Photics said: BOT was created with some realism. Just because I kill a bug on the street doesn't mean I should get full health. So, there was danger in wandering too far from home. I think two generations ago, players would keep playing until they figured it out. Now, players don't have the patience.
The feedback for this game is a bit bizarre to me. It was like I killed someone's puppy. I didn't think the game was that hard. I thought the controls were great.
I know why big game developers don't stray from the norm. It's too risky. Yet, as an independent developer, I thought that I could try some new things... like a new control scheme or a more challenging adventure. Nope, so 1.1 should have health drops, a jetpack and a thumbstick.
You keep on comparing the game to Zelda 1, and the thing is, that game HAD NO realism. If you killed a Wizzrobe, it could drop its heart, then you were to eat it and get health. Bosses from dungeons in that game dropped containers with hearts in them that you put in your inventory and suddenly got more health. Also, why did they give you health drops and heart containers? TO MAKE THE GAME POSSIBLE. EDIT - Also, the overworld of that game wasn't as big as BOT's, in fact, the overworld of that game wasn't hard. BOT is just very loosely based on Zelda 1.
butterbean: controls put off casual players [correct] Photics: players ought to fight through if they want it enough [true for some games] butterbean: not 99cent games Photics: BOT is different, a game for curious explorers who manage [just improvising here] butterbean: learning curve vs flawed controls arguement Photics: but will be tweaking it for the rest of em in an update
that last part still on?
don't have it in for butterbean *She is trying to help because she knows you have made a solid game although no doubt your slight lack of flexibility makes it more challenging but less fun for her as she questions whether or not to keep at it!
She is right if you want it to be as successful as we all do you must realise that the average player who doesn't know how you created the rules (and how to execute the actions they want) and also with no instruction will be pretty pissed each time they die without being able to do what should be possible in-game quite easily. if this small but crucial fix is on its way im sure a lot of customers would be happy and the game would spread by word of mouth much faster than currently because before i was confronted with the enemy and failed at my attempts to combat them i was really impressed with what i was seeing and also intrigued. but for 99cents the hassle is too much for some you realise they have many games in their pocket thesedays!
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
Photics I look forward to the new controls. I Somewhat like the Game. But…..I don't like that I can only use my sword if lined up perfectly. I actually like the controls for the most part except for that one part. I also don't like that there is no way so far to save any progress. Even when I go out and make it back to upgrade. When go out again and die I have to start over with nothing at 0. That makes me very mad and I shut it off for another time.
I hope you don't do your normal Blow off everything others say thing just because its not what you believe thing. If you take most of our advice you have a really good game on your hands that had a lot of potential. But you cannot just decide everyone else is wrong and do nothing about it. I know you say you are adding controls so this may be a little late being said but it still needs to be said.
Also, Mangaroo: I don't think the controls put off "casual" players, I think they put off "hardcore" gamers too, I consider myself a hardcore gamer, and have played many, many hardcore games.
@Photics: Thanks for the link, very interesting concept with suction cup joysticks.
tenrdrmer, i think everyone chipping in must have gotten to him by now !
butterbean, they are flawed in that they dont do what you want as games before it have...they do what photics wants but its not enough control/understanding over attacking for most of us..but yeah i think it does put off quite a few people...i admit i was trying to soften the blow..goodjob :P
really? I almost cried! Once I saw jonmulchay get the 500th I was determined to get the 600th post. Every couple minutes I would check the thread and then, I see photics had posted RIGHT before I did. Now I'm on to the 700th post!
Yes, from what I understand, Photics is working on some nice improvements to the game including a new control system, fiery orb is (more powerful?), fiery orb doesn't shut off when you leave the shop, and some health drops.
Photics said: Every one of those design elements was intentional. The game was supposed to be big. It's supposed to be hard to start out. Death in the game is supposed to have a penalty. As for the controls... one-touch combos... Shoot-shoot-stab! I don't see what the big problem is.
But hey... that's the feedback so I'm updating the game. Yeah, I'm not happy about updating my game because the game was intentionally made this way.
If Bot was intentionally designed this way, why change it? I could understand if you agreed with everybody that changes were necessary but you seem so reluctant, it begs the question.
JeffreyShimane said: If Bot was intentionally designed this way, why change it? I could understand if you agreed with everybody that changes were necessary but you seem so reluctant, it begs the question.
