If there is no "XML gameproj" to "XCode Source" step then GameSalad is in violation of Apple Developer Contract provision 3.3.1. and it's just a matter of time before they get shut out, just like Flash did.
3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).
Apple is enforcing this to do what it can to ensure that the features in software it distributes are not watered down and diluted to the lowest common denominator. If we do not provide valuable iOS features, we won't be able to use GameSalad to prepare apps for the AppStore.
This is exactly why Adobe Flash got banned. History has a way of repeating for those who do not learn from it.
@IntelligentDesigner GS creates our games in LUA and then converts the gameproj in xcode. therefore you cant edit it in xcode because its just a bunch of codes. They also dont release the xcode version because if someone did manage to edit the xcode file they could access to the pro features. i think these are the main reasons they cant. Im not an expert at it but that is what i have understood.
The pro features are having the GameSalad logo for a start up screen, and getting technical support.
They could and should give us XCode Source, since that is the value they provide - using a 4GL to create working source code from user specs, in an automated fashion. If they gave us this instead on compiled code, we could easily make up for the shortcomings in the GS tool which does not fully support iDevice Development as is. Then they could concentrate on fixing the editor and making it the best most reliable code creator possible.
And if they are not using their app to convert our XML gameproj data into source code that can be compiled by the xcode compiler, they are not compliant with section 3.3.1 of the developer agreement. That's what got Flash kicked - not supporting core Apple iOS features.
I understand your want for the Xcode Source. And yes, it would be handy to have for several reasons, most of which you've mentioned in this thread.
However, and without wanting to cause offence:
IntelligentDesigner said: The pro features are having the GameSalad logo for a start up screen, and getting technical support.
They could and should give us XCode Source, since that is the value they provide - using a 4GL to create working source code from user specs, in an automated fashion. If they gave us this instead on compiled code, we could easily make up for the shortcomings in the GS tool which does not fully support iDevice Development as is. Then they could concentrate on fixing the editor and making it the best most reliable code creator possible.
Are you ignoring the possible reasons given by others as to why this would be a bad idea? I certainly don't know the ins and outs of how the conversion works, but if you could address the issues raised then perhaps I'd understand better e.g.
How does Gendai protect their business? How does Gendai protect their code? How does Gendai stop people editing the code to get pro features working? How do you see them giving us this ability to be any different from Microsoft giving away the source code to Word? (as mentioned by others?)
IntelligentDesigner said: And if they are not using their app to convert our XML gameproj data into source code that can be compiled by the xcode compiler, they are not compliant with section 3.3.1 of the developer agreement. That's what got Flash kicked - not supporting core Apple iOS features.
You've mentioned this several times and it does not sit well with me. Not because Gendai might be in violation, but because it sounds like a threat.
"If they don't put this feature in it must be because they're in violation."
The GS guys have already said that this is not an issue with them and Apple. People have continued to publish GS apps under the new terms and conditions, which I believe came into effect in April/May.
I don't think, therefore, that it can be used as a valid argument, and sounds like scaremongering to try and get people to back your views.
By all means, argue your case. But let's stick to the facts, eh?
As I said, I'm not trying to offend you, so I hope you don't take it that way.
@QS, Let's *PAUSE* a minute and discuss this logically:
Offended? - I don't take it that way at all. Perhaps as a veteran coder I have some more intimate insight into the workings. I understand that most GS'ers may not understand XCode or 4GL languages or how the terms of the Apple Contract must be complied with. Heck, I'd be surprised if most of them ever even tried programming - one of the reasons GameSalad is so good at what it does is that is completely eliminates people from having to think they are coding. (funny, though, they really are programming, but just in natural language terms free from the usual reams of support kaka.)
Like I have said, (maybe between the lines) Gendai's GameSalad will always be a great choice for creating the meat and potatoes of game apps, simply because otherwise, games are extremely wordy and touchy to code. This is why there is so much opportunity for bugs creeping in... Believe me, I have written 4GL apps and they are not at all easy. But they all pretty much work the same way: Limit the options, match the given parameters, spit out some spaghetti source code and compile it. This is likely why our friends at Gendai are loathe to add new features - even easy ones like in app purchasing, gamecenter, iAd support, and social networking.
