Tumble Jumble released 9 months ago took 4 of us 6 months to make, we got a publishing deal with the #1 Chillingo and the marketing was pretty heavy as you would expect.
TJ had 64 levels and an unlimited number of user created levels (you can make your own levels and upload to our server so players can download and play).
We had facebook connect, post your times and level to your friends.
Online top 100 leader board for each level.
We had a Lite also with url to full.
We got an Xmas feature in N&N on the app store.
We have made to date approx $3500 split between 4 using an engine far more advanced the gamesalad.
please don't take this the wrong way. I am really trying to help you not waste your money.
This is obviously a debate you are continually going through at the moment due to the disappointing sales you have had from commove and arcade action, I've read it a few times. I don't think a pro license would have helped either of these games to make any more money. They're just not appealing, mass-market games. Try making a free version of either game (or even better make one of the whole games completely free for a month) and see if you get enough download numbers to justify url forwarding or iAds.
I really wouldn't spend any money on pro until you can make the games that url forwarding would actually be useful for. Same with the GS splash screen, unless a big review site would look at it at all, it's gonna make no difference. And iAds would need serious numbers of free downloads to be useful. I really think you would be looking at the same number of sales, but starting from -$2000 on your balance sheet.
sorry again, but $2K is a lot to see someone lose.
StusApps said: This is obviously a debate you are continually going through at the moment due to the disappointing sales you have had from commove and arcade action, I've read it a few times.
Commove did well. On the iPad, it did very well. It's one of the reasons why I consider GameSalad (Express) a success. As for Arcade Action, it got buried on launch day. I don't feel the game lost because it was a bad game. I enjoy playing it. So, how do I revive it? A lite version with iAds would be the most logical and ethical way. I don't want to ripoff the few people that did buy the game. Killing the app and re-releasing it is not an option.
With the OpenURL behavior, I could use the "lite" version of Arcade Action to revive the paid version. That's only a start. From there, I could make more free games. I'd reach more people and build up web traffic to my site.
From what's been disclosed on this forum, it seems highly likely that some decent games could make $5-$10 a day with iAds. Over a year, that would cover the cost of Pro. The profit would come from increased sales via hyperlinks. Also, with more free apps, I'd have increased brand awareness. I could use my games to promote my Books, my website, my forum and my apps.
It's disappointing to me, because it seems I'd get that for far less with Unity. Sure, I'd have to work a lot harder, but then my games could be a lot better. I see that theme a lot... make better games to make more money... that argument works against GameSalad. No matter how good I get, it's still a 2D engine that's unoptimized - slow loading times and performance issues.
Also, I think a lot of iPhone / iPod Touch users are reluctant to use their credit cards. With iAds, I can gain access to that market. For both the Android Market and the iTunes Store, I only download free apps. Why should I expect my customers to do something that I would not?
@Photics - If you ever have any questions about Unity or C# just shoot me a message and I will help. I've had Unity since early 2009, but have not started using it seriously until recently. Far as C# goes, I can help out there for sure as I have been using it for many years.
Once 3.0 comes out (I have the beta of course) it will be real nice to maintain the project in one place and build to many devices. Currently using 1.7 iPhone and 2.6 Unity is a pain because projects cannot be shared, and I like to prototype in Unity 2.x, so I can't wait.
My content pipeline is Modo 3D (simply AWESOME), Photoshop CS4, and sometimes Blender 3D for CA. But for 99% of the stuff, just Modo to Unity using Collada format. I can animate a 3D object in Modo, save it, then load it into Unity, drag it to my scene and it is animating in my game with zero code (if its just a static anim). Since my art skills are not great, I rely on 3D because I am very good at 3D. So I model my objects, render them out (with normal maps too for detail) as 2D art where it then becomes a sprite in my 2D game.
I came here to try Game Salad as a tool for just 2D art. I heard a lot about it and figured it might be better than Unity for strictly 2D. But the more I see its limitations, the more I keep thinking of Unity. If all you want to do in Unity is 2D stuff, you can get an addon called Sprite Manager 2 and its counter part GUI Manager 2, and you will be set to go. The coding, and I suggest you use C#, is not going to be difficult really.