The changes I'm making aren't too drastic. The Jetpack is a nice addition, but it won't give too much of an edge in exploration and it was one of the original ideas for the game. (It wasn't free though. Jetpack fuel had to be purchased.)
If people want a thumbstick, that's OK. Players should have options. I'm cool with that. I'm almost done with adding it to the game too. I still have to add and test multi-touch logic though. Right now it only reacts to the first touch.
If people want health drops, that's OK too... that was also something I was considering for the original design, but I thought it made the game too easy. It seems that easy is good. I think it's better for a player to say, "Wow... that game was over too quick" rather than "I don't feel like playing." What's the point of all that content if most players don't bother to see it?
A tutorial and map... I haven't started this yet. It's tricky. I'm not sure how I'm going to do it. I have a general idea for the map, but I keep making ugly designs. It's the same for the tutorial.
The fiery orb, that's just minor changes. None of the power boosts really help with the survivor mission. The orb disappearing after shopping was old code. The shops used to be paused scenes, but that was too glitchy. I think I might have turned off the fiery orb because it seemed strange to bring a burning item into a shop. But a good rule of thumb is that fun trumps realism. Battlefield 1942 doesn't have guys losing turns because they caught dysentery.
It's funny because a lot of the comments happening here now also happened in my head a while ago. "Should the orb disappear?" "What about dropping hearts?" This project was a big challenge. I probably should have followed what Nintendo learned with the early days of the Wii... don't cater to the hardcore players. There's more opportunity with casual games.
So... why bother making the changes at all? It's because I do listen to feedback. Heh, I made debate about it, but that's not the same thing as ignoring it.
Wow, I usually hate virtual thumbsticks, but this is actually pretty good.
I think one of the big differences is that I went big! The thumbstick is 128x128 and the buttons are 64x64. It's incredible. I just went roaming around with the sword. I wasn't really trying to aim precisely. I was just swinging around. It was nice. This might radically change the way I create GameSalad games, because it was just so terrible before.
I haven't noticed any real lock-up issues. It's actually really smooth. I played around with all five touches and it worked as it should. I think those that didn't like the controls before might find this to be a good improvement.
Heh, I'm thinking BOT might work with one of those mini-flings too.
I have to redo the controller and button graphics because I quadrupled the size. 64x64 for the controller and 32x32 for the buttons are just too small. I'm using transparency and additive color to give the controls a decent look.
I'm using a different method than Codemonkey's approach. I'm a little surprised that it worked, because I've had so much trouble with thumbsticks before. I think it's so good that I might make it the default. The main problem that I see with this method is that the gun gets neglected. It was just so powerful to go running around with the sword.
Photics said: A tutorial and map... I haven't started this yet. It's tricky. I'm not sure how I'm going to do it. I have a general idea for the map, but I keep making ugly designs. It's the same for the tutorial.
Have you seen how QS did his for Kraken? that might help with this.
As for the controls, I would recommend (as others have pointed out), the same way QS did, either you give the option to the user to 'reduce' alpha or have it fade out after a couple of seconds.
For the tutorial, I was thinking that you could do small a small set of predefined actors that when you're near them, a little pop up comes up explaining what they are and what you're supposed to do; this way you don't have to create a full blown tutorial on how to use it and it will guide the user on how to play.
Joe (from Fire Maple Games) told me once that buttons seemed to work best on either 48x48 on the small side and no more than 96x96 on the big side for buttons for joysticks.
Also, will you consider having beta testers for 1.1? it might help a bit to avoid another 10 posts of "complains" with "good, but not quite there". How 'bout pull BOT and re-release as BOT X (x is for whatever extra you feel adding to it). This way, you'll get the new hype, new controls and perhaps get additional beta testers feedback; you'll have a much better polished game "for the rest of us".
stormystudio said: I'm holding out for the big one. . . . 1000th
haha.... yeah, we should totally bump this thread even after it dies down lol. Btw, I'm glad (Photics) that you are changing your game, it shows that you actually do care for the people playing your game and giving you constructive criticism (even though it took about 200 posts to do so). It looks like it could be a great game...
I'm not sure what the Friday morning update means, so I checked to see where BOT was listed. It's now the top four big boxes in New and Noteworthy - Role-Playing.
rdcube said: Joe (from Fire Maple Games) told me once that buttons seemed to work best on either 48x48 on the small side and no more than 96x96 on the big side for buttons for joysticks.
