@lovejoy You missed the point entirely... It's ok.
There are 600+ users on LinkedIn GameSalad developers group who don't agree with the change.
Other companies manage to give their software away for free and somehow make a profit, why should GS instigate this change and expect to see an improvement in returns?
@Toby different softwares do different things and provide a different level of service. What gamesalad provides or is attempting to provide, isnt easy. I agree that it takes money to make money. And giving it to you to make you money..... isnt making them any money. But since you are so inclined, maybe you can assist them and show them how to give it away free and they still make money. And if you need help... ask the other 600+ to give you a hand.
If you look at my initial quote and response to you, you would realize that i was talking about the great job Gamesalad has been doing updating/fixing the creator.
Then you went on about comparing products and saying you do more in 3 days than Gamesalad could do, so i quoted you two more times on your statements since it shows no logical reason for anyone who can do it in less time to want to purchase a license for a slower/lesser engine.
@Toby said:
There are 600+ users on LinkedIn GameSalad developers group who don't agree with the change.
There will always be people in disagreement, so what exactly is your point here? If it was the other way around and GS was free yet people disagree and think it should paid, would they too be correct?
@Toby said:
Other companies manage to give their software away for free and somehow make a profit, why should GS instigate this change and expect to see an improvement in returns?
Other companies are not Gamesalad. And even then, the prior methods used by Gamesalad showed no sign of increased revenue. So should a company seeing no return on investment just keep things the way they are? How long before the company goes under?
So by taking this business decision after trying other failed free ones is not illogical and actually makes sense. In GS will be able to evaluate it and see if its working.
So come back when you have educated yourself and read through whats going on and why the change was made, otherwise you are just among the group of people who wouldn't pay for anything anyways because they want everything for free.
@FINNBOGG said:
Toby different softwares do different things and provide a different level of service. What gamesalad provides or is attempting to provide, isnt easy. I agree that it takes money to make money. And giving it to you to make you money..... isnt making them any money. But since you are so inclined, maybe you can assist them and show them how to give it away free and they still make money. And if you need help... ask the other 600+ to give you a hand.
Quite correct, and fair point.
Must be possible as UNITY do it. Follow the crowd source model, the more current community members who invite new members who take out an initial subscription get a %50 discount or free on their next subscription.... Simple, that's how unity did it.
Toby....in regards to developing games. There are 2 basic types of people. Coder/Programmers then there are what you would call WYSIWYGers. Most WYSIWYG cant develope a game because they are not a coder/programmer. So those people will not be going to UNITY. UNITY is big because its providing a service that makes coders/programmer do their work faster. Gamesalad is trying to provide a service to those who fall more along the lines of a WYSIWYGer. Granted alot of GS users are coder/programmers. And Im sure those people use more than just GS.
So I really dont think you can use UNITY to compare what GS can and cant do with free software.
Now take your same logic... except this time find me another competitive software that is closer to providing the same service as gamesalad.
Now tell me what they are doing in regards to "free"
When you come back I think you will learn that GS in comparison is doing the best they can when it comes to making the prices as low as possible.
@Lovejoy said:
So come back when you have educated yourself and read through whats going on and why the change was made, otherwise you are just among the group of people who wouldn't pay for anything anyways because they want everything for free.
@Toby said:
Thanks for participating in this fruitless endeavour.
????? didnt quite get that statement.
But seriously Toby. go look at the other few companies that are attempting to do what GS does. If you like them better. Then by all means go pay the fees they are asking of you. GS currently isnt providing every feature the others are separately providing. But if you are as good at numbers as you are claiming to be. I hope you find that GS pricing is the best "Bang for Buck"
dgackeyAustin, TXInactive, PRO, Chef EmeritusPosts: 699
Thanks for the feedback @Toby. It wasn't a decision we arrived at lightly, nor overnight. Several years of hard data and experience with many, many permutations of different business models led to the decision.
Unity and similar tools are much different beasts than GS, both in terms of their end-user market and in terms of their business realities, but we appreciate the feedback nonetheless.