I stand by my position that it is gambling. Or investing, or speculation, or whatever you want. There is no guarantee that you will make it back or even come close to breaking even. Or it might make you a millionaire.
Regardless, I WILL renew my Pro membership when it is up in January. I believe in what Gendai have created. I love using this software and I want to continue using it. My success is dependant on theirs. I would buy the express version if it was 2000$
firemaplegames said: I stand by my position that it is gambling. Or investing, or speculation, or whatever you want. There is no guarantee that you will make it back or even come close to breaking even. Or it might make you a millionaire.
If somebody offered you $5K to make an app for them - with the stipulation that no other branding appears on the app except their own - THEN I would buy Pro. Absorb the cost of Pro into that first app and hopefully use that app to get more clients.
And sure being an entrepreneur involves risks, but spending your hard-earned money on an experiment to see if iAds or URL forwarding works seems a little unwise.
If you want to take risks, I think a better one is to put that money back into your game. Hire professional artists and musicians to really make the game shine.
I make between 30 cents and 1.38$ with iAds each day. That is for both of my lite apps combined. They get about 500 downloads a day.
They also both have URL forwarding. But I have no idea if that works or not. I assume it can't hurt, but I did not notice a difference at all when I added it.
It has been my experience that you will NOT make back the $2000. I have made more than that, but I do not feel like it is because of the Pro features. I am pretty positive that I could have made the exact same amount of money with the express version.
Even though I have Pro, I did not even bother to switch out any of the splash screens. I do not think it matters.
But maybe it does. Some day I will replace them and let you know if sales increase. I doubt it.
I met most of the GameSalad team at MacWorld a few months ago. They are a great group of nice, humble, smart guys. I don't mind giving each of them a few hundred bucks as a thank you for making such cool software. I hope they can keep working on the software for a long time.
And I totally agree that everybody should try making games in Unity, or Torque, or Corona, or Xcode. See what you like best. Everyone enjoys different ways of working.
Unity and Corona both have free trials. And Xcode is totally free.
firemaplegames said:There is no guarantee that you will make it back or even come close to breaking even. Or it might make you a millionaire.
By the same logic, driving would be gambling. There's no guarantee that you won't get squished by a truck. Eating would be gambling, because it might contain eggs poisoned with salmonella. It's not gambling because it's not about CHANCE. It's about SKILL. In a car you wear your seat-belt and watch out for danger. When eating, you cook your food and buy it from good places. With GameSalad, you make a business plan and make good games.
If you have a big client lined up, it's easy to make the jump to pro. Yet, how many pros would actually hire someone from the GameSalad community? If I was looking to hire someone to make an app, I'd probably choose a Unity developer rather than GameSalad. That's the problem. Gendai Games is charging pro level prices, but is the software pro level? It's still in beta. The price should reflect reality.
1) Competitors charge less but do more. 2) Competitors, buy the software once -- no subscription 3) iAds and Hyperlinks are included in the basic version of Unity 4) IT'S A BETA! Is it really a fair price to pay for unfinished software?
I think Gendai Games is great. The software is fun and the community is great. Part of me thinks, "Oh come on Mike! They're cool dudes. Give them some money!" But unfortunately, that would be irresponsible of me. I'm not gambling with my money. I'm making a plan. If iAds and Hyperlinks are most important to me, it can be done with Unity for much less. The only drawback is the difficulty involved. But if I can master the software, my apps gain ubiquity - Mac, PC, Android, iOS, Web.
I think GS is a great piece of software for those who are too lazy to code - me being one of them from time to time (which is terrible because I'm a programmer by trade, although office apps, which is much different), but it helps you get a game on the app store, which is a win. If you are serious about getting clients, releasing social-network-capable apps, having your own or no splash screen, or implementing iAds, I would honestly invest the little bit of time and $99 to learn a bit of code and use Corona. Less financial investment, which is always a big thing for a start up no matter how big.
