@Japster said:
Incidentally, it still works fine on an older iPhone 6, but this problem affects ALL of my test 6S's, 7's, and I'm presuming newer (and maybe older) devices
Hmm, wondering whether this might somehow be linked to the introduction of 3D Touch. That would correspond why the iPhone 6S and later. BUT, if it actually affects Android phones as well, that might be a red herring.
I actually... had this issue and contacted GS once. They were unable to reproduce it or something like that, this was a couple years ago for my game Ravenous Rampage which had touch controls extending to the very edge on the left (Edit: it was right, see bug report on bugzilla I linked below). One of the testers reported it, took me awhile to get to happen and believe him.
Funny, glad to see i'm not crazy and it's in multiple projects, I scoured my code for awhile over that one.
By the way, the main reason I had trouble reproducing this back then was because I was using a iPad primarily, it still happens on those, just to a much lesser extent than the iPhone (smaller margins of touch inconsistency on the sides of iPad).
Let's see... my game released Oct of 2014, the bug was caught like a day before release, so it must of been at most on 6/6 plus, maybe earlier. Cant remember what the testers device was other than it was an iPhone. I think I was on an iPad 3rd or 4th gen at the time.
@AlchimiaStudios@pHghost Yep, 2014?!!, so even now, with several people highlighting that it's worse than originally thought, and seemingly affecting newer, higher res devices worse than ever, it's not even garnered a single official response or assurance of being worked on anywhere... quelle surprise...
This is exactly what I'm talking about, and several others are now pretty convinced that the desktop Creator will be left in the dirt, and that dev features (Ads, Publishing, etc) may not even be a priority in the New Order (Edu)...
Great. So even if I still wanted to give GS a chance despite all of the f-ups, it's seeming more and more that I'd be dumped in the dirt anyway...
If they don't want to support the desktop product, they should still retain control of it, but let coders invested in its success have a go at fixing and maintaining it - I simply cannot see why they won't even give the user base a chance to be secure / self-fund / maintain the damn thing if they're going to drop it anyway.... sigh...
@Japster said:
so even now [...] it's not even garnered a single official response or assurance of being worked on anywhere...
Not trying to excuse GS here, since yeah, it's clearly been an issue for some time, but the silence right now at this moment when we linked these various threads together and there's renewed (and more concentrated) interest in this problem is also due to the fact that it's Christmas/New Year holiday time.
I'd suggest trying to renew a conversation with @adent42 and @ForumNinja when the holidays are done and make it clear to them that this is a critical issue for any and all projects/users.
@Japster said:
so even now [...] it's not even garnered a single official response or assurance of being worked on anywhere...
Not trying to excuse GS here, since yeah, it's clearly been an issue for some time, but the silence right now at this moment when we linked these various threads together and there's renewed (and more concentrated) interest in this problem is also due to the fact that it's Christmas/New Year holiday time.
I'd suggest trying to renew a conversation with @adent42 and @ForumNinja when the holidays are done and make it clear to them that this is a critical issue for any and all projects/users.
@pHghost - actually, that's a good point mate - still surprised no-one's checked in and interjected considering no HS fixed version was delivered, but that's a good point - I just can't believe yet another showstopper has arisen (and been here for years, by the looks of it), and once again, I'm completely (as are most of you) screwed in terms of a release.... :frowning: Not to mention continually wasted subs / months again. The irony was that after Adent's hard work, I was even (briefly) optimistic enough to even start making snowy gfx for an Xmas themed initial release of it, then stopped wasting time when I realised I was STILL screwed, as that problem with touch wasn't down to any logic of MINE I could fix, so killed any hopes of a release, AGAIN.
The Gamesalad Development team is most likely going to be moving toward the web platform, guys. And if so, I recommend we either try to learn that or move to some other software, preferably one that is 3D compatible and offers by default all of the features we have been requesting, specifically an efficient, powerful and reliable Windows Publishing feature. We all deserve to have our voices heard, and if GS isn't planning on making "finished, widely distributed game publishing" a feature, we may need to all move elsewhere.
I am sending this message to the GS team now, and I will report back to this message board as to what they say:
If the future isn't looking too bright, I recommend we all jump ship.
To help for those who can't swim, I'm going to try and create a book specifially on transitioning from GS scripting to C# coding, with specific examples like this:
Hopefully I won't have to because hopefully GS will work out. But if it doesn't, I recommend we all move on so that we can accomplish our dreams.
