15 day Trial

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Comments

  • tmanntmann Member Posts: 278
    edited July 2015

    I posted this in the other "state of ...." thread but feel it is totally relevant here so hopefully ok.

    Does strike me as a tad ironic that the month Apple finally lets us develop and test for free to our hearts content on all our fruity devices GS once again throws a mega curve ball which bucks the “take as long as you want to LEARN… it’s free” trend of all major/minor/totally-obscure development toolsets.

    I have always thought a sensible pay to publish to stores solution made the most sense but it seems a real shame that all the young enthusiasts will now fall off the GS boat as the tool stops working after 15 days.

  • The_Gamesalad_GuruThe_Gamesalad_Guru Member Posts: 9,919

    @tmann said:
    I posted this in the other "state of ...." thread but feel it is totally relevant here so hopefully ok.

    Does strike me as a tad ironic that the month Apple finally lets us develop and test for free to our hearts content on all our fruity devices GS once again throws a mega curve ball which bucks the “take as long as you want to LEARN… it’s free” trend of all major/minor/totally-obscure development toolsets.

    I have always thought a sensible pay to publish to stores solution made the most sense but it seems a real shame that all the young enthusiasts will now fall off the GS boat as the tool stops working after 15 days.

    it still cost $99 to be an Apple developer

  • KevinCrossKevinCross London, UKMember Posts: 1,894
    edited July 2015

    @The_Gamesalad_Guru said:
    it still cost $99 to be an Apple developer

    I think @tmann is saying that you don't need to be a paid developer with Apple now to test on the device. Not sure how long this has been like this but I'm sure you had to pay $99 a year to test on your device. According to the pricing chart you don't need to anymore:

    https://developer.apple.com/support/compare-memberships/

    Apple are now giving you time to build a game and take as long as you like before you pay the $99 to put it on the store. Something that GameSalad should consider too.

  • The_Gamesalad_GuruThe_Gamesalad_Guru Member Posts: 9,919

    Ah, I see. but GS isn't Apple with 75 billion dollars either.

  • KevinCrossKevinCross London, UKMember Posts: 1,894

    @The_Gamesalad_Guru said:
    Ah, I see. but GS isn't Apple with 75 billion dollars either.

    True, but by opening up this Apple are I'm guessing encouraging more people to learn and develop for their devices which in turn finally brings them in more $99 yearly subscriptions once people are ready to release something.

    The same would work in GameSalad's favor too by continuing to offer it for free, allowing people time to learn it etc. but make it so that they have to pay to publish. Seem simples really.

    Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they do get loads of people signing up for the Basic account and paying them $19 a month etc. and most of the current free users upgrade too, in which case that's good news for GameSalad and it's users as it means they have more money to improve the software. But I doubt it...

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,191

    @tmann said:
    I have always thought a sensible pay to publish to stores solution made the most sense but it seems a real shame that all the young enthusiasts will now fall off the GS boat as the tool stops working after 15 days.

    The only option GameSalad had on that front was to keep the $299 yearly subscription fee, but make the free version unable to publish at all. That would be your preference? (Genuine question.)

  • KevinCrossKevinCross London, UKMember Posts: 1,894
    edited July 2015

    @Armelline said:
    The only option GameSalad had on that front was to keep the $299 yearly subscription fee, but make the free version unable to publish at all. That would be your preference? (Genuine question.)

    That would definitely be my preference! Genuine answer

  • tmanntmann Member Posts: 278

    @Armelline said:
    The only option GameSalad had on that front was to keep the $299 yearly subscription fee, but make the free version unable to publish at all. That would be your preference? (Genuine question.)

    Yes ultimately - free to test on devices and around the £200 ($299) mark to publish to revenue generating stores. As a firm believer in free education it is a real shame that the motivating and inspiring ability to knock together little projects in GS will be gone for those with no income.

