map, it works immediately out of the box for any size you throw at it, even a custom size.
@colander said:
What do you mean by "things retain their dimensions in pixels"? Are you talking about the HUD? If so it was asked and answered, more again below.
Simple: that images you create 100px by 100 px will always display at that exact pixel size on all devices, taking up 100px by 100 px of the display. I explained that a couple times already. And no, I am not talking about HUD. Everything.
This is not a function you would need to use for a side-scrolling game, but for more advanced games like a strategy game (though any 4-way scrolling map is ideally suited, even if it is a platformer, as long as it is both horizontal and vertical), and also especially in cases when you are working with 8-bit assets that need to be shown pixel-perfect.
@colander said:
I have answered this, come on we can not keep going over the same ground all the time. If my code can shrink the buttons don't you realise it can be adapted to keep the actors the same size or bigger for that matter? It just needs to be coded and it can be done in any of the methods Letterbox, Stretch or Overscan, your argument is not valid.
Well, if it doesn't work in a way to be useful, then my argument is valid. That is why I keep coming back to it, because you keep on claiming it works, but if you test it, it doesn't.
@colander said:
If the HUD is not busy keeping the same size could be a good design if it is busy like the attached one then it won't work and the actors will need to be resized.
Yes it will work, even if it is as busy as the attached one. Here are the examples:
Your iPad version that you posted, has 91% of the field free for game content.
If you resize yours (using your method):
You have 89% of the field free for game content.
If you do it my way (no scaling), this is the iPhone:
You have 88% of the field free for game content, so just 1% less than with resize.
If you do it my way (no scaling), this is the iPad:
You have 97% of the field free for game content, 6% more than your version with resize.
@colander said:
My point to you is (Please read carefully) Overscan can do exactly what you have done.
Well, I hope my videos clearly explain why I don't agree with that statement.
@colander said:
I will skip the singer, physicist etc again it doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with handling and designing a HUD lets stick to the issue.
But that is a huge mistake. It is a very important point I am making.
To be clear why I used the examples, analogy, according to the dictionary is: "a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based" or "a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification"
I even put the meaning in bold for you: What's the point of these analogies? That a request like yours makes no sense, it is illogical.
But you still completely ignore one of my most important arguments.
@colander said:
This is my challenge to you construct the rules and formulas in your Universal Binary to make it universal.
Not possible to do it intelligently in a way that makes sense for all devices, so your challenge is a waste of time for me, sadly.
@colander said:
It is not pointless if you are making a UB it will need to handle basic and complex HUD's, it's a UB. Mine handles them all and I will add a feature to keep them the same size like yours.
No, unfortunately yours does not handle them well, which is just proof for my argument, really.
@colander said:
ISo far I have talked and backed it up with action. You challenged me saying my method couldn't scroll a map and look into every corner, I did it, it's attached.
Only it doesn't work universally and it actually doesn't see into every corner. You need to create "dead space" for it to work and even then it is limited. Your 'corners' aren't actually the corners of the scene.size, but 'fake' corners. (As shown in video.)
@colander said:
I challenge you to make your method handle a range of HUD's not just a basic one and you talk and don't do anything. I thought we would push each other to make our UB's a lot better. Mines improving thanks to you challenging me so come on do something.
I am pushing you to do things because you claim that your template can do things which it cannot. I never claimed that my template can work with HUDs, since I think it doesn't make sense to do that in the first place. One more time: my template is not made to manage HUDs, and it is like that on purpose, because I think managing HUDs with an automated method is not a good idea.
@colander said:
I have no doubt that everything in yours can be coded to do what mine does.
Yes, but I don't want to make mine to do what your does, because I think some of the features in yours cannot ever work perfectly, so I would really be just introducing things I consider bugs into my template, and that makes no sense.
@colander said:
I am spending way too much time writing these, back to work .
@pHghost said: I saw it, and it doesn't work. See video:
It does you just need things spelt out to you. The dead space you are waving your mouse around in is never in the playable area in any of the devices It is there to allow the camera to offset. It also totally escapes me why you would change to a portrait view in a game designed in landscape (Or in reverse for that matter) it would change the playing area dramatically.
You might say: "Oh, but that's because the method isn't optimized for portrait." Well, yes, possibly. The point is that the Stretch method doesn't need to be optimized for any of this. If you need scrolling around a map, it works immediately out of the box for any size you throw at it, even a custom size.
Think about it, your method is unusable the map view in an iPad is massive compared to an iPhone 5. It is not a method at all.
