@UtopianGames said:
I fear the party is over feel sorry for you guys
Thanks, but not all of us are giving up.
Yep.
Sad to see a switch in focus in some ways for sure, but i'm far from giving up.
I want .exe/proper steam support more then anything, But if 6 years of implementing new features hasn't worked, I don't see more years of implementing features working. Focus on what is needed for the the business to thrive, and if it's education. Great.
What's funny is a lot of people now calling for features first were the same people calling for bug fixes and UI improvements before new features get implemented.
Now we're getting just that, and everyone wants features again!
Tough crowd to please here, but as others have said, it's all passion for the product.
I really think after they fix GS slowdown bug and members get to use it again , members will stop complaining here (regardless of the education part). I remember the frustrating moments when we were waiting for 1.25 , and then everything was great again once it was live. I dont feel that way cause i never updated to begin with , but if i did and i couldnt use GS i would probably have doubts about the engine especially with the new changes. Codewizard mentioned that the fix will be here soon and that they will give us updates later on, he is probably working really hard to fix it and make it more stable. I know its not the right time to say this, but hopefully everything will go back to normal soon.
ForumNinjaKey Master, Head Chef, Member, PROPosts: 554
Hope everyone had a great weekend! Just finished reading through all the comments on here and I'll go ahead and clarify some stuff for you guys.
First off, there seems to be a lot of fear that our developer base will be forgotten, which just isn't the case. We've got a very passionate community here (as mentioned above) and I think that's great! When we say that the new features won't benefit just the developer community, it doesn't mean that they won't benefit you guys, just that we'll focus on features that benefit both our developers and education users.
When we say that we're pushing for education and are focused on selling to more schools (primally grade and high schools, and potentially community colleges), know that there's good reasons behind this choice.
One reason for the focus is that there's been a big push in the education market for students to learn coding. While using GameSalad doesn't teach you coding, you can't deny that it's a great learning tool to get your head around different coding concepts (without all the pain of learning syntax), as well as a great tool to help build problem solving and logic skills.
Another reason for the education focus is that these next couple months are the prime time to sell to schools (they're all out for summer vacation here in the US).
I also saw that you guys wanted to know what we'll be working on after the slowdown fixes. As was stated earlier, we are working on a Roadmap and hope to have it all nice a pretty within the next couple weeks.
After the slowdown fix we'll look at the various UI improvements we want to make, and prioritize the order in which we want to implement them based off of development effort required etc (maybe we'll be able to incorporate the awesome work @manto has done, I'm not sure, still need to talk to CodeWizard about it).
One of the things we've talked about implementing (and @Armelline brought up when I talked to him) is some kind of way for people to export logic from one GameSalad project and import it into another. This is an example of one of those features that would benefit people trying to learn GameSalad in schools as well as our professional developers
Oh, on the development note. We recently hired Carlos Padilla, who has worked with Brent in the past. He will be helping with development as well as some other things, so we won't have just one developer!
Another big thing you guys are concerned about is compensation for the slowdown issue. This is a touchy subject, but I'll see what I can work out with Brent for you guys. One of the things that makes compensation difficult is, we don't know who all updated their Mac OS and when they did / how long they've been dealing with the issue.
@Two.E said:
Swift Playground is FREE and seems to do what GS was planning on doing.
Not sure what this adds to the discussion. There are plenty of tools out there that will meet or exceed a users needs other than GS and have similar feature sets. No need to start listing them.
"export logic from one GameSalad project and import it into another" my dream.. great news.. also Carlos welcome to GS team, hope we get introduction, well this calms me, but I am just waiting for slowness fix as I am not able to work on my project thats what is driving me crazy now..
@Two.E said:
Swift Playground is FREE and seems to do what GS was planning on doing.
It is also (for now) Mac and iOS only. Swift being open source and so powerful I think will soon make it the top programming language, bit there are still strides to go.
With GameSalad, you can still make a game much quicker and also publish it on multiple platforms.
It was just announced. I don't know anything else expect that a lot of schools use iPads. So its clear that there are going to be millions of students gaining access to it. I wasn't comparing, I wasn't starting a debate, I was merely stating a fact that occurred five minutes ago.
@Two.E said:
It was just announced. I don't know anything else expect that a lot of schools use iPads. So its clear that there are going to be millions of students gaining access to it. I wasn't comparing, I wasn't starting a debate, I was merely stating a fact that occurred five minutes ago.
yea, i don't think GS has much to fear with that.... swift classes on udemy however
@ForumNinja Im not complaining with regards to the UI improvements now being top priority after the slowdown fix, as Ive been vocal about the need for them for 5 years.
I am however interested to know why they've now been given such high priority, after years of being ignored, promised, or excuses given as to why they're too difficult to implement or have never previously been seen as a priority?... even up until a few months ago.
I'd started to think I'd be going to my grave before GS saw proper UI improvements....
For once, priorities seem to be right though... so I hope you actually follow through on the UI improvements once the slowdown has been fixed, as they benefit every user of the software, not a minority.
@Chunkypixels said: @ForumNinja Im not complaining with regards to the UI improvements now being top priority after the slowdown fix, as Ive been vocal about the need for them for 5 years.
I am however interested to know why they've now been given such high priority, after years of being ignored, promised, or excuses given as to why they're too difficult to implement or have never previously been seen as a priority?... even up until a few months ago.
It's obvious - they really can't present the Creator tool as a something new and user friendly if there are some clunky bits that will need to be tuned up before GS can be well received..
