BarkBarkCo said: Just because I don't like being talked to like a child
Sigh, I wasn't going to feed this, but I have to ask you to look back at my post. First of all, I wasn't talking to you. And secondly, I just voiced MY opinion. I don't see anything insulting in what I said. If opposing opinions get under your skin, maybe you should back off the forum.
The point is, it's pointless to keep harping on Gendai's pricing. It's their call.
design219 said: The point is, it's pointless to keep harping on Gendai's pricing. It's their call.
That's not the main point of this thread. The question here is if I (or other developers in general) should upgrade. 48% so far think no. Yet, 34% think so. More people voted yes than I imagined. Even if those votes are from the YodaPollo, Codemonkey and "Gamesalad" accounts, that still leaves another seven votes in the affirmative. I'm a little bit surprised that so many votes are for upgrading.
Right now, I'm waiting for my new game to be approved. So, I can start work on another GameSalad project. Yet, what should that project be? My mind keeps going back to iAds and hyperlinks. I could create two quick apps with iAds or I could work on Annoyed Tomatoes... the latter involves a lot of work. And even if I create Annoyed Tomatoes, I'd still wonder about a "lite" version... where hyperlinks could increase sales.
...another issue about upgrading is that it seems to ignore the value remaining on my "Express" account. I have about six months left. Yet, I don't think I'm getting a $49.50 discount.
Photics said: That's not the main point of this thread. The question here is if I (or other developers in general) should upgrade. 48% so far think no. Yet, 34% think so. More people voted yes than I imagined. Even if those votes are from the YodaPollo, Codemonkey and "Gamesalad" accounts, that still leaves another seven votes in the affirmative. I'm a little bit surprised that so many votes are for upgrading.
I don't think you can actually look at your poll results to accurately judge the community. Based on the poll and first post, my thought process would be: "Sure upgrade. Its your account I don't give a !@#$%."
However, on the question as a whole, if I were to ask myself if I wanted to upgrade the answer would be a resounding no. My first year of iPhone development is coming to a close (I think I started working with GS in October, however), and I'd say I've been pretty successful on the app store so far (12k made to date). Excluding taxes, the pro subscription would cost me 1/6th of my total profit (1/5th if I only count money made from GS applications).
I think the price is just too high right now, and I think there's a pretty blatant issue if many existing pro users have no plans on renewing. Hell, utopian won't even upgrade and he has had the most successful GS game to date.
And a one time fee of $2,000 I'd be fine with, but an annual fee of two grand is completely unreasonable (for myself at least).
You guys should also understand that $1m isn't much money in this context. It's probably 6-9 months burn rate for them. You may should be concerned that they don't get additional funding and it all goes away at some point They may not be that deeply funded.
When I said gouging, I really meant milking. I'm 100% ok with the 2k for the Pro version, btw. To me, it's binary. You are making good enough games to warrant it, or you are not.
The larger concern is the quality of the engine and whether you can make top quality software with it. That's pretty iffy at the moment, and that has much higher priority than the pro version. For most games here the Pro version would be wasted and would take you from 100 sales to 125.
If I had something that I felt would sell enough to even break even with the 2k Pro license I'd do it, simply for a more professional presentation and the url. ads? Who the hell wants to clutter their game with ads? I can't see users responding well to ad supported games. I think the vast majority of games will be ad free and users will flock to those games. It's not likd ad revenue will take your 1000th selling game and make it profitable.
You guys realize I'm joking about that brute-force script, right?
When I've made enough money, I'd pay a one-time fee of $2000 for Pro, but not annual.
I'd pay an annual fee of $500 for Pro, also.
However, my argument is that it's still beta software. Granted, fully working - albeit limited - games can be made with the current engine, but because it's beta, they should really be focusing on building their userbase and keeping their current userbase happy with more reasonable Pro pricing. I stated before that Pro should be $499, Express should be at least $199-249 with Retina Display and Gyroscope support, and even introduce a $99 Starter version that will deploy for either the iPhone or iPad, but not both.