Simple: that images you create 100px by 100 px will always display at that exact pixel size on all devices, taking up 100px by 100 px of the display. I explained that a couple times already. And no, I am not talking about HUD. Everything.
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This is not a function you would need to use for a side-scrolling game, but for more advanced games like a strategy game (though any 4-way scrolling map is ideally suited, even if it is a platformer, as long as it is both horizontal and vertical), and also especially in cases when you are working with 8-bit assets that need to be shown pixel-perfect.
It is not a method for the reason above all you are doing is shifting the buttons in an unusable method.
Well, if it doesn't work in a way to be useful, then my argument is valid. That is why I keep coming back to it, because you keep on claiming it works, but if you test it, it doesn't.
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Here, demonstrated in a video:
I really am starting to wonder about you you don't seem to read my posts. I can code what you have done, it is not in my UB so you can't see it yet. If you can write code to shift buttons why can't I? Do you really think I can't shift and resize buttons after all I have shown you?
Yes it will work, even if it is as busy as the attached one. Here are the examples:
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Your iPad version that you posted, has 91% of the field free for game content.
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If you resize yours (using your method):
Then do it in your project stop stalling. With the amount of effort you have put in here you could have done it.
Well, I hope my videos clearly explain why I don't agree with that statement.
They don't because you misunderstood how mine worked and the fact the button code to keep it like yours is not in there but can be done as stated before.
But that is a huge mistake. It is a very important point I am making.
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To be clear why I used the examples, analogy, according to the dictionary is: "a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based" or "a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification"
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I even put the meaning in bold for you: What's the point of these analogies? That a request like yours makes no sense, it is illogical.
But you still completely ignore one of my most important arguments.
Analogies are used by people whose arguments are weak and they wish to distract or try to justify their weak argument. Designing a HUD is a combination of graphic design and programming not guitars, singers and physicists. If you really must use analogies try a famous painter or designer it is still weak but at least comparable.
Not possible to do it intelligently in a way that makes sense for all devices, so your challenge is a waste of time for me, sadly.
No, unfortunately yours does not handle them well, which is just proof for my argument, really.
Of course it is and mine do.
Only it doesn't work universally and it actually doesn't see into every corner. You need to create "dead space" for it to work and even then it is limited. Your 'corners' aren't actually the corners of the scene.size, but 'fake' corners. (As shown in video.)
Really this is your argument? There is a whole lot of things on the scene the player never sees like control actors that are off the scene, invisible actors on the scene for collisions, etc. If you want to use the word 'fake' you could say it is all fake except the hardware.
It does see into every corner of the game the user is playing. They are marked by the 200x200 actors set 5 px in on the x and y. Even your other scenes have unseen areas in them that are off the screen it is all part of creating UB's.
I am pushing you to do things because you claim that your template can do things which it cannot. I never claimed that my template can work with HUDs, since I think it doesn't make sense to do that in the first place. One more time: my template is not made to manage HUDs, and it is like that on purpose, because I think managing HUDs with an automated method is not a good idea.
Mine does what I claim read the op. Your map scroller is not usable and if your method can't handle HUD's it is not a UB.
Yes, but I don't want to make mine to do what your does, because I think some of the features in yours cannot ever work perfectly, so I would really be just introducing things I consider bugs into my template, and that makes no sense.
It is not about perfection it is about creating a UB read op.
@pHghost to save all the back and forth regarding your HUD I have laid it out for you. You changed the image of my HUD but it won't work anyway because your code will only handle the corner quarters of the screen anything in the middle quarters is misplaced. So even thought you shrunk it and put it in the corners where the four way control is not useable. Even if I used your change to my UD the power bar still won't sit in the correct position. But you already knew this that's why you wouldn't do it.
@colander said:
It does you just need things spelt out to you.
It doesn't, and you are more and more starting to use personal attacks instead of providing any evidence that it works. If you want to construct your arguments this way, using ridicule, we can stop the discussion here, because it stops being constructive at that point.
@colander said:
The dead space you are waving your mouse around in is never in the playable area in any of the devices. It is there to allow the camera to offset.
Yes, I understand that. But that means it isn't really universal. It means you have to construct your game with the template in mind. And that for me is taboo. The template should serve the game, not the other way around.
What if someone build a game already and they need to make it UB? With your method, they have to go into every scene and completely redo everything, because they don't have any of the dead space. What if they have tens of scenes? Huge problem. With Stretch, you just drop in the camera rules and you are ready to publish.
@colander said:
It also totally escapes me why you would change to a portrait view in a game designed in landscape (Or in reverse for that matter) it would change the playing area dramatically.