At the end of the day we just felt the best way to serve the customers best was to provide a service and tie our revenue directly to customer satisfaction. We felt that Creator was a unique tool that provided a value to the users attracted to our product, and that it was worth paying for.
If we continue to provide a good value for our customers, we'll know! If we don't, we'll know that, too.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
Despite my hard-ships with Game Salad, I still like how easy it is supposed to be.
In practice, there's generally a few things wrong with it at any one time that really spoil things.
But I keep paying, for the present, because I really like what the software INTENDS to be.
So yes, great, please do make us customers extremely satisfied, by shredding through that bug-base, fixing up my table related issues, making it as use-able and friendly, reliable, and bug-free as possible.
Hip hip hooray.
dgackeyAustin, TXInactive, PRO, Chef EmeritusPosts: 699
After 3 days with Playmaker I've already surpassed what I'd created in the GS engine... And it's using the camera and all the features of the device are available to use.
How's that for a comparison? AND FREE!!!!
One small issue with your argument....
Free? Playmaker is a paid plugin... Always has been. So you might be getting Unity for free, but you still have to pay for Playmaker. It's pretty good value for what it does, and is a one time fee, but it's not FREE.
Having originally used GS in 2012 and been pro for 2 years so i could publish i walked away as many things didnt work or were not fixed and stuff on the roadmap was never getting sorted. I actually stopped bothering with games as it was just a thing on the side - an extra tool in my creative arsenal. I used GameMaker for a bit but also stepped away. Im just starting with Unity (especially with the new model) and have just dipped back into GS to see whats what.
Firstly seeing the model change doesnt surprise me at all, as a business i wasnt sure how it would sustain and tbh you weed out dickheads releasing crap games armed with your logo - should have been done sooner.
However, conversely now with the paying for the tool - i sincerely hope its improved. Im still sad to see roadmap items 3 years later still not resolved and stupid crap like loading wheels only recently getting the fix, but really, custom polygon collision is still not a thing ? Anyway. Hopefully the resources of cash from users will improve your business as you can invest time and money into improving the product and experience for everyone.
Best of luck - im not coming back as cant justify the cost as i dont really make games that much, if i do it would be for pro membership anyway as i really cant see the value in being basic other than as people say to create with until ready for publishing.
@Toby So you used the free version of GameSalad to learn, then you switched to Playmaker? And you didn't pay for GameSalad, you just used it for free? What exactly are they losing from you by going to a paid model?
@arcticsunrise said:
Firstly seeing the model change doesnt surprise me at all, as a business i wasnt sure how it would sustain and tbh you weed out dickheads releasing crap games armed with your logo - should have been done sooner.
It's funny you should say that, I remember thinking at the time (the time when the GS Splash Screen appeared on apps made with the free/non-Pro version) that GameSalad had got that part completely the wrong way around . . . . forcing free users to brand their game with the GameSalad logo, while paid users could remove it, effectively created a situation where the GameSalad brand became associated with a lot of low quality games - of course not all games released using the free version were bad, I'm sure there were some good ones in there too, but in general the dynamic created by that system ensured the majority of really bad games were branded as GameSalad, while the people who spent 6 months making a really great game paid to distance themselves from the GameSalad image being tarnished by all the low quality games released with the free version.
I would have made it that you needed to pay to use the GameSalad logo (i.e. only Pro users could use the branding), seriously ! I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it would have created an upward pressure, with GameSalad - over time - becoming associated with higher quality apps.
Its true thought, now pretty much everyone tries to hide the fact their app is made with GS. The loading wheel was their last ditch effort which some got rid of by making games in one scene.
@Armelline said:
Toby So you used the free version of GameSalad to learn, then you switched to Playmaker? And you didn't pay for GameSalad, you just used it for free? What exactly are they losing from you by going to a paid model?
Reading is a wonderful thing... No I was a fully paid member since 2009, it expired recently and I discovered I could not open my files any longer. I was at least hoping to open and view my files at a bare minimum as GameSalad had always let you do that.
So out of frustration with the new pricing arrangement and constant issues with each release I've moved to UNITY and Playmaker which is not that different to GameSalad. It has predefined functions and behaviours and everything works in a stack / FSM just like GS.