I'd really wish that Gendai Games could really address this in detail in a yellow sticky.
Threepwood said: You guys should also understand that $1m isn't much money in this context. It's probably 6-9 months burn rate for them. You may should be concerned that they don't get additional funding and it all goes away at some point They may not be that deeply funded.
When I said gouging, I really meant milking. I'm 100% ok with the 2k for the Pro version, btw. To me, it's binary. You are making good enough games to warrant it, or you are not.
The larger concern is the quality of the engine and whether you can make top quality software with it. That's pretty iffy at the moment, and that has much higher priority than the pro version. For most games here the Pro version would be wasted and would take you from 100 sales to 125.
If I had something that I felt would sell enough to even break even with the 2k Pro license I'd do it, simply for a more professional presentation and the url. ads? Who the hell wants to clutter their game with ads? I can't see users responding well to ad supported games. I think the vast majority of games will be ad free and users will flock to those games. It's not likd ad revenue will take your 1000th selling game and make it profitable.
I agree with most of what you say. Apart from the milking bit
As to how far a million will get you, that's a fair point. I don't think they're going to go away though. In the lead up to actual iPhone publishing, a very big worry I had was that it was all going to turn to dust and Gendai might not make it!
They did ok though, and now, a year on, have an additional million. Good times ahead, I'm sure!
I love GS but in my opinion its just too flakey for 2k per year Gendai support is equally flakey or at best a joke. They advertise direct support for pro but you get the same system as apple and a slower response.
Unity is 3k for pro but also very easy to use for what it does. I can say that having now submitted a Unity app for approval to the app store that is both a universal app and open feint enabled (the open feint part was tricky though i thought)
I only have basic unity though. But was BLOWN away by what you get for $500
Still tough to compare to GS though since GS is soooooo easy to use it's insane.
@QS you can't even compare GS to torque because having wasted 750 on it i can say its garbage. I would say 80% of the people that buy it can't even get a game running on a device.
They have some loyal fans but i would go out on a limb and say over half their biggest fanboys have never even got a game on a device to work yet. Total rubbish. BTW im dissing itorque not regular torque. Its seems to work pretty straight forward.
Its easy to get caught up in Torque's selling points and ease of use without actually getting a game on a idevice. Its sooooo buggy it's surprising its even released.
@James...thanks....I have been wanting to say iTorque was total bollocks for ages(you only have to look at the site to see what a disjointed mess it all is) but as some respected members seem to rate and recommend it I thought I had better not
I bought TGB four or five years ago. I used it for a month or two. Seemed fairly legit, but I never released anything. I have never used iTGB.
It just seemed like a better option for non-coders just starting out than Corona.
If your business does not require you to make "white label" apps, then I would not recommend buying the Pro license. There is such an enormous chance that you will not even come close to making your money back with iAds or URL forwarding.
Most people here who have the Pro license, bought the original Indie license for $500. I won it in a contest, and a few others here bought it outright.
In December, there was a 20% off Christmas sale, where the Express version became $79 and the Pro version became $1600
I still don't recommend it at that price, but at least that's a slightly lower risk.
firemaplegames said: I bought TGB four or five years ago. I used it for a month or two. Seemed fairly legit, but I never released anything. I have never used iTGB.
It just seemed like a better option for non-coders just starting out than Corona.
If your business does not require you to make "white label" apps, then I would not recommend buying the Pro license. There is such an enormous chance that you will not even come close to making your money back with iAds or URL forwarding.
Most people here who have the Pro license, bought the original Indie license for $500. I won it in a contest, and a few others here bought it outright.
In December, there was a 20% off Christmas sale, where the Express version became $79 and the Pro version became $1600
I still don't recommend it at that price, but at least that's a slightly lower risk.
Agreed, you will definitely not make your money back with iAds and URL forwarding.
Much better at this point to purchase Express, I for one am doing so when renewal comes up, unless PRO goes down in price! Fingers crossed....