You should leave that to the game designers. Most games won't need to do that (I certainly never had the need for it), but who knows, maybe someone will come up with a revolutionary idea using this?
More importantly though, I am not showing the problem is in switching between landscape and portrait in one game. The problem is your template doesn't work in portrait mode at all.
@colander said:
Think about it, your method is unusable the map view in an iPad is massive compared to an iPhone 5. It is not a method at all.
What kind of an argument is this? Again, just a personal attack. The map view on the iPad is much bigger, yes. I call that using screen real estate. What is the point of a bigger screen if you don't show more content (or detail) by using it?
@colander said:
I can code what you have done, it is not in my UB so you can't see it yet. If you can write code to shift buttons why can't I? Do you really think I can't shift and resize buttons after all I have shown you?
I didn't say you won't be able to code it. You claimed it was working in the method you posted already (and you posted it again to prove your point). So I just showed it doesn't work right now. If you go and fix it, then it probably will work in some respect.
@colander said:
Then do it in your project stop stalling. With the amount of effort you have put in here you could have done it.
Nope, you need manual adjustment. Why aren't the screenshots I posted enough for you? I think they demonstrate quite clearly what I am talking about.
@colander said:
They don't because you misunderstood how mine worked and the fact the button code to keep it like yours is not in there but can be done as stated before.
Well, then you shouldn't claim it works already, which you did.
@colander said:
Analogies are used by people whose arguments are weak and they wish to distract or try to justify their weak argument.
Sorry, but here I just have to poke fun at you. Doubly so since it is just another personal attack anyway. If you think analogies are only used by people whose arguments are weak and they wish to distract or try to justify their weak argument, you evidently know absolutely nothing about philosophy, science, literature etc., as analogy is used in all of those and is an integral part of communication.
As Wikipedia states:
Analogy has been studied and discussed since classical antiquity by philosophers, scientists and lawyers. The last few decades have shown a renewed interest in analogy, most notably in cognitive science.
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Analogy plays a significant role in problem solving such as, decision making, perception, memory, creativity, emotion, explanation and communication. It lies behind basic tasks such as the identification of places, objects and people, for example, in face perception and facial recognition systems. It has been argued that analogy is "the core of cognition".
Basically, without analogy you become just an unthinking robot.
Well, that is the big problem, then. Apparently our design principles are very different. For me it absolutely is about perfection and making the best product possible.
In any case, if you further feel like constructing your arguments around personal attacks and not on proving points with practical examples (like screenshots, videos, templates etc.), I will bow out of this discussion, as I don't see it being useful in further developing either the Stretch UB method or anything else, for that matter.
Talk, talk talk is all you do if that is a personal attack then so be it. I am not going to keep combing through your posts and responding, in a lot of places they don't even make sense and you don't have a good grasp of what a UB is.
EDIT: You can see this in my last post where I put a HUD in your project it doesn't work and any game you make in this all play would have to take place in the bottom right of the screen or you won't see it on a phone. No one can make a UB game with this.
As I said before we will just have to agree to disagree .
I also made videos, screenshots and used math to prove my points, as factual evidence. But since that apparently isn't proof for you, it's hard to get anywhere with this.
I wish I could show even more to prove my point, but unfortunately some things I am not allowed to talk about because of a project I am working on right now.
pHghost said: For me UB is not about the HUD, but about the game content. HUD is a layer above that and should always be specifically designed.
And there it is in black and white, you don't understand UB's. A UB is about the whole project you can not leave part of it out. Of course HUD's are specifically designed just like the rest of the game is, it is all about design the UB just takes it and fits it to all devices.
I can see your lack of understanding in your project. Apart from the major design flaw in game play (You can only play in the bottom left of the screen on a tablet if you want a UB for a phone) you can only put bHUD actors in the corner quarters another major design flaw.
I also made videos, screenshots and used math to prove my points, as factual evidence. But since that apparently isn't proof for you, it's hard to get anywhere with this.
Since you have posted you v1.0 all you have done it talk. Making videos to try and support the unsupportable is not doing something to demonstrate your project. It's a cop out. I noticed the silence on the HUD I put in you project in my third last post.
I wish I could show even more to prove my point, but unfortunately some things I am not allowed to talk about because of a project I am working on right now.
Come on that is an old excuse and the is all it is. There is nothing stopping you from showing me more in this project of yours.
@colander said:
And there it is in black and white, you don't understand UB's.
LOL. You are just taking things out of context.
