@pHghost
You are totally missing my point.
I'm concerned with the future roadmap and what Gamesalad will be as a commercial tool as high school learning logic don't have the need for the same features
And yes! thinking of anything that could go wrong is the way to prepare for anything and bulletproof yourself against unforeseen problems as much as you can.
My intuition is telling me, Gamesalad might not be a viable option to release games to the world for much longer.
Even veterans are starting to leave hint, hint!?!
So I'm learning c++ and blueprints in Unreal.
Yet i hope i'm completely wrong
But if I'm unfortunately right i'll be ready to move then.
Until then I ll still be using Gamesalad.
Part of the problem is that the communication from GS to the community has been horrible for a long time. Seems like there was a staff member dedicated to the forums a couple years back and communication was awesome but then again maybe I dreamed that.
'Can you, (or Lost_Oasis_Games, or anyone) actually detail what it is that a developer might want that a high school kid, after one year of GS, would not also want?'
Here's 3 things that have absolutely no use to educational users:
Marketing tools (social media links and functionality)
Retention tools (Google Play services etc...)
Monetisation support (Chartboost, reward videos etc...)
These three are absolutely essential to have any hope of commercial success as an indie developer yet have absolutely no use for someone teaching GameSalad for the purposes of introducing kids to basic programming logic etc...
I'm afraid I have to agree with @blob on a LOT of things he is saying. As regards the product being safe and secure, hmm... Remember a while ago, GS improvements were going to be dropped on a back boiler for a little idea called Graphine?, that it looked 99% like we were going to be asked to pay AGAIN for? - The 'exciting' news that we were given, after being told that good things were coming, after waiting YEARS for features and fixes?
Do people not remember the sh#tstorm with the EXACT (completely warranted IMHO) same feelings about that? - how our GAMESALAD subscription money (which, let's face it - on a per-developer basis, HAS to be bringing (or has brought) a practically obscene amount of money in for the company to seemingly fritter away over the years) for a buggy, badly-maintained product was going to help ANOTHER product that we were looking like we would have to pay SEPARATELY for? - if it's such a struggle to maintain this product, with what seems NO staff overheads (alright, a handful maybe), and a HUGE recurring revenue/revenue base, then what the **** are they doing with the money?!
To be honest, I still LOVE the idea (if not the current state) of Gamesalad, and with a community of trusted, possibly contracted, capable and passionate devs working on it, I'd imagine it would get VERY professional, VERY streamlined, VERY quickly, but hey, that will (understandably, given its golden goose status) NEVER happen... Basically, this company seems to be more fickle than a child - constantly going after the next big thing/idea, without any concern for the people who PAY to make the company profitable (and I have NO illusions that it IS profitable, I think the number of Pro devs is probably higher than most of us are aware), then we're told off like naughty children or troublecausing upstarts and naysayers, by sanctimonious people who aren't even GS staff, despite the fact that, make no bones about it, we ARE supporters, and indeed INVESTORS, in this product - we invest money, time, long-term effort and commitment, and told that we have no right to demand a working piece of software that will be supported for a LONG time, and will be improved beyond the bug-riddled, clunky, crashing (and now downright BROKEN) BETA level software that it still is after all of these years and subscription fees poured into it!
I'm sorry, but GS decisions really do seem to be, as Blob points out, all about getting the most from that golden goose, without feeding, watering or protecting it. Every time some sweeping statement about the company's next big direction/plan comes out, it is never, EVER about improving the very thing that is the current sole reason for the company's existence, for the REASONS (PRO Subscribers, and now paying BASIC ones) that should really, REALLY matter.
In NO other walk of life have I put my money, and so much heart and soul into something in order to be able to use it and see it succeed as IT DESERVES TO if handled properly, only to be disappointed again and again and again - some smartass will almost certainly say yet again "Okay then, leave!", but really? - this is such a childish response - I (and many others, pretty much TIED ourselves to GS when we adopted it, poured blood,sweat and tears, not to mention THOUSANDS of crashes along the way - and people here know I do not jest - it's MUCH better now, but was horrendous years ago - so yeah, a fact of life with GS), but yeah, we wired our brains for it, and invested years into learning it despite its quirks and many, many problems, loving it and hating it in equal measures, because we have dreams of becoming successful indies, or at least respected for our games. As such, no, I'd rather not go elsewhere, but TBH, I personally (and I'm gathering many others on here) are feeling VERY let down by these latest developments... Custom fonts, logic importing from projects? - sorry, no resources/time... dragging behaviours from one actor to another, with same attributes, to save time... same again, sorry. All of these really are straightforward, yet massively productivity-enhancing, time-saving fixes and improvements, yet even these are STILL outstanding, as are bugs from YEARS back. Having the lack of ANY actor/element importing or merging of projects built-in to GS (and the immense effort as such, to even get re-usable elements into a new project) is pretty unforgivable, and the ONLY reason that I could merge projects at one point was because at least Deep Blue made a few apps to do it (which no longer work in my current GS version, so I am now completely screwed to import whole chunks of game, online, high score, etc logic...) - talk about making life harder?
Basically, I cannot possibly see how OUR combined annual subscription fees are so low as to hardly be worth mentioning as warranting some level of expectation, and instead GS claim to be requiring a need to diversify and possibly overstretch/risk what's left, by going after markets that may well prove the end of the line if you are unsuccessful, as opposed to fixing the damn thing PROPERLY, making it faster to do manual changes etc, re-use or import assets and complex or custom behaviours, and ensuring that it's generally a viable product alternative for those who currently wouldn't touch it with a bargepole?! - Surely if THAT was prioritised a while ago, you wouldn't be in this mess now?