And I really only want Pro for URL forwarding, I could do without iAds, but would still utilize it given Pro is cheaper than it is now... at least by 50%
Not that I would read anything into it, but I did offer Gendai my money for pro the other day and they didn't take it.
I simply emailed and asked if they could let me know that the pricing structure wasn't going to change soon and I would upgrade. A week on and no reply.
Not that it means much, probably just nobody bothering to reply. But....... you never know.
StusApps said: Not that I would read anything into it, but I did offer Gendai my money for pro the other day and they didn't take it.
I simply emailed and asked if they could let me know that the pricing structure wasn't going to change soon and I would upgrade. A week on and no reply.
Not that it means much, probably just nobody bothering to reply. But....... you never know.
StusApps said: Not that I would read anything into it, but I did offer Gendai my money for pro the other day and they didn't take it.
I simply emailed and asked if they could let me know that the pricing structure wasn't going to change soon and I would upgrade. A week on and no reply.
Not that it means much, probably just nobody bothering to reply. But....... you never know.
Put the money in a briefcase. Unmarked notes, single denominations.
Leave it by the gazebo in the park and walk away - you'll get your pro licence a couple of days later.
StusApps said: Not that I would read anything into it, but I did offer Gendai my money for pro the other day and they didn't take it.
I simply emailed and asked if they could let me know that the pricing structure wasn't going to change soon and I would upgrade. A week on and no reply.
Not that it means much, probably just nobody bothering to reply. But....... you never know.
Wow, that almost confirms that my decision to wait was a good one. If I had a paying customer, with $2000 at the ready, I'd probably respond. Although, it is possible that they're simply to busy to read and respond to email. If the latter is the actual scenario, that also suggests that waiting is a good idea. If they're too busy to respond it means that they're busy working on something... or something has horribly gone wrong... either way, I think I should wait.
It's tough. I was looking forward to working on new GameSalad projects today. But when I saw that $1999 on the screen, I just froze.
JamesZeppelin said: I love GS but in my opinion its just too flakey for 2k per year Gendai support is equally flakey or at best a joke. They advertise direct support for pro but you get the same system as apple and a slower response.
Unity is 3k for pro but also very easy to use for what it does. I can say that having now submitted a Unity app for approval to the app store that is both a universal app and open feint enabled (the open feint part was tricky though i thought)
I only have basic unity though. But was BLOWN away by what you get for $500
Still tough to compare to GS though since GS is soooooo easy to use it's insane.
@QS you can't even compare GS to torque because having wasted 750 on it i can say its garbage. I would say 80% of the people that buy it can't even get a game running on a device.
They have some loyal fans but i would go out on a limb and say over half their biggest fanboys have never even got a game on a device to work yet. Total rubbish. BTW im dissing itorque not regular torque. Its seems to work pretty straight forward.
Its easy to get caught up in Torque's selling points and ease of use without actually getting a game on a idevice. Its sooooo buggy it's surprising its even released.
So OK, during the last week I've been carefully pondering the three main issues I have with GameSalad...
1) The cost of pro 2) Communication issues with Gendai Games 3) Lack of impressive updates
I mentioned that I would be leaving if I did not see improvement in those three areas. Posts by Yodapollo and Codemonkey addressed issues #2 and #3.
Does Gendai Games chat a lot? No, but those little breadcrumb posts are enough to figure out the future. Game Center support is coming, as is improvements to GameSalad overall, so this is something to seriously consider. I've looked at competitive software. I think GameSalad is the best in the market. Unity is close, but I'm just making 2D games. I like the people at Gendai Games and on this forum. Plus, GameSalad is simply fast. It's a quick and easy way to make games.
(There's also another reason why I like GameSalad, but I'm not posting that reason in this post.)
So, the last major issue is "Pro". Is $1999 a year too expensive? Probably, but I realize not having iAds and hyperlinks is a major stumbling block for my game development. I've seen a lot of posts stating that iAds is not worth it. Yet, my experience shows otherwise. On the Android Market, my advertisement based games outperformed the paid apps. It's a "race to the bottom". The only way to go cheaper than 99¢ is to make the games free.