I made the buttons smaller and it's still comfortable. I went with 100 and 50. I'm not planning to add a slider though. There are three reasons... 1) Thumbs cover the artwork... 2) Alpha coloring doesn't look that great when brightened... 3) The players should be able to find the buttons immediately, so I don't think it's a good idea to hide them.
rdcube said: How 'bout pull BOT and re-release as BOT X (x is for whatever extra you feel adding to it). This way, you'll get the new hype, new controls and perhaps get additional beta testers feedback; you'll have a much better polished game "for the rest of us".
I think BOT is pretty close to where it should be. The update only needs a tutorial and a map. I'm planning to work on that today. Also, the ranking for BOT is not that bad.
So I'm working on the map and then I remembered an old movie with Robert De Niro and Robin Williams. I think it was called Awakenings. Basically, it's about these catatonic patients and the doctor who tries to help them. It's based on a true story...
So in the movie, there's this one scene where Robin Williams' character is trying to get Robert De Niro's character to walk across the floor. But for some strange reason, he just stops. Then one day the doctor realizes... the floor... the tiles stop... so the patient lost motivation to keep moving. The doctor and his assistant end up drawing on the floor to continue the pattern... and it works. The next day the patient keeps going all the way to the other side.
Heh, so as I create the little squares of the game map, I wonder if the same thing will happen here. Will these little colored squares help to motivate the players to explore? I think it might... it's almost primal. Without the squares, players don't know where to go. But with the squares, those dim boxes can become an obsession... in theory.
@Photics Wow, if you think about it, the squares would make the player think "This is where I'm supposed to go." When the squares end, they'll feel like they're far enough to chose their own paths. Bravo.
Joystick controls, world maps (that show where you've been, where you are, and where you haven't been but could go to), health drops, convenient saves/checkpoints... there's a reason why these are gaming standards.
I still have to do some testing... like if it will crash on an iPod Touch (Second Generation) and if all the squares actually work ...but basically it works off of the equipment menu.
Instead of the globe icon pointing to http://photics.com ...now it's an actual map. Pressing the globe activates the map. Pressing it again returns the original equipment menu screen.
Wow... high tech.
And since this is the start of a new page, here are some useful links...
Comments
EDIT - Also, the overworld of that game wasn't as big as BOT's, in fact, the overworld of that game wasn't hard. BOT is just very loosely based on Zelda 1.
Photics: players ought to fight through if they want it enough [true for some games]
butterbean: not 99cent games
Photics: BOT is different, a game for curious explorers who manage [just improvising here]
butterbean: learning curve vs flawed controls arguement
Photics: but will be tweaking it for the rest of em in an update
that last part still on?
don't have it in for butterbean *She is trying to help because she knows you have made a solid game although no doubt your slight lack of flexibility makes it more challenging but less fun for her as she questions whether or not to keep at it!
She is right if you want it to be as successful as we all do you must realise that the average player who doesn't know how you created the rules (and how to execute the actions they want) and also with no instruction will be pretty pissed each time they die without being able to do what should be possible in-game quite easily. if this small but crucial fix is on its way im sure a lot of customers would be happy and the game would spread by word of mouth much faster than currently because before i was confronted with the enemy and failed at my attempts to combat them i was really impressed with what i was seeing and also intrigued. but for 99cents the hassle is too much for some you realise they have many games in their pocket thesedays!
*thanks below :0)
Edit: No worries!
I hope you don't do your normal Blow off everything others say thing just because its not what you believe thing. If you take most of our advice you have a really good game on your hands that had a lot of potential. But you cannot just decide everyone else is wrong and do nothing about it. I know you say you are adding controls so this may be a little late being said but it still needs to be said.
@Photics: Thanks for the link, very interesting concept with suction cup joysticks.
butterbean, they are flawed in that they dont do what you want as games before it have...they do what photics wants but its not enough control/understanding over attacking for most of us..but yeah i think it does put off quite a few people...i admit i was trying to soften the blow..goodjob :P
I just spent much of the last two days making improvements to BOT.
Yes, from what I understand, Photics is working on some nice improvements to the game including a new control system, fiery orb is (more powerful?), fiery orb doesn't shut off when you leave the shop, and some health drops.
- Jeff
If people want a thumbstick, that's OK. Players should have options. I'm cool with that. I'm almost done with adding it to the game too. I still have to add and test multi-touch logic though. Right now it only reacts to the first touch.