Like others, I LOVE the idea of what GS COULD BE, if it was developed in the same way any sane company would do so - PAYING users supported/looked after/listened to when they suggest product improving fixes and enhancements, frequently fixed/improved product, updated with GOOD QA, ie. less broken functionality that well, really shouldn't be at risk of being broken with each (unrelated fixes) build... and really... ONE developer left since whenever, and the maximum rate (or not) that one developer can improve a massively multi-user subscribed product to satisfactory levels? - let's be realistic - unsurprising nothing seems to be happening for months, really.... sigh...
I'm currently working on 3 projects in GS, and tbh, this, like others, is making me seriously check into the alternatives to see just how viable the jump is - not impressed at all....
Welcome Brent. As a developer who's used GameSalad off & on(mainly on) for 5+ years I must say that this new direction is interesting to say the least. I'm glad GS isn't closing down or fading away, but I'm concerned about the development features being pushed aside. I don't teach GS, but I do use it to develop various genres including educational. I hope this new direction can somehow greatly benefit educators, students, developers, and the users of our games & apps.
@WildSnake old CEO is now just dealing with the code of GS and nothing else. He used to do both but was finding it difficult to balance the two so he stepped down so he can do code and a few side projects.
I think he has important things to do since he just came , give him some time. He clearly said
I’ve tasked ForumNinja with being the main point of contact for the forums, so if you want us to see something be sure to tag him.
We already got a response, I hope he is busy managing and codewizard is busy fixing the bug. I prefer that than seeing them in the forums replying to every post.
@strag
Thank you for some specifics! At least now I understand what some of the real fears are.
While I can see that retention tools are not going to be top of the average high school list, I'd really disagree about the other two points. Social Media is really where it's at for kids in school: Gamesalad allows students to build publishable apps - surely they'll be clamoring for Facebook integration? And the idea of school kids being indifferent to monetisation support also unlikely - trying to monetise apps beats riding paper routes or washing cars imho, though I may be entirely wrong.
@Japster
I did wonder when someone was going to bring up the Graphene debate, though I really don't think the two situations are at all comparable, not least because we're not being asked to pay for anything different. Rearranging some priorities to favor a load of things the community are clamouring for anyway doesn't seem like an outrage.
Just as an aside, it seems a little ironic that a rant against Graphene ends up with
"less broken functionality that well, really shouldn't be at risk of being broken with each (unrelated fixes) build.."
I had the strong impression the Graphene experiment was to start again from the bottom up to build a software that wouldn't break so easily. Maybe if we'd encouraged that leap, and (-!shock!-) been prepared to pay for it, we'd have a cool, stable, fast-to-learn and operate system by now, you know, sort of like that GS we dream of...
I tried to compiled concerns here in case it gets skipped by the GS team because i mean business!
If you haven't been developing a games serioussly or invested years on game salad, if you are not intending to be a successful professional game developer...
then i will ask to please refrain to post a comment about this. Not because your opinion does not matter but simply because you are not in the same predicament and in that case you are not having the problem and concerns we are having.
Your opinion will only washout and skew the consensus and confuse GS team.
I've been working 12 hours a day for 18 month on a game not for fun but for work i intend it to be successful.
IF you are toying around which is just as cool by the way, you might not really relate to the issues below and think we are just being negative, we are not
In fact we love game salad so much that we stake our livelihood on it!
and this is why comment like stop being negative etc don;t apply
these type "happy about everything" posts aren't helping us and in the long term nor the hobbyist or The GS team
Too many arguments here are based on 2 different fractions arguing aimlessly : the hobbyists vs the pros.
So to the hobbyist:" I can assure that what we want will benefit you just as much as well as the education market"
However I can also a a assure you that what teachers want will not be enough to benefit the pro developers and the hobbyist if ever the later one becomes a pro.
SO there is no need to reply negatively to this and cut the grass under our feet if you don't understand how the New direction is a deal breaker for pros
It will only confuse and validate GS team more about what our expectations are.
@Japster said:
if it's such a struggle to maintain this product, with what seems NO staff overheads (alright, a handful maybe), and a HUGE recurring revenue/revenue base, then what the **** are they doing with the money?!
Basically, this company seems to be more fickle than a child - constantly going after the next big thing/idea, without any concern for the people who PAY to make the company profitable (and I have NO illusions that it IS profitable, I think the number of Pro devs is probably higher than most of us are aware),
<then we're told off like naughty children or troublecausing upstarts and naysayers, by sanctimonious people who aren't even GS staff, despite the fact that, make no bones about it, we ARE supporters, and indeed INVESTORS, in this product - we invest money, time, long-term effort and commitment, and told that we have no right to demand a working piece of software that will be supported for a LONG time, and will be improved beyond the bug-riddled, clunky, crashing (and now downright BROKEN) BETA level software that it still is after all of these years and subscription fees poured into it!
I'm sorry, but GS decisions really do seem to be, as Blob points out, all about getting the most from that golden goose, without feeding, watering or protecting it.
>
some smartass will almost certainly say yet again "Okay then, leave!", but really? - this is such a childish response - I (and many others, pretty much TIED ourselves to GS when we adopted it, poured blood,sweat and tears,
>
but TBH, I personally (and I'm gathering many others on here) are feeling VERY let down by these latest developments...