    The whole free to publish and accompanying template madness has done no end of damage to the credibility of GS and the app store in general. So in that way things are, looking up, but the rot is far too deep to be cut out know and it will still be possible to pay just $29 and fire out a hundred crappy appies.

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,191

    @tmann said:
    The whole free to publish and accompanying template madness has done no end of damage to the credibility of GS and the app store in general. So in that way things are, looking up, but the rot is far too deep to be cut out know and it will still be possible to pay just $29 and fire out a hundred crappy appies.

    Can't disagree there.

    Guess we'll see how this works out. I'm betting free with no publishing and a yearly fee to publish is Plan B.

  • WebWarriorWebWarrior Member, PRO Posts: 62
    edited July 2015

    We've been working very hard to understand our users - including those who don't post on the forums - and what we've determined is that most users never actually finish a game and publish. We have a huge community of hobbyists who are just learning how to make games, and never actually intend to become a professional app developer.

    This, of course, goes against a lot of assumptions we've made in the past, and we're shifting our focus in response. We now consider the GameSalad learning experience to be a product itself, and we're now focused on making that experience something worth paying for!

  • KevinCrossKevinCross London, UKMember Posts: 1,894
    edited July 2015

    @WebWarrior said:
    We've been working very hard to understand our users - including those who don't post on the forums - and what we've determined is that most users never actually finish a game and publish. We have a huge community of hobbyists who are just learning how to make games, and never actually intend to become a professional app developer.

    So what made you decide on making it a 15 day trial and charge everyone, including those that never actually finish a game and publish? What makes you think these people are going to pay?

    How are these people going to continue learning in a short trial period?

    Surely most of the hard core developers, and those that have actually finished a game or two are already Pro subscribers or have been in the past, and likely to come back as Pro subscribers at a later date. So you're not really pulling in new customers with the Basic plan, and taking away the free plan.

  • tmanntmann Member Posts: 278

    @WebWarrior said:
    We've been working very hard to understand our users - including those who don't post on the forums - and what we've determined is that most users never actually finish a game and publish. We have a huge community of hobbyists who are just learning how to make games, and never actually intend to become a professional app developer.

    This, of course, goes against a lot of assumptions we've made in the past, and we're shifting our focus in response. We now consider the GameSalad learning experience to be a product itself, and we're now focused on making that experience something worth paying for!

    That honesty is certainly very refreshing but hobbyists tend to be just that and are very controlled about where they spend their money. Paying to "Play" with software will never be a revenue stream - the gazillion pirate users of Maya, Photoshop, 3d Studio Max etc etc are proof of this.

    If GS was the last word in ultimate game development teaching you might have a shot but it is far too quirky and strange in many of its methods to be that. It often teaches great concepts and ideas but the resultant methods are often very far from real world coding.

  • CodeWizardCodeWizard Inactive, Chef Emeritus Posts: 1,143
    edited July 2015

    @WebWarrior Well said! I love it when the company vision is so well understood! :)

    @tmann @KevinCross The timing of the trial is an interesting choice, and it's one that's not set in stone. We're measuring the effectiveness of this and other choices. These things are best achieved through experimentation and measurement.

    When we saw that most users coming to GameSalad want to learn game development then we decided to make a shift in our focus. We're working toward making a one stop shop for learning game development with GameSalad. Get the tools and the instruction needed to become a developer with GS. That's something worth paying for IMO.

    Sure there are folks that can't afford to pay. Or won't pay out of principle. That's always the case. And, sure there's totally free options out there -- albeit much more difficult to use. In any case, our free forever until you publish model just wasn't working. So, something else was needed.

    Seems to me that the best option, based on observation, is to align GS with helping people learn how to make games. And that's what we're doing.

    To those that compare GS to a Free to Play game... I can see your thinking. And I certainly think there's a valuable product concept in providing free tools that use microtransactions. But that's really not GameSalad Creator. That's a different product altogether. Reinventing Creator to become microtransaction-based is just too much to expect. Not that we won't tackle such a project in the future though...