The simple reality is that this is more than just making profit. It's about building a dream job. During the last week, I found nothing better to do. After making my own games with GameSalad, my other projects seem stale.
So, it's becoming less about "if" I will go Pro... it's more of a question, "When" I will go Pro.
That nagging feeling that Gendai Games will simply drop the price of Pro is a big concern of mine. Yet, I realize that the perfect storm of success is approaching. If this plan is going to work, I'll have to make a move soon.
Of course you can do whatever you want to, but I still don't advise paying that much for Pro for the reasons you mention - iAds and URL linking.
The main reason for Pro - and the reason Gendai created it - is the ability to replace their splash screen .png with yours. Large companies demand this and think nothing of paying this amount. It's built into their budgets.
$2000/year is not a lot of money to spend on a toll that lets you create .apps so fast. Training an employee to use GameSalad is much easier, faster, and cheaper than training someone to use Xcode.
It also allows smaller companies to be more nimble and not have to hire expensive developers. $2000 + a fairly competent employee vs. $100,000K+ for an Xcode programmer is a no brainer.
I know the subscription model bothers you as well, but in this field it doesn't really matter. I understand that it is a lot of money, but iPhone App development moves at such a fast pace. I haven't even been doing it a year and they have already come out with several new iDevices, a new iOS, etc. etc.
You mentioned that you like to 'own' your software. I own Flash 4 as well - but that only works on OS 9.
I have easily spent over $20K on Adobe products over the last 20 years. I have to update their products every year regardless. I have clients sending me Photoshop CS5 and Flash CS5 files. I need to be able to edit them and send CS5 files back to them.
So although I 'own' Photoshop CS4, it doesn't matter since it is now considered old and cannot open the newer files. Actually, Photoshop CS3 and Flash CS3 are my personal favorites and the ones I use all the time, even though I have all the latest versions.
Anyway, you will not find a bigger supporter of Gendai Games and GameSalad than me. I do not share any of the negativity towards either the company or the tool as many of the people on these forums have - and I still do not recommend you paying that much for Pro.
dhondon said: I think Gendai got the price right the first time: 500$. Would have bought it instantly.
Since it needs to be renewed every year, I'm thinking $500 is a more competitive price for Pro... but even if 100 people subscribed, that's not even enough to pay for one developer.
firemaplegames said: Of course you can do whatever you want to, but I still don't advise paying that much for Pro for the reasons you mention - iAds and URL linking.
Well, I'm going back to the $5.50 number. That's how much I'd have to make a day in advertising to cover the costs of Pro. That's pretty low. It's unfortunate that I can't just test it though, to launch one app as a really good test.
You mentioned that you like to 'own' your software. I own Flash 4 as well - but that only works on OS 9.
I have mine for Windows. It would still work. Supporting two platforms is an issue for me. While I like GameSalad, I still wonder about selling the Mac. I don't like running two computers. It feels like a waste of electricity.
I don't think Adobe upgrade are very good. I've skipped a lot of them. I spent about $1900 on their software in the last 10 years... that's including Macromedia.
Flash 4 --> Studio 8 --> CS4 (Plus, Flash Paper and Acrobat 5)
So basically, wow, that's something to seriously consider. 10 years of Adobe software is roughly the same or less than one year of GameSalad software.
BAH... that makes me uncertain again.
There's no way that GameSalad is equal to Flash, Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, Acrobat, Dreamweaver and Fireworks.
Anyway, you will not find a bigger supporter of Gendai Games and GameSalad than me. I do not share any of the negativity towards either the company or the tool as many of the people on these forums have - and I still do not recommend you paying that much for Pro.
Well, there's only two scenarios that I see... go Pro or give up. It's the "Race to the bottom" issue. Having Pro gives a competitive edge. The games are only going to get better. More developers will be digging for iTunes gold. That's going to make it harder and harder to stand out. The high price of Pro could be considered a good thing.