Photics said: By the same logic, driving would be gambling. There's no guarantee that you won't get squished by a truck. Eating would be gambling, because it might contain eggs poisoned with salmonella. It's not gambling because it's not about CHANCE. It's about SKILL. In a car you wear your seat-belt and watch out for danger. When eating, you cook your food and buy it from good places. With GameSalad, you make a business plan and make good games.
You're right, these things *are* gambling. Because they have variables out of your control that could determine the outcome. You could be the best driver in the world, but outside factors can still make you crash. You can be anal about how you cook your food, and where you get it from but there are still outside factors that could affect the quality of the food, and how that might affect you.
Like you say, you make a business plan and make good games. It certainly helps to fill the car with petrol, look out for danger and wear a seatbelt. But that did !@#$% all for Utopiangames until Bumps came out and was featured by Apple.
There are NO guarantees. To think there are, that you deserve 'success', or that the world owes you because you worked hard on your games, is NOT the way to think.
Everyone buying into this software is taking a risk. They invest, at minimum, $200, and hope to make that back.
If you're investing $2k - there's a much bigger risk. And as an individual, you have to weigh up if you're willing to take that risk for that much.
But there's a reason Gendai Games doesn't guarantee you'll make your money back.
quantumsheep said: You're right, these things *are* gambling. Because they have variables out of your control that could determine the outcome.
If you have a food addiction or driving addiction do you call Gambler's Anonymous?
No, I don't think so!
I don't think Pro is a gamble... not for me. There is little doubt in my mind that I could make the $2000 back. Sure, if I simply get bored and work on something else during the year, I wouldn't make my money back. That's not chance. That's logic. By making some great games, or lots of good games, I'm thinking $6 a day iAds is quite possible.
This isn't betting or buying lottery tickets. Bumps shows why it's not a gamble. If you keep making better and better games, you'll eventually find success. With gambling, the more you play the more likely you'll lose.
Photics said: This isn't betting or buying lottery tickets. Bumps shows why it's not a gamble. If you keep making better and better games, you'll eventually find success. With gambling, the more you play the more likely you'll lose.
Dude. Does "If you keep making better and better games, you'll eventually find success" not sound like "If I keep playing the slot machines, eventually I'll get a payout"?
Yes, there's more skill in making games, and you can try and skew the outcome favourably. But it's still a gamble because you don't know for sure if the time and money invested will pay off.
quantumsheep said: Dude. Does "If you keep making better and better games, you'll eventually find success" not sound like "If I keep playing the slot machines, eventually I'll get a payout"?
No, because I'm looking back at the past year. Was buying a Mac Mini a gamble? No, it was an investment. After a year, I created a bunch of apps, learned new skills, wrote/published a book and I had fun! That's not something you typically get from a lottery ticket.
Each new GameSalad project lead to more success... except for Arcade Action... and that's because of three main reasons... 1) release day technical issue... 2) it was designed for iAds... 3) I focused more on the textbook. I think that was a good decision.
Today, I'm actually starting to think Pro is a good idea.
I don't know, but right now I feel stuck. I feel limited with only paid apps. I have more experience with advertisement based content. So, that means either I learn new software (Unity) or I upgrade to Pro. To me, it's not a gamble. It's a commitment. It says for the next year I'll be working with GameSalad. Do I limit myself with that software or does it play on my strengths?
I'm realizing that it's not just about making money. It's about passion. I like what Gendai Games is doing. I'm not just a developer here. By publishing the Textbook, I'm more of advocate. By using GameSalad, I'm sending a message to the world. It says, "NO! I don't talk to machines. They work for me!" Even though I know how to code, why should I have to? Computers are supposed to make life easier, so why do I have to worry about Javascript, Objective-C or whatever arcane computer language that some uber geeks will likely render obsolete? I learned that early on in computer life, when computers stopped running on Basic.
Instead of spending the next 1-3 months learning new software, I could make 3-10 games with GameSalad.