It's kind of like taking your used 'beater of a car and getting it detailed and spit-shined before rolling it out on to the street corner with a fresh "For Sale" sign on it..
(that said, heaven forbid any potential School client poke around here in the forums and read any of the flames and issues surrounding GS as of late...)
@ForumNinja said:
Another big thing you guys are concerned about is compensation for the slowdown issue. This is a touchy subject, but I'll see what I can work out with Brent for you guys. One of the things that makes compensation difficult is, we don't know who all updated their Mac OS and when they did / how long they've been dealing with the issue.
Thanks for the reply. My guess is that this would have to be based on an honor system if you have no way to validate which users run on what OS. You could put out a separate post/message requesting those who had the OS X issue to reply. I, for one, did not have the issue.
Great to hear about this. @Manto 's work if implemented would add UI adjustments far quicker that we had all anticipated so we hope that works out.
I'd spoken to Alex (or is that you there?- avatars being the same) about importing logic a few weeks back. it would make templates etc 10 times more useful, even more so if we import multiple logic and templates into one project file because when we build we often use dozens of resources whose code can't simply be copied across in the current builds- we end up with way too many errors.
After the slowdown fix we'll look at the various UI improvements we want to make, and prioritize the order in which we want to implement them based off of development effort required etc (maybe we'll be able to incorporate the awesome work @manto has done, I'm not sure, still need to talk to CodeWizard about it).
One of the things we've talked about implementing (and @Armelline brought up when I talked to him) is some kind of way for people to export logic from one GameSalad project and import it into another. This is an example of one of those features that would benefit people trying to learn GameSalad in schools as well as our professional developers
Braydon_SFXMember, Sous Chef, PRO, Bowlboy SidekickPosts: 9,271
@Chunkypixels said: @ForumNinja Im not complaining with regards to the UI improvements now being top priority after the slowdown fix, as Ive been vocal about the need for them for 5 years.
I am however interested to know why they've now been given such high priority, after years of being ignored, promised, or excuses given as to why they're too difficult to implement or have never previously been seen as a priority?... even up until a few months ago.
I'd started to think I'd be going to my grave before GS saw proper UI improvements....
For once, priorities seem to be right though... so I hope you actually follow through on the UI improvements once the slowdown has been fixed, as they benefit every user of the software, not a minority.
Agreed. I've used other tools (some before coming to GS, and some even now) and while GameSalad is my favorite tool by far, the simple and elegant user interfaces of the other tools that attract me to them. Many of these other tools have darker designs, which is MUCH easier on the eyes, proper sized icons and everything as far as position and location inside the tool makes sense. I'm not saying the GameSalad interface is horrible, but it has much room for improvement. And, if UI is something the GS team is really wanting to look into, I for one am SUPER excited!
Another big thing you guys are concerned about is compensation for the slowdown issue. This is a touchy subject, but I'll see what I can work out with Brent for you guys. One of the things that makes compensation difficult is, we don't know who all updated their Mac OS and when they did / how long they've been dealing with the issue.
Maybe this will help clarify things...
Go to the Spotlight and search for System Information.app then go to Software > Programs > GameSalad > Now you can see GS version number and the "last modified" date.
A screenshot of the above and a screenshot with osx version for proof?
I'm experiencing the issue but luckily my pro account expired a few days before the issue occurred so i'm waiting for the fix and then going pro again
tatiangMember, Sous Chef, PRO, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 11,949
One reason for the focus is that there's been a big push in the education market for students to learn coding.
This is true. Our parents just made it loud and clear that coding is a priority for their children to be learning at our school.
There are MANY "learn to code" iPad apps and almost none of them actually let you create your own game/app. They are logic puzzle apps which are very good at teaching those skills but there is almost no creative element to them. It's like trying to learn photography using a digital textbook instead of a camera. GameSalad is the camera. Alright, it's much more but hopefully you get the analogy.
I do know that educators are going to be less forgiving about the lack of easy-to-use UI features like grids, zoom, window placement memory, multiple actor selection, asset folders, etc. I think developers sometimes use GameSalad so many hours a day that they just get used to workarounds but a teacher with a limited amount of time and restless students isn't going to like to have to figure out and implement such workarounds. So I think GameSalad may be pressured to improve these long-standing shortcomings... which is good for all of us.
There is no point in modifying the date because you can compare the GS and OSX date to the release date of the 1.25.05 update. It isn't bulletproof but it's something I guess
@KevinCross Eh...? Did you get custom collisions, custom fonts, and if not joints, then at least rotations that can be used to build some...? Or did I miss something? And are you seriously suggesting extra dollars wouldn't being spent on either (a) attracting more dollars (Education focus) or (b) coding (salaries)?
Stuff happens in order, its just that how long coding/debugging takes is often difficult to predict, and what the El Capitan guys will do next is impossible to guess. With more money and therefore more staff, stuff still happens in order, but just faster. Yes the custom collisions / variable frame rate fix took months when they hoped it would take weeks - but from this I gather the thing broke, well, because apparently they were trying to add more features...
I think It’s time to see the writing on the wall.
I’m very positive by nature but I’d have be to delusional to be excited about what's going at this point. @ForumNinja informed us on June 6th that that the new CEO was working on formal Introduction to us.
4 days later we get this low energy, apathetic introduction which basically repeats what’s ForumNinja told us about fixing something they ought to.