@colander said:
I can see your lack of understanding in your project. Apart from the major design flaw in game play (You can only play in the bottom left of the screen on a tablet if you want a UB for a phone) you can only put bHUD actors in the corner quarters another major design flaw.
How did you figure any of these things out? You are just piling up more personal attacks. The UB template has nothing to do with gameplay, it is not a game, just a method how to adjust in-game camera.
@colander said:
I noticed the silence on the HUD I put in you project in my third last post.
I didn't see it until now, we posted our posts almost at the same time and since mine was second, it didn't notify me you had posted it. What can I say though, really? It doesn't work. But that only proves you didn't put any effort in it. I can easily put something random in your template and say -- hey, it doesn't work! But that proves absolutely nothing. P.S. Read the notes in the HUD actor.
@colander said:
Come on that is an old excuse and the is all it is. There is nothing stopping you from showing me more in this project of yours.
You wish. I know you'd like to know more, but I signed a non-disclosure agreement and there are certain details I cannot discuss at the moment, which are unfortunately related to this discussion. If you want to have a peek at some stuff related to that project (and also judge my "lack of understanding," as you called it) look at my thread on AI and pathfinding: http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/71909/demo-combat-terrain-generation-and-ai-on-a-grid-based-map
I am through pussy footing around. With regard to your map scroller I have with increasing vigour tried to get you to see what you should have seen right away it is "rubbish" and should have never left your computer in its present state. At the very least you should have seen it by now. There I said it if you want to construe it as a personal attack go right ahead.
Want an analogy? How about you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink! Or apparently think logically. Now that is a personal attack but after all this time I couldn't help myself, I apologise.
Want an example of your illogical thinking? Look at your entire last post. In the first paragraph you laugh and make and inane comment which in no way refutes the statement. In your second paragraph you duck behind what is becoming you favourite fall back the personal attack accusation. If I am going to be accused of it I may as well do it. In this post I have definitely given you reason to use it so feel free.
Now this is my personal favourite from the whole post and entirely underscores my points that you don't understand UB's and don't think logically. You said "The UB template has nothing to do with gameplay, it is not a game, just a method how to adjust in-game camera."
One is intrinsically linked with the other you must consider both when choosing a method and designing your game play. Two you are not adjusting the camera "in-game" at all you are adjusting it when the app starts and before the game itself starts. But I know what you mean, the app starts, the camera shifts and the game starts. See I can be reasonable. My second point is it is not a "method" at all it is at best a work in progress if this is it then it is rubbish. If I bought a game I could only play on the lower left side of my iPad because that's the only way the developer could also fit it on my iPhone I would think the developer was lazy or incompetent or both. A major flaw.
Your third paragraph, wow, it is hard to know what to say to someone who defends against absolute proof. That HUD is not random it is close to one already in an update to one of my games I am releasing soon. I laid it out in your so called UB and what a surprise it didn't work. That's because it will only position HUD actors in the corner quarters. Another major flaw.
The fourth paragraph now I am laughing you have tried to link two totally unrelated things or don't you realise I am talking about your so called map scroller UB method? I stopped calling it a UB some time ago and refer to it as your project because that's all it is at the moment. It certainly is not a UB, a method, a anything but it might be with major work.
I have said what I have said and will now return to my usual polite self and with great difficulty and probably not for the last time, stop arguing with you. Any way good luck with your ai project. Over an hopefully out .
I think both you guys need to cool this now, I have been roughly following other the course of these UB threads and all the discussions.
Truth is, find what works for your game and go with that. I don't think any of the solutions I have seen would work for all games.
Who am I or anyone for that matter, to tell a creator of their own project they should of done this or that?
Fact is, you are both now bordering on what is a healthy discussion and its turned into a playground 'my dad is bigger than yours' type conversation. You have both demonstrated some very useful and helpful methods to the community, it is now down to them to chose what works for them ... if any!
Lets keep it civil gents, its not worth any bickering!
@beefy_clyro said:
I think both you guys need to cool this now, I have been roughly following other the course of these UB threads and all the discussions.
Truth is, find what works for your game and go with that. I don't think any of the solutions I have seen would work for all games.
Who am I or anyone for that matter, to tell a creator of their own project they should of done this or that?
Fact is, you are both now bordering on what is a healthy discussion and its turned into a playground 'my dad is bigger than yours' type conversation. You have both demonstrated some very useful and helpful methods to the community, it is now down to them to chose what works for them ... if any!
Lets keep it civil gents, its not worth any bickering!
@pokapola always good to find an answer. There is some more info in the instructions in my signature. Also a link to a paid version with which is a proper template with vertical, horizontal and map scrolling scenes with hero and swipe control.
