I'm Considering Giving GameSalad Another Shot...

2

Comments

  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    If anyone was wondering what I decided... I went back to the other software and fought with it. I'm glad that I did because now I have the control scheme I want with cool additional features.

    Is there a development tool that does 100% of what I want? No, but at least now I have the option to add customizations. Theoretically, I can go into Xcode and add AdMob support myself.

    So, what about GameSalad?

    I do have some nice projects lined up with GameSalad in mind. Some are on hold, simply waiting for AdMob support or HTTP Requests / Better HTML5 exporting. I think there's a good chance that I'll be working with the software again.
  • BahtiyarBahtiyar Member Posts: 29


    1 - Universal Binaries (I think this can dramatically improve sales/ranking)
    2 - Where's AdMob support? (I'm not crazy about Kiip or PlayHaven.)
    3 - HTTP Post/Get... to break out of the sandbox!
    4 - HTML5 (Exporting features should be better. Project Size lacks customization and hosting on GameSalad.com shouldn't be required.)
    Yeah it would be awesome if GS has those!
  • Four20Four20 Member Posts: 17
    edited May 2012
    @Photics - Just a warning, if you read the forum terms and conditions you will notice the banning of advertising other competitors. Your getting a little close in my opinion.
    Oh no! How dare someone mention a competitor to the community. :o

    Seems if a company was confident in their product, they wouldn't care about petty things like that. Especially one that punishes the community that uses their product.
    Is there a development tool that does 100% of what I want? No, but at least now I have the option to add customizations. Theoretically, I can go into Xcode and add AdMob support myself.

    So, what about GameSalad?
    This was something I was worried about when I first got here(im new here). I understand the reason for not REQUIRING you to learn xcode just to make your game(that's incredibly smart). . .but denying me the ability all together sounds craaaaazy.
  • jn2002dkjn2002dk Member Posts: 102
    @Photics - Just a warning, if you read the forum terms and conditions you will notice the banning of advertising other competitors. Your getting a little close in my opinion.
    Oh no! How dare someone mention a competitor to the community. :o

    Seems if a company was confident in their product, they wouldn't care about petty things like that. Especially one that punishes the community that uses their product.
    Is there a development tool that does 100% of what I want? No, but at least now I have the option to add customizations. Theoretically, I can go into Xcode and add AdMob support myself.

    So, what about GameSalad?
    This was something I was worried about when I first got here(im new here). I understand the reason for not REQUIRING you to learn xcode just to make your game(that's incredibly smart). . .but denying me the ability all together sounds craaaaazy.
    1. Mentioning a competitor and advertising it are two different things - That should be obvious to most people

    2. Different tools for different people - If you want code control it would likely come at the cost of ease of use since no company has unlimited resources and have to focus their efforts on some areas at the expense of others
  • Four20Four20 Member Posts: 17

    1. Mentioning a competitor and advertising it are two different things - That should be obvious to most people

    2. Different tools for different people - If you want code control it would likely come at the cost of ease of use since no company has unlimited resources and have to focus their efforts on some areas at the expense of others
    1 - is it really obvious? it seems like it would be up to the moderator's digression. some might be more strict about the issue than others. why else would it have been brought up in this thread unless someone feels the line was about to be stepped over.

    2 - sorry, it doesn't take 'unlimited resources' to enable your customer to manually edit some code. there is nothing physically stopping a company from 'giving you code control'. . .and in doing so, it DEFINITELY doesn't make the company sacrifice the 'easy of use' in any way what so ever.

    this 'balancing' logic sounds like you pulled it from an MMO you're playing where X class is better than Y class, but X class is worse than Z class. those need to be balanced for a reason. using that same logic for a software company is silly

    think about it. the code is there, the code is being written every time you drag and drop things around. the only thing that would stop GS from doing this would be to 'protect their investment' in some way or another. like they wouldn't want you to be able to remove the splash screen or create your own splash screen without purchasing their pro version. which makes sense. but why not give pro users the ability to edit the code then? I'm sure there's more they're protecting than just the splash screen. But I'm just giving you a logical reason why it is the way it is. Not saying 'it takes unlimited resources' lol
  • jonmulcahyjonmulcahy Member, Sous Chef Posts: 10,408
    1. as far as advertising a competitor, i follow a few rules, some by personal choice, some by directive. It's against the rules to discus pricing or provide links to a competitor. Personally, when you start to discuss how to do certain things in another product, that belongs on their forums. If you are just discussing what features are available, that is fine. I don't think anything has been said in this thread that crosses the line.

