I was one button click away from ordering Pro today, but it's just too expensive. That alone wasn't enough to stop me, as I believe that I can make the money back, but I spotted some interesting words...
For Express and Pro there's a "Enter a discount code" link. That's what really bothers me. It's knowing that I could spend $1999 today and someone else could be getting it for $499 tomorrow. I know that a lot of "Pro" subscriptions are about to expire. I also know that there are a lot of members that are uncertain about upgrading to "Pro". So logically, it makes sense to wait for a sale or simply a reduction in price.
$1999 is not competitive. It's simply isn't. That's a subscription fee. After a year, the elite access is gone. I'm not comfortable with that idea.
...and so we come full circle to ask users what they would pay.
$500 a year Pro or $2K for life.
I want pro i want it real bad, i can afford it but it isn't priced right, sure they can charge what they want it's a brilliant package but it also restricts a lot of users who can't, won't buy because it's $2K a year.
Maybe make 10 games get them all nearly ready buy pro and release all in one go
Pro is overpriced at a 2k/year sub. Basically what they are saying is "get Pro if you have a quality enough product that you can eat the 2k fee and earn far more than that in app royalties". They are price gouging and hoping to nail people 2k per release, on the higher quality games.
Clearly, the lesser quality apps or the apps where people are on the fence don't matter to them. They see it as GS advertising, while they still milk the 2K out of all the serious app makers.
Honestly, for 2K it should be a perpetual license to the product and not a subscription. If I spend 2K on Unity I basically get all I need to make iPhone games without Unity branding and access to all features.
If GS ran faster and performed better and had many more features, the 2k fee would be more palatable. As it is, they are asking too much for too little.
With all due respect, this is just nuts. You guys have got to stop throwing moral insults at GameSalad for it's pricing structure. IT'S A FREE MARKET, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE PRO! The basic version is a massive bargain.
I wish I could buy an Aston Martin for the price of a Toyota Prius... with the same fuel efficiency.
design219 said: With all due respect, this is just nuts. You guys have got to stop throwing moral insults at GameSalad for it's pricing structure. IT'S A FREE MARKET, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THE PRO! The basic version is a massive bargain.
I wish I could buy an Aston Martin for the price of a Toyota Prius... with the same fuel efficiency.
design219 said: With all due respect, this is just nuts.
I'm not making any such argument about morality... except to say a "brute-force script" is not the ideal solution for this issue. Gendai Games has a right to charge $1999 for the Pro version of the software. Yet, it seems likely that the price is too high and it might be costing them more revenue.
That's the benefit of a forum. Gendai Games can gain better insight to the status of the community.
Did you notice how few people are arguing for Pro? That's an issue. Imagine if this was a discussion for Express. "I don't know guys, $99 is a lot of money." There would be two common responses... either the situation would be mocked or $99 would be explained as insignificant. A good developer can easily make $99 with GameSalad in a month. That leaves the other 11 months to enjoy.
So, the question becomes more about economics. How many people here have made more than $2000 with GameSalad in a year? I can think of a few people... Tshirtbooth, Utopian Games and Firemaplegames. They're the elite developers around here, yet, they're not huge advocates for Pro. Utopian Games is totally against it, Tshirtbooth is undecided and Firemaplegames suggests it if you have clients lined up. Yet, it's not even clear to me if Pro could be used to make games for others.
It's a big decision, almost like buying a car, so I think it's important to feel comfortable about it. Yet, this thread isn't filled with encouragement. "Good, you've taken your first step into a larger world." ...or something Obi Wan Kenobi might say. Instead, there are suggestions that buying Pro is like gambling. I also realized that I could get more for less with alternative software suites.
This community is very encouraging... except when it comes to buying a Pro subscription. That should send a very strong message to Gendai Games.
BarkBarkCo said: @design219, People are entitled to their opinions. To me, you're condescending remarks are as offensive as the "moral insults" you are dismissing...
How was what design wrote condescending?
Far as I can see, it's a fact. You don't HAVE to buy the pro. Indeed, many current pro users probably won't stay pro once their subs have been used up. Others have seen the price and bought into it.