1: hey guys we are gonna fix the horrible slowdown in El Capitan “ Euh we hope so, that’s common sense and it’s not news
.
2: additional out of place comments like:
“GameSalad is great for teaching coding concepts and problem solving skills without all the syntax of code.”
“GameSalad is very easy to get started with and use, especially with a little guidance from a teacher.”
Not the best angle to address a community of developers for the first time.
Save that pitch for the schools.
3: we will benefit from education focused improvements like General usability improvements.GUI etc…
Geez, thanks! We get to benefit from something while Gamesalad is benefiting from our money, Should we clap?
While i being a bit harsh as Brent, the new CEO, is in a difficult position, I do think he’s equally clumsy and insensitive in his approach.
I choose to be a bit harsh to contrast some excited or maybe just polite comments in this thread from people who seems to either not get it or haven’t invested time resources in Gamesalad.
The bottom line is, we pay for a service every month for which the provider just told us they will not create any features specifically for us. **
Bye bye Facebook integration, loading time improvements or new SDKs support
**They are taking our developer subscription money and reinvesting in a sales team for schools which has nothing to do with us and the reason we pay for our subscription in the first place.
Brent do you understand this is the end for many of us?
We won’t get features and improvement, we need unless the education market needs it too.
Telling us this as if it was a good new is almost condescending.
And for people who sinked so much time in this software and the veterans like @Armelline, @Lost_Oasis_Games etc who actually made this community what it is, thousands of tutorials and interaction with the community hence promoting your platform as well as helping you debugged the last release and keeping us informed while doing it when you guys didn’t bother to, for an update that was running 6 month late, it must feel really “(insert the word of your choice)” to read your introduction.
Same feeling goes for this post from @ForumNinja. @ForumNinja
First off, there seems to be a lot of fear that our developer base will be forgotten, which just isn't the case. We've got a very passionate community here (as mentioned above) and I think that's great! When we say that the new features won't benefit just the developer community, it doesn't mean that they won't benefit you guys, just that we'll focus on features that benefit both our developers and education users.
He’s saying we won’t get feature we need unless education market needs it too. Well guess what what we have entirely different needs So yes We Are Being Forgotten
Saying it straight is a less insulting that these type messages.
So while we will get support for Sdks and new OS for the time being…
The real question is until when? 3 month? 1 year? How long can you assure us to have or games compatible with distribution Platforms?
Also when a new IOS comes out how long will your Team of 1 part time coder take to “unbreak” Gamesalad?
This is a deal breaker if it takes 4 weeks every time..
Yes, I understand you guys hired a second coder but I’m sure his job is to work on these generality improvement and GUi
as opposed to keeping the code fresh and updated, so as far as we, developer, are concern this is a team of one: @CodeWizard
And this what what our subscription fees and $10,793,000 million got us!
As @BazookaTime said :
“Maybe I am missing something but it seems short sided to focus on education and not grow the developing side at the same time.”
or @app_sauce said:
“I think the long term success of gs is to have as many development features as possible.”
Yes, there’s a synergy between educational market and professionals.
Student want to emulate pros, they want the same tools
even in high school, when Gamesalad is no longer being developped, how long do you think school will keep your software in the classroom before they switch to something fresher with new feature that provides the “oh so important” dream of making a real working game by the end of the semester as motivation for their students?
With 1 part-time coder working once in a while on new features you guys will fall so behind that even releasing to the App Store will be unviable for school projects.
I don't think you guys are stupid, you all know this already.
Which leads me to think the scenario below:
Of course the following is a wild guess but not so wild after all…
I might add that i’m guessing because,we are not provided complete infos.
We are like investors we put money in every month for a promise but unlike investors we get no reports on ur business plan .
**This is an old school way to treat your customers,
Nowadays company are much closer to their customers, they inform on their business trial and tribulations etc… You guys are cultivating a “Russian cold war attitude”.
We deserve better.
**
The education focus seem to be a last push strategy:
The pressure is coming from the top: which is whoever invested the $10,793,000 millions in their 3 rounds of fundings
Aka: “You guys are out of money, your business model is not working out, this cost too much to develop not enough Return On Investment.
So let’s try a last run for the buck before we close shop, It might work out, let’s not go out with a fight”
While I understand this strategy.
I think Brent could be more straight forward.
This community is amazing, Many invested a lot of money and time on game salad, we all have projects, we have to make plans for. We deserve to know how long GameSalad will be supported.
How long can you guys keep the company going.
If the education focus does not work out how long do we have?
When a software dies the least they can do for their users is to be straight forward .
(For example: Uscript for unity will no longer be supported …
This is a message from their team, this is how it’s done.
They lay it all down, the money problem and the compatibility end time frame to allow people move on to something else
That’s call respect.
I might add, you guys new about the new focus for at least 8 month when guys changed the website to a education friendly theme.
Yet You took any subscription from developers without warning you won’t implement new features specifically for them.
And yes! this is my first post! and yes it is all over the place, that's because I’m passionate and invested in this salad i wish i could say the same about the new CEO and direction.
One thing for sure is that game salad was just starting to be great and the community had an amazing passionate core.
sometime your customers and community gets it better.
@Lost_Oasis_Game
“I would like to see them split the software into two versions, one for developers and one for education.”
And what about making the developers version open-source since you guys are no longer willing and able to develop it.
That’s better than dead!