It's a little bit painful recreating the games again in the new tool but I'm finding it to be really awesome and best of all FREE, FREE FREE FREE to use.
There is no payment until you actually publish, that way you can actually learn the tool at you're own pace.....
Hang on a second that used to be like another application I know.. That's right GameSalad, I remember that old app. It was really good and had heaps of potential but they killed it with a backward 90's pricing strategy stopping anyone using it unless they pay.
If they upped the trial to something like 3 or 6 months then that would be ok - 15 days is not good enough.
@Toby Okay well I personally enjoy paying less for GameSalad than I previously did. I guess you fall into the category of people who'll end up paying more. Good luck with Unity and Playmaker, hopefully it'll provide what you're after.
As for reading being a wonderful thing, I re-read your posts and the only place you mention anything about payment is when you say "re-subscribing". Well don't I deserve that condescension for missing a single word in a long thread.
And I think naming people who have sent you private messages is a very crappy thing to do.
I'm not sure why you're upset, its just a conversation. Healthy debate and discussion there was no personal jibe - wow sensitivities run shallow up this end of the play pool.
I'm writing because I care about GameSalad, but it appears the train has already left the station (the decision is made) and I did not know I had to get off.
So files I cannot open, not going to pay for the priveledge - greener pastures ahead.
@Toby said:
I'm not sure why you're upset, its just a conversation. Healthy debate and discussion there was no personal jibe - wow sensitivities run shallow up this end of the play pool.
I don't think anyone is being particularly sensitive, you're just being very condescending. Again.
As a person who has posted some "advice/criticism" of GS, and only because I want the application to reach it's potential, I am now feeling like I need to send the guys/gals at GS headquarters a few cases of beer.
It seems everyday there is a new harsh post (or two), of which I can be equally as guilty.
Let's just all breathe and give them some time to reveal their plan for GS and its' future. They are obviously getting hit every time they turn a corner. Perhaps it is time for us to all wait a bit and see what happens. That way they can focus on GS and not be concerned with reading "another" critical post.
Just my thoughts...
dgackeyAustin, TXInactive, PRO, Chef EmeritusPosts: 699
Appreciate the gesture, but the best thing fans of GS can do to share their appreciation with us is just to make awesome stuff with the tool. Everything else takes care of itself
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
Comments
Yes we trolls can't get enough of spouting crap.
@lovejoy You missed the point entirely... It's ok.
There are 600+ users on LinkedIn GameSalad developers group who don't agree with the change.
Other companies manage to give their software away for free and somehow make a profit, why should GS instigate this change and expect to see an improvement in returns?
@Toby different softwares do different things and provide a different level of service. What gamesalad provides or is attempting to provide, isnt easy. I agree that it takes money to make money. And giving it to you to make you money..... isnt making them any money. But since you are so inclined, maybe you can assist them and show them how to give it away free and they still make money. And if you need help... ask the other 600+ to give you a hand.
If you look at my initial quote and response to you, you would realize that i was talking about the great job Gamesalad has been doing updating/fixing the creator.
Then you went on about comparing products and saying you do more in 3 days than Gamesalad could do, so i quoted you two more times on your statements since it shows no logical reason for anyone who can do it in less time to want to purchase a license for a slower/lesser engine.
There will always be people in disagreement, so what exactly is your point here? If it was the other way around and GS was free yet people disagree and think it should paid, would they too be correct?
Other companies are not Gamesalad. And even then, the prior methods used by Gamesalad showed no sign of increased revenue. So should a company seeing no return on investment just keep things the way they are? How long before the company goes under?
So by taking this business decision after trying other failed free ones is not illogical and actually makes sense. In GS will be able to evaluate it and see if its working.
So come back when you have educated yourself and read through whats going on and why the change was made, otherwise you are just among the group of people who wouldn't pay for anything anyways because they want everything for free.
Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una
Quite correct, and fair point.
Must be possible as UNITY do it. Follow the crowd source model, the more current community members who invite new members who take out an initial subscription get a %50 discount or free on their next subscription.... Simple, that's how unity did it.
Grows the active user base and generates a passive income stream.
