Does anyone else think GameSalad should simply release the XCode Source to allow
IntelligentDesigner
Member Posts: 517
Does anyone else think GameSalad should simply release the XCode Source to allow enhancements?
That way they could concentrate on the core functionality while allowing us to have a better chance to have our apps be marketable...
What are your thoughts?
That way they could concentrate on the core functionality while allowing us to have a better chance to have our apps be marketable...
What are your thoughts?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
If they'd release it, maybe we could enhance it to get the new features we need, and they'd get more exposure. Right now it's largely a vanity press.
If they release it more technical savvy people who aren't keen on fully learning coding would be able to use the source files to learn to actually code. If you could make a game with Gamesalad and then look at the code in Xcode, it would be a great learning tool (they could market it that way) If they did this, more people would learn to code and therefore less customers. The best thing for them (not us) would be to just add all of the features into Gamesalad, but they seem to be taking quite a while to do so.
Like a lot of people, I know Basic type languages to a fair degree but would consider it a waste of time to try to unravel the thousands of lines of Objective-C coding, even if I could, let alone learn more from it if i had some previous coding experience with it.
Personally, i'm going to be patient to wait for the refinements/additional features/bug-spraying to be done by Gendai and with respect, if someone had tinkered with their code, no matter how experienced or good a tinkering it was, I'd still stick with the original version, and so would most people, I reckon.
Right off my soapbox now. (What do you mean you pushed me off? ;-)
:-)
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Spiral Gyro Games
""You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike." - Zork temp domain http://spidergriffin.wix.com/alphaghostapps
By doing the compile to app for us, we're effectively locked in to a subscription service, for as long as we want to make GS apps. And that's ok with me, it's as good an option as other ways. Another way it could go is like how Flash and Unity are, you pay a lot more money for the product (effectively $3000 for Unity), but then you can make as many apps as you like, without paying a yearly fee.
So, if GS did give us a shell Xcode project to make all our apps with, perhaps they would need to charge about $6000 for it (if they think of it as being the same as giving away three years of Pro license). Of course, they would have to also come up with a good registration system to make sure that people didn't just give their serial number out to everyone.
Overall, $99 a year and not seeing the code is a simpler and cheaper way to work.
I would never do such a thing. I am the man Diogenes was looking for, I guess.
As far as losing customers, I would continue to pay to be a customer to have the ability to XML my way to source code, which is different in each game. I really do not get the argument that GS users would have all they need to make other apps, without renewing. This is silly since the guts of each project are different, and second because a contractual requirement to continue to be a customer could easily be enforced.
Also it was suggested that as a group, we'd share a renewal license, which is absolute nonsense. I would not and I'd bet that well over 90% of the membership here feel the same. There are pirates and thieves in any population, but they are thankfully the minority. As far as that goes, even in the current scenario, there are some that offer to publish games for others, right out in the open forum! That is against the agreement with Gendai, and the hammer will eventually fall.
Why is it our source code?
Simply put, a program that writes programs is worthless without input. We would never have to see Gendai's source code for the app that changes our XML to XCode Source prior to compiling. I agree that that part is not "our" source code. But the source code that is generated from our instructions is ours since it directly relates to creating the object that performs our game functions. I don't know about you, but I at least am not using GS to make a game creation tool.
The real issue is that Gendai does not currently seem to be capable of providing needed features that are potentially causing us to drift away from Apple OS targets. They cannot be expected to wave a magic wand and have all new features added especially when there is such an abundance of basic issues that are critically needed. (Pause, for instance)
Adobe Flash was given the boot because it did not embrace the core features of the Apple iOS. There is a lesson here for those who do not want to repeat history. The real reason Apple added 3.3.1 to the Developer Agreement was to preclude apps that deprived Apple customers of Apple features that defined the use of Apple's hardware. Things like In-App purchasing, iAds, GameCenter, Pause, the ability to make apps that targeted both iPod/iPhone AND iPad, and a plethora of new features that will be added faster that GameSalad can cope with them. Apple wants to ensure that their customers are supplied with apps that adhere to the Apple experience.
I am suggesting that we make it easier for Gendai to succeed, by allowing them to concentrate on their core competency - making games with a drag&drop UI.
Give us the source code that our XML generates and let us add the extra features that create a full "Apple iOS Experience" and we as a team will help ensure the future viability of GameSalad as an Apple App Generator. Some of us at least are ready to add the enhancements that ensure that GameSalad is seen as a viable long range RADD, and a seriously valuable partner for Apple.
they give us the source they are out of buisines
compiling our games is the way they make money.
That's what they sell. That's their service to us.
Plus gs is a game in a sense.
The iPhone loads gs which in turn, runs our game.