  • ant_ladant_lad Member Posts: 222

    @CodeWizard Do you feel that things posted recently by staff, then a turnaround in stating that changes happened in March, thus negating recent posts, could be leading to a good portion of the negativity?

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,191
    edited July 2015

    @ant_lad said:
    CodeWizard Do you feel that things posted recently by staff, then a turnaround in stating that changes happened in March, thus negating recent posts, could be leading to a good portion of the negativity?

    Our first clue this was coming was when they stopped letting you use creator without logging in. Our second clue was how short the original "offline" allowance was - later increased to 7 days after user demand.

    Next we had the introduction of a monthly plan. Perhaps a first dipping of their toes into the water? Perhaps if that had seen a big uptick in subs, they'd have left it there. But presumably it didn't.

    Our biggest clue though was a dramatic shift in priorities. This has always been my biggest complaint about GameSalad, year after year:

    "Why the hell are they doing that new thing when this other vital thing needs fixing so badly?!"

    GameSalad as a company have had some truly bizarre prioritising of resources over the years.

    A couple of months ago the priority became crystal clear: Make the Creator as fast and stable as possible.

    Suddenly huge amounts of focus was being directed towards polishing up the core product, not dicking around with tangental things. A lot of long-time users sighed a big sigh of relief when this happened.

    So this change, while a big surprise, isn't lacking in foreshadowing.

    Our job now as a community is to make sure GameSalad as a company know what things we'd really like to see cough custom fonts cough added to the Creator (once it's fully stable) to make us feel we're getting our money's worth. The correct answer, of course, is custom fonts.

  • AlchimiaStudiosAlchimiaStudios Member Posts: 1,069

    @Armelline said:
    Our job now as a community is to make sure GameSalad as a company know what things we'd really like to see cough custom fonts cough added to the Creator (once it's fully stable) to make us feel we're getting our money's worth. The correct answer, of course, is custom fonts.

    Ok new idea....

    Free to use Creator.... anndd... Monetize the custom fonts, each font upload costs 10$. Also give us discounts for bulk uploads. And make sure there is a 1,000$ option that's labeled "best value".

    Maybe throw in a few free coins and some ads while we wait for the upload. Also call the upload feature "League of Custom Front Crush" and saturate google results with that term.

    SEO man....

    Follow us: Twitter - Website

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,191

    @AlchimiaStudios said:
    Ok new idea....

    You scared me for a second there...

  • dgackeydgackey Austin, TXInactive, PRO, Chef Emeritus Posts: 699

    @ant_lad said:
    CodeWizard Do you feel that things posted recently by staff, then a turnaround in stating that changes happened in March, thus negating recent posts, could be leading to a good portion of the negativity?

    I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Can you elaborate?

    Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com

  • ant_ladant_lad Member Posts: 222

    Things like pushing Graphene a month ago and now posting things like: "Graphene SDK is currently on hold while we work out some other stuff. But it's not dead yet"
    That tells me that Graphene will be shoehorned into GS in some way, my guess is a new GS down road in the near future.
    I don't feel like looking up everything from the recent past. It is obvious that this was handled very badly. Any time there is a united front from devs, then a turn-around by the same team, users feel shorted. Reading through these threads it seems to me that the price change isn't what users are upset about- it is the extremely short notice. Most of this won't make sense to most, only to those that are actively reading forums and have a memory of what they read yesterday.
    I enjoy this community and stop by to read and offer an opinion/help.

    Now, this will come across negatively, and it is kind of meant that way: "To be more accurate, it would be like saying "spend somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 - 2000 man-months making a game and put it on the stores for free", but something like that, yes"
    Does this mean that you were part of the original company that developed GS before it was GS? Or does this mean you guys have sunk 1 million + hours into GS since it was bought as a finished product?
    Either way it is very telling as to how things are behind the scenes. Another thing that I am waiting for is when the Home page for GS will get a change- when will the 750,000+ developers be reduced? And where the number will end up? 13 days from now? 30 days? A hobby of mine is to watch how long devs manipulate stats to keep their numbers up.
    My main hope for users is a cohesive and up-to-date program and teaching.