@Cutscene Entertainment - sounds a good idea to ease people into it... @Socks , yeah, I might take a break mate, especially as I've just opened GS up for the first time in ages,
and made a sample project, one scene at GS 2048 x 1536 units camera size, and one at 640 x 420, just to test.
Lots of buttons and a camera reset on each, and yep, the problem exists even without resetting camera, and on EACH test screen, so looking like no way around it until (unless?!) GS fix it... I can confirm that even buttons away from the edge are affected. It doesn't register a press if you tap on any part of a button that's remotely NEAR the edge of the screen. The same button will ONLY press if you tap anywhere on it that is far enough away from the edge of the screen.
@pHghost - I have about 20-30 buttons, and I can also confirm that it affects EVERY edge of the screen/device, in both test scenes.
On that depressing note I'm taking a break, **** it.
@adent42@Braydon_SFX@ForumNinja, once you're back, this needs looking into like yesterday, guys... It's obviously affecting EVERYBODY who has buttons near the edge (and when I say NEAR, I mean ANY PART of a button near the edge. ie. it's not a button issue, but more of an issue with GS not recognising ANY screen input outside of a smaller area than the screen....)
Just uploading a last test to see if I can make any sense out of the actual values (mouse, touch, raw), then I'm done.
@Japster yeah, my game has the bug too. Even the big duck button in bottom left doesnt often work. The right edge is not even close to the phones edge.
So now I have a game in the appstore with this nasty bug which GS isnt going to fix anytime soon. It breaks my game.
@Cutscene Entertainment don’t expect a quick reply from them. It’s holiday time and nobody is in at GameSalad, most likely.
But, fortunately, this question was previously discussed and answered.
GameSalad is going to become exclusively web-based and the current desktop Creator will be killed off once the web version comes out of Beta (plus probably a set adjustment period). Most likely that will mean they will disable either publishing with or logging in on the desktop version.
There will supposedly be an offline version of the new Creator, but it will be exactly the same HTML5 codebase, just run locally.
@Cutscene Entertainment said:
To help for those who can't swim, I'm going to try and create a book specifially on transitioning from GS scripting to C# coding
If you have the time and energy to do this, it’s a great idea and I think you would have quite a couple customers. Not only from the ranks of people thinking about jumping ship. People who have left previously and are using other engines are likely to be interested as well. And also people like me: who aren't necessarily thinking about leaving GameSalad, but have always wanted to learn to code at some point (and have been putting that point off repeatedly). Introducing people into coding by using their knowledge of GameSalad is a really compelling idea.
@Zwire said: @Japster yeah, my game has the bug too. Even the big duck button in bottom left doesnt often work. The right edge is not even close to the phones edge.
So now I have a game in the appstore with this nasty bug which GS isnt going to fix anytime soon. It breaks my game.
So frustrating and costing me players...
Exactly @Zwire - THIS is what pees me off - I daren't release my game while this bug threatens to get me such bad press, and alienate players (let alone make me look like an idiot developer)...
@Japster said: @Cutscene Entertainment - sounds a good idea to ease people into it... @Socks , yeah, I might take a break mate, especially as I've just opened GS up for the first time in ages,
and made a sample project, one scene at GS 2048 x 1536 units camera size, and one at 640 x 420, just to test.
Lots of buttons and a camera reset on each, and yep, the problem exists even without resetting camera, and on EACH test screen, so looking like no way around it until (unless?!) GS fix it... I can confirm that even buttons away from the edge are affected. It doesn't register a press if you tap on any part of a button that's remotely NEAR the edge of the screen
Do you have an idea how far from edge it has to be to work??
This is problematic for my overscan scene where iPhone 10 buttons will be close to edge.
Hmm.... interestingly, I made a test to display and resize an actor to MOUSE X/Y, and that works fine on the device and Creator preview. However, I'm also displaying the RAW values - works fine on the Creator (I get 0-1023 x 0-767 range) but on the device I just get INF returned for both of those - maybe related, maybe not.
As I used MOUSE X/Y in my latest test (which behaved as working 100%, using an unlocked actor with mouseover to resize another actor based on that value), I'm gonna try Touch X/Y instead, and feed back my findings...