It also has group control code so actors stay together in a group keeping there relative positions to each other i.e. four way directional controls on a HUD. The playing area and scene edges are marked you don't have to work it out and a full set of instructions.
Comments
I've just been really busy over the weekend, yesterday especially, and might be for a day or two more, but I haven't run away, I promise.
@pHghost cool
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Good, I'd like to see how this unfolds.
There is an issue in the UB 7 series projects. In the Scene/Layers tab the Setup actor is at the top of the Background layer it needs to be moved to the bottom for reliable performance. I will be releasing an update soon. Poor @gyroscope I am over working him with these updates.
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"Panning around a map and seeing into all the corners on every device is a very good example of what Stretch can do and Overscan cannot. As well as making a UB where things retain their dimensions in pixels. Feel free to prove me wrong in any of those (ideally with a demo), but I have yet to see overscan be able to do those things."
Especially the bolded second one is of importance, as that was the primary reason I made my method.
Well, if in Overscan these buttons overlap in the case of keeping their original size, then that simply means that the method is not working well, isn't that so? That's the argument I was trying to make.
No you can't. You might have said it, but that doesn't make it true.
Your HUD either scales, which isn't optimal in my view, or overlaps, which is worse. For me that is not a working method.
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OK, so you don't like the guitarist analogy, I get it, but you are diverting attention. It was an analogy, the example is just and example, you need to look at the deeper meaning, which you instead ignored. So, not a guitarist, OK. In that case you asking me to make a HUD demo is like asking an opera singer friend of yours who doesn't consider pop to be real music to teach you how to sing Gaga's Just Dance. Or asking a physicist who just claimed time travel is impossible to explain how to travel through time. What's the point of these analogies? A request like this makes no sense. Why would a physicist try to explain something he believes is not possible? He wouldn't lose time trying to do that.
The method I use adjusts the game content to work in a UB app. All you need to do is place your custom-made HUD over it and you are ready.
Again, it's really nice that you want a HUD demo, but that is one thing I am just not going to do, sorry. If most of my arguments are that making a general UB adjustment for HUD is nonsense, I hope you understand that trying to make such a UB adjustment seems to me like a waste of time. I am completely open to making a demo of something I consider a sensible endeavor, even if I spend a lot of time on it, but making something I believe to be pointless would be illogical.
I could make a demo with a specific HUD. If someone said -- "Hey, I used your method, and all works, except I also need help with adjusting my HUD, and this is what it looks like." -- then I can help them, because they will have a specific HUD, and we can work out a specific solution, perfect for that one HUD. You will have a set number of buttons with clear functions, and then you can think: how do we make this good for the player? That the most important buttons are all in convenient positions? You really need to make those choices as a person, case by case. No UB method will ever be able to intelligently make those decisions for you.
Mine has a HUD,lol.
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I am starting to wonder if you read my posts did you not see the attached template which which pans around to all corners. I have attached again to this post. What do you mean by "things retain their dimensions in pixels"? Are you talking about the HUD? If so it was asked and answered, more again below.
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I have answered this, come on we can not keep going over the same ground all the time. If my code can shrink the buttons don't you realise it can be adapted to keep the actors the same size or bigger for that matter? It just needs to be coded and it can be done in any of the methods Letterbox, Stretch or Overscan, your argument is not valid.
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I will skip the singer, physicist etc again it doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with handling and designing a HUD lets stick to the issue.
My point to you is (Please read carefully) Overscan can do exactly what you have done. In my method at the moment if the actor sizing code is off it will reduce the actors sizes by magnification and if it is on they will be reduced further. This code can be adapted to keep the same physical size if desired at the moment this is not in my UB but it won't be hard to do this and I do intend to do it. I hadn't considered someone would want this until you brought it up.
If the HUD is not busy keeping the same size could be a good design if it is busy like the attached one then it won't work and the actors will need to be resized. This is my challenge to you construct the rules and formulas in your Universal Binary to make it universal. It is not pointless if you are making a UB it will need to handle basic and complex HUD's, it's a UB. Mine handles them all and I will add a feature to keep them the same size like yours.
So far I have talked and backed it up with action. You challenged me saying my method couldn't scroll a map and look into every corner, I did it, it's attached. I challenge you to make your method handle a range of HUD's not just a basic one and you talk and don't do anything. I thought we would push each other to make our UB's a lot better. Mines improving thanks to you challenging me so come on do something.
I have no doubt that everything in yours can be coded to do what mine does. It is just a matter or which one ends up being the easiest to implement and use and we will find out the short comings and just how universal they are along the way.