  • dgackeydgackey Austin, TXInactive, PRO, Chef Emeritus Posts: 699
    edited July 2015

    It's very difficult to follow all of your questions / points, but here goes:

    That tells me that Graphene will be shoehorned into GS in some way, my guess is a new GS down road in the near future.

    I'm not sure why you think that, but the statement means exactly what was posted. It was something that was very much in development, then we had a leadership change that required some strategic refocusing, and in the wake of that, Graphene was put on hold. This kind of thing happens in companies all the time, it's just not always communicated as transparently to the customers.

    I don't feel like looking up everything from the recent past. It is obvious that this was handled very badly. Any time there is a united front from devs, then a turn-around by the same team, users feel shorted.

    Also not sure why a "united front from devs" has a negative connotation here. If anything, it should convey the fact that from management down to development, everyone understands the new plan and is executing on that plan. But if that makes you less comfortable than dissenting posts, our apologies :)

    Reading through these threads it seems to me that the price change isn't what users are upset about- it is the extremely short notice. Most of this won't make sense to most, only to those that are actively reading forums and have a memory of what they read yesterday.

    I don't disagree and have said as much in other threads, but as I mentioned in that thread (and as evidenced by the much faster release schedule), we are operating on a much shorter, more agile cycle and course correcting as necessary based on data and customer feedback. It's going to be a culture shock to some, but we're doing what we feel is best at this point in the process.

    Does this mean that you were part of the original company that developed GS before it was GS? Or does this mean you guys have sunk 1 million + hours into GS since it was bought as a finished product?
    Either way it is very telling as to how things are behind the scenes.

    It means that this product has been in development for 8 years and has had a lot of people working on it over the years. It means that a lot of different strategies have been tried and the problem set of what this product has tried to solve is very, very large.

    Another thing that I am waiting for is when the Home page for GS will get a change- when will the 750,000+ developers be reduced?

    At the moment, there would be no reason for that to be reduced since that number is actually higher now, and all of those folks have access to the free trial and can subscribe, but to your point, this metric was a lot more important when the product was a free to use service, so it'll probably be addressed during the next marketing pass.

    With that said, we're focusing more on serving existing customers than changing numbers on the homepage.

    A hobby of mine is to watch how long devs manipulate stats to keep their numbers up.

    That sounds like a very sad hobby to me, but to each their own!

    My main hope for users is a cohesive and up-to-date program and teaching.

    You're in luck! That's exactly what we're focused on!

    Dan Magaha · COO · GameSalad, Inc · danm@gamesalad.com

  • So now I will have no access to the games I made when it was free? Those were my beloved creations and now I won't get to play them again?

  • LovejoyLovejoy Member Posts: 2,078

    @fredricks0nmacgee@gmail.com said:
    So now I will have no access to the games I made when it was free? Those were my beloved creations and now I won't get to play them again?

    With GS Basic or Pro you can still have access to them.

    Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una

  • The_Un_ForgivenThe_Un_Forgiven Member Posts: 18

    @AlchimiaStudios

    How many years have you been in a managerial/executive position dealing directly with the video game industry or software development again?

    None. However, I have personally helped with the development of several games so to speak, League of Legends being one of them.

    Of those times, have you ever been hired to salvage or significantly improve the current project?

    I have been tossed in the middle of countless projects, in real life and the general gaming world.
    I have never missed my mark!

    What about releasing a game? Done that one?

    I have been a part of many Betas and helped significantly on development and release, not my own, but the best I can do.