@Japster said: @Cutscene Entertainment - sounds a good idea to ease people into it... @Socks , yeah, I might take a break mate, especially as I've just opened GS up for the first time in ages,
and made a sample project, one scene at GS 2048 x 1536 units camera size, and one at 640 x 420, just to test.
Lots of buttons and a camera reset on each, and yep, the problem exists even without resetting camera, and on EACH test screen, so looking like no way around it until (unless?!) GS fix it... I can confirm that even buttons away from the edge are affected. It doesn't register a press if you tap on any part of a button that's remotely NEAR the edge of the screen
Do you have an idea how far from edge it has to be to work??
This is problematic for my overscan scene where iPhone 10 buttons will be close to edge.
Edited:- I wasn't that clear first time around....
@Toque - It's actually pretty far I'm afraid mate - I'll post a video up later if I get time, but if ANY part of your button is outside this area, it won't even count as a touch if touched there, I'm afraid, only the area that falls within this edge 'boundary', for want of a better term....
@Japster said:
I'm gonna try Touch X/Y instead, and feed back my findings...
Let us know!
@pHghost - Well, how's this for weird - been busy, so not been able to build another test, BUT, testing my edge buttons on my earlier test app build on my mobile, I can definitely confirm that if I tap 'em, nothing happens, EVER.
BUT, if I hold my finger in the EXACT SAME PLACE, ie. definitely do NOT move it into the registered/touchable area, then after say, 1/2 second to a second, it DOES press, and remains pressing for the duration of the press, or unless I move my finger off-screen, so it seems it's down to something that is causing a delay for some reason, before a press is registered in that area. ie. the touch itself DOES happen if held long enough - @pHghost@Zwire - try on your problem apps guys (on a simple press/tap rule one), and let me know if HOLDING an edge button kicks in a 'touch' event?
Surely GS can do something with these testing results? - I mean, it's now obvious exactly what's happening in terms of WHEN it goes wrong, and WHERE it goes wrong, then the RAW values aren't displaying (Maybe Inf=Infinity?) and the delay issue/mechanism must be fairly self-evident in their code.
On my test device (ipad 3) the button is working without problems. Friends of mine who are playing on iphones 6's and 7's are saying that the button is working but often does not. So it does work but not all the time.
@Zwire said:
On my test device (ipad 3) the button is working without problems. Friends of mine who are playing on iphones 6's and 7's are saying that the button is working but often does not. So it does work but not all the time.
@Zwire - Yep, I'm strongly suspecting on phones it's ONLY working if they press a little longer by mistake, OR they happen to tap the button further in from the edge of the device - would be good to confirm, as it's still deffo happening on my test and my actual game. :frowning:
Then in these two instances, the ONLY way I can 'tap' ANY of the edge buttons are when I HOLD them (fyi, the tapped button lights up and shows a STAR):-
Finally, the ONLY edge buttons close enough to almost work properly (other than the top 1/5th slice of the button's area, nearest the top of the screen in this one's case), are this far away:-
That's pretty bloody far in, for any button to STILL not be recognised properly / fully. I'll test using TOUCH game/device attribute rules tomorrow, to see what my visual limits test goes out to, so we should have a proper idea of the affected/unresponsive area percentage then...
So, the mouse X/Y logic is working 100%, but for some reason the touch attributes aren't using the same logic (the ones we can see/access as ATTRIBUTES may well turn out to be calculating just fine, in which case possibly GS's engine is using it's own way of detecting and flagging touches, and this seems screwed on the higher res devices) - I'm guessing some bounding/scaling logic is hitting a point where it's throwing the calculation/adjustment for each native device resolution out, or hitting some preset maximum/limit for the calculation (ie. akin to running a 'Minimum' on it etc)...
@Japster said:
BUT, if I hold my finger in the EXACT SAME PLACE, ie. definitely do NOT move it into the registered/touchable area, then after say, 1/2 second to a second, it DOES press
Yup, that's been case. That's how I initially figured out that what you were describing and my old issue were the same thing.
@Zwire said:
Friends of mine who are playing on iphones 6's and 7's are saying that the button is working but often does not
I think that's because of the size of the button. Depends on how close to the edge they are tapping. Only the area close to the edge is affected, not the whole button. Also, maybe it has to do with the buttons eventually disappearing.