I have no intention of being high and mighty, but some of us have been around since the days where there was NO price and NO appstore publishing. This conversation has been going on in one form or another since last october's "early access program" which was a one tier pricing plan of $500. Shortly thereafter Gendai put the current price plan in place and upgraded the early access people to pro for no extra cost. Since then, there has been "wink wink" hinting in some yellow posts that gendai would be glad to accept your $2000 but currently getting the word out about GS is where their priorities are. So I also find myself frustrated with these threads that have been going on for 7 or 8 months now because it misses the point - Gendai knows that pro is not worth $2000 that is why it is priced at $2000 so that more good games are made that feature the GS logo at the beginning. So we can sit here and talk about how it is wrong or bad business or whatever, but I think we should at least have an informed discussion. I can't seem to find the yellow posts that I am referring to above, but it's the truth. Maybe their approach has changed or is changing but at one point in time gendai clearly preferred to have as many gs splash screens in the appstore as possible.
quantumsheep said: How was what design wrote condescending?
Telling us to stop insulting Gendai + Yelling at us about the "free market" + asinine and belittling analogy = condescending
It's that simple, surely?
@scitunes, If Pro was supposed to be a joke, then why not make the only pro feature the removal of the GS logo? That doesn't quite explain their model...
In addition to what Scitunes has said, Gendai recently got $1 Million worth of investment. I don't see them worried about anyone *not* buying the pro and sticking with the express version.
Having said *that*, I have a feeling something's on the way about all this. If you look at the big picture post, it's interesting that all the features that people have been asking for - GameCentre, Online leaderboards, social network integration - will *not* be pro features.
Your opinion. You guys insulting us for "insulting" Gendai doesn't help...
@scitunes #2, I don't understand why you're frustrated at us for "missing the point" when you can't even find this mysterious yellow post. I'm not questioning you search ability. I'm just pointing out that Gendai isn't really trying to propagate that "point", if it is even truly their position.
It would be interesting to know how many Pro memberships there are. There might well be many that never post on the forums. The studio that did the Vampire Surgeon game came out of nowhere. It seems they do not participate in the forum.
BarkBarkCo said: @scitunes #2, I don't understand why you're frustrated at us for "missing the point" when you can't even find this mysterious yellow post. I'm not questioning your search ability. I'm just pointing out that Gendai isn't really trying to propagate that "point", if it is even truly their position.
scitunes said: Gendai knows that pro is not worth $2000 that is why it is priced at $2000 so that more good games are made that feature the GS logo at the beginning.
If it was just logo removal, I doubt I would be having an issue with this. I like the GameSalad logo. It's cute. The problem is iAds and Hyperlinks, two features that I think would dramatically improve revenue.
Scitunes, you're basically hitting the core of this issue. Gendai Games wants to promote their software. I'm totally cool with that. Yet, what would I do if I had pro today? I'd probably be putting in banner ads that would say something like, "Learn how to make this game with The Unofficial GameSalad Textbook."
So, their approach is actually counter-productive. Because iAds and hyperlinks are restricted to Pro, I'm starting to drift. I'm wondering if Corona or Unity are acceptable alternatives. If I do manage to learn Unity, why would I return to GameSalad?
Also, if you look at Touch Arcade and iTunes reviews, many gamers do not act well to the GameSalad logo... probably because it takes so long to load.
quantumsheep said: Having said *that*, I have a feeling something's on the way about all this. If you look at the big picture post, it's interesting that all the features that people have been asking for - GameCentre, Online leaderboards, social network integration - will *not* be pro features.
Ask yourself 'why?'
I too noticed that a lot of big features are not Pro. I sense that a change to their pricing structure in the immediate future is possible. That's one of the main reasons why I hesitated to buy Pro. It's been a while since Gendai Games made a big announcement. And with $1,000,000 in their corner, it suggests that a major change could be working through the system. Gendai Games has been incredibly silent lately, even more than usual.
Although, I'm not sure if that means Pro is going away. Gendai Games could still be saving the money-making features for Pro... like in-app purchases.
Here's my point. All I am saying is that in my opinion no one is saying anything that Gendai doesn't already know and they may even agree with you guys that pro the pro features are not worth $2000.
@ BarkBark - I don't appreciate being called a liar which is basically what you are doing with the double quote post. I have been a helpful member of this community for over a year and never has my integrity been called into question.