Toby....in regards to developing games. There are 2 basic types of people. Coder/Programmers then there are what you would call WYSIWYGers. Most WYSIWYG cant develope a game because they are not a coder/programmer. So those people will not be going to UNITY. UNITY is big because its providing a service that makes coders/programmer do their work faster. Gamesalad is trying to provide a service to those who fall more along the lines of a WYSIWYGer. Granted alot of GS users are coder/programmers. And Im sure those people use more than just GS.
So I really dont think you can use UNITY to compare what GS can and cant do with free software.
Now take your same logic... except this time find me another competitive software that is closer to providing the same service as gamesalad.
Now tell me what they are doing in regards to "free"
When you come back I think you will learn that GS in comparison is doing the best they can when it comes to making the prices as low as possible.
Take that... Feel better now?
Ill take that as you agreeing with my statement. I feel great, thanks for asking.
Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una
No, but you're entitled to see my point of view
you're welcome! Only time will tell.
Thanks for participating in this fruitless endeavour.
????? didnt quite get that statement.
But seriously Toby. go look at the other few companies that are attempting to do what GS does. If you like them better. Then by all means go pay the fees they are asking of you. GS currently isnt providing every feature the others are separately providing. But if you are as good at numbers as you are claiming to be. I hope you find that GS pricing is the best "Bang for Buck"
Thanks for the feedback @Toby. It wasn't a decision we arrived at lightly, nor overnight. Several years of hard data and experience with many, many permutations of different business models led to the decision.
Unity and similar tools are much different beasts than GS, both in terms of their end-user market and in terms of their business realities, but we appreciate the feedback nonetheless.
At the end of the day we just felt the best way to serve the customers best was to provide a service and tie our revenue directly to customer satisfaction. We felt that Creator was a unique tool that provided a value to the users attracted to our product, and that it was worth paying for.
If we continue to provide a good value for our customers, we'll know! If we don't, we'll know that, too.
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
Despite my hard-ships with Game Salad, I still like how easy it is supposed to be.
In practice, there's generally a few things wrong with it at any one time that really spoil things.
But I keep paying, for the present, because I really like what the software INTENDS to be.
So yes, great, please do make us customers extremely satisfied, by shredding through that bug-base, fixing up my table related issues, making it as use-able and friendly, reliable, and bug-free as possible.
Hip hip hooray.
@Hymloe: that's the plan!
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com
I've created an article in the GS Dev Group on LinkedIn to gather feedback so you can participate or even become a member.
https://www.linkedin.com/grp/post/2201891-6034224127533920258?trk=groups-post-b-comment
After 3 days with Playmaker I've already surpassed what I'd created in the GS engine... And it's using the camera and all the features of the device are available to use.
How's that for a comparison? AND FREE!!!!
One small issue with your argument....
Free? Playmaker is a paid plugin... Always has been. So you might be getting Unity for free, but you still have to pay for Playmaker. It's pretty good value for what it does, and is a one time fee, but it's not FREE.
Yes it was free as part of a UNITY promotion.
Otherwise you're quite right -- yes you would pay..$60 - $80 depending on your location for the plugin.
In all honesty, GameSalad has been really useful grasping the fundamentals of programming. It's been a great conduit into Playmaker.
Having originally used GS in 2012 and been pro for 2 years so i could publish i walked away as many things didnt work or were not fixed and stuff on the roadmap was never getting sorted. I actually stopped bothering with games as it was just a thing on the side - an extra tool in my creative arsenal. I used GameMaker for a bit but also stepped away. Im just starting with Unity (especially with the new model) and have just dipped back into GS to see whats what.
Firstly seeing the model change doesnt surprise me at all, as a business i wasnt sure how it would sustain and tbh you weed out dickheads releasing crap games armed with your logo - should have been done sooner.
However, conversely now with the paying for the tool - i sincerely hope its improved. Im still sad to see roadmap items 3 years later still not resolved and stupid crap like loading wheels only recently getting the fix, but really, custom polygon collision is still not a thing ? Anyway. Hopefully the resources of cash from users will improve your business as you can invest time and money into improving the product and experience for everyone.