Hey! great you hired a new coder "but I’m sure his job is to work on..." something else. (oops, now go back an erase that bit about 1 part-time coder)
(go make money selling crystal balls - more lucrative than games markets)
"Yes, there’s a synergy between educational market and professionals.
Student want to emulate pros, they want the same tools" (oops, go back and erase bit about having totally different needs)
"I might add, you guys [k]new about the new focus for at least 8 month when guys changed the website to a education friendly theme."
You know what, maybe the education thing shows some signs of working, maybe they're getting some good feedback and some take-up in schools, so maybe that's why they hired someone who knows about education - only speculation, but maybe better than criticising the new CEO for his writing style on the forums. (glass houses... stones...)
Oh yeah, the schools will want snap-to-grid and better stability - so do we!
Have you done anything personally to grow GS? Recommended it to your friends, sold a single more license to anyone by your advocacy? Please can we have some respect for those who do. Investing our dollars in marketing in an area with a reasonable prospect of sales is not deceitful or wasteful in any way. It is using seed cash to attract sustainable revenue streams. There's only two possibilities for more coders - higher GS membership fees or more users. They're going after more users, you say? Great!
Can you, (or Lost_Oasis_Games, or anyone) actually detail what it is that a developer might want that a high school kid, after one year of GS, would not also want?
Or like any future-facing brand that tests its new stuff on the youngest market it can find, might the teenagers actually be even better judges of what the next generation of coders needs or expects?
Repeat: Bring it on!
(PS, some of us are Educators while being Developers as well -!shock, horror!- Please don't provoke an identity crisis :-))
@marionwood That's a lot of effort to be negative!
**Like my grandpa used to say:
Is it negative to say: “ look!! the rabbit is dying, if its actually dying?
My point is : judging from recent events, what i wrote is entirely possible.
It’s not far fetch and it’s better to look for a hole in the boat than sinking at sea.
Prepare for the worse and think of everything that can possibly go wrong is how you do something great.
**
Hey! great you hired a new coder "but I’m sure his job is to work on..." something else. (oops, now go back an erase that bit about 1 part-time coder)
(go make money selling crystal balls - more lucrative than games markets)
You misunderstood. it’s call a deduction.
They hired a new coder but stated that they won’t be implementing features that would serve developers only
So yes we only have @CodeWizard apparently working only part time for anything related to developers’ needs.
"Yes, there’s a synergy between educational market and professionals.
Student want to emulate pros, they want the same tools" (oops, go back and erase bit about having totally different needs)
Some high school kids want to be just like Lebron but do they needs an agent, publicist, manager, nutritionist?LeBron has different needs ..
Get the point?
You know what, maybe the education thing shows some signs of working, maybe they're getting some good feedback and some take-up in schools, so maybe that's why they hired someone who knows about education - only speculation, but maybe better than criticising the new CEO for his writing style on the forums. (glass houses... stones...)
Nothing wrong with the education market.:.. not criticizing the new CEO writing style uh,,,,,
Please can we have some respect for those who do. Investing our dollars in marketing in an area with a reasonable prospect of sales is not deceitful or wasteful in any way. It is using seed cash to attract sustainable revenue streams. There's only two possibilities for more coders - higher GS membership fees or more users. They're going after more users, you say? Great!
**Having an Opinion is not a disrespect. I’m not the only having these concerns. **
Can you, (or Lost_Oasis_Games, or anyone) actually detail what it is that a developer might want that a high school kid, after one year of GS, would not also want?
****First, it’s not what the high school kids want, it’s what the teachers/school want. that's not quite the same.
Secondly, the very fact that you ask this question shows the root of your misunderstanding of my “ pamphlet“f first post.
It goes back to the Lebron example above**
**I’ll let someone else make a list of difference between developer and teachers’ needs.
@blob said:
Is it negative to say: “ look!! the rabbit is dying, if its actually dying?
No. But it's a bit ridiculous to say: "Look, the rabbit is dying!" when it got the flu. Yes, it is possible to die of the flu, it's not a positive thing to have the flu, but it's something completely different from the rabbit dying.
Prepare for the worse and think of everything that can possibly go wrong is how you do something great.
The beginning of that sentence is true. Prepare is the key word here. Or rather, be prepared for the worse. Thats doesn't mean think of everything bad that can happen. That will just drive you crazy. Be prepared but hope for the best. Keep going. Once you go into a depressive slump, all is for naught.
it’s call a deduction
You are deducing something from so little information that looking into a crystal ball was a good analogy. Yes, they want to focus on UI improvements (which is something users have been asking for for ages). They will do so. And when it is done -- the new coder will go and play pinball in the front lobby for the rest of his life. Well, more likely he will start working on new features.
They hired a new coder but stated that they won’t be implementing features that would serve developers only
What does this even mean? Developers only? Basically you want them to do what you tell them to? That's a bit selfish. Look at feature request threads on the Forum. Every other developer wants and needs something different. Focusing on education will give a lot of stability to the company, hopefully, which will lead to better and stabler updates down the line. You talk about waiting 4 weeks for an update. Well, LOL, you probably haven't been around for too long, because if we get updates every 4 weeks it will be a miracle!
First, it’s not what the high school kids want, it’s what the teachers/school want. that's not quite the same. [...] I’ll let someone else make a list of difference between developer and teachers’ needs.
If you want to make a point, you should be ready to back it with some concrete examples. What teachers/schools want is a stable platform that their students will be happy using and will enable them to learn advanced programming logic.
We deserve to know how long GameSalad will be supported.