Are you ready for this? Part of the problem of adding features like these, and others like realtime calls to the iOS keyboard, spin selectors, etc, would require -
Wait for it...
PAUSE !!!
because what happens to the game resources while the other functions are being handled? If they run in the background, the player dies, etc... Game Over!
But there is an area between what is offered by Gendai now, that might ensure the long range staying power of GameSalad, vis-a-vis compliance and Apple acceptance. This move would also free up Gendai's resources to concentrate on what they need to do most - make the tool reliable and fully functional at what we are paying for.
That move would require the user to add the functionality to source code, if they wanted to... this frees Gendai to work on the base product, which is designed to take your instructions and turn them into a finished app as far as they go. Nothing that I have ever suggested in the least would inhibit their ability to continue to do this, in fact it would give them the breathing room to do it better!
You asked 4 questions about "How does Gendai..." which I would like to answer here to the best of my ability.
1. Gendai's business is iron-clad protected by still requiring the editor to create the XML gameproj file that creates the XCode Source. I can't imagine anyone who'd think they could navigate the spaghetti code that a 4GL app maker spits out. Seriously, there would be no way to parse the source and replace the elements even if you wanted to make an exact clone of someone else's app. Remember the code you get each time is custom made for your XML specs.
2. Gendai's code would never be revealed. Their secret workings of the magic 4GL parser would never be divulged. I have never asked them to, only to supply us with our xcode source that we pay them to make from our XML gameproj file. There are no trade secrets, and no routines that a standard NDA would not cover.
3. As I mentioned -- the pro features are the GameSalad Logo on a splash, and that can be contractually required. And the other pro feature (tech support) -- well I think we can agree that there is no way they'd be providing that for free, would they?
4. The analogy of Microsoft Word just does not make sense, nor did it ever. As I have repeatedly said, they would not be giving away their source code -- we neither need nor want it. They'd just be giving us what must be the result of the 4GL creating XCode Source that is compiled with native API'S as required by 3.3.1
Mentioning the possibility that Apple may choose to enforce the letter of its contractual rights is not a threat that I am making. Please do not confuse the messenger with the message. Has Gendai ever guaranteed continued acceptance? Has Apple ever stated that either?
Can you interpret 3.3.1 in any other reasonable fashion? Flash got kicked because Adobe could not or would not deliver a product that supported the "Apple Feature Set". I think Apple is concerned with ensuring that customers that buy apps that are associated with Apple and run on Apple hardware have access to Apple features. Why do you think Apple created GameCenter? How about iAds?
InApp Purchasing is the one I think most valuable to us as developers... I envision an entire suite of applications each of which offers an opportunity to cross-sell our wares. If people like your starter app, they will likely purchase the full version, and enhancements or related apps from within your environment. It's hard to argue for a feature that better benefits the indie developer. We could even push sales for each other's products! Apple has a model for paying us to do that.
I want Gendai to do everything possible to ensure that GameSalad is here forever. Maybe that means some small changes to its business model. It's pretty clear that if they make the product support the Entire Apple iOS Experience" they will be thought of as valued partners. They already have the market cornered on creating the games themselves - look at what has been done,\.
I am only suggesting that there may be a better way to eat our cake and have it too.
You asked 4 questions about "How does Gendai..." which I would like to answer here to the best of my ability.
1. Gendai's business is iron-clad protected by still requiring the editor to create the XML gameproj file that creates the XCode Source. I can't imagine anyone who'd think they could navigate the spaghetti code that a 4GL app maker spits out. Seriously, there would be no way to parse the source and replace the elements even if you wanted to make an exact clone of someone else's app. Remember the code you get each time is custom made for your XML specs.
Cool - thanks for clearing that up.
IntelligentDesigner said: 2. Gendai's code would never be revealed. Their secrret workings of the magic 4GL parser would never be divulged. I have never asked them to, only to supply us with our xcode source that we pay them to make from our XML gameproj file. There are no trade secrets, and no routines that a standard NDA would not cover.