Chillingo releases the game for you. You see what I am getting at. Completly different model but point is companies have to protct their assets. Gs assets are quite unique.
I don't think that compiling our games is the way they make money, rather translating our gameproj XML list into source code is how they make money. We'd still need that so they'd still be making money.
If we become disillusioned and leave or Apple decides to not allow GS apps any longer, they'll lose money for sure.
I don't think it is mutually exclusive that we cannot have our source code so as to add the useful features they cannot.
Leaving out features that make it easier for indie developers to make a profit, is also risky.
Gendai should and will keep the source to themselves unless they want to lose a whole heap of money.
But our source is a different story. There is little reason for them to stonewall and withhold it since they are unable to provide the simple enhancements, that allow better marketing and acceptance by the iTunes Store.
And I respectfully disagree with your estimation of piracy, as it is far more likely that the pirates "think" themselves in the majority to justify their vile practices. Thinking "everyone does it, why shouldn't I" may help them to rationalize their theft.
In the long run Gendai will lose far more money by not allowing the product to be as valuable as it could be. Both in the numbers of people who will tire of vanity press, and also from Apple drawing the circle tighter to ensure a better experience for their customers. Giving us our source code involves no risk on their part.
BUT....
I forgot you have to have an activated copy of the editor to even make games.
They could probably protect themselves with that i guess.
Only speculating though since its not my company
As for the "pirates". You're exactly right... people think "everybody is doing it" and therefore justify it and, quite frankly, don't see it as doing anything wrong. Let's face it, if we know something is wrong, we won't do it (for the most part). If you need money, you won't just go down to the gas station and hold it up. I think the problem is, the internet, and in fact piracy in general are relatively new things. It's been engraved in our minds not to murder, steal, rape etc etc... but piracy is still considered to be just "frowned upon". Until there are actual, real consequences and people realise that what they are doing is wrong, it will continue. After all, it's not hard to track someone's IP keep an eye on how many movies they are illegally downloading. The authorities really need to do more to dissuade people from being naughty!
It really is a no brainer for Gendai. Release our source code (not theirs) and allow the additional features to be added and compiled by the members - remember each of us has an Apple SDK, GS is a subset of Apple not the other way... Some of us will add these and some not, but the point is it should be our choice, not "oh well maybe next year... let them do it..."
Or let the members be unsatisfied and decide to leave, which loses Gendai revenue for sure.
And risk Apple deciding that GS apps do not embrace the "Apple Experience" and cut them loose for the same reason they did Adobe.
Remember XCode is object oriented, so you don't have to really care where you add the code for in-app purchase, GameCenter, iAds, etc... you just append about a page of code to the end of the source and compile, and "Bob's your Uncle!"
The pro membership should be entitled to receive tech support freely, and divest the GS logo as it currently is.
@dhondon suggestion seems good: to make the game file code available with the Pro version. It'd be interesting to know the percentage of Pro users who'd take up that part of the offer. Less than 10% I reckon though, so it'd not exactly be a popular selling point. But even if it did happen, the only thing is that it would be pretty much certain that any updated file in Xcode wouldn't be backwards compatible with GS, ruling out easy game app updating within GS.
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Spiral Gyro Apps
""You are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike." - Zork temp domain http://spidergriffin.wix.com/alphaghostapps
You do not own the code, you own the project files created in GS. That is your code. GS provide a service to convert that project file into a binary.
GS Code can be used by competitors to create their own GS software. (Yes, it's not the editor source code, but its the generated code that will have patterns that can be pieced together.).
If you want to code, don't use GameSalad. Seriously, it's advertised for people who have no idea, or simply can't be bothered coding. If you want to do some coding, and do some stuff with a GUI, learn objective C and use the interface builder.
I was just going to reply with a similar response.
It's not the source code that you create when using GS.
It's the XML files that the code calls that you create within GS. (The word document analogy is a great one)
In a simplified way:
Imagine if you had the source code....
You could then take that, and re-point it to some new xml files. The actual engine remains unchanged. Once it's out there in the open, that engine would find it's way to the hands of people with more unscrupulous motives than 99.9% of us.
Don't think that it wouldn't, because we all know it would!
Don't get me wrong...I'd love to be able to slot some other stuff into GS (leaderboards/facebook etc etc) but I also know I don't have the time/patience to learn how to code in objective C or some such. So I am going to have to live with the limitation of GS at this moment in time. That doesn't mean I don't hope the guys include things like that as soon as poss!
All our games run on the same engine. We don't actually write any code, just edit XML files and provide art assets.
If they were to release the source code it would be the IP of their engine.
Our games are just data, like a word doc.
What they should provide is an "External API" Behavior that allows you to call an external API method. But that isn't trivial.