If you even put up an attempt I will help you to improve it. I am not married to Overscan if yours ends up better I will jump ship and use it. Just have a go when you get a chance and see what happens you may end up with the bomb, wouldn't that be cool
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I am spending way too much time writing these, back to work
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Universal Binary Template - Universal Binary Template Instructions Rev 4 (Short) - Custom Score Display Template
I know it does.
The fact that there are methods that attempt to do this and that you have a HUD doesn't mean that it works well, though, which is my point. I am not saying it's not going to work at all, I am saying the results of that will be a mess, unless designed for the specific HUD in the game you are making.
I'll split this into several posts, each about one topic (roughly):
I saw it, and it doesn't work. See video:
Compare that to Stretch method (portrait demonstrated at 1:40):
You might say: "Oh, but that's because the method isn't optimized for portrait." Well, yes, possibly. The point is that the Stretch method doesn't need to be optimized for any of this. If you need scrolling around a map, it works immediately out of the box for any size you throw at it, even a custom size.
Simple: that images you create 100px by 100 px will always display at that exact pixel size on all devices, taking up 100px by 100 px of the display. I explained that a couple times already. And no, I am not talking about HUD. Everything.
This is not a function you would need to use for a side-scrolling game, but for more advanced games like a strategy game (though any 4-way scrolling map is ideally suited, even if it is a platformer, as long as it is both horizontal and vertical), and also especially in cases when you are working with 8-bit assets that need to be shown pixel-perfect.
Well, if it doesn't work in a way to be useful, then my argument is valid. That is why I keep coming back to it, because you keep on claiming it works, but if you test it, it doesn't.
Here, demonstrated in a video:
Yes it will work, even if it is as busy as the attached one. Here are the examples:
Your iPad version that you posted, has 91% of the field free for game content.
If you resize yours (using your method):
You have 89% of the field free for game content.
If you do it my way (no scaling), this is the iPhone:
You have 88% of the field free for game content, so just 1% less than with resize.
If you do it my way (no scaling), this is the iPad:
You have 97% of the field free for game content, 6% more than your version with resize.
Well, I hope my videos clearly explain why I don't agree with that statement.
But that is a huge mistake. It is a very important point I am making.
To be clear why I used the examples, analogy, according to the dictionary is: "a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based" or "a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification"
I even put the meaning in bold for you: What's the point of these analogies? That a request like yours makes no sense, it is illogical.
But you still completely ignore one of my most important arguments.
Not possible to do it intelligently in a way that makes sense for all devices, so your challenge is a waste of time for me, sadly.
No, unfortunately yours does not handle them well, which is just proof for my argument, really.
Only it doesn't work universally and it actually doesn't see into every corner. You need to create "dead space" for it to work and even then it is limited. Your 'corners' aren't actually the corners of the scene.size, but 'fake' corners. (As shown in video.)
I am pushing you to do things because you claim that your template can do things which it cannot. I never claimed that my template can work with HUDs, since I think it doesn't make sense to do that in the first place. One more time: my template is not made to manage HUDs, and it is like that on purpose, because I think managing HUDs with an automated method is not a good idea.
Yes, but I don't want to make mine to do what your does, because I think some of the features in yours cannot ever work perfectly, so I would really be just introducing things I consider bugs into my template, and that makes no sense.
Same on my side.
It does you just need things spelt out to you. The dead space you are waving your mouse around in is never in the playable area in any of the devices It is there to allow the camera to offset. It also totally escapes me why you would change to a portrait view in a game designed in landscape (Or in reverse for that matter) it would change the playing area dramatically.
Think about it, your method is unusable the map view in an iPad is massive compared to an iPhone 5. It is not a method at all.
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It is not a method for the reason above all you are doing is shifting the buttons in an unusable method.
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I really am starting to wonder about you you don't seem to read my posts. I can code what you have done, it is not in my UB so you can't see it yet. If you can write code to shift buttons why can't I? Do you really think I can't shift and resize buttons after all I have shown you?
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Then do it in your project stop stalling. With the amount of effort you have put in here you could have done it.
They don't because you misunderstood how mine worked and the fact the button code to keep it like yours is not in there but can be done as stated before.
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Analogies are used by people whose arguments are weak and they wish to distract or try to justify their weak argument. Designing a HUD is a combination of graphic design and programming not guitars, singers and physicists. If you really must use analogies try a famous painter or designer it is still weak but at least comparable.
Of course it is and mine do.