I understand this, but as someone else said, perhaps patterns could be found to enable reverse engineering? I don't know, I'm not technical! Also, you only have to look at what's been happening recently in terms of copyright infringement and terms of service infringements on the forum to see that some people just have no ethics.
I don't think Gendai has the manpower to check every game that gets converted. And if you have your game as xcode, and you're versed enough in the ways of a coder, what's to stop you adding your own splash screen? Your own links to your other games on the app store?
Indeed, what's to stop you making your game in GS, getting the source code and saying 'Actually, I prototyped the game in GS, and gave it to a coder to build from scratch. Therefore, I'm not liable under the NDA.'
There's no way Gendai could prove you made the game with or without GameSalad, unless they took you to court and you had to show them the code. Even then, how would you prove 100% how the game was made?
The onus would be on Gendai to prove you used GameSalad to make the finished product I think. It's a bit like the piracy defence, where if you have a wireless network it's almost impossible to irrefutably prove that you pirated something, just because 'anyone can use your network, and even secure networks can be hacked'.
Would that not make any NDA or agreement moot? Or at least tie Gendai up in legal battles that they really don't need to distract them?
Would you not have to therefore make receiving the source code for your game a pro feature (so that people adding their own links or splash screens wouldn't be an issue)? In which case, I suppose you would also be adding the value needed to justify the high price tag if you're then able to add GameCentre, iAds, multi-tasking etc etc to your app.
You do then run the risk of alienating the community by creating a huge divide. A divide which would mean that most GS users are actually unable to include the new features that you think Apple wants developers to include because they can't afford 2k.
So then maybe it should be a feature for everyone? But we come back to 'What will $2k get you?' Tech support?
I think it's a potential minefield... And apologies if I 'm not making sense, I've not slept today!
IntelligentDesigner said: 3. As I mentioned -- the pro features are the GameSalad Logo on a splash, and that can be contractually required. And the other pro feature (tech support) -- well I think we can agree that there is no way they'd be providing that for free, would they?
As I mentioned, 'contractually required' could possibly be circumvented. As could the other pro feature you've forgotten, which is URL links. I'm not saying we're all crooks. Of course we're not. But if people are already willing to butt heads with MiniClip, and NINTENDO ffs, then what's to stop them trying to get around NDAs and contracts? If people are having to ask 'Can I use the name Splinter Cell' in my app, and (from the early days of GS) are making soundboards from tv shows without permission, then I think we'd all be a bit naive to think that once someone's got around the NDAs and agreements, there wouldn't be a flood of other people trying to do the same.
IntelligentDesigner said: 4. The analogy of Microsoft Word just does not make sense, nor did it ever. As I have repeatedly said, they would not be giving away their source code -- we neither need nor want it. They'd just be giving us what must be the result of the 4GL creating XCode Source that is compiled with native API'S as required by 3.3.1
Ok, I'll let this one go as I don't know enough about it. I just thought it was interesting that it was brought up by two other people, and was interested in what you thought. Perhaps those that proposed the idea could better argue the point!
IntelligentDesigner said: Mentioning the possibility that Apple may choose to enforce the letter of its contractual rights is not a threat that I am making. Please do not confuse the messenger with the message. Has Gendai ever guaranteed continued acceptance? Has Apple ever stated that either?
I guess not. But by the same token Gendai has not said 'We are no longer accepted'. And Apple has not said 'You can't make games with GameSalad. Indeed, as I pointed out, it seems that it's business as usual. At least for now.
I think Apple is concerned with ensuring that customers that buy apps that are associated with Apple and run on Apple hardware have access to Apple features. Why do you think Apple created GameCenter? How about iAds?
But this suggests that ALL apps must comply and include these features. It doesn't say that in the terms and conditions. What if I don't have anything in my app that I want to offer as in-app purchases? What if I don't want to worry about all that, and just want to make a game then move onto the next one. Should I be forced to use in-app purchases because it's part of the Apple feature set? Or iAds? What if I don't *want* ads in my app? Again, should I be forced to include ads?? Indeed, Apple probably *can't* force developers to use these features. What if I want to use adMob instead? Or Openfeint? Apple surely has to allow some competition, otherwise it becomes a closed platform with a monopoly over certain aspects? I don't know, I'm not a businessman, or a lawyer! But I believe some people have already filed a case against Apple because of the change in terms of service.