@dhondon: $500 was the original cost for the express version. Pro was always $2000
Photics said: Well, I'm going back to the $5.50 number. That's how much I'd have to make a day in advertising to cover the costs of Pro. That's pretty low. It's unfortunate that I can't just test it though, to launch one app as a really good test.
My apps generally make about 60 cents a day. They have never come close to $5.50 a day. Perhaps that number will increase as the years go by. I doubt it.
Your luck may vary.
If you have a spare 2K sitting around and want to spend it on GameSalad, I would buy an iPad and make GameSalad games for that device. A much easier way to make $5.50 a day. And then you would be in the black, instead of just breaking even.
firemaplegames said: My apps generally make about 60 cents a day. They have never come close to $5.50 a day. Perhaps that number will increase as the years go by. I doubt it.
I think you mentioned that these were existing apps, not brand new apps. Most apps tend to have an initial surge and then they drop off. If iAds are added later, they probably won't be as effective. With Photics: Revisions "Lite", I added iAds later. That's clearly not as effective, as replaying a game or rereading a book is usually not as fun as the first time.
firemaplegames said: If you have a spare 2K sitting around and want to spend it on GameSalad, I would buy an iPad and make GameSalad games for that device. A much easier way to make $5.50 a day. And then you would be in the black, instead of just breaking even.
I already make iPad games. They outperform my iPhone / iPod Touch games. That's why I think Pro is important. How do I reach the 8-16 year olds without credit cards? I think Steve Jobs said the iPod Touch is bigger than Nintendo and Sony's portables combined. So, all of those tap-happy kids out there are going to ignore my games. They're not likely to pay 99¢ or $1.99 on an unknown game. They probably just buy Angry Birds because that's what their friends are playing. But if my games are free, the barrier is broken.
I'm not going to mention exact figures, but I was using AdMob with my WebView apps. It was pretty good. I was also doing the Guild Wars fansite thing. I wasn't allowed to charge money for the apps, but I could run advertisements.
My book projects were more successful on Android, but still respectable on the iTunes App Store.
firemaplegames said: Or somehow spend the 2K on promoting your book.
That's a good idea, but I think there's market saturation. Just about everyone who's going to buy the book already has it. I tried to generate some external excitement in the book, but it just fizzled. A marketing budget of $2000 is tiny. The best I could do with that is an AdWords campaign. Yet, I've had lousy experience with that before.
$2,000 would generate about 20,000 clicks. Of that number, maybe 100-200 would actually buy the book. So, even if all goes according to plan, I could still lose some money. I could try a small campaign to test the waters, but it's no where near on the level of what Pro could do.
If Pro works, and I do as well as you, tshirtbooth or Utopian Games, that's tens-of-thousands of dollars. Now, Utopian Games didn't have Pro, but it seems that the game would have done better if it did. Hyperlinks from the "Lite" version to the full version is a big help.
I'll have to make a decision this week. There are three scenarios...
1) Give up - Sell the Mac and find something else to work on. 2) Status Quo - Stick with express and renew my developer license for another year. 3) Go Pro - release games with hyperlinks, custom loading screens and iAds, and start accepting freelance jobs for game development.
Photics said: Now, Utopian Games didn't have Pro, but it seems that the game would have done better if it did. Hyperlinks from the "Lite" version to the full version is a big help.
I am reading an excellent book on iphone/ipad marketing at the moment. The research within shows that, on average, conversion rates from lite version to paid version are around 1%.
It's certainly nice to have the pro features, and they may help if you're trying to build a 'brand' and make it easy for people to get to your full version. But if Bumps proved anything, it's that you need a good looking game that's sellable more than having a pro version of GameSalad.
Cheers,
QS
Edit: Oh, and let's say that on the conservative side, Bumps sold 20,000 units. With the 1% conversion rate from lite to paid app, that will come to 200 possible 'extra' units.
200 extra units at $99 does not add up to 2k
Of course their lite version may have done much better. But they'd need 200,000 downloads of the lite version to break even with the cost of pro as it is right now.
quantumsheep said: I am reading an excellent book on iphone/ipad marketing at the moment. The research within shows that, on average, conversion rates from lite version to paid version are around 1%.
