It has been really interesting getting everyone's take on this. The more I digest all of this the more I agree with FMG. If iAds is so easy to add I would think we will be seeing way more competition in the free game categories making it that much harder to get in to the top 100 of any free category so I can't see iAds making much money on mediocre apps. I personally have never used online leader boards or any other gamecenter type features so I can't see how this is going to help me much. I have no idea what an array is (some sort of list of numbers, right?) and I can't even say that other word that starts with c the joe was talking about, but I feel that what will help us all make better games (and therefore more money) is a more robust game engine. So being able to have twice as many moving actors as we currently can have would be awesome! Timers that fire more consistently. Random that is really random. Z index so we know what actors are above other actors. etc.
These types of features help us make better games.
iAds, Gamecenter, inapp purchases - these are just gimmicks if you ask me.
Where to start.....first this is tricky ipads are not 24inch iMacs and my brain is fried but god is it good to see some of the hero worship finally subsiding from the more skilled members of this community. I have watched for months as a frustrating forum system (why re invent the wheel) and woefully unready for mass use piece of software has been praised to the heavens by often very young people desperate to jump on the app store gold rush gravy train.
Yes GS is fantastic....but it needs one he'll of a lot of work before it can sit alongside the average Mac app and play properly and look like it got the same invitation to the party that all good solid OS X apps enjoy being at.(it wasn,t fancy dress)
gendai should make it open source and make it big, they would double their income in six months through support and consultancy.
Anyway off to bed, got 1200 Yachts to watch racing and report on in 2 hours!
Ps doesn't that air smell better now Tshirt?
Pps Star Daze is Fecking Brilliant:)......true talent lovely art work
Everyone seems to be thinking of GS as an iPhone/iPad only tool. I fully intend to sell games for Mac and there are two features that are sorely lacking.
PAUSE GAMEPAD SUPPORT
I guess I could put a message in my games that reads "to use a gamepad, go and buy USB overdrive".... nah.
@FMG I think that iAd and GameCenter are majorly important updates, and even though some may dismiss the idea of having ads in their games, it could really generate some income for developers here whose apps that are "paid" may not be generating enough income.
I have several plans for using iAds. I'll still continue to make .99c apps, but there are some apps that I feel will benefit greatly from making them free and integrating iAds.
So fingers crossed that this makes it in soon because I think it will benefit developers hugely whom otherwise get lost in the sea of apps.
butterbean said: @FMG I think that iAd and GameCenter are majorly important updates, and even though some may dismiss the idea of having ads in their games, it could really generate some income for developers here whose apps that are "paid" may not be generating enough income.
I have several plans for using iAds. I'll still continue to make .99c apps, but there are some apps that I feel will benefit greatly from making them free and integrating iAds.
So fingers crossed that this makes it in soon because I think it will benefit developers hugely whom otherwise get lost in the sea of apps.
I just think everyone is going to to use the same strategy with iAds and the sea of free apps will increase tenfold resulting in lower DL rates and little income from iAds.
scitunes said: I just think everyone is going to to use the same strategy with iAds and the sea of free apps will increase tenfold resulting in lower DL rates and little income from iAds.
That is true, and the paid app store is likewise. Have you seen the amount of shovelware that comes in everyday? I really don't think it's any different than paid apps.
The key thing is knowing which apps will climb the charts and do well free with iAds versus just leaving them as paid.
If however, a dev decides to be a lemming and just release shovelware like everyone else, well then they won't benefit.
I don't think that philosophy is any different in the paid store versus free.
Wouldn't the easy answer be for Gendai to take our *.gameproj files, and convert them to ugly generic xcode source, and then let us insert whatever new features we'd like to be responsible for implementing?
That way they could concentrate on making the GS editor perfect and giving us the headaches of implementing the Pausing, in-App Purchasing, iAd, GameCenter, Social Networking and whatever else we want to program. They would not have to stress over adding these generically.
I just dont see why they cant split development time between improving the engine/interface and adding the "bolt on bits" like GameCenter and (hiss boo) iAds.
I dont see why theyre so afraid of giving us a proper roadmap, listing what features they plan to implement, and a rough date of when to expect them. They must work to inhouse tasklists and schedules, so they must have some idea.
One of the biggest issues for me is investment of time into learning the software, and building games with it. I NEED to know what features will be going in, and when, so that I can plan my work. If Gendai simply arent willing to give us that information, then it really does make my time investment a very questionable risk, and if the improvements and features simply arent going to ever be implemented, then its a waste of my time continuing with the software.