IntelligentDesigner said: InApp Purchasing is the one I think most valuable to us as developers... I envision an entire suite of applications each of which offers an opportunity to cross-sell our wares. If people like your starter app, they will likely purchase the full version, and enhancements or related apps from within your environment. It's hard to argue for a feature that better benefits the indie developer. We could even push sales for each other's products! Apple has a model for paying us to do that.
Then why aren't all apps free with in-app purchases? Not everyone wants to do this. I'd argue It's an assumption of yours! Sure I'd like it as an option, but I might not always use it. In fact, I personally don't have ANY apps (to my knowledge) that use this feature. I prefer to pay for my game outright and 'own' it, rather than get a potentially 'gimped' version for free and then start paying small amounts here and there for 'added features'. In fact, I've never been a fan, as a consumer, of 'micro-transactions'. But that's just me. Perhaps as a developer it might be more attractive. And we can already cross promote stuff with the pro URL Forwarding behaviour.
IntelligentDesigner said: I want Gendai to do everything possible to ensure that GameSalad is here forever. Maybe that means some small changes to its business model. It's pretty clear that if they make the product support the Entire Apple iOS Experience" they will be thought of as valued partners. They already have the market cornered on creating the games themselves - look at what has been done,\.
I am only suggesting that there may be a better way to eat our cake and have it too.
I agree. I want GS to be around forever as well! I LOVE GameSalad, despite its flaws and limitations.
However, I feel that the 'small changes to its business model' is where you're coming unstuck. A change like this would be a major one, with great advantages to us as users. However, there are countless scenarios that could come up (I've mentioned just a few off the top of my head without any sleep) and these all have to be researched and thought out.
I'm happy that you're not offended by this. Part of my job as a game designer is to come up with cool ideas. And then you tell someone, and they shoot it down. Sometimes, *I* have to do the shooting down. Because however cool your idea is, it's never quite as simple to do as you think. You have to think EVERYTHING through, and even then, you might not spot problems till you've started to implement the idea!
So, thank you for your detailed response - I did read it all (I think you can tell!). I think in conclusion what I'm trying to say is:
It's not as simple as it seems, or they would have done it already!!!
@IntelligentDesigner I don't understand the suggestion that being a veteran coder makes this easier to understand. I believe a veteran coder should understand even more that this request is unreasonable.
As a veteran coder you know that releasing the code removes the point of a pro licence. You know that the code will allow other companies to gain an advantage by seeing the patterns created. You know it will be spaghetti code and completely unworkable for the majority of GameSalad users.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I fail to see how you can reasonably expect this from a non open source project.
For those wondering how they could use the patterns from the code to make their own GameSalad, heres an example.
I could create a project and add a single text field, generate the project and get the code. There we have it, I have the code for a text field. Now change the font, colour and location and regenerate the code. Then you know how the code works, and what you would need to change based on the settings in your own GameSalad software. Then Create a button and link it to another scene. Presto, you know how to have multiple scenes. I think you get the drift.
Their secret workings of the magic 4GL parser - easily made not very magical.
So far no one has said this (or i missed it) but if they gave me the source code that is created from my game here is what would happen - (I have released some apps on my own but am not good enough yet to create a full game) all I have to do ich change the splash image from powered by GameSalad to powered by Dragon2Studios (my company) and no one would know about GameSalad who actually put all the coding work into my game
if im reading correctly, your arguement for why they should release you the xcode is so that you can switch out the splash screen? Something they already offer to pro members at a subscription cost [which you are planning to circumvent]. That's one hell of a convincing argument...no wonder why anyone hasn't mentioned it :P
or if that's the arguement against it then QS mentioned it a short while ago, but yeah you are right that's probably the most common change that would happen
dragon2777 said: So far no one has said this (or i missed it) but if they gave me the source code that is created from my game here is what would happen - (I have released some apps on my own but am not good enough yet to create a full game) all I have to do ich change the splash image from powered by GameSalad to powered by Dragon2Studios (my company) and no one would know about GameSalad who actually put all the coding work into my game
Buy Pro, and if you reeallly need the source code; wait for Stencyl's iPhone exporter(coming this summer).
