I personally want this out of the software as well. GameSalad should be more of an engine. Engines don't include this sort of stuff. And PRO users should absolutely be able to opt out.
Here's a bit of follow-up on this issue. I presented an early version of the project to "The Client". The response to my work so far was quite favorable and the feedback was very good. The problem was picking a platform.
I'm not here to highlight your competitors. But when I explained the tracking issue, the competitor was chosen as the game creation software. So, that clearly highlights some issues...
-- Even anonymized tracking is an issue. -- Not everyone is doing the tracking -- It was a missed opportunity for GameSalad
GameSalad would have made short work of this project. But unfortunately, this tracking issue is a problem. I was thinking of writing a letter to the GameSalad CEO and the educational team to better explain the details of this project. I'm not sure if it would make a difference though, so I've been doing this project the hard way.
What's unfortunate is that I still like GameSalad, and there's been great progress in recent months, but this issue is a project killer... not just for the client, but my own projects too. While not as dramatic as the GameSalad Direct fiasco, the end result is the same. It shoos GameSalad developers away to competitors.
Tracking isn't happening in 3.0 yet. If it does happen, I'll provide details of how to remove it (it'll probably be good enough to blank out a single file) - you won't need to dig into Xcode to do it.
That's the founder of Stencyl saying tracking isn't happening in Stencyl 3.0... and can be removed if it does. Is that sufficient evidence?
Additionally, I use programs like Hype and Artisteer. They're not exact competitors to GameSalad, but I feel they are similar applications. I looked at the code that Hype creates and I didn't see anything that would leak user data. I looked at Artisteer and I did see some issues. The template created from Artisteer was linking to off-site files... but I could easily change that because I could see and edit the code.
I didn't check to see what Unity or GameMaker are doing, but I did think about emailing Carlos Icaza to find out more about Corona. However, they have a post already...
The way to turn this data collection off is by adding the following code to your app’s config.lua file:
application = { launchPad = false, }
So, of the two GameSalad competitors that I checked, BOTH have options to remove the tracking.
I realize that collecting data on apps lets you know what platforms to support and it also lets you know which GameSalad games are successful. However, a lot of that data is already out there. Here are two examples...
There are certain scenarios where GameSalad collecting app data would be reasonable... like if there was a cross-platform multiplayer option. That just makes sense. How else would you match the players? But if I'm just making something like a storybook app for young kids, the option of having ZERO DATA leaving the app seems reasonable. The developer should have the option to determine what's appropriate and what meets the requirements of the project... that's truly Pro.
As some of you already know, a game of mine 'Escape from the Dead' was featured as Amazon Free App of the Day about a week ago.
Due to the permissions/ tracking I was crucified in reviews - accused of shipping spyware and adware in my game. So I have to agree with Photics on this one.
I certainly wouldn't do a Android promotion again with a Gamesalad created game, and I'd strongly recommend that no one else does either. It's a great shame for everyone really.
Due to the permissions/ tracking I was crucified in reviews - accused of shipping spyware and adware in my game. So I have to agree with Photics on this one.
I certainly wouldn't do a Android promotion again with a Gamesalad created game, and I'd strongly recommend that no one else does either. It's a great shame for everyone really.
Wow, that's bad news. It also shows that this issue matters. Something that can result in the loss of customers — for both GameSalad and Developers — is not harmless tracking.
It's not metrics or tracking it's meta data which can be used for metrics or tracking - Gamesalad this (I see, you see) is not an important issue for us - your issue (I see) is with Norton, the Play store, and the 25 other Android stores that is killing apps made with Gamesalad in the Android Market - deal with that first. Pandy to one clients needs or have a whole development platform in ruins? Privacy? Well, this issue I hear about here everyday in New Zealand. The GCSB bill. Kim Dotcom. Spying. Tapping. Recording. Reading texts, emails. It's SPY vs SPY out here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. Trying to sound like a mad conspiracy theorist.
P.S. Trying to sound like a mad conspiracy theorist.
It's getting pretty strange out there in the world, which is why I don't understand why GameSalad is choosing to be on the awkward side of this issue. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff. In such a highly competitive market, even the slightest issue can cause an app to fail.
Historically, if GameSalad was given a chance, they would eventually see the error of their ways and do the right thing. I'm surprised that didn't happen here. It's disappointing too, because the software was starting to get interesting again.
It looks like I'm going to have to finish this project the hard way.
The kinds of stats that we track are anonymous and are used to help us understand how users interact with our software and what devices and OS support we need to provide.