I like GameSalad a lot.... but thats not enough. I need to know that we have a viable future together.
I need to know that my investment isnt going to end up being wasted. Am I better off investing the time into a more complicated, but far more robust and feature complete set of tools like Unity, Shiva or one of the many other newcomers.
So yup... Gendai...stop with the hiding, and being vague all the time and step up, and give us more confidence in your product. You have a Pro version... that you sell for far more than competing tools.... so start acting like professionals, and start supporting your developers properly.
Yes, were hassling you.... but its only because we want to have a better tool, with better support, so we can build better games, which in turn, brings more paying developers to your door.
scitunes said: It has been really interesting getting everyone's take on this. The more I digest all of this the more I agree with FMG. If iAds is so easy to add I would think we will be seeing way more competition in the free game categories making it that much harder to get in to the top 100 of any free category so I can't see iAds making much money on mediocre apps. I personally have never used online leader boards or any other gamecenter type features so I can't see how this is going to help me much. I have no idea what an array is (some sort of list of numbers, right?) and I can't even say that other word that starts with c the joe was talking about, but I feel that what will help us all make better games (and therefore more money) is a more robust game engine. So being able to have twice as many moving actors as we currently can have would be awesome! Timers that fire more consistently. Random that is really random. Z index so we know what actors are above other actors. etc.
These types of features help us make better games.
iAds, Gamecenter, inapp purchases - these are just gimmicks if you ask me.
I'll concede the points on iAds. I think everyone seems to to think this will be an awesome revenue stream, but the fact is you need a good game that would've made a decent amount of money in the first place for it to be effective.
However, you can surely see the benefits of of GameCenter and In-App purchase? Gimmick or not, a lot of people love having the online high scores to compete against their friends. And since multiplayer isn't possible (nor do I think it should be added) the online high scores add re-playability to the game. Games also consistently get rated down because of the lack of this feature.
As for In-App purchase, I've read numerous success stories about how adding In-App purchases has increased sales threefold and more, and these usually aren't the same sort of random success stories we so often read about iPhone games (doodle jump, iShoot, etc.) If you lurk the Developer section of Touch Arcade there are plenty, I just don't want to search for them. Additionally, the developer can keep putting their efforts into updating their single product, and could consequentially improve the quality of the games being made.
That being said, I don't think In-app-purchase will ever be added. Probably a bit too difficult to implement for the return to us, and there are much bigger fish to fry.
And hey, I am all for arrays being added and a slew
However, I never really
Started typing this when I was sober, forgot to press send, take this for what its worth.
Eastbound+Tshirtbooth (two of the greatest members at this forum) are disappointed with GS. Many others including me are too. the past 3 updates offered have not been any use to me and for many others. what we maybe should have is 1 update with stability/fixes/adjustments.... and the following month an update made ONLY to please us and get us the features we would like then the month. after that stability/fixes... and then features... then stability, then features.... that is, i think, the minimum we expect from you.
Personally I think we're lucky to get these big pic posts at all.
And $99 a year for the tool is a bargain, even without the things we all want added.
Say there are 3 permanent staff on GS. (I have no idea) A very average wage for an IT professional is around 55k. So every year they need 550 subscriptions per person to survive. And maybe a few $2000 subscriptions to pay for the legals and hosting and blah.
The only way they can be doing this is with other part time jobs, or with LOTS of cheap 2 minute noodles and offices in share houses. So I say, give the guys a break. Well done GS, you're doing great IMO. I hope one day I can be in a cool startup like yourselves.
ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM - USB GAMEPAD!!!!!! Seriously, a game tool for producing games on Mac and NO JOYSTICK/JOYPAD SUPPORT? Is no one else with me on this? I seriously see Steam and the likes as a much more viable way to make money than the ridiculously over-populated App Store (although I'll be releasing there too). Granted, you need top quality titles but I'm not here to put out pieces of crap Gendai, please don't forget the poor old Mac!
Tris said: And $99 a year for the tool is a bargain, even without the things we all want added.
Ah, but your statement reveals a larger concern. Perhaps Gendai Games realized what you stated. They'd need a lot of subscriptions to keep the lights on... A LOT. Are there that many developers out there that use GameSalad? I don't know. But when I see top features not being supported, it shows a downward trend. GameSalad was a leader with iPad support. But with iAds and GameCenter, huge features for mobile games, it's not going to be updated as quick? That's concerning to me. It makes me wonder about the future of GameSalad. If they shut down suddenly, the software is basically useless... since we can't publish the games ourselves.