    2. I think you are right as far as adding code, i think it is to protect both their investment and their source code. i would love the ability to do some direct coding, i think it would be a whole lot faster, and I could do it from work :).
  • jn2002dkjn2002dk Member Posts: 102
    edited May 2012

    1. Mentioning a competitor and advertising it are two different things - That should be obvious to most people

    2. Different tools for different people - If you want code control it would likely come at the cost of ease of use since no company has unlimited resources and have to focus their efforts on some areas at the expense of others
    1 - is it really obvious? it seems like it would be up to the moderator's digression. some might be more strict about the issue than others. why else would it have been brought up in this thread unless someone feels the line was about to be stepped over.

    2 - sorry, it doesn't take 'unlimited resources' to enable your customer to manually edit some code. there is nothing physically stopping a company from 'giving you code control'. . .and in doing so, it DEFINITELY doesn't make the company sacrifice the 'easy of use' in any way what so ever.

    this 'balancing' logic sounds like you pulled it from an MMO you're playing where X class is better than Y class, but X class is worse than Z class. those need to be balanced for a reason. using that same logic for a software company is silly

    think about it. the code is there, the code is being written every time you drag and drop things around. the only thing that would stop GS from doing this would be to 'protect their investment' in some way or another. like they wouldn't want you to be able to remove the splash screen or create your own splash screen without purchasing their pro version. which makes sense. but why not give pro users the ability to edit the code then? I'm sure there's more they're protecting than just the splash screen. But I'm just giving you a logical reason why it is the way it is. Not saying 'it takes unlimited resources' lol
    Where did i say it required unlimited resources? And what's with the fallacious mmo comparison?

    My response about the obvious difference between debating something and advertising it was directed at your unwarranted cheap use of sarcasm which indicated, falsely, that it's against the rules to even mention a competitor

    Honestly, i feel like i'm arguing with a child here

    When the focus is code free game making any resources not applied to this are resources that could have been used to make the code free part even better. It really is very simple...
    Notice how that's NOT saying it requires unlimited resources but resources used here could for example delay the LUA free update - something a lot of people really want

    As for your logical reason...well you may want to look up the definition of logic because your reason was nothing but speculation and assumption without having any insights to the ins and outs of how Gamesalad works behind the scenes. It is perfectly possible they could provide custom code without giving away source code. How you arrived at your logical conclusion i have no idea. The point is though that any new feature, no matter how small, takes time which could be spend doing something else

    Geez
  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    Oh no! How dare someone mention a competitor to the community. :o
    I don't write what I write to bash GameSalad. Instead, it's to help move the software forward. If I didn't like GameSalad, I wouldn't be here. I consider myself fair minded, which is why I like to point out where GameSalad does well.

    The fact that this discussion exists... and is continuing... shows that GameSalad is interested in what the community has to say. More importantly, GameSalad does improve their software based on community feedback.

    Does that mean we'll get the ability to add Xcode customizations anytime soon? I doubt it, which is why I focused on the four points. They're not hard to achieve, technologically anyway.

    The reason why many of us are here is because we don't want to code.
  • jn2002dkjn2002dk Member Posts: 102
    Oh no! How dare someone mention a competitor to the community. :o
    I don't write what I write to bash GameSalad. Instead, it's to help move the software forward. If I didn't like GameSalad, I wouldn't be here. I consider myself fair minded, which is why I like to point out where GameSalad does well.

    The fact that this discussion exists... and is continuing... shows that GameSalad is interested in what the community has to say. More importantly, GameSalad does improve their software based on community feedback.

    Does that mean we'll get the ability to add Xcode customizations anytime soon? I doubt it, which is why I focused on the four points. They're not hard to achieve, technologically anyway.

    The reason why many of us are here is because we don't want to code.
    Well said and for the record i think your reflections mirrors the internal debate many of us goes through when settling on a tool. I know i did, actually a google search while researching this very subject brought me to your blog post:)

    Like others mentioned in this topic at the end of the day there is no tool which does everything you want how you want it. I should know, i've tried everything out there but in the end i decided to pay for Gamesalad pro because it had the most of the features i needed but there is always room for improvement

  • bazookaBenbazookaBen Member Posts: 318
    Stencyl looks complicated. It'll take too much time learn the engine and deal with frustrations.

    on the flip side, Stencyl does open up doors to lucrative sponsorships from established Flash game portals.
  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    edited May 2012
    Stencyl looks complicated. It'll take too much time learn the engine and deal with frustrations.

    on the flip side, Stencyl does open up doors to lucrative sponsorships from established Flash game portals.
    Well, I am working on a textbook to make it easier to learn Stencyl. I've identified problem areas that would be troubling for a beginner. Plus, the software is really bleeding edge. When starting out, it was hard for me to know the difference between a bug and a lack of understanding on my part.