So this doesn't really explain exactly what you get. Are you saying that you receive data like "How much a GS apps as a whole are used and on what devices?" And then what do you mean by "how"? It just seems to be a rather vague answer, is it possible for you to give us a bit more info on what is actually recorded?
Thanks - Thomas
they can tell us whatever they want....but remember "big businesses never tell the truth"
The kinds of stats that we track are anonymous and are used to help us understand how users interact with our software and what devices and OS support we need to provide.
So this doesn't really explain exactly what you get. Are you saying that you receive data like "How much a GS apps as a whole are used and on what devices?" And then what do you mean by "how"? It just seems to be a rather vague answer, is it possible for you to give us a bit more info on what is actually recorded?
Thanks - Thomas
they can tell us whatever they want....but remember "big businesses never tell the truth"
I wouldn't say that, but it is true that they are very reluctant to reveal more than is absolutely necessary about anything on the inside.
Another plus one for the Pro option to op out. I don't think it would affect GS too severely, as some people wouldn't even bother to uncheck the box, and Pro is already a fraction of the community. - Thomas
While I understand the need for core analytics from the perspective of reporting to investors, I also find it a shame not to offer flurry to pro users. It really makes it impossible to tune your game based on user interaction post launch; I'm guessing many members aren't aware of how amazing flurry can be for making your games better based on user data.
Example - if players never go to your shop in game, you can see that in flurry and move button or access to new area and see if anyone clicks it etc. You can also see how long a user plays or stays in the app, even specific scenes. Without this level of analytics you are really just flying blind.
So I counter the suggestion of being able to opt out in favor of giving us the ability to use flurry too as developers.
What I don't get is why people think there's something nefarious going on. I understand you want to not appear like your doing something bad to your users and clients so, yes an opt out would be nice, but there's nothing nefarious about standard stat collecting as long as that's all it is.
I understand the antivirus used on android picks up on it and think its evil but doesn't distinguish on malicious vs meta (or maybe it does but doesn't matter to it). Sad we have to live in a paranoid world though and sad that there are those out there that do bad things with their apps which hurts us all. World we live in I guess.
Just stumbled across this, is this really that concerning that members won't use GS? My only question is, why does GS need to collect data. How can that help them. Is so they now what to o when they release thier games cause i seem to fail why data is needed to improve an engine? But if this is going for years then thre isn't too much of an issue?
Gamesalad collects this data for many reasons I would guess, but mostly to show metrics to investors or to trend growth.
Members could use it to make thier games better as they could learn where the game needs to be improved in order to extend play times etc. Without analytics gamesalad is more of a toy for hobbyists then a legitimate development software IMO.
Look how many games from the "other" sdks have been in the top 100 grossing in the last year. I have never noticed a GS game there, and I would bet it's because Devs don't know where to tune their games in order to improve average play times. This is so crucial for freemium or IAP models.
Would probably be pretty hard for GS to do deals with ad partners without metrics too.
What I don't get is why people think there's something nefarious going on.
Well, it doesn't really matter if it's nefarious. I like the people at GameSalad. I'm not thinking that they're bad people. The problem is that this third-party tracking creates issues. It can hurt sales. It can hurt the reputation of the developer.
Or in my situation, it makes GameSalad a nonstarter.
Issue #1 was resolved (Universal Binaries are now available.)
Issue #2 is irrelevant (I don't want advertisements in my apps.)
Issue #3 is still a problem, but not an issue for this project.
Issue #4 is supposedly being resolved, as HTML5 exporting is supposed to get better.
The problems were getting fixed or were no longer problems, but then the tracking issue showed up. This issue seems to be the only reason that I haven't already renewed my GameSalad subscription.
So while I'm not assuming that GameSalad has sinister intentions, I do think that their decision to force tracking (even if it's anonymized data) is a bad decision. I don't see why they need tracking. The apps are not being created locally on the developer's computer, so they know what's being made with GameSalad. What is the additional information that they're hunting for?
Is it really worth losing subscribers over this issue?
If they need general statistics for software development, that's what the free version of GameSalad is for. But Pro, that should have meaning. If the software is truly Pro, it should meet the needs of professionals.
Agree with @Photics .. tracking with no way to opt-out is a bit iffy for me. On my Mac I can use adblock, a hosts file, a VPN, etc. With this, I have no options. I actually had a Kindle kid's app rejected last year because I selected that it doesn't connect to the Internet, now I know why it was rejected
There's nothing wrong with approaching @Codewizard or @SF about your concerns, however. They may offer a perspective on this that may give more insight or further clarify our position one way or the other.