    So a little more about myself, before any of this, im probably one of the smartest people you will ever encounter, I’m a jack of all trades, and there is not much I have not dabled in.
    Just an FYI @The_Gamesalad_Guru Ive been working since I was around 8, going around the neighbourhood collecting glass pop bottles when they were worth .40 cents for the small ones and .60 cents for the large ones. Cutting grass/shoveling driveways from snow, raking leaves etc etc since I was 12. The details are more of the elaborate ones. Oh and im now 33

    1. I've worked as a mechanics since I was 14 and still do all my own/friends/family work to date.
    2. I’ve been a key help with owner/operator in the restaurant from 14-20
    3. I’ve been doing general contracting since 16 which was in between the restaurant venture and somewhat till present date. In details I can build a house/garage/structure "with blueprints" from scratch, minus the concrete pad.
    4. I’m a confined space attendant and was rated #1 in my city last year. Its a very simple, but not very easy getting #1.
    5. Im certified mine rescue. 2yrs and running.
      6 I’ve been working towards coordinator for these projects, however, with my current full time job my rescue/attending and coordinating has been put on hold. This coordinating is for Crusher Plants, Acid Plants, Ore Mills/Flotation and the list goes on and on. Not a job for just anyone.
    6. Whats really new is the training we just had, our trainer pulled me aside and said I need to go further because of my knowledge and understand. He is now looking into high angle and air rescue for me.
    7. Im one of the quickest developers in my company.
    8. I had abit of a street life that we wont go into detail about. We will leave it at really good street smarts ;)

    Two years ago I was looking at apply at The Art Institute of Vancouver. One of the really cool things about that school is you get to personally talk to the professor that would be teaching you. The professor was asking why I had not been in game development sooner, one of a kind he believed. So much so that he wanted to offer me a scholarship, however the school couldn't fund it and I was way out of bounds of what it would have costed for what I wanted to do.

    The feats i've conquered and the stories I could tell you about my online gaming experience would take forever to cover. I can however tell you this, and this is why I am currently in the retail business. I know people, I read people, and I understand people on a level that is apparently inhuman. This is a bad move for GS, and there is a MUCH better way.

    @bktennis12

    @The_Un_Forgiven so what type of payment structure would you be happy with?? It seems like you feel that gs should be free while people are learning and developing their game and then if they want to publish it should be pay... is that kind of how you feel??

    Sorry I didn't see this post before, I was waiting for this question from the start.
    Its like I have been saying time and time again “There is a much better way”
    I personally can think of a MUCH more productive, fair for the developers lucrative way.
    However, I am not their financial advisor, they seem smart enough and stand by their decision.
    When I first came to GS their moto seemed to be “Take as long as you want to learn, its free” to “It will now cost you”
    Gamesalad should be free to learn, and pay to publish.
    People will say “Well it wasn't working before”, that's only because it was done wrong.
    Ill go back to I work retail, and im #1 in the company for a reason.
    Everything is about your presentation and when to drop the hammer.
    There is no presentation for GS anymore, pay to play, or even better, its a pay to win mind set now.
    It should be free to publish, but free to learn and create AT YOUR OWN PACE.

    @The_Gamesalad_Guru

    This is the hallmark of successful* people. This is how the rags to riches stories start. To assume people are entitled because they worked hard and payed their dues to acquire* a skill that makes them money, what ever that skill might be, is an ignorant statement.

    That hallmark is now gone, that rags to riches is no longer available.
    People like you don't care about the little guys, you had your chance to learn for free, you have done your time. You're done and already generating revenue, your free to learn time has paid itself off and now whatever you have already made “on the free time” will counter the new pay to win methods. WAIT WAIT, you either, One payed for pro to start before you learned “I highly doubt” Or two, being a “guru” you already had so sort of programing knowledge before you came to GS and didn't need much time to learn.
    Im going to say you were once like myself, back when it was free to learn.
    There is a better way.

    @GameMonster

    gamesalad isn't a game, its a game making program. BIG difference buddy.