@pHghost was right about this whole thing. It really is unfortunate that things had to turn out like this. However, I recommend @Japster and others should continue to try and hold out at least until the completion of their current projects, making whatever compromises with the faulty software are necessary, just for the sake of getting their games done. I certainly will try. But man does it suck that you have to make such great edits to cope with the software in the first place. Good luck to you all.
@Zwire said:
Do you think that if I moved the duck button more to the right, it would work like it should?
@Zwire - I think it would need to go more UP than right mate, but yeah, a little more right too - ie. - this overlay I've placed on your pic is (roughly) the minimum distance from the edge that your button would work without the main area and outermost edges of it not counting:-
Ps - You'll need to do the same to pull the JUMP button up and LEFT too, as a workaround...
Of course, as you can see, it'll work in a fashion, but now your buttons will obscure any upcoming hazards, by being RIGHT over the path.... great... so maybe you can move the camera/viewport DOWN a little to visually push everything UP a little to compensate, without needing to move loads of **** around (ie. just add some more rock beneath the 'ground'). It's another example of why it's a ball-ache to work around sh*tty bugs that really shouldn't be left in there for 10 ******* MONTHS......
Comments
Hmm, wondering whether this might somehow be linked to the introduction of 3D Touch. That would correspond why the iPhone 6S and later. BUT, if it actually affects Android phones as well, that might be a red herring.
I wouldn't be surprised. A much as I would hope this becomes a priority, now that is is clearly affecting more users...
I actually... had this issue and contacted GS once. They were unable to reproduce it or something like that, this was a couple years ago for my game Ravenous Rampage which had touch controls extending to the very edge on the left (Edit: it was right, see bug report on bugzilla I linked below). One of the testers reported it, took me awhile to get to happen and believe him.
Funny, glad to see i'm not crazy and it's in multiple projects, I scoured my code for awhile over that one.
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By the way, the main reason I had trouble reproducing this back then was because I was using a iPad primarily, it still happens on those, just to a much lesser extent than the iPhone (smaller margins of touch inconsistency on the sides of iPad).
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Was that before the iPhone 6s, then?
Let's see... my game released Oct of 2014, the bug was caught like a day before release, so it must of been at most on 6/6 plus, maybe earlier. Cant remember what the testers device was other than it was an iPhone. I think I was on an iPad 3rd or 4th gen at the time.
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@pHghost @Japster better yet, I have found the bug http://bugs.gamesalad.com/show_bug.cgi?id=386
I should never have given up on it back then =(
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@AlchimiaStudios @pHghost Yep, 2014?!!, so even now, with several people highlighting that it's worse than originally thought, and seemingly affecting newer, higher res devices worse than ever, it's not even garnered a single official response or assurance of being worked on anywhere... quelle surprise...
This is exactly what I'm talking about, and several others are now pretty convinced that the desktop Creator will be left in the dirt, and that dev features (Ads, Publishing, etc) may not even be a priority in the New Order (Edu)...
Great. So even if I still wanted to give GS a chance despite all of the f-ups, it's seeming more and more that I'd be dumped in the dirt anyway...
If they don't want to support the desktop product, they should still retain control of it, but let coders invested in its success have a go at fixing and maintaining it - I simply cannot see why they won't even give the user base a chance to be secure / self-fund / maintain the damn thing if they're going to drop it anyway.... sigh...
Not trying to excuse GS here, since yeah, it's clearly been an issue for some time, but the silence right now at this moment when we linked these various threads together and there's renewed (and more concentrated) interest in this problem is also due to the fact that it's Christmas/New Year holiday time.
I'd suggest trying to renew a conversation with @adent42 and @ForumNinja when the holidays are done and make it clear to them that this is a critical issue for any and all projects/users.
@pHghost - actually, that's a good point mate - still surprised no-one's checked in and interjected considering no HS fixed version was delivered, but that's a good point - I just can't believe yet another showstopper has arisen (and been here for years, by the looks of it), and once again, I'm completely (as are most of you) screwed in terms of a release.... :frowning: Not to mention continually wasted subs / months again. The irony was that after Adent's hard work, I was even (briefly) optimistic enough to even start making snowy gfx for an Xmas themed initial release of it, then stopped wasting time when I realised I was STILL screwed, as that problem with touch wasn't down to any logic of MINE I could fix, so killed any hopes of a release, AGAIN.