As long as the company stands, has money and doesn't introduce a new, better product. Even then, GameSalad would probably be supported for some time longer.
How long can you guys keep the company going.
I think the job of the CEO is to keep the company going for as long as possible. That's part of the reason to focus on the education market, to get some stable cash flow.
If the education focus does not work out how long do we have?
That will always depend on what actually happens. Hopefully you have years ahead of you. Even if GameSalad goes under, unless you get hit by a car, you probably have at least a couple decades to look forward to. That is a lot of time. Learn! Diversify! Enjoy life!
Thanks for the update @ForumNinja and for giving a clear explanation as to current events. That's it for now and I have my faith restored a little that Gamesalad will continue to function as expected. Look forward to the impending creator fix, the roadmap and further communication from you and @bdusing.
Please let us know about subscription compensation for the lost two weeks, however personally, I would prefer you to focus all your attention on fixing GS, both in terms of the product and your business model.
Also, if there was a way for you to finally open GS development up to community development, I would see that as a way to lessen your load. Third party mods or open sourcing GS could be your golden ticket to success!
Comments
Yep.
Sad to see a switch in focus in some ways for sure, but i'm far from giving up.
I want .exe/proper steam support more then anything, But if 6 years of implementing new features hasn't worked, I don't see more years of implementing features working. Focus on what is needed for the the business to thrive, and if it's education. Great.
What's funny is a lot of people now calling for features first were the same people calling for bug fixes and UI improvements before new features get implemented.
Now we're getting just that, and everyone wants features again!
Tough crowd to please here, but as others have said, it's all passion for the product.
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I really think after they fix GS slowdown bug and members get to use it again , members will stop complaining here (regardless of the education part). I remember the frustrating moments when we were waiting for 1.25 , and then everything was great again once it was live. I dont feel that way cause i never updated to begin with , but if i did and i couldnt use GS i would probably have doubts about the engine especially with the new changes. Codewizard mentioned that the fix will be here soon and that they will give us updates later on, he is probably working really hard to fix it and make it more stable. I know its not the right time to say this, but hopefully everything will go back to normal soon.
Hope everyone had a great weekend! Just finished reading through all the comments on here and I'll go ahead and clarify some stuff for you guys.
First off, there seems to be a lot of fear that our developer base will be forgotten, which just isn't the case. We've got a very passionate community here (as mentioned above) and I think that's great! When we say that the new features won't benefit just the developer community, it doesn't mean that they won't benefit you guys, just that we'll focus on features that benefit both our developers and education users.
When we say that we're pushing for education and are focused on selling to more schools (primally grade and high schools, and potentially community colleges), know that there's good reasons behind this choice.
One reason for the focus is that there's been a big push in the education market for students to learn coding. While using GameSalad doesn't teach you coding, you can't deny that it's a great learning tool to get your head around different coding concepts (without all the pain of learning syntax), as well as a great tool to help build problem solving and logic skills.
Another reason for the education focus is that these next couple months are the prime time to sell to schools (they're all out for summer vacation here in the US).
I also saw that you guys wanted to know what we'll be working on after the slowdown fixes. As was stated earlier, we are working on a Roadmap and hope to have it all nice a pretty within the next couple weeks.
After the slowdown fix we'll look at the various UI improvements we want to make, and prioritize the order in which we want to implement them based off of development effort required etc (maybe we'll be able to incorporate the awesome work @manto has done, I'm not sure, still need to talk to CodeWizard about it).
One of the things we've talked about implementing (and @Armelline brought up when I talked to him) is some kind of way for people to export logic from one GameSalad project and import it into another. This is an example of one of those features that would benefit people trying to learn GameSalad in schools as well as our professional developers
Oh, on the development note. We recently hired Carlos Padilla, who has worked with Brent in the past. He will be helping with development as well as some other things, so we won't have just one developer!
Another big thing you guys are concerned about is compensation for the slowdown issue. This is a touchy subject, but I'll see what I can work out with Brent for you guys. One of the things that makes compensation difficult is, we don't know who all updated their Mac OS and when they did / how long they've been dealing with the issue.
I hope this helps to clarify things some!
Swift Playground is FREE and seems to do what GS was planning on doing.
GSLearn.com | Templates | Free Demos | Udemy Course
Not sure what this adds to the discussion. There are plenty of tools out there that will meet or exceed a users needs other than GS and have similar feature sets. No need to start listing them.
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"export logic from one GameSalad project and import it into another" my dream.. great news.. also Carlos welcome to GS team, hope we get introduction, well this calms me, but I am just waiting for slowness fix as I am not able to work on my project thats what is driving me crazy now..
Current Projects I am working on: Stupid Duck, Zango's Shark Adventure, AoD: Age of Dragons, Rocket Jump: The Pixel Invaders
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Thanks for the update @ForumNinja!
I'd argue that it's not doing what GS was planning to do, but there are several other crucial difference:
It's just not directly comparable.
Contact me for custom work - Expert GS developer with 15 years of GS experience - Skype: armelline.support
It is also (for now) Mac and iOS only. Swift being open source and so powerful I think will soon make it the top programming language, bit there are still strides to go.
With GameSalad, you can still make a game much quicker and also publish it on multiple platforms.
It was just announced. I don't know anything else expect that a lot of schools use iPads. So its clear that there are going to be millions of students gaining access to it. I wasn't comparing, I wasn't starting a debate, I was merely stating a fact that occurred five minutes ago.