Really this is your argument? There is a whole lot of things on the scene the player never sees like control actors that are off the scene, invisible actors on the scene for collisions, etc. If you want to use the word 'fake' you could say it is all fake except the hardware.
It does see into every corner of the game the user is playing. They are marked by the 200x200 actors set 5 px in on the x and y. Even your other scenes have unseen areas in them that are off the screen it is all part of creating UB's.
Mine does what I claim read the op. Your map scroller is not usable and if your method can't handle HUD's it is not a UB.
It is not about perfection it is about creating a UB read op.
I cut this down to an hour, I think
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@pHghost to save all the back and forth regarding your HUD I have laid it out for you. You changed the image of my HUD but it won't work anyway because your code will only handle the corner quarters of the screen anything in the middle quarters is misplaced. So even thought you shrunk it and put it in the corners where the four way control is not useable. Even if I used your change to my UD the power bar still won't sit in the correct position. But you already knew this that's why you wouldn't do it.
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It doesn't, and you are more and more starting to use personal attacks instead of providing any evidence that it works. If you want to construct your arguments this way, using ridicule, we can stop the discussion here, because it stops being constructive at that point.
Yes, I understand that. But that means it isn't really universal. It means you have to construct your game with the template in mind. And that for me is taboo. The template should serve the game, not the other way around.
What if someone build a game already and they need to make it UB? With your method, they have to go into every scene and completely redo everything, because they don't have any of the dead space. What if they have tens of scenes? Huge problem. With Stretch, you just drop in the camera rules and you are ready to publish.
You should leave that to the game designers. Most games won't need to do that (I certainly never had the need for it), but who knows, maybe someone will come up with a revolutionary idea using this?
More importantly though, I am not showing the problem is in switching between landscape and portrait in one game. The problem is your template doesn't work in portrait mode at all.
What kind of an argument is this? Again, just a personal attack. The map view on the iPad is much bigger, yes. I call that using screen real estate. What is the point of a bigger screen if you don't show more content (or detail) by using it?
I didn't say you won't be able to code it. You claimed it was working in the method you posted already (and you posted it again to prove your point). So I just showed it doesn't work right now. If you go and fix it, then it probably will work in some respect.
Nope, you need manual adjustment. Why aren't the screenshots I posted enough for you? I think they demonstrate quite clearly what I am talking about.
Well, then you shouldn't claim it works already, which you did.
Sorry, but here I just have to poke fun at you. Doubly so since it is just another personal attack anyway. If you think analogies are only used by people whose arguments are weak and they wish to distract or try to justify their weak argument, you evidently know absolutely nothing about philosophy, science, literature etc., as analogy is used in all of those and is an integral part of communication.
As Wikipedia states:
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Basically, without analogy you become just an unthinking robot.
Well, that is the big problem, then. Apparently our design principles are very different. For me it absolutely is about perfection and making the best product possible.
In any case, if you further feel like constructing your arguments around personal attacks and not on proving points with practical examples (like screenshots, videos, templates etc.), I will bow out of this discussion, as I don't see it being useful in further developing either the Stretch UB method or anything else, for that matter.
Talk, talk talk is all you do if that is a personal attack then so be it. I am not going to keep combing through your posts and responding, in a lot of places they don't even make sense and you don't have a good grasp of what a UB is.
EDIT: You can see this in my last post where I put a HUD in your project it doesn't work and any game you make in this all play would have to take place in the bottom right of the screen or you won't see it on a phone. No one can make a UB game with this.
As I said before we will just have to agree to disagree
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For me UB is not about the HUD, but about the game content. HUD is a layer above that and should always be specifically designed.
I also made videos, screenshots and used math to prove my points, as factual evidence. But since that apparently isn't proof for you, it's hard to get anywhere with this.
I wish I could show even more to prove my point, but unfortunately some things I am not allowed to talk about because of a project I am working on right now.
And there it is in black and white, you don't understand UB's. A UB is about the whole project you can not leave part of it out. Of course HUD's are specifically designed just like the rest of the game is, it is all about design the UB just takes it and fits it to all devices.
I can see your lack of understanding in your project. Apart from the major design flaw in game play (You can only play in the bottom left of the screen on a tablet if you want a UB for a phone) you can only put bHUD actors in the corner quarters another major design flaw.
Since you have posted you v1.0 all you have done it talk. Making videos to try and support the unsupportable is not doing something to demonstrate your project. It's a cop out. I noticed the silence on the HUD I put in you project in my third last post.
Come on that is an old excuse and the is all it is. There is nothing stopping you from showing me more in this project of yours.