    But that's where you're* wrong, it is a game. Its a game that allows you to build other games. Yes its much more detailed, kinda reminds me of EvE to be honest. So much you could do.

    id hire you to piss off people for no apparent reason. cus you seem good at it.

    Its a meta I practice daily. However, I don't piss people off for no apparent reason. I only piss people off when I am right. Its pretty hard to prove me wrong too ;)

    swear to god if mention league of legends one more time, i'm going to throw something at you

    League of Legends has been deemed a benchmark for video game sports. LOL would not have nearly the amount of players it has if it was not free to play, nor would their be those players that have very little in their lives and because Legends themselves. LOL gives everyone and anyone the chance to becoming a part of something greater, to be part of a move that's revolutionary to the video game industry. You don't need a secret decoder ring, you don't need a badge, you don't need a ticket, you don't need a pass. All you need is you and a simple PC.

    Why do I feel like im talking to that 6 year old you still are? Shall I pull out the crayons?

    @CodeWizard

    @WebWarrior Well said! I love it when the company vision is so well understood!

    Its always more well understood when your already a member or part of a team.
    A leader should be confident in all they say and do.

    Would love to got to even more detail but I just realized at how much time I just wasted in writing all this. Im just gunna find something else, and when this becomes free to edit, I will be back.

    Free to edit, pay publish, kinda a no brainer on this one.
    I never realized it was free to publish before too, now thats just stupid lol.
    Its just as bad as pay to learn.

  • ant_ladant_lad Member Posts: 222

    "So a little more about myself, before any of this, im probably one of the smartest people you will ever encounter"
    Do you know what a 'true genius' is?

  • LovejoyLovejoy Member Posts: 2,078

    @ant_lad said:
    "So a little more about myself, before any of this, im probably one of the smartest people you will ever encounter"

    Mix it up with " I read people, and I understand people on a level that is apparently inhuman.

    It appears we should all bow down to this perfect specimen

    Fortuna Infortuna Forti Una

  • GeorgeGSGeorgeGS Member, PRO Posts: 478

    @The_Un_Forgiven said:
    Ill go back to I work retail, and im #1 in the company for a reason.

    You were #5 a few days ago. Congratulations on moving up.

    I worked on League of Legends as well, perhaps we know each other.

  • IceboxIcebox Member Posts: 1,484

    @The_Un_Forgiven love how humble you are :)

  • ArmellineArmelline Member, PRO Posts: 5,191
    edited July 2015

    @The_Un_Forgiven In all of your posts and all of your arguments and all of your self-aggrandising comments and all of your patronising comments, you've not actually said why you can't or won't pay $20 a month to use the software. Not really. You are a highly experience and very successful person, presumably with at least $20 of disposable income a month. Either the software is worth $20 a month or not. If it is worth $20 a month, just pay the money. If it's not, how can it possibly be worth spending these hours debating about it? Based on your glowing resume, your time is worth far more than $20 an hour.

    im probably one of the smartest people you will ever encounter

    I've never heard a smart person say this. Literally not one. And generally speaking, smart people have learned to spell "I'm".

    Edit: Holy crap, I actually just read the big post above that I'd missed before, and now pulled the quote from. It's like some kind of satire. Kudos for being the most talented person in the world. Just a shame 15 days is too little for you to learn GameSalad in, given your mastery of so many other disciplines. Slightly curious as to why you're even using GameSalad, though, if you're the game design savant you claim to be. Please keep posting, though, this is top-notch entertainment.

  • jigglybeanjigglybean Member Posts: 1,584

    @The_Un_Forgiven said:
    Your fight is as well invalid.

    You can't compare a game that offers IAPs to a product like Gamesalad. This has to be THE dumbest comparison I have ever seen in my life.

    Does Gamesalad offer a selection of champions or related items that you can skin? NO
    Does gamesalad offer any kind of boosts or related items? NO

    The world of software is changing either adapt, or go and use something else. If you are serious about game development, it shouldn't come free.

    Like Balls? Then click here! We've 100 coming soon

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