>
Basically, I cannot possibly see how OUR combined annual subscription fees are so low as to hardly be worth mentioning as warranting some level of expectation, and instead GS claim to be requiring a need to diversify and possibly overstretch/risk what's left, by going after markets that may well prove the end of the line if you are unsuccessful, as opposed to fixing the damn thing PROPERLY,
Like others, I LOVE the idea of what GS COULD BE, if it was developed in the same way any sane company would do so - PAYING users supported/looked after/listened to when they suggest product improving fixes and enhancements, frequently fixed/improved product, updated with GOOD QA
>
ONE developer left since whenever, and the maximum rate (or not) that one developer can improve a massively multi-user subscribed product to satisfactory levels? - let's be realistic - unsurprising nothing seems to be happening for months, really.... sigh...
I'm currently working on 3 projects in GS, and tbh, this, like others, is making me seriously check into the alternatives to see just how viable the jump is - not impressed at all....
@blob said: @ForumNinja informed us on June 6th that that the new CEO was working on formal Introduction to us.
4 days later we get this low energy, apathetic introduction which basically repeats what’s ForumNinja told us about fixing something they ought to.
1: hey guys we are gonna fix the horrible slowdown in El Capitan “ Euh we hope so, that’s common sense and it’s not news
.
3: we will benefit from education focused improvements like General usability improvements.GUI etc…
Geez, thanks! We get to benefit from something while Gamesalad is benefiting from our money, Should we clap?
The bottom line is, we pay for a service every month for which the provider just told us they will not create any features specifically for us. **
Bye bye Facebook integration, loading time improvements or new SDKs support
**They are taking our developer subscription money and reinvesting in a sales team for schools which has nothing to do with us and the reason we pay for our subscription in the first place.
Brent do you understand this is the end for many of us?
We won’t get features and improvement, we need unless the education market needs it too.
Telling us this as if it was a good new is almost condescending.
And for people who sinked so much time in this software and the veterans like @Armelline, @Lost_Oasis_Games etc who actually made this community what it is, thousands of tutorials and interaction with the community hence promoting your platform as well as helping you debugged the last release and keeping us informed while doing it when you guys didn’t bother to, for an update that was running 6 month late, it must feel really “(insert the word of your choice)” to read your introduction.
>
Same feeling goes for this post from @ForumNinja. @ForumNinja
When we say that the new features won't benefit just the developer community, it doesn't mean that they won't benefit you guys, just that we'll focus on features that benefit both our developers and educa@ForumNinja
>
He’s saying we won’t get feature we need unless education market needs it too. Well guess what what we have entirely different needs So yes We Are Being Forgotten
Saying it straight is a less insulting that these type messages.
How long can you assure us to have or games compatible with distribution Platforms?
Also when a new IOS comes out how long will your Team of 1 part time coder take to “unrbreak game salad
And this what what our subscription fees and $10,793,000 million got us!!
As @BazookaTime said :
“Maybe I am missing something but it seems short sided to focus on education and not grow the developing side at the same time.”
or @app_sauce said:
“I think the long term success of gs is to have as many development features as possible.”
Yes, there’s a synergy between educational market and professionals.
Student want to emulate pros, they want the same tools
even in high school, when Gamesalad is no longer being developped, how long do you think school will keep your software in the classroom before they switch to something fresher with new feature that provides the “oh so important” dream of making a real working game by the end of the semester as motivation for their students?
With 1 part-time coder working once in a while on new features you guys will fall so behind that even releasing to the App Store will be unviable for school projects.
Nowadays company are much closer to their customers, they inform on their business trial and tribulations etc… You guys are cultivating a “Russian cold war attitude”.
We deserve better.
**
The education focus seem to be a last push strategy:__
The pressure is coming from the top: which is whoever invested the $10,793,000 millions in their 3 rounds of fundings
I think Brent could be more straight forward.
This community is amazing, Many invested a lot of money and time on game salad, we all have projects, we have to make plans for. We deserve to know how long GameSalad will be supported.
How long can you guys keep the company going.
If the education focus does not work out how long do we have?
When a software dies the least they can do for their users is to be straight forward .
(For example: Uscript for unity will no longer be supported …
This is a message from their team, this is how it’s done.
That’s call respect.**
I might add, you guys new about the new focus for at least 8 month when guys changed the website to a education friendly theme.
Yet You took any subscription from developers without warning you won’t implement new features specifically for them.
sometime your customers and community gets it better.
@Lost_Oasis_Game
“I would like to see them split the software into two versions, one for developers and one for education.”
And what about making the developers version open-source since you guys are no longer willing and able to develop it.
That’s better than dead!
'Can you, (or Lost_Oasis_Games, or anyone) actually detail what it is that a developer might want that a high school kid, after one year of GS, would not also want?'
Here's 3 things that have absolutely no use to educational users:
Marketing tools (social media links and functionality)
Retention tools (Google Play services etc...)
Monetisation support (Chartboost, reward videos etc...)
These three are absolutely essential to have any hope of commercial success as an indie developer yet have absolutely no use for someone teaching GameSalad for the purposes of introducing kids to basic programming logic etc...
@marionwood "I did wonder when someone was going to bring up the Graphene debate, though I really don't think the two situations are at all comparable, not least because we're not being asked to pay for anything different. Rearranging some priorities to favor a load of things the community are clamouring for anyway doesn't seem like an outrage.
Just as an aside, it seems a little ironic that a rant against Graphene ends up with
"less broken functionality that well, really shouldn't be at risk of being broken with each (unrelated fixes) build.."