    I was a big hater of Flash about two years ago, but Stencyl helped to change that. Stencyl and GameSalad are on a collision course. Yet, I don't want to choose one over the other. I like that I have options now. It's really not that expensive to maintain two subscriptions. The problem with GameSalad is that I haven't seen the catalyst... a new feature that excites me so much that it makes GameSalad a priority.

    Of the four listed here, which would excite me the most...

    Universal Binaries — This alone is not a catalyst for me. It would be nice to update my old GameSalad apps as Universal ones, but I think this feature would be more beneficial with the launch of a brand new app. I list Universal Binaries because it's pretty much a no-brainer. With the way the GameSalad camera works, this feature shouldn't be delayed. And with the rumor of a new iPhone screen ratio — or all the crazy Android sizes — GameSalad apps should be more fluid. It would cut down development time if there was just two sizes... landscape or portrait.

    AdMob — I think that the potential here is exciting. I know what it's like on the Android market. It's harder to sell paid apps, but free apps with ads can be successful. Plus, with House Ads, I could promote other projects like my books or sound effects. Unfortunately, iAds hasn't been as successful as AdMob has been for me, so this should help my iOS apps too.

    HTTP Requests — I'm planning another project that could be beneficial... but not just me. Other developers in this community could benefit too! Unfortunately, it won't work without the ability to send and receive data from a website.

    Professional HTML5 exporting — GameSalad can be about more than just games. It could be a powerful web development tool. Right now, GameSalad has been in a few classrooms. But if GameSalad became a replacement for Flash, it could make an explosion in the classroom. It could also make a big impression in the business world, as people without a strong knowledge of web development could make their own interactive websites. Schools and Businesses pay for the Adobe Creative Suite. What if GameSalad was considered a standard HTML5 development tool, like Photoshop is for image editing? Better HTML5 exporting is a step in that direction.
  • JustMe74JustMe74 Member, PRO Posts: 542
    Can you post a link to a game in the app store you developed with Stencyl and one you developed with Gamesalad? It would be interesting to see the output from someone familiar with both.
  • beefy_clyrobeefy_clyro Member Posts: 5,390
    Can you post a link to a game in the app store you developed with Stencyl and one you developed with Gamesalad? It would be interesting to see the output from someone familiar with both.
    Photics hasn't managed to Publish a game with Stencyl yet, I believe he has been learning and working on his current game for around 6 months now.

  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    Photics hasn't managed to Publish a game with Stencyl yet, I believe he has been learning and working on his current game for around 6 months now.
    It's true that I haven't published a complete game with Stencyl. Compared to GameSalad, my first game was completed in about three weeks.

    However, I haven't been working on one game for six months straight. First, I tried to port Arcading. I got close...

    http://photics.com/games/arcading

    ...but little things kept messing me up. Later, I tried to port Annoyed Tomatoes. Again, that didn't work out as I expected. So, instead of trying to port my GameSalad projects, I thought that I'd start with a new project.

    Basically, I have much of the technical stuff figured out. What I don't have is the artwork. I haven't been productive in the last few days, as I've been wondering if I should simply hire an artist or create the artwork myself.

    That's where this thread started. I was getting frustrated with Stencyl. I thought about going back to GameSalad to make this new game, but I was reminded of the issues that lead me to Stencyl in the first place. Now, my new game is at a level where it would be tricky to recreate with GameSalad. I'm using multiple and custom collision shapes on a single actor. GameSalad doesn't do that.

    I have an idea on how I could mimic the effect with GameSalad, but it goes back to my four points. I believe that my game will be more successful with Universal Binaries, the possibility of AdMob (I might have to fight with Xcode), HTTP Requests and great web exporting options.
  • EatingMyHatEatingMyHat Member Posts: 1,246
    edited May 2012
    1. as far as advertising a competitor, i follow a few rules, some by personal choice, some by directive.
    @jonmulcahy the problem is that rules need to be clear and known. The fact that things happens without clear reason or explanation is very discouraging in a community. You should not have personal choice, there should be clear guidelines and the chefs duty is to keep the forum within the guidelines. You should always apply your common sense and judgment, but it is different from following rules by personal choice.