Here's one link I found. Granted it is subtle but you'll notice codemonkey's wording ("entirely") and the final
I read it as saying "you are totally correct except of course we'll take your money if you want to give it."
@scitunes, I'm really sorry if my sarcasm didn't quite penetrate... ;-)
I was only saying that if there is just ONE post about this EVER, it must not be a high priority for Gendai to educate the community of this fact. Your frustration is misplace, imho.
P.S. Your help in the community is not something I would question and I am extremely thankful to you and everyone else that helps this rag tag group of indies out!
Dude, the objective fact is that it's a free market, and Gendai can charge what the hell they like.
People may look at the price and moan about it, especially if compared to the competition. But that doesn't change the fact that it's priced the way Gendai want to price it.
People may drift to other engines because of this. That's entirely their decision. But telling Gendai they're morally bankrupt pricing it the way they do is wrong.
Your opinion is that it should be cheaper. Fine. That's your opinion. It also happens to be my opinion. I agree with you!
But I'm not going to 'insult' Gendai and say they're morally wrong. That's a subjective point of view. And the objective fact is that they could charge $10000 and still be well within their rights.
"Price Gouging" can refer to a monopoly corporation that charges higher than they could in a competitive market.
GS is they ONLY player in the easy-to-use GUI iPhone game development market, otherwise know as a monopoly.
That's how you see it, and that's fair enough.
Then why are people even comparing GS to Unity or Torque?
And doesn't Torque have plug-ins you can buy that essentially makes game creation GUI based (till you have to connect everything together using code)?
Truth is, there are *several* ways of getting an iPhone game to market. There's a lot of choice. People weigh up the pros and cons and pick the one that's suited to them!
That doesn't sound like a monopoly to me. Sorry.
BTW - got nothing against you personally, to be clear. This is an interesting discussion though, and I'd much rather be talking the facts with you than slinging abuse
quantumsheep said: Apart from calling Design 'condescending' for pointing it out!
Just because I don't like being talked to like a child, doesn't mean I don't agree with everything you say...there's a difference, which I hope you can see.
Price gouging happens in this market. If this is a "free market", then it can happen in a "free market"...
Comments
http://gamesalad.com/membership/pricing
For Express and Pro there's a "Enter a discount code" link. That's what really bothers me. It's knowing that I could spend $1999 today and someone else could be getting it for $499 tomorrow. I know that a lot of "Pro" subscriptions are about to expire. I also know that there are a lot of members that are uncertain about upgrading to "Pro". So logically, it makes sense to wait for a sale or simply a reduction in price.
$1999 is not competitive. It's simply isn't. That's a subscription fee. After a year, the elite access is gone. I'm not comfortable with that idea.
$500 a year Pro or $2K for life.
I want pro i want it real bad, i can afford it but it isn't priced right, sure they can charge what they want it's a brilliant package but it also restricts a lot of users who can't, won't buy because it's $2K a year.
Maybe make 10 games get them all nearly ready buy pro and release all in one go
Darren.
Clearly, the lesser quality apps or the apps where people are on the fence don't matter to them. They see it as GS advertising, while they still milk the 2K out of all the serious app makers.
Honestly, for 2K it should be a perpetual license to the product and not a subscription. If I spend 2K on Unity I basically get all I need to make iPhone games without Unity branding and access to all features.
If GS ran faster and performed better and had many more features, the 2k fee would be more palatable. As it is, they are asking too much for too little.
Did I just say that out loud?
I wish I could buy an Aston Martin for the price of a Toyota Prius... with the same fuel efficiency.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
That's the benefit of a forum. Gendai Games can gain better insight to the status of the community.
Did you notice how few people are arguing for Pro? That's an issue. Imagine if this was a discussion for Express. "I don't know guys, $99 is a lot of money." There would be two common responses... either the situation would be mocked or $99 would be explained as insignificant. A good developer can easily make $99 with GameSalad in a month. That leaves the other 11 months to enjoy.
So, the question becomes more about economics. How many people here have made more than $2000 with GameSalad in a year? I can think of a few people... Tshirtbooth, Utopian Games and Firemaplegames. They're the elite developers around here, yet, they're not huge advocates for Pro. Utopian Games is totally against it, Tshirtbooth is undecided and Firemaplegames suggests it if you have clients lined up. Yet, it's not even clear to me if Pro could be used to make games for others.