Actually, I think you're missing the point here - The Graphene announcement was basically about pushing a new product, one that to most intents and purposes, was vapourware. It didn't offer anything new at first glance, that couldn't have been easily implemented in GS - Snap-to-grid, better UI, etc... and yep, the placeholder website was set up, news pushed, community finally informed (then told we'd have to pay for that even if we'd just renewed... ...and let's be perfectly honest here... If Microsoft etc, can't even stomach ditching and rebuilding their entire code for the sake of 'cleaning up' their products, with the dev manpower they have, what possible chance do you think that the (rapidly diminishing) team of however few there were, and now down to ONE, GS developers, would SERIOUSLY have had, of creating a bigger, better product in, oh, I don't know... a DECADE? would have? (Let's take a moment to reflect on how long GS has been in 'Beta' - and no, it's not really an unfair label - it's most definitely a Beta still, despite being able to (generally) publish games - So Graphene?.... ...not really a viable proposition in my eyes, and certainly nothing to get excited about - drafting GS coders OFF GS, and into a limbo project, when GS was already pretty much left for dead, coding-slot-timewise, already?... So no, pardon me for not being super-excited about that particular announcement, direction, and subsequent project death (seemingly, unless it's still being worked on somehow - that might explain the lack of updates and turnaround time for GS issues, hey? )
...and not to mention that this fracas was around the same time that draconian clamp-downs on devs SUPPORTING the existing product with add-ons and templates, etc, were being mentioned, websites warned, and only after the (frankly unsurprising, I mean, who would have thought THAT eh?) backlash from the community did THAT end up being quietly dropped...
Nope, GS does have a proven history of intent to either crap on or outright ignore/disrespect their users and supporters, and I find it infuriating when we could ALL turn this into something amazing, WITHOUT trying to push a new money-spinning, vapourware product on us, and promises of making it better by starting from scratch... All due respect, @CodeWizard has done an AMAZING job of proving that the app CAN be bettered as long as coding talent/skill is in there, tightening up the code, fixing the bugs, and generally bettering the product...
@marionwood "I had the strong impression the Graphene experiment was to start again from the bottom up to build a software that wouldn't break so easily. Maybe if we'd encouraged that leap, and (-!shock!-) been prepared to pay for it, we'd have a cool, stable, fast-to-learn and operate system by now, you know, sort of like that GS we dream of...""
Also, I find this bit pretty 'ironic' as you say - do you not feel that we ARE already paying for it?! - so you seem to be quite happy with the notion that we should pay twice? - I'm afraid I'm NOT - several hundred dollars a year for PRO is already enough for this software, thanks - if it was improved and the money was used to keep it at a user-friendly, working, functional level fueled partially by sensible user input/suggestions/requests, I'd not have any qualms paying to ensure its survival, but at present I truly believe that the income is simply not being re-invested into the product at all, which is harming us ALL, and having a massive impact on GS's potential to be seen as a serious contender by others interested in the mobile app industry.
@marionwood said: @strag
Thank you for some specifics! At least now I understand what some of the real fears are.
While I can see that retention tools are not going to be top of the average high school list, I'd really disagree about the other two points. Social Media is really where it's at for kids in school: Gamesalad allows students to build publishable apps - surely they'll be clamoring for Facebook integration? And the idea of school kids being indifferent to monetisation support also unlikely - trying to monetise apps beats riding paper routes or washing cars imho, though I may be entirely wrong.
I think this is confusing the definition of 'student'. In the classroom, I agree with the idea that social media and monetization support will take a back seat (if any seat at all).
You are right to assume that these kids will be interested in these very features and would prefer to make money via their games rather than riding paper routes or washing cars. Who wouldn't?
But at that point, these kids are indie developers (just like us!), who just so happen to be students as well. I don't think it's fair to assume that a class using GS to teach game design will allow for any time at all to help the students monetize their apps.
'Can you, (or Lost_Oasis_Games, or anyone) actually detail what it is that a developer might want that a high school kid, after one year of GS, would not also want?'
Here's 3 things that have absolutely no use to educational users:
Marketing tools (social media links and functionality)
Retention tools (Google Play services etc...)
Monetisation support (Chartboost, reward videos etc...)
These three are absolutely essential to have any hope of commercial success as an indie developer yet have absolutely no use for someone teaching GameSalad for the purposes of introducing kids to basic programming logic etc...
I would also add:: push notification and Facebook integration to be more precise
as well as: memory leek fix and loading time optimization which are of very little importance to student learning logic
@blob With the greatest respect, you're really not summarizing the "issues", but collecting together a list of rants and conspiracy theories, which more-or-less accuse the GS team of outright fraud. I understand you've been taught to "prepare for the worst", but trying to imagine the worst possible scenario in the face of little evidence, and then proceeding to discuss it as "fact" is unfortunately not a great recipe for good mental health, or motivated, creative productivity - neither for you, the GS team, nor the rest of the community. :-(
Please, please, just laugh @NNterprises rabbit, and see if we don't all get more done tomorrow!
@Japster "that couldn't have been easily implemented in GS - Snap-to-grid, better UI, etc..." do you really have any evidence about how easy these things would have been? (And are you really so mad now these identical things might get priority in an education market?) If you are enough of a programmer to know how the code functions, why are you messing around in GS in the first place? As a proficient Python coder I know I can learn languages, and I could make a switch, but I use GS for it's excellent publishing routes, and because for all its faults it's just FASTER to get stuff DONE. But I wouldn't start calling out professional programmers as if they were dumb, deceitful, or actually siphoning off money that should "invested in the product". I'd reckon if this stuff didn't happen sooner, there's probably a decent reason.