Comments
If there is no "XML gameproj" to "XCode Source" step then GameSalad is in violation of Apple Developer Contract provision 3.3.1. and it's just a matter of time before they get shut out, just like Flash did.
3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited).
Apple is enforcing this to do what it can to ensure that the features in software it distributes are not watered down and diluted to the lowest common denominator. If we do not provide valuable iOS features, we won't be able to use GameSalad to prepare apps for the AppStore.
This is exactly why Adobe Flash got banned. History has a way of repeating for those who do not learn from it.
GS creates our games in LUA and then converts the gameproj in xcode. therefore you cant edit it in xcode because its just a bunch of codes. They also dont release the xcode version because if someone did manage to edit the xcode file they could access to the pro features.
i think these are the main reasons they cant.
Im not an expert at it but that is what i have understood.
They could and should give us XCode Source, since that is the value they provide - using a 4GL to create working source code from user specs, in an automated fashion. If they gave us this instead on compiled code, we could easily make up for the shortcomings in the GS tool which does not fully support iDevice Development as is. Then they could concentrate on fixing the editor and making it the best most reliable code creator possible.
And if they are not using their app to convert our XML gameproj data into source code that can be compiled by the xcode compiler, they are not compliant with section 3.3.1 of the developer agreement. That's what got Flash kicked - not supporting core Apple iOS features.
However, and without wanting to cause offence: Are you ignoring the possible reasons given by others as to why this would be a bad idea? I certainly don't know the ins and outs of how the conversion works, but if you could address the issues raised then perhaps I'd understand better e.g.
How does Gendai protect their business?
How does Gendai protect their code?
How does Gendai stop people editing the code to get pro features working?
How do you see them giving us this ability to be any different from Microsoft giving away the source code to Word? (as mentioned by others?) You've mentioned this several times and it does not sit well with me. Not because Gendai might be in violation, but because it sounds like a threat.
"If they don't put this feature in it must be because they're in violation."
The GS guys have already said that this is not an issue with them and Apple. People have continued to publish GS apps under the new terms and conditions, which I believe came into effect in April/May.
I don't think, therefore, that it can be used as a valid argument, and sounds like scaremongering to try and get people to back your views.
By all means, argue your case. But let's stick to the facts, eh?
As I said, I'm not trying to offend you, so I hope you don't take it that way.
Cheers,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Offended? - I don't take it that way at all. Perhaps as a veteran coder I have some more intimate insight into the workings. I understand that most GS'ers may not understand XCode or 4GL languages or how the terms of the Apple Contract must be complied with. Heck, I'd be surprised if most of them ever even tried programming - one of the reasons GameSalad is so good at what it does is that is completely eliminates people from having to think they are coding. (funny, though, they really are programming, but just in natural language terms free from the usual reams of support kaka.)
Like I have said, (maybe between the lines) Gendai's GameSalad will always be a great choice for creating the meat and potatoes of game apps, simply because otherwise, games are extremely wordy and touchy to code. This is why there is so much opportunity for bugs creeping in... Believe me, I have written 4GL apps and they are not at all easy. But they all pretty much work the same way: Limit the options, match the given parameters, spit out some spaghetti source code and compile it. This is likely why our friends at Gendai are loathe to add new features - even easy ones like in app purchasing, gamecenter, iAd support, and social networking.
Are you ready for this? Part of the problem of adding features like these, and others like realtime calls to the iOS keyboard, spin selectors, etc, would require -
Wait for it...
PAUSE !!!
because what happens to the game resources while the other functions are being handled? If they run in the background, the player dies, etc... Game Over!
But there is an area between what is offered by Gendai now, that might ensure the long range staying power of GameSalad, vis-a-vis compliance and Apple acceptance. This move would also free up Gendai's resources to concentrate on what they need to do most - make the tool reliable and fully functional at what we are paying for.
That move would require the user to add the functionality to source code, if they wanted to... this frees Gendai to work on the base product, which is designed to take your instructions and turn them into a finished app as far as they go. Nothing that I have ever suggested in the least would inhibit their ability to continue to do this, in fact it would give them the breathing room to do it better!