My issues... -- The software is not competitively priced -- The software is slow to update (It's been a while since GameSalad had an impressive update.) -- Communication with Gendai Games is not as good as it should be -- The software is limited. (Not a 3D engine, can't be customized.)
Yet... -- The software is easy -- I'm already familiar with the software and I have projects ready to go. -- The software is getting better (With Game Center and improved performance, do I really need 3D?) -- SPEED! A game can be made in less than an hour. That's insane! -- The community rocks. -- I like Gendai Games. They're cool.
The last year was pretty rough, but one of the cool things was GameSalad. That's very important to me! While the economy and the news was fllled with doom and gloom, GameSalad made life fun. I will think on this some more, but I'm starting to feel like I should go for it. I believe in my abilities and I'm impressed with the software. I'm thinking I should go Pro.
I would buy Pro for all the reasons in your Yet... column.
I disagree with all of the things in your issues column.
I DO think it is competitively priced. That ease of use is not something to be taken lightly. I think GameSalad is more powerful than all of the other engines because of it.
And to be clear about Unity: If you want to remove the Unity Splash screen, it cost $1200 - and that is because it is on sale right now. Normally it is $1500. And that does not include the Iphone development package, which is currently on sale for $300, not $500.
Ordinarily that would cost $2000. Getting Unity Pro + the iPhone Pro package is usually $3000.
Which I think is a great price actually, but you still need to be proficient in C# to get the most out of the software. Mastering ANY language is not a trivial task.
And iPhone development will ALWAYS be in beta. This platform changes sooo rapidly. New devices and operating systems come out every few months. Making software that works on everything is brutal.
firemaplegames said: I DO think it is competitively priced.
It's a subscription though. I bought Flash 4 about a decade ago. If I didn't already upgrade it, I could still use the software today. I don't think the price of Pro is competitive because of the 1-year subscription. I don't get to keep the software.
BarkBarkCo said: And think, once/if you make the investment, you just be that much more motivated to get quality stuff pushed out with GameSalad...
That's a big concern. For one year, I'd have to be completely focused to maximize the value of Pro. That's a lot of pressure. When the 1-year mark is up, I might have to make the decision again. So, it's more pressure, but also a source of motivation.
Comments
TJ had 64 levels and an unlimited number of user created levels (you can make your own levels and upload to our server so players can download and play).
We had facebook connect, post your times and level to your friends.
Online top 100 leader board for each level.
We had a Lite also with url to full.
We got an Xmas feature in N&N on the app store.
We have made to date approx $3500 split between 4 using an engine far more advanced the gamesalad.
Check the Lite out it's a good solid game.
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tumble-jumble-lite/id342671950?mt=8
Good games can fail that's why we wont pay $2K a year for pro.
Darren.
Do you have any info on the engine you used for TJ?
He is currently adding in Android and windows mobile.
Not sure if he will license it out to any body but i know Zombie Dash was also made with his engine.
Darren.
please don't take this the wrong way. I am really trying to help you not waste your money.
This is obviously a debate you are continually going through at the moment due to the disappointing sales you have had from commove and arcade action, I've read it a few times. I don't think a pro license would have helped either of these games to make any more money. They're just not appealing, mass-market games. Try making a free version of either game (or even better make one of the whole games completely free for a month) and see if you get enough download numbers to justify url forwarding or iAds.
I really wouldn't spend any money on pro until you can make the games that url forwarding would actually be useful for. Same with the GS splash screen, unless a big review site would look at it at all, it's gonna make no difference. And iAds would need serious numbers of free downloads to be useful. I really think you would be looking at the same number of sales, but starting from -$2000 on your balance sheet.
sorry again, but $2K is a lot to see someone lose.
With the OpenURL behavior, I could use the "lite" version of Arcade Action to revive the paid version. That's only a start. From there, I could make more free games. I'd reach more people and build up web traffic to my site.