Best of luck - im not coming back as cant justify the cost as i dont really make games that much, if i do it would be for pro membership anyway as i really cant see the value in being basic other than as people say to create with until ready for publishing.
Yep I agree, entirely. Hoping the regular new updates will fix the longstanding GS issues and bugs. Not holding my breath though.
I'm getting quite a lot of PMs regarding Playmaker .. Is it difficult to learn?.. No it's not.... and definitely worth a look.
@Toby So you used the free version of GameSalad to learn, then you switched to Playmaker? And you didn't pay for GameSalad, you just used it for free? What exactly are they losing from you by going to a paid model?
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
It's funny you should say that, I remember thinking at the time (the time when the GS Splash Screen appeared on apps made with the free/non-Pro version) that GameSalad had got that part completely the wrong way around . . . . forcing free users to brand their game with the GameSalad logo, while paid users could remove it, effectively created a situation where the GameSalad brand became associated with a lot of low quality games - of course not all games released using the free version were bad, I'm sure there were some good ones in there too, but in general the dynamic created by that system ensured the majority of really bad games were branded as GameSalad, while the people who spent 6 months making a really great game paid to distance themselves from the GameSalad image being tarnished by all the low quality games released with the free version.
I would have made it that you needed to pay to use the GameSalad logo (i.e. only Pro users could use the branding), seriously ! I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it would have created an upward pressure, with GameSalad - over time - becoming associated with higher quality apps.
@Socks said:
Very interesting.
Its true thought, now pretty much everyone tries to hide the fact their app is made with GS. The loading wheel was their last ditch effort which some got rid of by making games in one scene.
Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una
Reading is a wonderful thing... No I was a fully paid member since 2009, it expired recently and I discovered I could not open my files any longer. I was at least hoping to open and view my files at a bare minimum as GameSalad had always let you do that.
So out of frustration with the new pricing arrangement and constant issues with each release I've moved to UNITY and Playmaker which is not that different to GameSalad. It has predefined functions and behaviours and everything works in a stack / FSM just like GS.
It's a little bit painful recreating the games again in the new tool but I'm finding it to be really awesome and best of all FREE, FREE FREE FREE to use.
There is no payment until you actually publish, that way you can actually learn the tool at you're own pace.....
Hang on a second that used to be like another application I know.. That's right GameSalad, I remember that old app. It was really good and had heaps of potential but they killed it with a backward 90's pricing strategy stopping anyone using it unless they pay.
If they upped the trial to something like 3 or 6 months then that would be ok - 15 days is not good enough.
@Toby Okay well I personally enjoy paying less for GameSalad than I previously did. I guess you fall into the category of people who'll end up paying more. Good luck with Unity and Playmaker, hopefully it'll provide what you're after.
As for reading being a wonderful thing, I re-read your posts and the only place you mention anything about payment is when you say "re-subscribing". Well don't I deserve that condescension for missing a single word in a long thread.
And I think naming people who have sent you private messages is a very crappy thing to do.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
I didn't
I'm not sure why you're upset, its just a conversation. Healthy debate and discussion there was no personal jibe - wow sensitivities run shallow up this end of the play pool.
I'm writing because I care about GameSalad, but it appears the train has already left the station (the decision is made) and I did not know I had to get off.
So files I cannot open, not going to pay for the priveledge - greener pastures ahead.
I don't think anyone is being particularly sensitive, you're just being very condescending. Again.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
As a person who has posted some "advice/criticism" of GS, and only because I want the application to reach it's potential, I am now feeling like I need to send the guys/gals at GS headquarters a few cases of beer.
It seems everyday there is a new harsh post (or two), of which I can be equally as guilty.
Let's just all breathe and give them some time to reveal their plan for GS and its' future. They are obviously getting hit every time they turn a corner. Perhaps it is time for us to all wait a bit and see what happens. That way they can focus on GS and not be concerned with reading "another" critical post.
Just my thoughts...
@Pesto
Appreciate the gesture, but the best thing fans of GS can do to share their appreciation with us is just to make awesome stuff with the tool. Everything else takes care of itself
Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com