If people want health drops, that's OK too... that was also something I was considering for the original design, but I thought it made the game too easy. It seems that easy is good. I think it's better for a player to say, "Wow... that game was over too quick" rather than "I don't feel like playing." What's the point of all that content if most players don't bother to see it?
A tutorial and map... I haven't started this yet. It's tricky. I'm not sure how I'm going to do it. I have a general idea for the map, but I keep making ugly designs. It's the same for the tutorial.
The fiery orb, that's just minor changes. None of the power boosts really help with the survivor mission. The orb disappearing after shopping was old code. The shops used to be paused scenes, but that was too glitchy. I think I might have turned off the fiery orb because it seemed strange to bring a burning item into a shop. But a good rule of thumb is that fun trumps realism. Battlefield 1942 doesn't have guys losing turns because they caught dysentery.
It's funny because a lot of the comments happening here now also happened in my head a while ago. "Should the orb disappear?" "What about dropping hearts?" This project was a big challenge. I probably should have followed what Nintendo learned with the early days of the Wii... don't cater to the hardcore players. There's more opportunity with casual games.
So... why bother making the changes at all? It's because I do listen to feedback. Heh, I made debate about it, but that's not the same thing as ignoring it.
I think one of the big differences is that I went big! The thumbstick is 128x128 and the buttons are 64x64. It's incredible. I just went roaming around with the sword. I wasn't really trying to aim precisely. I was just swinging around. It was nice. This might radically change the way I create GameSalad games, because it was just so terrible before.
I haven't noticed any real lock-up issues. It's actually really smooth. I played around with all five touches and it worked as it should. I think those that didn't like the controls before might find this to be a good improvement.
Heh, I'm thinking BOT might work with one of those mini-flings too.
I have to redo the controller and button graphics because I quadrupled the size. 64x64 for the controller and 32x32 for the buttons are just too small. I'm using transparency and additive color to give the controls a decent look.
I'm using a different method than Codemonkey's approach. I'm a little surprised that it worked, because I've had so much trouble with thumbsticks before. I think it's so good that I might make it the default. The main problem that I see with this method is that the gun gets neglected. It was just so powerful to go running around with the sword.
As for the controls, I would recommend (as others have pointed out), the same way QS did, either you give the option to the user to 'reduce' alpha or have it fade out after a couple of seconds.
For the tutorial, I was thinking that you could do small a small set of predefined actors that when you're near them, a little pop up comes up explaining what they are and what you're supposed to do; this way you don't have to create a full blown tutorial on how to use it and it will guide the user on how to play.
Joe (from Fire Maple Games) told me once that buttons seemed to work best on either 48x48 on the small side and no more than 96x96 on the big side for buttons for joysticks.
Also, will you consider having beta testers for 1.1? it might help a bit to avoid another 10 posts of "complains" with "good, but not quite there".
How 'bout pull BOT and re-release as BOT X (x is for whatever extra you feel adding to it).
This way, you'll get the new hype, new controls and perhaps get additional beta testers feedback; you'll have a much better polished game "for the rest of us".
Look forward to the new additions.
OB
I'm going to try and launch an update today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awakenings
So in the movie, there's this one scene where Robin Williams' character is trying to get Robert De Niro's character to walk across the floor. But for some strange reason, he just stops. Then one day the doctor realizes... the floor... the tiles stop... so the patient lost motivation to keep moving. The doctor and his assistant end up drawing on the floor to continue the pattern... and it works. The next day the patient keeps going all the way to the other side.
Heh, so as I create the little squares of the game map, I wonder if the same thing will happen here. Will these little colored squares help to motivate the players to explore? I think it might... it's almost primal. Without the squares, players don't know where to go. But with the squares, those dim boxes can become an obsession... in theory.
- Jeff
http://forums.toucharcade.com/showthread.php?p=1783039#post1783039
I still have to do some testing... like if it will crash on an iPod Touch (Second Generation) and if all the squares actually work ...but basically it works off of the equipment menu.
Instead of the globe icon pointing to http://photics.com ...now it's an actual map. Pressing the globe activates the map. Pressing it again returns the original equipment menu screen.
Wow... high tech.
And since this is the start of a new page, here are some useful links...
Official Photics.com page for BOT...
http://photics.com/bot
iTunes Link...
http://photics.com/buy-bot
(BUMP)