POLYGAMe said: ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM - USB GAMEPAD!!!!!! Seriously, a game tool for producing games on Mac and NO JOYSTICK/JOYPAD SUPPORT? Is no one else with me on this?
I generally do not use game controllers with PC games. Couldn't you just map the controller to the keyboard equivalent buttons anyway?
It's hard to release a game on steam. I've read some threads on the subject. Most indiedevs get rejected. Unless you have an polished gem, you should forget it. Sometimes they don't even reply to you mails. Thats the good/bad thing about appstore, (almost) all games get published.
I didn't mean to say that leader boards aren't important for sales as I have seen reviews complaining about the lack of them. I just meant that for me it doesn't matter as a player. I have never been like "Sweet! I just beat joeshmoe98's doodle jump score!" I have said to my self "Oh !@#$%, there are 80 red dots about to destroy my little arrow! How do I get out of this jam?!" My point is that I'm tired of constantly coming up with workarounds due to only being able to have a limited number of moving actors in a scene. I want to be able to make games that are incredibly fun to play (Like Tilt to Live IMO). Leaderboards can have the effect of giving people an incentive to play your game over and over, but no one is going to play a crappy or boring game just to beat their friend. I'm just saying that I think we may have the cart before the horse. I'd rather have a more powerful game engine that allows us to build even better games (currently a lot of people are putting out some really great stuff). To me that should be the priority.
I also think that multiple browser support for web games could be a way for us to market our games. I can see posting links on facebook to my website where people could play a couple of levels online and then click a link to purchase the full game for their iDevice. So I admit to that I also have my little add-ons that I want, too!
dhondon said: It's hard to release a game on steam. I've read some threads on the subject. Most indiedevs get rejected. Unless you have an polished gem, you should forget it. Sometimes they don't even reply to you mails. Thats the good/bad thing about appstore, (almost) all games get published.
Well, I reckon I'll have a decent chance with this game and even if not, I still want gamepad support.
@Photics - Yes, you can map controllers but only through extra third party software like USB Overdrive, unless the pad comes with the tools to do it. Most do not. And playing a fast paced arcade shoot'em up with the keyboard is out of the question.
I think the number of users with gamepads for their computers are in the minority. Most people who like controller type games use the xbox etc. It would certainly be cool as a "nice to have" but I wouldn't think you'd get more than 2% of the market with them.
GS get no income from non iPhone/iPad apps that I know of - so it'll be pretty far down the list I expect.
On another note - I'd love to be able to get access to the system clock. Could make games where you regen energy over time. Or wait for crops to grow. And many many other cool things.
I have to say I like the drag n drop interface but that's where it stops with me.
The documation for creating some of the variables and functions is non existant and compared to some of the other stuff out there, the only thing GS has going for it is the drag n drop but since you have to spend hours trying to figure out code to make your game do what you want, you might as well learn Lua and be able to port the game to various platforms for the same price of 99.00 bucks a year with Corona.
I've already signed up and am playing with Lua but hope to see GS really come through with some solid stuff in the future.
It's more than just drag & drop... the physics and the particle effects are amazing with GameSalad.
I just looked at the Corona Roadmap and I saw this... "Support for landscape orientation (Android)"
Wow... if that's a new feature, that's pretty underwhelming to me. With GameSalad I just click, click, done... auto-rotational support. Corona is interesting for cross-platform support... but iAds is off in the distant future and Game Center isn't even on the list.
Nope, Corona just doesn't seem as good to me right now.
The popular consensus around here is that if GameSalad had iAds and Game Center, we'd be too busy to complain (probably off counting our money somewhere) and then Gendai Games could peacefully work on things like stability and optimization.
Lol. I guess, since it's still beta, they should be working on speed and stability first and foremost. We just want everything at once! Poor old Gendai... can't keep everyone happy!
The idea behind GameSalad has always been to make game development accessible to the widest audience possible, to make it easy, and to make it fun!
We believe a great product or game is created out of a great experience. GameSalad is not about features. We don't want to just add features, we want to enhance the experience. We only want to add features any new user can pick up quickly and that makes existing users feel good about our product.