It's a big decision, almost like buying a car, so I think it's important to feel comfortable about it. Yet, this thread isn't filled with encouragement. "Good, you've taken your first step into a larger world." ...or something Obi Wan Kenobi might say. Instead, there are suggestions that buying Pro is like gambling. I also realized that I could get more for less with alternative software suites.
This community is very encouraging... except when it comes to buying a Pro subscription. That should send a very strong message to Gendai Games.
Far as I can see, it's a fact. You don't HAVE to buy the pro. Indeed, many current pro users probably won't stay pro once their subs have been used up. Others have seen the price and bought into it.
It's that simple, surely?
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
It's that simple, surely?
@scitunes, If Pro was supposed to be a joke, then why not make the only pro feature the removal of the GS logo? That doesn't quite explain their model...
Having said *that*, I have a feeling something's on the way about all this. If you look at the big picture post, it's interesting that all the features that people have been asking for - GameCentre, Online leaderboards, social network integration - will *not* be pro features.
Ask yourself 'why?'
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
@scitunes #2, I don't understand why you're frustrated at us for "missing the point" when you can't even find this mysterious yellow post. I'm not questioning you search ability. I'm just pointing out that Gendai isn't really trying to propagate that "point", if it is even truly their position.
Scitunes, you're basically hitting the core of this issue. Gendai Games wants to promote their software. I'm totally cool with that. Yet, what would I do if I had pro today? I'd probably be putting in banner ads that would say something like, "Learn how to make this game with The Unofficial GameSalad Textbook."
So, their approach is actually counter-productive. Because iAds and hyperlinks are restricted to Pro, I'm starting to drift. I'm wondering if Corona or Unity are acceptable alternatives. If I do manage to learn Unity, why would I return to GameSalad?
Also, if you look at Touch Arcade and iTunes reviews, many gamers do not act well to the GameSalad logo... probably because it takes so long to load.
Although, I'm not sure if that means Pro is going away. Gendai Games could still be saving the money-making features for Pro... like in-app purchases.
@ BarkBark - I don't appreciate being called a liar which is basically what you are doing with the double quote post. I have been a helpful member of this community for over a year and never has my integrity been called into question.
Here's one link I found. Granted it is subtle but you'll notice codemonkey's wording ("entirely") and the final
I read it as saying "you are totally correct except of course we'll take your money if you want to give it."
http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=3599#post-20846
I was only saying that if there is just ONE post about this EVER, it must not be a high priority for Gendai to educate the community of this fact. Your frustration is misplace, imho.
P.S. Your help in the community is not something I would question and I am extremely thankful to you and everyone else that helps this rag tag group of indies out!
...and it seems that design219 has Pro.
My opinion?
Dude, the objective fact is that it's a free market, and Gendai can charge what the hell they like.
People may look at the price and moan about it, especially if compared to the competition. But that doesn't change the fact that it's priced the way Gendai want to price it.
People may drift to other engines because of this. That's entirely their decision. But telling Gendai they're morally bankrupt pricing it the way they do is wrong.
Your opinion is that it should be cheaper. Fine. That's your opinion. It also happens to be my opinion. I agree with you!
But I'm not going to 'insult' Gendai and say they're morally wrong. That's a subjective point of view. And the objective fact is that they could charge $10000 and still be well within their rights.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
I never said anything to disagree with that!
"Price Gouging" can refer to a monopoly corporation that charges higher than they could in a competitive market.
GS is they ONLY player in the easy-to-use GUI iPhone game development market, otherwise know as a monopoly.
I don't think this qualifies.
Then why are people even comparing GS to Unity or Torque?
And doesn't Torque have plug-ins you can buy that essentially makes game creation GUI based (till you have to connect everything together using code)?
Truth is, there are *several* ways of getting an iPhone game to market. There's a lot of choice. People weigh up the pros and cons and pick the one that's suited to them!
That doesn't sound like a monopoly to me. Sorry.
BTW - got nothing against you personally, to be clear. This is an interesting discussion though, and I'd much rather be talking the facts with you than slinging abuse
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Price gouging happens in this market. If this is a "free market", then it can happen in a "free market"...