@Adrenaline I feel like you've really hit the nail on the head. A high school kid who uses GS in school, and then goes home to ask his parents for a subscription to GS instead of another pair of Nikes... indeed become exactly just like us. That's what growing the education markets means. Giving away an experience to schools, or persuading the education boards to buy into it, is a standard business strategy that turns students into grown up users. No different from us - except in scale. How many licenses does the average member of this community sell by telling their friends about GS? And how many would a single passionate teacher sell in a year of high school classes? How many classmates would wannabe just like the first kid who gets his or her own app actually onto a mobile phone, or classroom iPad? That's what I call scale.
@Japster said:
but at present I truly believe that the income is simply not being re-invested into the product at all, which is harming us ALL, and having a massive impact on GS's potential to be seen as a serious contender by others interested in the mobile app industry.
Thank you @Japster for throwing yourself in the oven with everyone else who is not afraid to tell it like it is.
instead of blinded, wishful thinking,politically correct, ignorant positivity....
the very fact that we are here talking is because we are positive and hopeful but as of know kind of discouraged...
We want a change, we want communication so we can plan month ahead, we want accountability for our investments. We hope you guys at GS can reflect on all this and adjust.
@Adrenaline I feel like you've really hit the nail on the head. A high school kid who uses GS in school, and then goes home to ask his parents for a subscription to GS instead of another pair of Nikes... indeed become exactly just like us. That's what growing the education markets means. Giving away an experience to schools, or persuading the education boards to buy into it, is a standard business strategy that turns students into grown up users. No different from us - except in scale. How many licenses does the average member of this community sell by telling their friends about GS? And how many would a single passionate teacher sell in a year of high school classes? How many classmates would wannabe just like the first kid who gets his or her own app actually onto a mobile phone, or classroom iPad? That's what I call scale.
Yes! If the direction of GS growth follows the needs that this student develops even when they're out of the classroom, then that's great! But will it? They're no longer a student in that capacity, and might join the 'developer' bucket we all sit in right now.
@marionwood said:
But I wouldn't start calling out professional programmers as if they were dumb, deceitful, or actually siphoning off money that should "invested in the product".
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his concerns, I know for a fact, through my inside contacts at GS, that @CodeWizard spent nearly $200,000 on a gold fedora which he wore only once and now uses it to keep his pens organized, and @ForumNinja has a bucket of 1998 Krug champagne delivered every morning just to dampen his often violent outbursts.
@blob
Hey you calling me ignorant?! I thought we had both about the same number of actual facts. Could you tell me a couple of extra facts then please?
Have you ever personally sold a single extra GS license by your advocacy?
Do you reckon your absolutely OTT doom scenario is doing so now?
Are you a secret agent for a rival company?
(Politically correct - thanks for the compliment :-))
(You could also prepare for some good possibilities - way better for the mental health)
Student will get it for free.from the school. .it 's very unlikely that they buy a second copy....and if ever the 0.3% of student in this class want to become programmer, some guy in their class will tell them: "dude you get unity or etc they go so much features and it s free,,,,,etc...
and the few students who would get a subscription in 2017 will then start to bitch once there realize sooner or later that the marketing, monetization and retention tools are so 2016, outdated.
then repeat what's going now.
not a long term strategy either way.
No. i'm not.
unfortunately we are all ignorant on the inner working and troubles at GS HQ
It just seems that your point of view is of someone who has not invested their livelihood on this tool being a commercial tool.
Therefore perfectly understandable and in your case you have no need to prepare for the worse.
Also as you keep mentioning...... my mental health is great.
Comments
@pHghost
You are totally missing my point.
I'm concerned with the future roadmap and what Gamesalad will be as a commercial tool as high school learning logic don't have the need for the same features
And yes! thinking of anything that could go wrong is the way to prepare for anything and bulletproof yourself against unforeseen problems as much as you can.
My intuition is telling me, Gamesalad might not be a viable option to release games to the world for much longer.
Even veterans are starting to leave hint, hint!?!
So I'm learning c++ and blueprints in Unreal.
Yet i hope i'm completely wrong
But if I'm unfortunately right i'll be ready to move then.
Until then I ll still be using Gamesalad.
I don't want the rabbit to die:)
Yes that's also what I was trying to say.
We have so little info.
Part of the problem is that the communication from GS to the community has been horrible for a long time. Seems like there was a staff member dedicated to the forums a couple years back and communication was awesome but then again maybe I dreamed that.
@BazookaTime, that was @SaladStraightShooter. You're not imagining things... It was nice.
http://jamie-cross.net/posts/ ✮ Udemy: Introduction to Mobile Games Development ✮ Learn Mobile Game Development in One Day Using Gamesalad ✮ My Patreon Page
I miss that kind of communication. It's been a lot worse than it is now, but it's been a whole lot better.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
Wait, who said GS doesn't need a community?
Read this: http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/92313/why-and-how-do-gs-members-provide-help-for-others
Dat GameSalad Research Guy
@marionwood
'Can you, (or Lost_Oasis_Games, or anyone) actually detail what it is that a developer might want that a high school kid, after one year of GS, would not also want?'
Here's 3 things that have absolutely no use to educational users:
These three are absolutely essential to have any hope of commercial success as an indie developer yet have absolutely no use for someone teaching GameSalad for the purposes of introducing kids to basic programming logic etc...
I'm afraid I have to agree with @blob on a LOT of things he is saying. As regards the product being safe and secure, hmm... Remember a while ago, GS improvements were going to be dropped on a back boiler for a little idea called Graphine?, that it looked 99% like we were going to be asked to pay AGAIN for? - The 'exciting' news that we were given, after being told that good things were coming, after waiting YEARS for features and fixes?