    Just to be clear, I do not have a problem following the rules, any rule. As long as they are clear and known.
  • tenrdrmertenrdrmer Member, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-Chef Posts: 9,934
    @EatingMyHat this is not the thread for that. If you have concerns about the forums moderation please contact @saladstraightshooter and let him know your concerns. Otherwise photics has not broken ant rules or really even came close as one person suggested. Therefore you need to leave his thread to his subject.

    Thanks
  • jonmulcahyjonmulcahy Member, Sous Chef Posts: 10,408
    @eatingmyhat what I meant was like this. Talk about prIcing is not allowed. When you start advertising by posting YouTube videos of how to use the product( which has happened), that is not explicitly stated, but obviously has no place here.

    Anyways, Photics you should give gs another go once the lua free engine comes out, I'll give Bot a great speed boost.
  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    Photics you should give gs another go once the lua free engine comes out
    BOT is slightly broken now. A recent update ruined my scene fades. I thought about launching the game on Android, but I don't know if it would be any better than on iOS. I find that advertisement based games perform better than paid apps on Android.

    With AdMob, it might be worth the effort. But with Kiip and PlayHaven, I don't know if it's worth it.

    I am still watching out for the lua free version of GameSalad. It is exciting. Better loading times would improve BOT... as would Game Center Achievements.

    Although... even just launching the game as a way to promote the textbook could be beneficial.
  • EatingMyHatEatingMyHat Member Posts: 1,246
    @jonmulcahy just to be clear, I don't have an issue with how you do your job, just didn't agree with your comment.
    Anyways, Photics you should give gs another go once the lua free engine comes out, I'll give Bot a great speed boost.
    I don't think the Lua free will address Photics list of demands (AdMob, HTTP Requests, Professional HTML5 exporting). Frankly his ultra long discussions and posts are missed, but I rather see his development logs rather than another discussion on "what is missing in GS", "GS can't do that" type of post (there are many of those going on right now).

    @Photics I think that GS on Windows is a great opportunity for your Textbook, but promoting a book on a platform that is not good enough for you to publish your games is a bit problematic. As an author you have to establish your credibility by putting your games out there and raising the bar for GS games in similar ways that other great GS games did. Missing features requests? there is a sticky for that.

    Cheers,
    GR
  • theCodeMonsterstheCodeMonsters Member Posts: 359
    edited May 2012
    I agree with @EatingMyHat we need to realize that GS is still in beta. Even though GS sells it like a finished product. Take Siri for example with apple. Siri is in beta, but Apple sells it like a finished product, but once Siri is out of beta, I'm sure there will be many features that will come.


    But I also agree with everything that @Photics said, Honestly, some of the features that take GS the longest time to implement, (take Game Center for example), it took me less then 24 hours to learn it and implement it. Not to mention within that same 24 hours I was able to implement the Multiplayer portion too.


    These are VERY simple API's Apple worked VERY hard to make it that way. I'm positive that the reason why GS doesn't have the features yet is for marketing reasons. Which can make the users very irritated. Not to mention Apple has 3 events where they release their work, with GS it's unpredictable when the new features will come out.
  • EatingMyHatEatingMyHat Member Posts: 1,246
    @theCodeMonsters I think that sometimes learning an API and start using it in Xcode is one thing, packaging the API in a way that non-coder will be able to use it in the simplest of ways is another.
  • JohnPapiomitisJohnPapiomitis Member Posts: 6,256
    I agree with @EatingMyHat we need to realize that GS is still in beta. Even though GS sells it like a finished product. Take Siri for example with apple. Siri is in beta, but Apple sells it like a finished product, but once Siri is out of beta, I'm sure there will be many features that will come.


    But I also agree with everything that @Photics said, Honestly, some of the features that take GS the longest time to implement, (take Game Center for example), it took me less then 24 hours to learn it and implement it. Not to mention within that same 24 hours I was able to implement the Multiplayer portion too.