That seems about right. Yet, from what I've read on these forums, having a hyperlink is more effective. It builds an easier path. Right now, it's me versus the world. You could spend $1.99 on one of my games, or you could simply wait until Namco has a sale... and buy PacMan one more time.
It's not good business sense to expect customers to do something you wouldn't. (If an app isn't free, I don't download it.)
I don't make "lite" versions because I don't expect them to be as effective without hyperlinks. I'm saving my bullets. Right now I could launch Arcade Action as a "lite" version, but I think it would be better to launch it with Game Center support. In-App purchases would be even better. If Pro had in-app purchases right now, I might not be hesitating to buy Pro.
quantumsheep said: It's certainly nice to have the pro features, and they may help if you're trying to build a 'brand' and make it easy for people to get to your full version. But if Bumps proved anything, it's that you need a good looking game that's sellable more than having a pro version of GameSalad.
I think with a free game, the threshold is lower. Expectations aren't so high and random downloads are more likely.
Photics said: That seems about right. Yet, from what I've read on these forums, having a hyperlink is more effective. It builds an easier path. Right now, it's me versus the world. You could spend $1.99 on one of my games, or you could simply wait until Namco has a sale... and buy PacMan one more time.
It's not good business sense to expect customers to do something you wouldn't. (If an app isn't free, I don't download it.)
I don't make "lite" versions because I don't expect them to be as effective without hyperlinks. I'm saving my bullets. Right now I could launch Arcade Action as a "lite" version, but I think it would be better to launch it with Game Center support. In-App purchases would be even better. If Pro had in-app purchases right now, I might not be hesitating to buy Pro.
Why would you not release the lite version now, and then add an update once you do have Pro? Or simply pull it from sale and re-release the lite when you have Pro...
You seem to be "saving bullets" when they were never in short supply to begin with.
Photics said: It's not good business sense to expect customers to do something you wouldn't. (If an app isn't free, I don't download it.)
I'm completely the opposite.
I'm much more likely to spend money on apps than to get free ones.
Free ones are great, of course, but I wouldn't download something that had *always* been free. In a sale or as a promotion, sure, but 'free' screams iAds, in App purchases or just generally 'not good enough to pay for'.
Some people obviously don't mind iAds, or in App purchases. That's cool.
I've seen you mention that you don't buy apps - can I ask why?
Eastbound said: You seem to be "saving bullets" when they were never in short supply to begin with.
Once I release the light version of Arcade Action, that's it. That's my last chance to salvage my favorite GameSalad project. There's the initial spike. If the game doesn't get featured, it's spirals into a sea of forgotten apps. Even if it is featured, the downward spiral is still inevitable... but at least I'll have good memories. HA!
I have released "lite" versions before. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. That's not exactly what this is about. It's more about making the lite version the main version...
The master plan... 1) Release the app for free 2) Put in iAds 3) In-app purchase to remove ads 4) In-app purchases for additional content 5) House ads and links to the photics library
This seems like a more intelligent way to release an app. A single user could click an advertisement, purchase the removal of advertisements and purchase upgrades. Instead of $1.40... it could be more like $2.60... but it's gradual. There's more life in the game. It's open to a larger market. With Game Center, it's not enough to simply hope the visitors like your screenshots and icons. A community of gamers is needed. How do you build that without free versions of your game? If you're giving away the game for free, how else do you make money without iAds and in-app purchases?
Plus, I hate promo codes. I'm crippling my chances of success by not dumping the 50 codes at launch. So, with a "lite" version, I don't have to check who's a US resident. I simply make a post on various gaming websites and enjoy the initial surge of traffic.
quantumsheep said: I've seen you mention that you don't buy apps - can I ask why?
1) Previous digital download markets have disappointed me. I didn't like having to repurchase content simply because I bought new Sidekick. I don't like the idea that a lot of the content is stuff I already purchased before. I don't want to buy Pac-Man again. I especially realized this with Nintendo. I bought Sonic The Hedgehog for the Wii. I didn't realize how awful the game was. Plus, I had already purchased a bunch of Sega classics for the PC and GameBoy Advance. How many times does Sega expect me to buy Phantasy Star II?