Do people not remember the sh#tstorm with the EXACT (completely warranted IMHO) same feelings about that? - how our GAMESALAD subscription money (which, let's face it - on a per-developer basis, HAS to be bringing (or has brought) a practically obscene amount of money in for the company to seemingly fritter away over the years) for a buggy, badly-maintained product was going to help ANOTHER product that we were looking like we would have to pay SEPARATELY for? - if it's such a struggle to maintain this product, with what seems NO staff overheads (alright, a handful maybe), and a HUGE recurring revenue/revenue base, then what the **** are they doing with the money?!
To be honest, I still LOVE the idea (if not the current state) of Gamesalad, and with a community of trusted, possibly contracted, capable and passionate devs working on it, I'd imagine it would get VERY professional, VERY streamlined, VERY quickly, but hey, that will (understandably, given its golden goose status) NEVER happen... Basically, this company seems to be more fickle than a child - constantly going after the next big thing/idea, without any concern for the people who PAY to make the company profitable (and I have NO illusions that it IS profitable, I think the number of Pro devs is probably higher than most of us are aware), then we're told off like naughty children or troublecausing upstarts and naysayers, by sanctimonious people who aren't even GS staff, despite the fact that, make no bones about it, we ARE supporters, and indeed INVESTORS, in this product - we invest money, time, long-term effort and commitment, and told that we have no right to demand a working piece of software that will be supported for a LONG time, and will be improved beyond the bug-riddled, clunky, crashing (and now downright BROKEN) BETA level software that it still is after all of these years and subscription fees poured into it!
I'm sorry, but GS decisions really do seem to be, as Blob points out, all about getting the most from that golden goose, without feeding, watering or protecting it. Every time some sweeping statement about the company's next big direction/plan comes out, it is never, EVER about improving the very thing that is the current sole reason for the company's existence, for the REASONS (PRO Subscribers, and now paying BASIC ones) that should really, REALLY matter.
In NO other walk of life have I put my money, and so much heart and soul into something in order to be able to use it and see it succeed as IT DESERVES TO if handled properly, only to be disappointed again and again and again - some smartass will almost certainly say yet again "Okay then, leave!", but really? - this is such a childish response - I (and many others, pretty much TIED ourselves to GS when we adopted it, poured blood,sweat and tears, not to mention THOUSANDS of crashes along the way - and people here know I do not jest - it's MUCH better now, but was horrendous years ago - so yeah, a fact of life with GS), but yeah, we wired our brains for it, and invested years into learning it despite its quirks and many, many problems, loving it and hating it in equal measures, because we have dreams of becoming successful indies, or at least respected for our games. As such, no, I'd rather not go elsewhere, but TBH, I personally (and I'm gathering many others on here) are feeling VERY let down by these latest developments... Custom fonts, logic importing from projects? - sorry, no resources/time... dragging behaviours from one actor to another, with same attributes, to save time... same again, sorry. All of these really are straightforward, yet massively productivity-enhancing, time-saving fixes and improvements, yet even these are STILL outstanding, as are bugs from YEARS back. Having the lack of ANY actor/element importing or merging of projects built-in to GS (and the immense effort as such, to even get re-usable elements into a new project) is pretty unforgivable, and the ONLY reason that I could merge projects at one point was because at least Deep Blue made a few apps to do it (which no longer work in my current GS version, so I am now completely screwed to import whole chunks of game, online, high score, etc logic...) - talk about making life harder?
Basically, I cannot possibly see how OUR combined annual subscription fees are so low as to hardly be worth mentioning as warranting some level of expectation, and instead GS claim to be requiring a need to diversify and possibly overstretch/risk what's left, by going after markets that may well prove the end of the line if you are unsuccessful, as opposed to fixing the damn thing PROPERLY, making it faster to do manual changes etc, re-use or import assets and complex or custom behaviours, and ensuring that it's generally a viable product alternative for those who currently wouldn't touch it with a bargepole?! - Surely if THAT was prioritised a while ago, you wouldn't be in this mess now?
Like others, I LOVE the idea of what GS COULD BE, if it was developed in the same way any sane company would do so - PAYING users supported/looked after/listened to when they suggest product improving fixes and enhancements, frequently fixed/improved product, updated with GOOD QA, ie. less broken functionality that well, really shouldn't be at risk of being broken with each (unrelated fixes) build... and really... ONE developer left since whenever, and the maximum rate (or not) that one developer can improve a massively multi-user subscribed product to satisfactory levels? - let's be realistic - unsurprising nothing seems to be happening for months, really.... sigh...
I'm currently working on 3 projects in GS, and tbh, this, like others, is making me seriously check into the alternatives to see just how viable the jump is - not impressed at all....
@Socks Awesome, thanks mate
Welcome Brent. As a developer who's used GameSalad off & on(mainly on) for 5+ years I must say that this new direction is interesting to say the least. I'm glad GS isn't closing down or fading away, but I'm concerned about the development features being pushed aside. I don't teach GS, but I do use it to develop various genres including educational. I hope this new direction can somehow greatly benefit educators, students, developers, and the users of our games & apps.
Website ∞ Twitter ∞ My apps are available on: Apple iOS App Store ∞ Google Play App Store ∞ Amazon App Store
Do they still have this old CEO on board or have chosen the next one already?
There have been some very interesting points made here & I'm looking forward to hearing our new CEO's response...