I sent an email to @sf but I didn't sent it to @codewizard. (It's not really a technical issue.) I didn't get a reply. So maybe my message was blocked by an aggressive SPAM blocker. Maybe GameSalad has nothing more to say on this issue.
It seems like it's the latter, because I don't see how their position is defensible. Forcing tracking weakens the value of a Pro Subscription and it allows GameSalad competitors to gain ground.
Instead of renewing my GameSalad subscription, I've been working with different software. I still like GameSalad though, which is why I've written a lot on this topic. Plus, it's confusing to me... is anonymous User Data > $299 Subscription?
But unfortunately, GameSalad doesn't seem to want to budge on this one, so I have to keep grinding away with different software. It's been quite a learning experience, but it's disappointing to see GameSalad grow so much and then fumble so badly.
We're looking forward to providing an opt-out mechanism for you to use. Sounds like a good idea. We're all on board. When it'll be done is another matter. It's on the list and we'll get to it as we can. Priorities, priorities!
We're also preparing some information about the kinds of data we are tracking. This'll be useful for you to better understand what's going on. We're committed to complying with COPA regulations, of course. We'll post more on this soon.
@CodeWizard when you get around to doing this can you also consider amongst yourselves if any of this data could be made available to us please, i.e. an option to view some basic analytics with our own apps. Basic analytics that can be built on/improved overtime.
I appreciate that it could be a big task, but I'm sure it's one that many of us would benefit from, and those that don't want it can just opt out.
@kevincross they've said before they would like to provide us with a high level view of the metrics (x number of iphone 4s, x number of ipad minis). I believe they were working on a sort of dashboard for pro users, but there are more important things taking priority
Thanks for confirming @jonmulcahy. I'd be interested in analytics like how long people play an app and other bits like that (if they're already collecting it) but I do understand that there are more impressing issues to work through before that.
It'll be a nice thing to have in the future, or at least have a behavior added that would allow us to plug in our own analytics service.
I would think the firestorm Microsoft had over the XBox One is proof enough that the public or end users want no sort of tracking or even the thought it might be happening if paranoia can kill a large companies console, it can certainly hurt a indie game developer with negative reviews in short time.
We're looking forward to providing an opt-out mechanism for you to use. Sounds like a good idea. We're all on board. When it'll be done is another matter. It's on the list and we'll get to it as we can. Priorities, priorities!
Hey @CodeWizard, that's good news. For my projects, it was almost game over for GameSalad. Now, there's something to look forward to.
Comments
I'm not here to highlight your competitors. But when I explained the tracking issue, the competitor was chosen as the game creation software. So, that clearly highlights some issues...
-- Even anonymized tracking is an issue.
-- Not everyone is doing the tracking
-- It was a missed opportunity for GameSalad
GameSalad would have made short work of this project. But unfortunately, this tracking issue is a problem. I was thinking of writing a letter to the GameSalad CEO and the educational team to better explain the details of this project. I'm not sure if it would make a difference though, so I've been doing this project the hard way.
What's unfortunate is that I still like GameSalad, and there's been great progress in recent months, but this issue is a project killer... not just for the client, but my own projects too. While not as dramatic as the GameSalad Direct fiasco, the end result is the same. It shoos GameSalad developers away to competitors.
http://community.stencyl.com/index.php/topic,11153.1200.html That's the founder of Stencyl saying tracking isn't happening in Stencyl 3.0... and can be removed if it does. Is that sufficient evidence?
Additionally, I use programs like Hype and Artisteer. They're not exact competitors to GameSalad, but I feel they are similar applications. I looked at the code that Hype creates and I didn't see anything that would leak user data. I looked at Artisteer and I did see some issues. The template created from Artisteer was linking to off-site files... but I could easily change that because I could see and edit the code.
I didn't check to see what Unity or GameMaker are doing, but I did think about emailing Carlos Icaza to find out more about Corona. However, they have a post already...
http://www.coronalabs.com/blog/2013/05/16/update-on-corona-and-coppa-privacy-policies/ So, of the two GameSalad competitors that I checked, BOTH have options to remove the tracking.
I realize that collecting data on apps lets you know what platforms to support and it also lets you know which GameSalad games are successful. However, a lot of that data is already out there. Here are two examples...
http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html
http://gs.statcounter.com/
There are certain scenarios where GameSalad collecting app data would be reasonable... like if there was a cross-platform multiplayer option. That just makes sense. How else would you match the players? But if I'm just making something like a storybook app for young kids, the option of having ZERO DATA leaving the app seems reasonable. The developer should have the option to determine what's appropriate and what meets the requirements of the project... that's truly Pro.