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yea, i don't think GS has much to fear with that.... swift classes on udemy however
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@ForumNinja Im not complaining with regards to the UI improvements now being top priority after the slowdown fix, as Ive been vocal about the need for them for 5 years.
I am however interested to know why they've now been given such high priority, after years of being ignored, promised, or excuses given as to why they're too difficult to implement or have never previously been seen as a priority?... even up until a few months ago.
I'd started to think I'd be going to my grave before GS saw proper UI improvements....
For once, priorities seem to be right though... so I hope you actually follow through on the UI improvements once the slowdown has been fixed, as they benefit every user of the software, not a minority.
It's obvious - they really can't present the Creator tool as a something new and user friendly if there are some clunky bits that will need to be tuned up before GS can be well received..
It's kind of like taking your used 'beater of a car and getting it detailed and spit-shined before rolling it out on to the street corner with a fresh "For Sale" sign on it..
(that said, heaven forbid any potential School client poke around here in the forums and read any of the flames and issues surrounding GS as of late...)
@ForumNinja ,
Thanks for the reply. My guess is that this would have to be based on an honor system if you have no way to validate which users run on what OS. You could put out a separate post/message requesting those who had the OS X issue to reply. I, for one, did not have the issue.
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Great to hear about this. @Manto 's work if implemented would add UI adjustments far quicker that we had all anticipated so we hope that works out.
I'd spoken to Alex (or is that you there?- avatars being the same) about importing logic a few weeks back. it would make templates etc 10 times more useful, even more so if we import multiple logic and templates into one project file because when we build we often use dozens of resources whose code can't simply be copied across in the current builds- we end up with way too many errors.
Agreed. I've used other tools (some before coming to GS, and some even now) and while GameSalad is my favorite tool by far, the simple and elegant user interfaces of the other tools that attract me to them. Many of these other tools have darker designs, which is MUCH easier on the eyes, proper sized icons and everything as far as position and location inside the tool makes sense. I'm not saying the GameSalad interface is horrible, but it has much room for improvement. And, if UI is something the GS team is really wanting to look into, I for one am SUPER excited!
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@ForumNinja
Maybe this will help clarify things...
Go to the Spotlight and search for System Information.app then go to Software > Programs > GameSalad > Now you can see GS version number and the "last modified" date.
A screenshot of the above and a screenshot with osx version for proof?
I'm experiencing the issue but luckily my pro account expired a few days before the issue occurred so i'm waiting for the fix and then going pro again
I want £100 in used UK coins.
This is true. Our parents just made it loud and clear that coding is a priority for their children to be learning at our school.
There are MANY "learn to code" iPad apps and almost none of them actually let you create your own game/app. They are logic puzzle apps which are very good at teaching those skills but there is almost no creative element to them. It's like trying to learn photography using a digital textbook instead of a camera. GameSalad is the camera. Alright, it's much more but hopefully you get the analogy.
I do know that educators are going to be less forgiving about the lack of easy-to-use UI features like grids, zoom, window placement memory, multiple actor selection, asset folders, etc. I think developers sometimes use GameSalad so many hours a day that they just get used to workarounds but a teacher with a limited amount of time and restless students isn't going to like to have to figure out and implement such workarounds. So I think GameSalad may be pressured to improve these long-standing shortcomings... which is good for all of us.
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@socks LOL
There is no point in modifying the date because you can compare the GS and OSX date to the release date of the 1.25.05 update. It isn't bulletproof but it's something I guess
@KevinCross Eh...? Did you get custom collisions, custom fonts, and if not joints, then at least rotations that can be used to build some...? Or did I miss something? And are you seriously suggesting extra dollars wouldn't being spent on either (a) attracting more dollars (Education focus) or (b) coding (salaries)?
Stuff happens in order, its just that how long coding/debugging takes is often difficult to predict, and what the El Capitan guys will do next is impossible to guess. With more money and therefore more staff, stuff still happens in order, but just faster. Yes the custom collisions / variable frame rate fix took months when they hoped it would take weeks - but from this I gather the thing broke, well, because apparently they were trying to add more features...
I think It’s time to see the writing on the wall.
I’m very positive by nature but I’d have be to delusional to be excited about what's going at this point.
@ForumNinja informed us on June 6th that that the new CEO was working on formal Introduction to us.
4 days later we get this low energy, apathetic introduction which basically repeats what’s ForumNinja told us about fixing something they ought to.
1: hey guys we are gonna fix the horrible slowdown in El Capitan “ Euh we hope so, that’s common sense and it’s not news
.
2: additional out of place comments like:
“GameSalad is great for teaching coding concepts and problem solving skills without all the syntax of code.”
“GameSalad is very easy to get started with and use, especially with a little guidance from a teacher.”
Not the best angle to address a community of developers for the first time.
Save that pitch for the schools.
3: we will benefit from education focused improvements like General usability improvements.GUI etc…
Geez, thanks! We get to benefit from something while Gamesalad is benefiting from our money, Should we clap?
While i being a bit harsh as Brent, the new CEO, is in a difficult position, I do think he’s equally clumsy and insensitive in his approach.
I choose to be a bit harsh to contrast some excited or maybe just polite comments in this thread from people who seems to either not get it or haven’t invested time resources in Gamesalad.
The bottom line is, we pay for a service every month for which the provider just told us they will not create any features specifically for us. **
Bye bye Facebook integration, loading time improvements or new SDKs support
**They are taking our developer subscription money and reinvesting in a sales team for schools which has nothing to do with us and the reason we pay for our subscription in the first place.