    These are VERY simple API's Apple worked VERY hard to make it that way. I'm positive that the reason why GS doesn't have the features yet is for marketing reasons. Which can make the users very irritated. Not to mention Apple has 3 events where they release their work, with GS it's unpredictable when the new features will come out.
    Implementing gamecenter into a xcode project your working on, and impleting gamecenter into a drag and drop game engine where your able to just drag and drop it and enter the info in on the fly are 2 entirely different things.

    unless you have personaly built an entire drag and drop engine and have implemented it how gamesalad has there no way to compare the two.
  • theCodeMonsterstheCodeMonsters Member Posts: 359
    edited May 2012
    @JohnPapiomitis Listen I get what your saying, I know where your coming from but trust me, it's the same code, and EVEN IF, if I did it in less than 24 hours, then how does it take them 2+ YEARS to put it in their engine if I did it in 24 hours with features they still don't have in yet. I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure that it's for marketing. Trust me, I'm giving my entire life to this stuff.
  • JohnPapiomitisJohnPapiomitis Member Posts: 6,256
    @JohnPapiomitis Listen I get what your saying, I know where your coming from but trust me, it's the same code, and EVEN IF, if I did it in less than 24 hours, then how does it take them 2+ YEARS to put it in their engine if I did it in 24 hours with features they still don't have in yet. I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty sure that it's for marketing. Trust me, I'm giving my entire life to this stuff.
    Its more code then just calling on the gamecenter api and such. It has to communicate with there server when publishing, link it to the behavior in the engine, create the behavior block, write the additional stuff to enter your stuff into the behavior directly, add to the xml directory in the game project file and all that.

    I am also a computer science major. Not trying to say it justifies 2 years by any means, but you and i both know its more then typing in the code that you would into a normal xcode project.
  • theCodeMonsterstheCodeMonsters Member Posts: 359
    @JohnPapiomitis That's Awesome that your in Computer Science, but I have to disagree, it could be much more simple then that, but we'll never know unless GS releases their Engine.
  • beefy_clyrobeefy_clyro Member Posts: 5,390
    And back on topic ... ;)

    @Photics ah ok i see. Are you now close (minus art) to finishing your 1st Stencyl game then? Are there any 'top' games to come out of the engine yet? I know its new but when i looked I hadn't seen anything that comes close to some of the games i've seen from GS. If there are any, probably pm or something as it could be seen as advertising in fairness.
  • LeonardDeveloperLeonardDeveloper Member Posts: 4,630
    @thecodemonsters
    How can you disagree?; As John said its more than just code snippets in Xcode, They also have to reformat their server to accept that code which then is more HTML, They also have program yet another HTML web app blocking non pro users from these ads, It takes a lot longer than 24hrs,
  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    edited May 2012
    ah ok i see. Are you now close (minus art) to finishing your 1st Stencyl game then?
    I don't know... now I'm starting to wonder if I should work on some GameSalad projects. HA! I think my new game is a great idea, so I don't want to rush it.
    Are there any 'top' games to come out of the engine yet?
    I thought Barbarium was pretty good. I don't know if there have been any huge success stories. Although, the biggest success story I've seen around here is Fire Maple Games... which turned into a Corona success story. Did any GameSalad games do better than Bumps?

    I don't really factor that into my decision though. If there aren't any Stencyl success stories, then I can look forward to maybe being the first.
    How can you disagree?; As John said its more than just code snippets in Xcode, They also have to reformat their server to accept that code which then is more HTML, They also have program yet another HTML web app blocking non pro users from these ads, It takes a lot longer than 24hrs,
    I realize that what it takes for me to add AdMob code to an app is not the same level of work required in adding AdMob to GameSalad. However, I don't think it should take that long. It's similar to iAds.
  • LeonardDeveloperLeonardDeveloper Member Posts: 4,630
    @photics
    Yeah, It deffinately shouldn't take a year, But They're are a lot more important things being worked on now, I would say it easily takes all of the dev team to work on the lua free engine, Besides; GS seem to have held back on admob for a while, Maybe they're not interested in adding it, It all depends
  • PhoticsPhotics Member Posts: 4,172
    GS seem to have held back on admob for a while, Maybe they're not interested in adding it
    I figure that Universal Binaries will make it into GameSalad eventually, but what about the other three features? I don't know if it's a busy technical schedule or if GameSalad is simply not interested in adding such features.

    With features like GameSalad on Windows, it feels like GameSalad is on the side of the developer. With features like Kiip and PlayHaven, it feels like the developer is secondary.

    With Stencyl, it's been a hard fight to get the software to do what I want. But now that I've actually done that, I have more freedom. Because I can code, I can add my own customizations.

    A fifth feature should be on the list... a GameSalad API... what if we could write our own behaviors? What if GameSalad used the strength of this community to help with development? I didn't know that John Papiomitis was a computer science major.

Sign In or Register to comment.