The Gamesalad Development team is most likely going to be moving toward the web platform, guys. And if so, I recommend we either try to learn that or move to some other software, preferably one that is 3D compatible and offers by default all of the features we have been requesting, specifically an efficient, powerful and reliable Windows Publishing feature. We all deserve to have our voices heard, and if GS isn't planning on making "finished, widely distributed game publishing" a feature, we may need to all move elsewhere.
I am sending this message to the GS team now, and I will report back to this message board as to what they say:
If the future isn't looking too bright, I recommend we all jump ship.
To help for those who can't swim, I'm going to try and create a book specifially on transitioning from GS scripting to C# coding, with specific examples like this:
Hopefully I won't have to because hopefully GS will work out. But if it doesn't, I recommend we all move on so that we can accomplish our dreams.
@Cutscene Entertainment - sounds a good idea to ease people into it... @Socks , yeah, I might take a break mate, especially as I've just opened GS up for the first time in ages,
and made a sample project, one scene at GS 2048 x 1536 units camera size, and one at 640 x 420, just to test.
Lots of buttons and a camera reset on each, and yep, the problem exists even without resetting camera, and on EACH test screen, so looking like no way around it until (unless?!) GS fix it... I can confirm that even buttons away from the edge are affected. It doesn't register a press if you tap on any part of a button that's remotely NEAR the edge of the screen. The same button will ONLY press if you tap anywhere on it that is far enough away from the edge of the screen.
@pHghost - I have about 20-30 buttons, and I can also confirm that it affects EVERY edge of the screen/device, in both test scenes.
On that depressing note I'm taking a break, **** it.
@adent42 @Braydon_SFX @ForumNinja, once you're back, this needs looking into like yesterday, guys... It's obviously affecting EVERYBODY who has buttons near the edge (and when I say NEAR, I mean ANY PART of a button near the edge. ie. it's not a button issue, but more of an issue with GS not recognising ANY screen input outside of a smaller area than the screen....)
Just uploading a last test to see if I can make any sense out of the actual values (mouse, touch, raw), then I'm done.
@Japster yeah, my game has the bug too. Even the big duck button in bottom left doesnt often work. The right edge is not even close to the phones edge.
So now I have a game in the appstore with this nasty bug which GS isnt going to fix anytime soon. It breaks my game.
So frustrating and costing me players...
@Cutscene Entertainment don’t expect a quick reply from them. It’s holiday time and nobody is in at GameSalad, most likely.
But, fortunately, this question was previously discussed and answered.
GameSalad is going to become exclusively web-based and the current desktop Creator will be killed off once the web version comes out of Beta (plus probably a set adjustment period). Most likely that will mean they will disable either publishing with or logging in on the desktop version.
There will supposedly be an offline version of the new Creator, but it will be exactly the same HTML5 codebase, just run locally.
If you have the time and energy to do this, it’s a great idea and I think you would have quite a couple customers. Not only from the ranks of people thinking about jumping ship. People who have left previously and are using other engines are likely to be interested as well. And also people like me: who aren't necessarily thinking about leaving GameSalad, but have always wanted to learn to code at some point (and have been putting that point off repeatedly). Introducing people into coding by using their knowledge of GameSalad is a really compelling idea.
Exactly @Zwire - THIS is what pees me off - I daren't release my game while this bug threatens to get me such bad press, and alienate players (let alone make me look like an idiot developer)...
Do you have an idea how far from edge it has to be to work??
This is problematic for my overscan scene where iPhone 10 buttons will be close to edge.
Hmm.... interestingly, I made a test to display and resize an actor to MOUSE X/Y, and that works fine on the device and Creator preview. However, I'm also displaying the RAW values - works fine on the Creator (I get 0-1023 x 0-767 range) but on the device I just get INF returned for both of those - maybe related, maybe not.
As I used MOUSE X/Y in my latest test (which behaved as working 100%, using an unlocked actor with mouseover to resize another actor based on that value), I'm gonna try Touch X/Y instead, and feed back my findings...
Edited:- I wasn't that clear first time around....
@Toque - It's actually pretty far I'm afraid mate - I'll post a video up later if I get time, but if ANY part of your button is outside this area, it won't even count as a touch if touched there, I'm afraid, only the area that falls within this edge 'boundary', for want of a better term....
About 20-30 GS Points. Double that in pixels, roughly. That's per each side.
Let us know!