2) Mobile apps are basically like Flash games... and I can play those for free.
Comments
The point is, it's pointless to keep harping on Gendai's pricing. It's their call.
Right now, I'm waiting for my new game to be approved. So, I can start work on another GameSalad project. Yet, what should that project be? My mind keeps going back to iAds and hyperlinks. I could create two quick apps with iAds or I could work on Annoyed Tomatoes... the latter involves a lot of work. And even if I create Annoyed Tomatoes, I'd still wonder about a "lite" version... where hyperlinks could increase sales.
...another issue about upgrading is that it seems to ignore the value remaining on my "Express" account. I have about six months left. Yet, I don't think I'm getting a $49.50 discount.
Edit: If you want to get technical about who said what...I didn't use the term "Price Gouging"...
However, on the question as a whole, if I were to ask myself if I wanted to upgrade the answer would be a resounding no. My first year of iPhone development is coming to a close (I think I started working with GS in October, however), and I'd say I've been pretty successful on the app store so far (12k made to date). Excluding taxes, the pro subscription would cost me 1/6th of my total profit (1/5th if I only count money made from GS applications).
I think the price is just too high right now, and I think there's a pretty blatant issue if many existing pro users have no plans on renewing. Hell, utopian won't even upgrade and he has had the most successful GS game to date.
And a one time fee of $2,000 I'd be fine with, but an annual fee of two grand is completely unreasonable (for myself at least).
When I said gouging, I really meant milking. I'm 100% ok with the 2k for the Pro version, btw. To me, it's binary. You are making good enough games to warrant it, or you are not.
The larger concern is the quality of the engine and whether you can make top quality software with it. That's pretty iffy at the moment, and that has much higher priority than the pro version. For most games here the Pro version would be wasted and would take you from 100 sales to 125.
If I had something that I felt would sell enough to even break even with the 2k Pro license I'd do it, simply for a more professional presentation and the url. ads? Who the hell wants to clutter their game with ads? I can't see users responding well to ad supported games. I think the vast majority of games will be ad free and users will flock to those games. It's not likd ad revenue will take your 1000th selling game and make it profitable.
When I've made enough money, I'd pay a one-time fee of $2000 for Pro, but not annual.
I'd pay an annual fee of $500 for Pro, also.
However, my argument is that it's still beta software. Granted, fully working - albeit limited - games can be made with the current engine, but because it's beta, they should really be focusing on building their userbase and keeping their current userbase happy with more reasonable Pro pricing. I stated before that Pro should be $499, Express should be at least $199-249 with Retina Display and Gyroscope support, and even introduce a $99 Starter version that will deploy for either the iPhone or iPad, but not both.
I'd really wish that Gendai Games could really address this in detail in a yellow sticky.
As to how far a million will get you, that's a fair point. I don't think they're going to go away though. In the lead up to actual iPhone publishing, a very big worry I had was that it was all going to turn to dust and Gendai might not make it!
They did ok though, and now, a year on, have an additional million. Good times ahead, I'm sure!
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Gendai support is equally flakey or at best a joke. They advertise direct support for pro but you get the same system as apple and a slower response.
Unity is 3k for pro but also very easy to use for what it does. I can say that having now submitted a Unity app for approval to the app store that is both a universal app and open feint enabled (the open feint part was tricky though i thought)
I only have basic unity though. But was BLOWN away by what you get for $500
Still tough to compare to GS though since GS is soooooo easy to use it's insane.
@QS you can't even compare GS to torque because having wasted 750 on it i can say its garbage. I would say 80% of the people that buy it can't even get a game running on a device.
They have some loyal fans but i would go out on a limb and say over half their biggest fanboys have never even got a game on a device to work yet. Total rubbish.
BTW im dissing itorque not regular torque. Its seems to work pretty straight forward.