You asked 4 questions about "How does Gendai..." which I would like to answer here to the best of my ability.
1. Gendai's business is iron-clad protected by still requiring the editor to create the XML gameproj file that creates the XCode Source. I can't imagine anyone who'd think they could navigate the spaghetti code that a 4GL app maker spits out. Seriously, there would be no way to parse the source and replace the elements even if you wanted to make an exact clone of someone else's app. Remember the code you get each time is custom made for your XML specs.
2. Gendai's code would never be revealed. Their secret workings of the magic 4GL parser would never be divulged. I have never asked them to, only to supply us with our xcode source that we pay them to make from our XML gameproj file. There are no trade secrets, and no routines that a standard NDA would not cover.
3. As I mentioned -- the pro features are the GameSalad Logo on a splash, and that can be contractually required. And the other pro feature (tech support) -- well I think we can agree that there is no way they'd be providing that for free, would they?
4. The analogy of Microsoft Word just does not make sense, nor did it ever. As I have repeatedly said, they would not be giving away their source code -- we neither need nor want it. They'd just be giving us what must be the result of the 4GL creating XCode Source that is compiled with native API'S as required by 3.3.1
Mentioning the possibility that Apple may choose to enforce the letter of its contractual rights is not a threat that I am making. Please do not confuse the messenger with the message. Has Gendai ever guaranteed continued acceptance? Has Apple ever stated that either?
Can you interpret 3.3.1 in any other reasonable fashion? Flash got kicked because Adobe could not or would not deliver a product that supported the "Apple Feature Set". I think Apple is concerned with ensuring that customers that buy apps that are associated with Apple and run on Apple hardware have access to Apple features. Why do you think Apple created GameCenter? How about iAds?
InApp Purchasing is the one I think most valuable to us as developers... I envision an entire suite of applications each of which offers an opportunity to cross-sell our wares. If people like your starter app, they will likely purchase the full version, and enhancements or related apps from within your environment. It's hard to argue for a feature that better benefits the indie developer. We could even push sales for each other's products! Apple has a model for paying us to do that.
I want Gendai to do everything possible to ensure that GameSalad is here forever. Maybe that means some small changes to its business model. It's pretty clear that if they make the product support the Entire Apple iOS Experience" they will be thought of as valued partners. They already have the market cornered on creating the games themselves - look at what has been done,\.
I am only suggesting that there may be a better way to eat our cake and have it too.
And it seems I've written a novel. A cookie to all that read it in its entirety!!!
Also, you only have to look at what's been happening recently in terms of copyright infringement and terms of service infringements on the forum to see that some people just have no ethics.
I don't think Gendai has the manpower to check every game that gets converted. And if you have your game as xcode, and you're versed enough in the ways of a coder, what's to stop you adding your own splash screen? Your own links to your other games on the app store?
Indeed, what's to stop you making your game in GS, getting the source code and saying 'Actually, I prototyped the game in GS, and gave it to a coder to build from scratch. Therefore, I'm not liable under the NDA.'
There's no way Gendai could prove you made the game with or without GameSalad, unless they took you to court and you had to show them the code. Even then, how would you prove 100% how the game was made?
The onus would be on Gendai to prove you used GameSalad to make the finished product I think. It's a bit like the piracy defence, where if you have a wireless network it's almost impossible to irrefutably prove that you pirated something, just because 'anyone can use your network, and even secure networks can be hacked'.
Would that not make any NDA or agreement moot? Or at least tie Gendai up in legal battles that they really don't need to distract them?
Would you not have to therefore make receiving the source code for your game a pro feature (so that people adding their own links or splash screens wouldn't be an issue)? In which case, I suppose you would also be adding the value needed to justify the high price tag if you're then able to add GameCentre, iAds, multi-tasking etc etc to your app.
You do then run the risk of alienating the community by creating a huge divide. A divide which would mean that most GS users are actually unable to include the new features that you think Apple wants developers to include because they can't afford 2k.
So then maybe it should be a feature for everyone? But we come back to 'What will $2k get you?' Tech support?