@WildSnake old CEO is now just dealing with the code of GS and nothing else. He used to do both but was finding it difficult to balance the two so he stepped down so he can do code and a few side projects.
his silence is deafening
I think he has important things to do since he just came , give him some time. He clearly said
We already got a response, I hope he is busy managing and codewizard is busy fixing the bug. I prefer that than seeing them in the forums replying to every post.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer." Muhammad Ali
Who know which of them is old one?
I do remember two CEOs ago I believed that things could go better with GS.
But not now..
@strag
Thank you for some specifics! At least now I understand what some of the real fears are.
While I can see that retention tools are not going to be top of the average high school list, I'd really disagree about the other two points. Social Media is really where it's at for kids in school: Gamesalad allows students to build publishable apps - surely they'll be clamoring for Facebook integration? And the idea of school kids being indifferent to monetisation support also unlikely - trying to monetise apps beats riding paper routes or washing cars imho, though I may be entirely wrong.
@Japster
I did wonder when someone was going to bring up the Graphene debate, though I really don't think the two situations are at all comparable, not least because we're not being asked to pay for anything different. Rearranging some priorities to favor a load of things the community are clamouring for anyway doesn't seem like an outrage.
Just as an aside, it seems a little ironic that a rant against Graphene ends up with
"less broken functionality that well, really shouldn't be at risk of being broken with each (unrelated fixes) build.."
I had the strong impression the Graphene experiment was to start again from the bottom up to build a software that wouldn't break so easily. Maybe if we'd encouraged that leap, and (-!shock!-) been prepared to pay for it, we'd have a cool, stable, fast-to-learn and operate system by now, you know, sort of like that GS we dream of...
I tried to compiled concerns here in case it gets skipped by the GS team because i mean business!
If you haven't been developing a games serioussly or invested years on game salad, if you are not intending to be a successful professional game developer...
then i will ask to please refrain to post a comment about this. Not because your opinion does not matter but simply because you are not in the same predicament and in that case you are not having the problem and concerns we are having.
Your opinion will only washout and skew the consensus and confuse GS team.
I've been working 12 hours a day for 18 month on a game not for fun but for work i intend it to be successful.
IF you are toying around which is just as cool by the way, you might not really relate to the issues below and think we are just being negative, we are not
In fact we love game salad so much that we stake our livelihood on it!
and this is why comment like stop being negative etc don;t apply
these type "happy about everything" posts aren't helping us and in the long term nor the hobbyist or The GS team
Too many arguments here are based on 2 different fractions arguing aimlessly : the hobbyists vs the pros.
a
assure you that what teachers want will not be enough to benefit the pro developers and the hobbyist if ever the later one becomes a pro.
So to the hobbyist:" I can assure that what we want will benefit you just as much as well as the education market"
However I can also a
SO there is no need to reply negatively to this and cut the grass under our feet if you don't understand how the New direction is a deal breaker for pros
It will only confuse and validate GS team more about what our expectations are.
<then we're told off like naughty children or troublecausing upstarts and naysayers, by sanctimonious people who aren't even GS staff, despite the fact that, make no bones about it, we ARE supporters, and indeed INVESTORS, in this product - we invest money, time, long-term effort and commitment, and told that we have no right to demand a working piece of software that will be supported for a LONG time, and will be improved beyond the bug-riddled, clunky, crashing (and now downright BROKEN) BETA level software that it still is after all of these years and subscription fees poured into it!
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but TBH, I personally (and I'm gathering many others on here) are feeling VERY let down by these latest developments...
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@marionwood "I did wonder when someone was going to bring up the Graphene debate, though I really don't think the two situations are at all comparable, not least because we're not being asked to pay for anything different. Rearranging some priorities to favor a load of things the community are clamouring for anyway doesn't seem like an outrage.
Just as an aside, it seems a little ironic that a rant against Graphene ends up with
"less broken functionality that well, really shouldn't be at risk of being broken with each (unrelated fixes) build.."
Actually, I think you're missing the point here - The Graphene announcement was basically about pushing a new product, one that to most intents and purposes, was vapourware. It didn't offer anything new at first glance, that couldn't have been easily implemented in GS - Snap-to-grid, better UI, etc... and yep, the placeholder website was set up, news pushed, community finally informed (then told we'd have to pay for that even if we'd just renewed... ...and let's be perfectly honest here... If Microsoft etc, can't even stomach ditching and rebuilding their entire code for the sake of 'cleaning up' their products, with the dev manpower they have, what possible chance do you think that the (rapidly diminishing) team of however few there were, and now down to ONE, GS developers, would SERIOUSLY have had, of creating a bigger, better product in, oh, I don't know... a DECADE? would have? (Let's take a moment to reflect on how long GS has been in 'Beta' - and no, it's not really an unfair label - it's most definitely a Beta still, despite being able to (generally) publish games - So Graphene?.... ...not really a viable proposition in my eyes, and certainly nothing to get excited about - drafting GS coders OFF GS, and into a limbo project, when GS was already pretty much left for dead, coding-slot-timewise, already?... So no, pardon me for not being super-excited about that particular announcement, direction, and subsequent project death (seemingly, unless it's still being worked on somehow - that might explain the lack of updates and turnaround time for GS issues, hey?
)
...and not to mention that this fracas was around the same time that draconian clamp-downs on devs SUPPORTING the existing product with add-ons and templates, etc, were being mentioned, websites warned, and only after the (frankly unsurprising, I mean, who would have thought THAT eh?) backlash from the community did THAT end up being quietly dropped...