From what's been disclosed on this forum, it seems highly likely that some decent games could make $5-$10 a day with iAds. Over a year, that would cover the cost of Pro. The profit would come from increased sales via hyperlinks. Also, with more free apps, I'd have increased brand awareness. I could use my games to promote my Books, my website, my forum and my apps.
It's disappointing to me, because it seems I'd get that for far less with Unity. Sure, I'd have to work a lot harder, but then my games could be a lot better. I see that theme a lot... make better games to make more money... that argument works against GameSalad. No matter how good I get, it's still a 2D engine that's unoptimized - slow loading times and performance issues.
Once 3.0 comes out (I have the beta of course) it will be real nice to maintain the project in one place and build to many devices. Currently using 1.7 iPhone and 2.6 Unity is a pain because projects cannot be shared, and I like to prototype in Unity 2.x, so I can't wait.
My content pipeline is Modo 3D (simply AWESOME), Photoshop CS4, and sometimes Blender 3D for CA. But for 99% of the stuff, just Modo to Unity using Collada format. I can animate a 3D object in Modo, save it, then load it into Unity, drag it to my scene and it is animating in my game with zero code (if its just a static anim). Since my art skills are not great, I rely on 3D because I am very good at 3D. So I model my objects, render them out (with normal maps too for detail) as 2D art where it then becomes a sprite in my 2D game.
I came here to try Game Salad as a tool for just 2D art. I heard a lot about it and figured it might be better than Unity for strictly 2D. But the more I see its limitations, the more I keep thinking of Unity. If all you want to do in Unity is 2D stuff, you can get an addon called Sprite Manager 2 and its counter part GUI Manager 2, and you will be set to go. The coding, and I suggest you use C#, is not going to be difficult really.
Regardless, I WILL renew my Pro membership when it is up in January. I believe in what Gendai have created. I love using this software and I want to continue using it. My success is dependant on theirs. I would buy the express version if it was 2000$
It's a lottery.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
And sure being an entrepreneur involves risks, but spending your hard-earned money on an experiment to see if iAds or URL forwarding works seems a little unwise.
If you want to take risks, I think a better one is to put that money back into your game. Hire professional artists and musicians to really make the game shine.
I make between 30 cents and 1.38$ with iAds each day. That is for both of my lite apps combined. They get about 500 downloads a day.
They also both have URL forwarding. But I have no idea if that works or not. I assume it can't hurt, but I did not notice a difference at all when I added it.
It has been my experience that you will NOT make back the $2000. I have made more than that, but I do not feel like it is because of the Pro features. I am pretty positive that I could have made the exact same amount of money with the express version.
Even though I have Pro, I did not even bother to switch out any of the splash screens. I do not think it matters.
But maybe it does. Some day I will replace them and let you know if sales increase. I doubt it.
I met most of the GameSalad team at MacWorld a few months ago. They are a great group of nice, humble, smart guys. I don't mind giving each of them a few hundred bucks as a thank you for making such cool software. I hope they can keep working on the software for a long time.
And I totally agree that everybody should try making games in Unity, or Torque, or Corona, or Xcode.
See what you like best. Everyone enjoys different ways of working.
Unity and Corona both have free trials. And Xcode is totally free.
If you have a big client lined up, it's easy to make the jump to pro. Yet, how many pros would actually hire someone from the GameSalad community? If I was looking to hire someone to make an app, I'd probably choose a Unity developer rather than GameSalad. That's the problem. Gendai Games is charging pro level prices, but is the software pro level? It's still in beta. The price should reflect reality.
1) Competitors charge less but do more.
2) Competitors, buy the software once -- no subscription
3) iAds and Hyperlinks are included in the basic version of Unity
4) IT'S A BETA! Is it really a fair price to pay for unfinished software?
I think Gendai Games is great. The software is fun and the community is great. Part of me thinks, "Oh come on Mike! They're cool dudes. Give them some money!" But unfortunately, that would be irresponsible of me. I'm not gambling with my money. I'm making a plan. If iAds and Hyperlinks are most important to me, it can be done with Unity for much less. The only drawback is the difficulty involved. But if I can master the software, my apps gain ubiquity - Mac, PC, Android, iOS, Web.