A great experience requires a stable base to build upon, which is why we're spending time on stability and reliability. Unstable tools break a user's flow and destroys the experience.
In this current Big Picture, we wanted to make sure you had a heads up for the next few releases since iOS 4.0 is going to be such a big thing for everybody. We have resources dedicated to iOS 4.0 and will be getting those to you over the next few releases.
We want to make sure to do them right, make them easy to use, and to make sure they're working on a stable base.
adent42Key Master, Head Chef, Executive Chef, Member, PROPosts: 3,069
The idea behind GameSalad has always been to make game development accessible to the widest audience possible, to make it easy, and to make it fun!
We believe a great product or game is created out of a great experience. GameSalad is not about features. We don't want to just add features, we want to enhance the experience. We only want to add features any new user can pick up quickly and that makes existing users feel good about our product.
A great experience requires a stable base to build upon, which is why we're spending time on stability and reliability. Unstable tools break a user's flow and destroys the experience.
In this current Big Picture, we wanted to make sure you had a heads up for the next few releases since iOS 4.0 is going to be such a big thing for everybody. We have resources dedicated to iOS 4.0 and will be getting those to you over the next few releases.
We want to make sure to do them right, make them easy to use, and to make sure they're working on a stable base.
Comments
These types of features help us make better games.
iAds, Gamecenter, inapp purchases - these are just gimmicks if you ask me.
Yes GS is fantastic....but it needs one he'll of a lot of work before it can sit alongside the average Mac app and play properly and look like it got the same invitation to the party that all good solid OS X apps enjoy being at.(it wasn,t fancy dress)
gendai should make it open source and make it big, they would double their income in six months through support and consultancy.
Anyway off to bed, got 1200 Yachts to watch racing and report on in 2 hours!
Ps doesn't that air smell better now Tshirt?
Pps Star Daze is Fecking Brilliant:)......true talent lovely art work
PAUSE
GAMEPAD SUPPORT
I guess I could put a message in my games that reads "to use a gamepad, go and buy USB overdrive".... nah.
I have several plans for using iAds. I'll still continue to make .99c apps, but there are some apps that I feel will benefit greatly from making them free and integrating iAds.
So fingers crossed that this makes it in soon because I think it will benefit developers hugely whom otherwise get lost in the sea of apps.
SO GIVE ME USB GAMEPAD SUPPORT, PLEASE!
I want to release my game on Steam
The key thing is knowing which apps will climb the charts and do well free with iAds versus just leaving them as paid.
If however, a dev decides to be a lemming and just release shovelware like everyone else, well then they won't benefit.
I don't think that philosophy is any different in the paid store versus free.
That way they could concentrate on making the GS editor perfect and giving us the headaches of implementing the Pausing, in-App Purchasing, iAd, GameCenter, Social Networking and whatever else we want to program. They would not have to stress over adding these generically.
Maybe that could actually satisfy all of us!
I dont see why theyre so afraid of giving us a proper roadmap, listing what features they plan to implement, and a rough date of when to expect them. They must work to inhouse tasklists and schedules, so they must have some idea.
One of the biggest issues for me is investment of time into learning the software, and building games with it. I NEED to know what features will be going in, and when, so that I can plan my work. If Gendai simply arent willing to give us that information, then it really does make my time investment a very questionable risk, and if the improvements and features simply arent going to ever be implemented, then its a waste of my time continuing with the software.
I like GameSalad a lot.... but thats not enough. I need to know that we have a viable future together.
I need to know that my investment isnt going to end up being wasted. Am I better off investing the time into a more complicated, but far more robust and feature complete set of tools like Unity, Shiva or one of the many other newcomers.
So yup... Gendai...stop with the hiding, and being vague all the time and step up, and give us more confidence in your product. You have a Pro version... that you sell for far more than competing tools.... so start acting like professionals, and start supporting your developers properly.
Yes, were hassling you.... but its only because we want to have a better tool, with better support, so we can build better games, which in turn, brings more paying developers to your door.
However, you can surely see the benefits of of GameCenter and In-App purchase? Gimmick or not, a lot of people love having the online high scores to compete against their friends. And since multiplayer isn't possible (nor do I think it should be added) the online high scores add re-playability to the game. Games also consistently get rated down because of the lack of this feature.