Nope, GS does have a proven history of intent to either crap on or outright ignore/disrespect their users and supporters, and I find it infuriating when we could ALL turn this into something amazing, WITHOUT trying to push a new money-spinning, vapourware product on us, and promises of making it better by starting from scratch... All due respect, @CodeWizard has done an AMAZING job of proving that the app CAN be bettered as long as coding talent/skill is in there, tightening up the code, fixing the bugs, and generally bettering the product...
@marionwood "I had the strong impression the Graphene experiment was to start again from the bottom up to build a software that wouldn't break so easily. Maybe if we'd encouraged that leap, and (-!shock!-) been prepared to pay for it, we'd have a cool, stable, fast-to-learn and operate system by now, you know, sort of like that GS we dream of...""
Also, I find this bit pretty 'ironic' as you say - do you not feel that we ARE already paying for it?! - so you seem to be quite happy with the notion that we should pay twice? - I'm afraid I'm NOT - several hundred dollars a year for PRO is already enough for this software, thanks - if it was improved and the money was used to keep it at a user-friendly, working, functional level fueled partially by sensible user input/suggestions/requests, I'd not have any qualms paying to ensure its survival, but at present I truly believe that the income is simply not being re-invested into the product at all, which is harming us ALL, and having a massive impact on GS's potential to be seen as a serious contender by others interested in the mobile app industry.
I think this is confusing the definition of 'student'. In the classroom, I agree with the idea that social media and monetization support will take a back seat (if any seat at all).
You are right to assume that these kids will be interested in these very features and would prefer to make money via their games rather than riding paper routes or washing cars. Who wouldn't?
But at that point, these kids are indie developers (just like us!), who just so happen to be students as well. I don't think it's fair to assume that a class using GS to teach game design will allow for any time at all to help the students monetize their apps.
I would also add:: push notification and Facebook integration to be more precise
as well as: memory leek fix and loading time optimization which are of very little importance to student learning logic
@blob With the greatest respect, you're really not summarizing the "issues", but collecting together a list of rants and conspiracy theories, which more-or-less accuse the GS team of outright fraud. I understand you've been taught to "prepare for the worst", but trying to imagine the worst possible scenario in the face of little evidence, and then proceeding to discuss it as "fact" is unfortunately not a great recipe for good mental health, or motivated, creative productivity - neither for you, the GS team, nor the rest of the community. :-(
Please, please, just laugh @NNterprises rabbit, and see if we don't all get more done tomorrow!
@Japster "that couldn't have been easily implemented in GS - Snap-to-grid, better UI, etc..." do you really have any evidence about how easy these things would have been? (And are you really so mad now these identical things might get priority in an education market?) If you are enough of a programmer to know how the code functions, why are you messing around in GS in the first place? As a proficient Python coder I know I can learn languages, and I could make a switch, but I use GS for it's excellent publishing routes, and because for all its faults it's just FASTER to get stuff DONE. But I wouldn't start calling out professional programmers as if they were dumb, deceitful, or actually siphoning off money that should "invested in the product". I'd reckon if this stuff didn't happen sooner, there's probably a decent reason.
@Adrenaline I feel like you've really hit the nail on the head. A high school kid who uses GS in school, and then goes home to ask his parents for a subscription to GS instead of another pair of Nikes... indeed become exactly just like us. That's what growing the education markets means. Giving away an experience to schools, or persuading the education boards to buy into it, is a standard business strategy that turns students into grown up users. No different from us - except in scale. How many licenses does the average member of this community sell by telling their friends about GS? And how many would a single passionate teacher sell in a year of high school classes? How many classmates would wannabe just like the first kid who gets his or her own app actually onto a mobile phone, or classroom iPad? That's what I call scale.
Thank you @Japster for throwing yourself in the oven with everyone else who is not afraid to tell it like it is.
instead of blinded, wishful thinking,politically correct, ignorant positivity....
the very fact that we are here talking is because we are positive and hopeful but as of know kind of discouraged...
We want a change, we want communication so we can plan month ahead, we want accountability for our investments. We hope you guys at GS can reflect on all this and adjust.
Yes! If the direction of GS growth follows the needs that this student develops even when they're out of the classroom, then that's great! But will it? They're no longer a student in that capacity, and might join the 'developer' bucket we all sit in right now.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss his concerns, I know for a fact, through my inside contacts at GS, that @CodeWizard spent nearly $200,000 on a gold fedora which he wore only once and now uses it to keep his pens organized, and @ForumNinja has a bucket of 1998 Krug champagne delivered every morning just to dampen his often violent outbursts.
@blob
Hey you calling me ignorant?! I thought we had both about the same number of actual facts. Could you tell me a couple of extra facts then please?
Have you ever personally sold a single extra GS license by your advocacy?
Do you reckon your absolutely OTT doom scenario is doing so now?
Are you a secret agent for a rival company?
(Politically correct - thanks for the compliment :-))
(You could also prepare for some good possibilities - way better for the mental health)
Student will get it for free.from the school. .it 's very unlikely that they buy a second copy....and if ever the 0.3% of student in this class want to become programmer, some guy in their class will tell them: "dude you get unity or etc they go so much features and it s free,,,,,etc...
your scenario is a pipe dream.
and the few students who would get a subscription in 2017 will then start to bitch once there realize sooner or later that the marketing, monetization and retention tools are so 2016, outdated.
then repeat what's going now.
not a long term strategy either way.
No. i'm not.
unfortunately we are all ignorant on the inner working and troubles at GS HQ
It just seems that your point of view is of someone who has not invested their livelihood on this tool being a commercial tool.
Therefore perfectly understandable and in your case you have no need to prepare for the worse.
Also as you keep mentioning...... my mental health is great.