Due to the permissions/ tracking I was crucified in reviews - accused of shipping spyware and adware in my game. So I have to agree with Photics on this one.
I certainly wouldn't do a Android promotion again with a Gamesalad created game, and I'd strongly recommend that no one else does either. It's a great shame for everyone really.
P.S. Trying to sound like a mad conspiracy theorist.
Historically, if GameSalad was given a chance, they would eventually see the error of their ways and do the right thing. I'm surprised that didn't happen here. It's disappointing too, because the software was starting to get interesting again.
It looks like I'm going to have to finish this project the hard way.
Another plus one for the Pro option to op out. I don't think it would affect GS too severely, as some people wouldn't even bother to uncheck the box, and Pro is already a fraction of the community.
- Thomas
As a new user to GameSalad this thread is quite alarming. Hearing about reactions to games created in GS in the Amazon store are also saddening.
I'm starting to think I should have done more research before seeing the possibilities and diving in.
The argument that its "pretty common" and others are doing it sounds very much like the "if everybody else jumped off a bridge would you".
Example - if players never go to your shop in game, you can see that in flurry and move button or access to new area and see if anyone clicks it etc. You can also see how long a user plays or stays in the app, even specific scenes. Without this level of analytics you are really just flying blind.
So I counter the suggestion of being able to opt out in favor of giving us the ability to use flurry too as developers.
I understand the antivirus used on android picks up on it and think its evil but doesn't distinguish on malicious vs meta (or maybe it does but doesn't matter to it). Sad we have to live in a paranoid world though and sad that there are those out there that do bad things with their apps which hurts us all. World we live in I guess.
Members could use it to make thier games better as they could learn where the game needs to be improved in order to extend play times etc. Without analytics gamesalad is more of a toy for hobbyists then a legitimate development software IMO.
Look how many games from the "other" sdks have been in the top 100 grossing in the last year. I have never noticed a GS game there, and I would bet it's because Devs don't know where to tune their games in order to improve average play times. This is so crucial for freemium or IAP models.
Would probably be pretty hard for GS to do deals with ad partners without metrics too.
Or in my situation, it makes GameSalad a nonstarter.
A little over a year ago, I posted my four main issues with GameSalad...
http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/43306/i-m-considering-giving-gamesalad-another-shot/p1
- Issue #1 was resolved (Universal Binaries are now available.)
- Issue #2 is irrelevant (I don't want advertisements in my apps.)
- Issue #3 is still a problem, but not an issue for this project.
- Issue #4 is supposedly being resolved, as HTML5 exporting is supposed to get better.
The problems were getting fixed or were no longer problems, but then the tracking issue showed up. This issue seems to be the only reason that I haven't already renewed my GameSalad subscription.So while I'm not assuming that GameSalad has sinister intentions, I do think that their decision to force tracking (even if it's anonymized data) is a bad decision. I don't see why they need tracking. The apps are not being created locally on the developer's computer, so they know what's being made with GameSalad. What is the additional information that they're hunting for?
Is it really worth losing subscribers over this issue?
If they need general statistics for software development, that's what the free version of GameSalad is for. But Pro, that should have meaning. If the software is truly Pro, it should meet the needs of professionals.
It seems like it's the latter, because I don't see how their position is defensible. Forcing tracking weakens the value of a Pro Subscription and it allows GameSalad competitors to gain ground.
Instead of renewing my GameSalad subscription, I've been working with different software. I still like GameSalad though, which is why I've written a lot on this topic. Plus, it's confusing to me... is anonymous User Data > $299 Subscription?
But unfortunately, GameSalad doesn't seem to want to budge on this one, so I have to keep grinding away with different software. It's been quite a learning experience, but it's disappointing to see GameSalad grow so much and then fumble so badly.
We're also preparing some information about the kinds of data we are tracking. This'll be useful for you to better understand what's going on. We're committed to complying with COPA regulations, of course. We'll post more on this soon.
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I appreciate that it could be a big task, but I'm sure it's one that many of us would benefit from, and those that don't want it can just opt out.
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It'll be a nice thing to have in the future, or at least have a behavior added that would allow us to plug in our own analytics service.
So, @CodeWizard . Any news on this op-out?
Ha, I'm happy to see that I'm not the only one wondering about this.
You mean theres now 2 of you?