You could be the best driver in the world, but outside factors can still make you crash. You can be anal about how you cook your food, and where you get it from but there are still outside factors that could affect the quality of the food, and how that might affect you.
Like you say, you make a business plan and make good games. It certainly helps to fill the car with petrol, look out for danger and wear a seatbelt. But that did !@#$% all for Utopiangames until Bumps came out and was featured by Apple.
There are NO guarantees. To think there are, that you deserve 'success', or that the world owes you because you worked hard on your games, is NOT the way to think.
Everyone buying into this software is taking a risk. They invest, at minimum, $200, and hope to make that back.
If you're investing $2k - there's a much bigger risk. And as an individual, you have to weigh up if you're willing to take that risk for that much.
But there's a reason Gendai Games doesn't guarantee you'll make your money back.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
No, I don't think so!
I don't think Pro is a gamble... not for me. There is little doubt in my mind that I could make the $2000 back. Sure, if I simply get bored and work on something else during the year, I wouldn't make my money back. That's not chance. That's logic. By making some great games, or lots of good games, I'm thinking $6 a day iAds is quite possible.
This isn't betting or buying lottery tickets. Bumps shows why it's not a gamble. If you keep making better and better games, you'll eventually find success. With gambling, the more you play the more likely you'll lose.
Yes, there's more skill in making games, and you can try and skew the outcome favourably. But it's still a gamble because you don't know for sure if the time and money invested will pay off.
Why can't you see that?
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
If I keep buying enough tickets...
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Each new GameSalad project lead to more success... except for Arcade Action... and that's because of three main reasons... 1) release day technical issue... 2) it was designed for iAds... 3) I focused more on the textbook. I think that was a good decision.
Today, I'm actually starting to think Pro is a good idea.
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Or the next day?
I'm realizing that it's not just about making money. It's about passion. I like what Gendai Games is doing. I'm not just a developer here. By publishing the Textbook, I'm more of advocate. By using GameSalad, I'm sending a message to the world. It says, "NO! I don't talk to machines. They work for me!" Even though I know how to code, why should I have to? Computers are supposed to make life easier, so why do I have to worry about Javascript, Objective-C or whatever arcane computer language that some uber geeks will likely render obsolete? I learned that early on in computer life, when computers stopped running on Basic.
Instead of spending the next 1-3 months learning new software, I could make 3-10 games with GameSalad.
My issues...
-- The software is not competitively priced
-- The software is slow to update (It's been a while since GameSalad had an impressive update.)
-- Communication with Gendai Games is not as good as it should be
-- The software is limited. (Not a 3D engine, can't be customized.)
Yet...
-- The software is easy
-- I'm already familiar with the software and I have projects ready to go.
-- The software is getting better (With Game Center and improved performance, do I really need 3D?)
-- SPEED! A game can be made in less than an hour. That's insane!
-- The community rocks.
-- I like Gendai Games. They're cool.
The last year was pretty rough, but one of the cool things was GameSalad. That's very important to me! While the economy and the news was fllled with doom and gloom, GameSalad made life fun. I will think on this some more, but I'm starting to feel like I should go for it. I believe in my abilities and I'm impressed with the software. I'm thinking I should go Pro.
I disagree with all of the things in your issues column.
I DO think it is competitively priced. That ease of use is not something to be taken lightly. I think GameSalad is more powerful than all of the other engines because of it.
And to be clear about Unity: If you want to remove the Unity Splash screen, it cost $1200 - and that is because it is on sale right now. Normally it is $1500. And that does not include the Iphone development package, which is currently on sale for $300, not $500.
Ordinarily that would cost $2000.
Getting Unity Pro + the iPhone Pro package is usually $3000.
Which I think is a great price actually, but you still need to be proficient in C# to get the most out of the software. Mastering ANY language is not a trivial task.
And iPhone development will ALWAYS be in beta. This platform changes sooo rapidly. New devices and operating systems come out every few months. Making software that works on everything is brutal.