I think it's a potential minefield... And apologies if I 'm not making sense, I've not slept today! As I mentioned, 'contractually required' could possibly be circumvented. As could the other pro feature you've forgotten, which is URL links.
I'm not saying we're all crooks. Of course we're not. But if people are already willing to butt heads with MiniClip, and NINTENDO ffs, then what's to stop them trying to get around NDAs and contracts? If people are having to ask 'Can I use the name Splinter Cell' in my app, and (from the early days of GS) are making soundboards from tv shows without permission, then I think we'd all be a bit naive to think that once someone's got around the NDAs and agreements, there wouldn't be a flood of other people trying to do the same. Ok, I'll let this one go as I don't know enough about it. I just thought it was interesting that it was brought up by two other people, and was interested in what you thought. Perhaps those that proposed the idea could better argue the point! I guess not. But by the same token Gendai has not said 'We are no longer accepted'. And Apple has not said 'You can't make games with GameSalad.
Indeed, as I pointed out, it seems that it's business as usual. At least for now. But this suggests that ALL apps must comply and include these features. It doesn't say that in the terms and conditions.
What if I don't have anything in my app that I want to offer as in-app purchases? What if I don't want to worry about all that, and just want to make a game then move onto the next one. Should I be forced to use in-app purchases because it's part of the Apple feature set?
Or iAds? What if I don't *want* ads in my app? Again, should I be forced to include ads??
Indeed, Apple probably *can't* force developers to use these features. What if I want to use adMob instead? Or Openfeint? Apple surely has to allow some competition, otherwise it becomes a closed platform with a monopoly over certain aspects? I don't know, I'm not a businessman, or a lawyer! But I believe some people have already filed a case against Apple because of the change in terms of service. Then why aren't all apps free with in-app purchases? Not everyone wants to do this. I'd argue It's an assumption of yours! Sure I'd like it as an option, but I might not always use it. In fact, I personally don't have ANY apps (to my knowledge) that use this feature. I prefer to pay for my game outright and 'own' it, rather than get a potentially 'gimped' version for free and then start paying small amounts here and there for 'added features'.
In fact, I've never been a fan, as a consumer, of 'micro-transactions'. But that's just me. Perhaps as a developer it might be more attractive. And we can already cross promote stuff with the pro URL Forwarding behaviour. I agree. I want GS to be around forever as well! I LOVE GameSalad, despite its flaws and limitations.
However, I feel that the 'small changes to its business model' is where you're coming unstuck. A change like this would be a major one, with great advantages to us as users. However, there are countless scenarios that could come up (I've mentioned just a few off the top of my head without any sleep) and these all have to be researched and thought out.
I'm happy that you're not offended by this. Part of my job as a game designer is to come up with cool ideas. And then you tell someone, and they shoot it down. Sometimes, *I* have to do the shooting down. Because however cool your idea is, it's never quite as simple to do as you think. You have to think EVERYTHING through, and even then, you might not spot problems till you've started to implement the idea!
So, thank you for your detailed response - I did read it all (I think you can tell!). I think in conclusion what I'm trying to say is:
It's not as simple as it seems, or they would have done it already!!!
Cheers!
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
As a veteran coder you know that releasing the code removes the point of a pro licence. You know that the code will allow other companies to gain an advantage by seeing the patterns created. You know it will be spaghetti code and completely unworkable for the majority of GameSalad users.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I fail to see how you can reasonably expect this from a non open source project.
I could create a project and add a single text field, generate the project and get the code. There we have it, I have the code for a text field. Now change the font, colour and location and regenerate the code. Then you know how the code works, and what you would need to change based on the settings in your own GameSalad software. Then Create a button and link it to another scene. Presto, you know how to have multiple scenes. I think you get the drift.
Their secret workings of the magic 4GL parser - easily made not very magical.
or if that's the arguement against it then QS mentioned it a short while ago, but yeah you are right that's probably the most common change that would happen
The only reasons I could see this is if it was going open source to let the programmer community help them add functions for everyone.
Something like Stencyl where you can download everyone's behaviours in a database, or Game Maker that can release dlls to extend it's capacities.