Brent do you understand this is the end for many of us?
We won’t get features and improvement, we need unless the education market needs it too.
Telling us this as if it was a good new is almost condescending.
And for people who sinked so much time in this software and the veterans like @Armelline, @Lost_Oasis_Games etc who actually made this community what it is, thousands of tutorials and interaction with the community hence promoting your platform as well as helping you debugged the last release and keeping us informed while doing it when you guys didn’t bother to, for an update that was running 6 month late, it must feel really “(insert the word of your choice)” to read your introduction.
Same feeling goes for this post from @ForumNinja.
@ForumNinja
First off, there seems to be a lot of fear that our developer base will be forgotten, which just isn't the case. We've got a very passionate community here (as mentioned above) and I think that's great! When we say that the new features won't benefit just the developer community, it doesn't mean that they won't benefit you guys, just that we'll focus on features that benefit both our developers and education users.
He’s saying we won’t get feature we need unless education market needs it too. Well guess what what we have entirely different needs
So yes We Are Being Forgotten
Saying it straight is a less insulting that these type messages.
So while we will get support for Sdks and new OS for the time being…
The real question is until when? 3 month? 1 year? How long can you assure us to have or games compatible with distribution Platforms?
Also when a new IOS comes out how long will your Team of 1 part time coder take to “unbreak” Gamesalad?
This is a deal breaker if it takes 4 weeks every time..
Yes, I understand you guys hired a second coder but I’m sure his job is to work on these generality improvement and GUi
as opposed to keeping the code fresh and updated, so as far as we, developer, are concern this is a team of one: @CodeWizard
And this what what our subscription fees and $10,793,000 million got us!
As @BazookaTime said :
“Maybe I am missing something but it seems short sided to focus on education and not grow the developing side at the same time.”
or @app_sauce said:
“I think the long term success of gs is to have as many development features as possible.”
Yes, there’s a synergy between educational market and professionals.
Student want to emulate pros, they want the same tools
even in high school, when Gamesalad is no longer being developped, how long do you think school will keep your software in the classroom before they switch to something fresher with new feature that provides the “oh so important” dream of making a real working game by the end of the semester as motivation for their students?
With 1 part-time coder working once in a while on new features you guys will fall so behind that even releasing to the App Store will be unviable for school projects.
I don't think you guys are stupid, you all know this already.
Which leads me to think the scenario below:
Of course the following is a wild guess but not so wild after all…
I might add that i’m guessing because,we are not provided complete infos.
We are like investors we put money in every month for a promise but unlike investors we get no reports on ur business plan .
**This is an old school way to treat your customers,
Nowadays company are much closer to their customers, they inform on their business trial and tribulations etc… You guys are cultivating a “Russian cold war attitude”.
We deserve better.
**
The education focus seem to be a last push strategy:
The pressure is coming from the top: which is whoever invested the $10,793,000 millions in their 3 rounds of fundings
Aka: “You guys are out of money, your business model is not working out, this cost too much to develop not enough Return On Investment.
So let’s try a last run for the buck before we close shop, It might work out, let’s not go out with a fight”
While I understand this strategy.
I think Brent could be more straight forward.
This community is amazing, Many invested a lot of money and time on game salad, we all have projects, we have to make plans for.
We deserve to know how long GameSalad will be supported.
How long can you guys keep the company going.
If the education focus does not work out how long do we have?
When a software dies the least they can do for their users is to be straight forward .
(For example: Uscript for unity will no longer be supported …
This is a message from their team, this is how it’s done.
http://www.uscript.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4195
They lay it all down, the money problem and the compatibility end time frame to allow people move on to something else
That’s call respect.
I might add, you guys new about the new focus for at least 8 month when guys changed the website to a education friendly theme.
Yet You took any subscription from developers without warning you won’t implement new features specifically for them.
And yes! this is my first post! and yes it is all over the place, that's because I’m passionate and invested in this salad i wish i could say the same about the new CEO and direction.
One thing for sure is that game salad was just starting to be great and the community had an amazing passionate core.
sometime your customers and community gets it better.
@Lost_Oasis_Game
“I would like to see them split the software into two versions, one for developers and one for education.”
And what about making the developers version open-source since you guys are no longer willing and able to develop it.
That’s better than dead!
Level with us..
thank you
Welcome aboard
@blob That's a lot of effort to be negative!
Hey! great you hired a new coder "but I’m sure his job is to work on..." something else. (oops, now go back an erase that bit about 1 part-time coder)
(go make money selling crystal balls - more lucrative than games markets)
"Yes, there’s a synergy between educational market and professionals.
Student want to emulate pros, they want the same tools" (oops, go back and erase bit about having totally different needs)
"I might add, you guys [k]new about the new focus for at least 8 month when guys changed the website to a education friendly theme."
You know what, maybe the education thing shows some signs of working, maybe they're getting some good feedback and some take-up in schools, so maybe that's why they hired someone who knows about education - only speculation, but maybe better than criticising the new CEO for his writing style on the forums. (glass houses... stones...)
Oh yeah, the schools will want snap-to-grid and better stability - so do we!
Have you done anything personally to grow GS? Recommended it to your friends, sold a single more license to anyone by your advocacy? Please can we have some respect for those who do. Investing our dollars in marketing in an area with a reasonable prospect of sales is not deceitful or wasteful in any way. It is using seed cash to attract sustainable revenue streams. There's only two possibilities for more coders - higher GS membership fees or more users. They're going after more users, you say? Great!