As for In-App purchase, I've read numerous success stories about how adding In-App purchases has increased sales threefold and more, and these usually aren't the same sort of random success stories we so often read about iPhone games (doodle jump, iShoot, etc.) If you lurk the Developer section of Touch Arcade there are plenty, I just don't want to search for them. Additionally, the developer can keep putting their efforts into updating their single product, and could consequentially improve the quality of the games being made.
That being said, I don't think In-app-purchase will ever be added. Probably a bit too difficult to implement for the return to us, and there are much bigger fish to fry.
And hey, I am all for arrays being added and a slew
However, I never really
Started typing this when I was sober, forgot to press send, take this for what its worth.
Many others including me are too.
the past 3 updates offered have not been any use to me and for many others.
what we maybe should have is 1 update with stability/fixes/adjustments.... and the following month an update made ONLY to please us and get us the features we would like then the month. after that stability/fixes... and then features... then stability, then features....
that is, i think, the minimum we expect from you.
And $99 a year for the tool is a bargain, even without the things we all want added.
Say there are 3 permanent staff on GS. (I have no idea) A very average wage for an IT professional is around 55k. So every year they need 550 subscriptions per person to survive. And maybe a few $2000 subscriptions to pay for the legals and hosting and blah.
The only way they can be doing this is with other part time jobs, or with LOTS of cheap 2 minute noodles and offices in share houses. So I say, give the guys a break. Well done GS, you're doing great IMO. I hope one day I can be in a cool startup like yourselves.
I also think that multiple browser support for web games could be a way for us to market our games. I can see posting links on facebook to my website where people could play a couple of levels online and then click a link to purchase the full game for their iDevice. So I admit to that I also have my little add-ons that I want, too!
But more robust game engine first, please!
@Photics - Yes, you can map controllers but only through extra third party software like USB Overdrive, unless the pad comes with the tools to do it. Most do not. And playing a fast paced arcade shoot'em up with the keyboard is out of the question.
GS get no income from non iPhone/iPad apps that I know of - so it'll be pretty far down the list I expect.
On another note - I'd love to be able to get access to the system clock. Could make games where you regen energy over time. Or wait for crops to grow. And many many other cool things.
I really am glad that I have gamesalad to allow me make my games easily but, we need these important features.
Cheers, Weswog
...and I'm frustrated with GameSalad...
...quite the paradox! :-)
The documation for creating some of the variables and functions is non existant and compared to some of the other stuff out there, the only thing GS has going for it is the drag n drop but since you have to spend hours trying to figure out code to make your game do what you want, you might as well learn Lua and be able to port the game to various platforms for the same price of 99.00 bucks a year with Corona.
I've already signed up and am playing with Lua but hope to see GS really come through with some solid stuff in the future.
I just looked at the Corona Roadmap and I saw this...
"Support for landscape orientation (Android)"
Wow... if that's a new feature, that's pretty underwhelming to me. With GameSalad I just click, click, done... auto-rotational support. Corona is interesting for cross-platform support... but iAds is off in the distant future and Game Center isn't even on the list.
Nope, Corona just doesn't seem as good to me right now.
The popular consensus around here is that if GameSalad had iAds and Game Center, we'd be too busy to complain (probably off counting our money somewhere) and then Gendai Games could peacefully work on things like stability and optimization.
We believe a great product or game is created out of a great experience. GameSalad is not about features. We don't want to just add features, we want to enhance the experience. We only want to add features any new user can pick up quickly and that makes existing users feel good about our product.
A great experience requires a stable base to build upon, which is why we're spending time on stability and reliability. Unstable tools break a user's flow and destroys the experience.
In this current Big Picture, we wanted to make sure you had a heads up for the next few releases since iOS 4.0 is going to be such a big thing for everybody. We have resources dedicated to iOS 4.0 and will be getting those to you over the next few releases.
We want to make sure to do them right, make them easy to use, and to make sure they're working on a stable base.
We believe a great product or game is created out of a great experience. GameSalad is not about features. We don't want to just add features, we want to enhance the experience. We only want to add features any new user can pick up quickly and that makes existing users feel good about our product.
A great experience requires a stable base to build upon, which is why we're spending time on stability and reliability. Unstable tools break a user's flow and destroys the experience.
In this current Big Picture, we wanted to make sure you had a heads up for the next few releases since iOS 4.0 is going to be such a big thing for everybody. We have resources dedicated to iOS 4.0 and will be getting those to you over the next few releases.
We want to make sure to do them right, make them easy to use, and to make sure they're working on a stable base.