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LOL. You are just taking things out of context.
How did you figure any of these things out? You are just piling up more personal attacks. The UB template has nothing to do with gameplay, it is not a game, just a method how to adjust in-game camera.
I didn't see it until now, we posted our posts almost at the same time and since mine was second, it didn't notify me you had posted it. What can I say though, really? It doesn't work. But that only proves you didn't put any effort in it. I can easily put something random in your template and say -- hey, it doesn't work! But that proves absolutely nothing. P.S. Read the notes in the HUD actor.
You wish.
I know you'd like to know more, but I signed a non-disclosure agreement and there are certain details I cannot discuss at the moment, which are unfortunately related to this discussion. If you want to have a peek at some stuff related to that project (and also judge my "lack of understanding," as you called it) look at my thread on AI and pathfinding: http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/71909/demo-combat-terrain-generation-and-ai-on-a-grid-based-map
I am through pussy footing around. With regard to your map scroller I have with increasing vigour tried to get you to see what you should have seen right away it is "rubbish" and should have never left your computer in its present state. At the very least you should have seen it by now. There I said it if you want to construe it as a personal attack go right ahead.
Want an analogy? How about you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink! Or apparently think logically. Now that is a personal attack but after all this time I couldn't help myself, I apologise.
Want an example of your illogical thinking? Look at your entire last post. In the first paragraph you laugh and make and inane comment which in no way refutes the statement. In your second paragraph you duck behind what is becoming you favourite fall back the personal attack accusation. If I am going to be accused of it I may as well do it. In this post I have definitely given you reason to use it so feel free.
Now this is my personal favourite from the whole post and entirely underscores my points that you don't understand UB's and don't think logically. You said "The UB template has nothing to do with gameplay, it is not a game, just a method how to adjust in-game camera."
One is intrinsically linked with the other you must consider both when choosing a method and designing your game play. Two you are not adjusting the camera "in-game" at all you are adjusting it when the app starts and before the game itself starts. But I know what you mean, the app starts, the camera shifts and the game starts. See I can be reasonable. My second point is it is not a "method" at all it is at best a work in progress if this is it then it is rubbish. If I bought a game I could only play on the lower left side of my iPad because that's the only way the developer could also fit it on my iPhone I would think the developer was lazy or incompetent or both. A major flaw.
Your third paragraph, wow, it is hard to know what to say to someone who defends against absolute proof. That HUD is not random it is close to one already in an update to one of my games I am releasing soon. I laid it out in your so called UB and what a surprise it didn't work. That's because it will only position HUD actors in the corner quarters. Another major flaw.
The fourth paragraph now I am laughing you have tried to link two totally unrelated things or don't you realise I am talking about your so called map scroller UB method? I stopped calling it a UB some time ago and refer to it as your project because that's all it is at the moment. It certainly is not a UB, a method, a anything but it might be with major work.
I have said what I have said and will now return to my usual polite self and with great difficulty and probably not for the last time, stop arguing with you. Any way good luck with your ai project. Over an hopefully out
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I think both you guys need to cool this now, I have been roughly following other the course of these UB threads and all the discussions.
Truth is, find what works for your game and go with that. I don't think any of the solutions I have seen would work for all games.
Who am I or anyone for that matter, to tell a creator of their own project they should of done this or that?
Fact is, you are both now bordering on what is a healthy discussion and its turned into a playground 'my dad is bigger than yours' type conversation. You have both demonstrated some very useful and helpful methods to the community, it is now down to them to chose what works for them ... if any!
Lets keep it civil gents, its not worth any bickering!
Yeah gotta agree here.
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It is like being at the scene of an accident, it's ugly, but you can't tear yourself away.
I probably could have built a game in the time I've spent following this thread... but wouldn't have a HUD or be a UB!
@beefy_clyro @AlchimiaStudios @pHghost you are correct I got personal. I have called others out for the same thing before. I apologise to everyone.
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@colander No problem. Everyone goes off the rails once and a while... but only a gentleman admits it and apologises. 5 (*)
Thank you so much! I have been searching on how to do this for god knows how long. Thank!
@pokapola always good to find an answer. There is some more info in the instructions in my signature. Also a link to a paid version with which is a proper template with vertical, horizontal and map scrolling scenes with hero and swipe control.
It also has group control code so actors stay together in a group keeping there relative positions to each other i.e. four way directional controls on a HUD. The playing area and scene edges are marked you don't have to work it out and a full set of instructions.
Universal Binary Template - Universal Binary Template Instructions Rev 4 (Short) - Custom Score Display Template