Is this a problem with phones? If it is also on the computer, I would like to look into it.
@pHghost - Well, how's this for weird - been busy, so not been able to build another test, BUT, testing my edge buttons on my earlier test app build on my mobile, I can definitely confirm that if I tap 'em, nothing happens, EVER.
BUT, if I hold my finger in the EXACT SAME PLACE, ie. definitely do NOT move it into the registered/touchable area, then after say, 1/2 second to a second, it DOES press, and remains pressing for the duration of the press, or unless I move my finger off-screen, so it seems it's down to something that is causing a delay for some reason, before a press is registered in that area. ie. the touch itself DOES happen if held long enough - @pHghost @Zwire - try on your problem apps guys (on a simple press/tap rule one), and let me know if HOLDING an edge button kicks in a 'touch' event?
Surely GS can do something with these testing results? - I mean, it's now obvious exactly what's happening in terms of WHEN it goes wrong, and WHERE it goes wrong, then the RAW values aren't displaying (Maybe Inf=Infinity?) and the delay issue/mechanism must be fairly self-evident in their code.
Here's hoping...
On my test device (ipad 3) the button is working without problems. Friends of mine who are playing on iphones 6's and 7's are saying that the button is working but often does not. So it does work but not all the time.
@Zwire - Yep, I'm strongly suspecting on phones it's ONLY working if they press a little longer by mistake, OR they happen to tap the button further in from the edge of the device - would be good to confirm, as it's still deffo happening on my test and my actual game. :frowning:
Do you think that if I moved the duck button more to the right, it would work like it should?
So, @pHghost @Zwire @AlchimiaStudios - here's what I'm finding:-
CREATOR:-
Before registering any touch:-
After (and while) registering a touch:-
iPhone / Device:-
Before registering any touch:-
After (and while) registering a touch:-
Then in these two instances, the ONLY way I can 'tap' ANY of the edge buttons are when I HOLD them (fyi, the tapped button lights up and shows a STAR):-
Finally, the ONLY edge buttons close enough to almost work properly (other than the top 1/5th slice of the button's area, nearest the top of the screen in this one's case), are this far away:-
That's pretty bloody far in, for any button to STILL not be recognised properly / fully. I'll test using TOUCH game/device attribute rules tomorrow, to see what my visual limits test goes out to, so we should have a proper idea of the affected/unresponsive area percentage then...
So, the mouse X/Y logic is working 100%, but for some reason the touch attributes aren't using the same logic (the ones we can see/access as ATTRIBUTES may well turn out to be calculating just fine, in which case possibly GS's engine is using it's own way of detecting and flagging touches, and this seems screwed on the higher res devices) - I'm guessing some bounding/scaling logic is hitting a point where it's throwing the calculation/adjustment for each native device resolution out, or hitting some preset maximum/limit for the calculation (ie. akin to running a 'Minimum' on it etc)...
Yup, that's been case. That's how I initially figured out that what you were describing and my old issue were the same thing.
I think that's because of the size of the button. Depends on how close to the edge they are tapping. Only the area close to the edge is affected, not the whole button. Also, maybe it has to do with the buttons eventually disappearing.
Thats really far in indeed. This really really sucks.
Hope they can fix it soon.
Thanks @Japster for taking the time to test this.
@pHghost was right about this whole thing. It really is unfortunate that things had to turn out like this. However, I recommend @Japster and others should continue to try and hold out at least until the completion of their current projects, making whatever compromises with the faulty software are necessary, just for the sake of getting their games done. I certainly will try. But man does it suck that you have to make such great edits to cope with the software in the first place. Good luck to you all.
@Zwire - I think it would need to go more UP than right mate, but yeah, a little more right too - ie. - this overlay I've placed on your pic is (roughly) the minimum distance from the edge that your button would work without the main area and outermost edges of it not counting:-
Ps - You'll need to do the same to pull the JUMP button up and LEFT too, as a workaround...
Of course, as you can see, it'll work in a fashion, but now your buttons will obscure any upcoming hazards, by being RIGHT over the path.... great... so maybe you can move the camera/viewport DOWN a little to visually push everything UP a little to compensate, without needing to move loads of **** around (ie. just add some more rock beneath the 'ground'). It's another example of why it's a ball-ache to work around sh*tty bugs that really shouldn't be left in there for 10 ******* MONTHS......
Hope that helps mate....