Can you, (or Lost_Oasis_Games, or anyone) actually detail what it is that a developer might want that a high school kid, after one year of GS, would not also want?
Or like any future-facing brand that tests its new stuff on the youngest market it can find, might the teenagers actually be even better judges of what the next generation of coders needs or expects?
Repeat: Bring it on!
(PS, some of us are Educators while being Developers as well -!shock, horror!- Please don't provoke an identity crisis :-))
@marionwood That's a lot of effort to be negative!
**Like my grandpa used to say:
Is it negative to say: “ look!! the rabbit is dying, if its actually dying?
My point is : judging from recent events, what i wrote is entirely possible.
It’s not far fetch and it’s better to look for a hole in the boat than sinking at sea.
Prepare for the worse and think of everything that can possibly go wrong is how you do something great.
**
Hey! great you hired a new coder "but I’m sure his job is to work on..." something else. (oops, now go back an erase that bit about 1 part-time coder)
(go make money selling crystal balls - more lucrative than games markets)
You misunderstood. it’s call a deduction.
They hired a new coder but stated that they won’t be implementing features that would serve developers only
So yes we only have @CodeWizard apparently working only part time for anything related to developers’ needs.
"Yes, there’s a synergy between educational market and professionals.
Student want to emulate pros, they want the same tools" (oops, go back and erase bit about having totally different needs)
Some high school kids want to be just like Lebron but do they needs an agent, publicist, manager, nutritionist?LeBron has different needs ..
Get the point?
You know what, maybe the education thing shows some signs of working, maybe they're getting some good feedback and some take-up in schools, so maybe that's why they hired someone who knows about education - only speculation, but maybe better than criticising the new CEO for his writing style on the forums. (glass houses... stones...)
Nothing wrong with the education market.:.. not criticizing the new CEO writing style uh,,,,,
Please can we have some respect for those who do. Investing our dollars in marketing in an area with a reasonable prospect of sales is not deceitful or wasteful in any way. It is using seed cash to attract sustainable revenue streams. There's only two possibilities for more coders - higher GS membership fees or more users. They're going after more users, you say? Great!
**Having an Opinion is not a disrespect. I’m not the only having these concerns. **
Can you, (or Lost_Oasis_Games, or anyone) actually detail what it is that a developer might want that a high school kid, after one year of GS, would not also want?
****First, it’s not what the high school kids want, it’s what the teachers/school want. that's not quite the same.
Secondly, the very fact that you ask this question shows the root of your misunderstanding of my “ pamphlet“f first post.
It goes back to the Lebron example above**
**I’ll let someone else make a list of difference between developer and teachers’ needs.
Wow... its getting hot in here! lol
Also @CodeWizard / @ForumNinja...
So, is there any light to be shed yet regarding the lag fix (Caused from the OS X 10.11.5 update)
Thanks guys
No. But it's a bit ridiculous to say: "Look, the rabbit is dying!" when it got the flu. Yes, it is possible to die of the flu, it's not a positive thing to have the flu, but it's something completely different from the rabbit dying.
The beginning of that sentence is true. Prepare is the key word here. Or rather, be prepared for the worse. Thats doesn't mean think of everything bad that can happen. That will just drive you crazy. Be prepared but hope for the best. Keep going. Once you go into a depressive slump, all is for naught.
You are deducing something from so little information that looking into a crystal ball was a good analogy. Yes, they want to focus on UI improvements (which is something users have been asking for for ages). They will do so. And when it is done -- the new coder will go and play pinball in the front lobby for the rest of his life. Well, more likely he will start working on new features.
What does this even mean? Developers only? Basically you want them to do what you tell them to? That's a bit selfish. Look at feature request threads on the Forum. Every other developer wants and needs something different. Focusing on education will give a lot of stability to the company, hopefully, which will lead to better and stabler updates down the line. You talk about waiting 4 weeks for an update. Well, LOL, you probably haven't been around for too long, because if we get updates every 4 weeks it will be a miracle!
If you want to make a point, you should be ready to back it with some concrete examples. What teachers/schools want is a stable platform that their students will be happy using and will enable them to learn advanced programming logic.
As long as the company stands, has money and doesn't introduce a new, better product. Even then, GameSalad would probably be supported for some time longer.
I think the job of the CEO is to keep the company going for as long as possible. That's part of the reason to focus on the education market, to get some stable cash flow.
That will always depend on what actually happens. Hopefully you have years ahead of you. Even if GameSalad goes under, unless you get hit by a car, you probably have at least a couple decades to look forward to. That is a lot of time. Learn! Diversify! Enjoy life!
Thanks for the update @ForumNinja and for giving a clear explanation as to current events. That's it for now and I have my faith restored a little that Gamesalad will continue to function as expected. Look forward to the impending creator fix, the roadmap and further communication from you and @bdusing.
Please let us know about subscription compensation for the lost two weeks, however personally, I would prefer you to focus all your attention on fixing GS, both in terms of the product and your business model.
Also, if there was a way for you to finally open GS development up to community development, I would see that as a way to lessen your load. Third party mods or open sourcing GS could be your golden ticket to success!
http://forums.gamesalad.com/discussion/92377/os-x-10-12-beta-fixes-lag-i-believe#latest
"the rabbit is dying of the flu" - we are getting so deep