Its easy to get caught up in Torque's selling points and ease of use without actually getting a game on a idevice. Its sooooo buggy it's surprising its even released.
It just seemed like a better option for non-coders just starting out than Corona.
If your business does not require you to make "white label" apps, then I would not recommend buying the Pro license. There is such an enormous chance that you will not even come close to making your money back with iAds or URL forwarding.
Most people here who have the Pro license, bought the original Indie license for $500.
I won it in a contest, and a few others here bought it outright.
In December, there was a 20% off Christmas sale, where the Express version became $79 and the Pro version became $1600
I still don't recommend it at that price, but at least that's a slightly lower risk.
Much better at this point to purchase Express, I for one am doing so when renewal comes up, unless PRO goes down in price! Fingers crossed....
And I really only want Pro for URL forwarding, I could do without iAds, but would still utilize it given Pro is cheaper than it is now... at least by 50%
I simply emailed and asked if they could let me know that the pricing structure wasn't going to change soon and I would upgrade. A week on and no reply.
Not that it means much, probably just nobody bothering to reply. But....... you never know.
Leave it by the gazebo in the park and walk away - you'll get your pro licence a couple of days later.
And no cops, or the apps get it between the eyes.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
It's tough. I was looking forward to working on new GameSalad projects today. But when I saw that $1999 on the screen, I just froze.
1) The cost of pro
2) Communication issues with Gendai Games
3) Lack of impressive updates
I mentioned that I would be leaving if I did not see improvement in those three areas. Posts by Yodapollo and Codemonkey addressed issues #2 and #3.
Does Gendai Games chat a lot? No, but those little breadcrumb posts are enough to figure out the future. Game Center support is coming, as is improvements to GameSalad overall, so this is something to seriously consider. I've looked at competitive software. I think GameSalad is the best in the market. Unity is close, but I'm just making 2D games. I like the people at Gendai Games and on this forum. Plus, GameSalad is simply fast. It's a quick and easy way to make games.
(There's also another reason why I like GameSalad, but I'm not posting that reason in this post.)
So, the last major issue is "Pro". Is $1999 a year too expensive? Probably, but I realize not having iAds and hyperlinks is a major stumbling block for my game development. I've seen a lot of posts stating that iAds is not worth it. Yet, my experience shows otherwise. On the Android Market, my advertisement based games outperformed the paid apps. It's a "race to the bottom". The only way to go cheaper than 99¢ is to make the games free.
The simple reality is that this is more than just making profit. It's about building a dream job. During the last week, I found nothing better to do. After making my own games with GameSalad, my other projects seem stale.
So, it's becoming less about "if" I will go Pro... it's more of a question, "When" I will go Pro.
That nagging feeling that Gendai Games will simply drop the price of Pro is a big concern of mine. Yet, I realize that the perfect storm of success is approaching. If this plan is going to work, I'll have to make a move soon.
The main reason for Pro - and the reason Gendai created it - is the ability to replace their splash screen .png with yours. Large companies demand this and think nothing of paying this amount. It's built into their budgets.
$2000/year is not a lot of money to spend on a toll that lets you create .apps so fast. Training an employee to use GameSalad is much easier, faster, and cheaper than training someone to use Xcode.
It also allows smaller companies to be more nimble and not have to hire expensive developers.
$2000 + a fairly competent employee vs. $100,000K+ for an Xcode programmer is a no brainer.
I know the subscription model bothers you as well, but in this field it doesn't really matter. I understand that it is a lot of money, but iPhone App development moves at such a fast pace. I haven't even been doing it a year and they have already come out with several new iDevices, a new iOS, etc. etc.
You mentioned that you like to 'own' your software. I own Flash 4 as well - but that only works on OS 9.
I have easily spent over $20K on Adobe products over the last 20 years. I have to update their products every year regardless. I have clients sending me Photoshop CS5 and Flash CS5 files. I need to be able to edit them and send CS5 files back to them.
So although I 'own' Photoshop CS4, it doesn't matter since it is now considered old and cannot open the newer files. Actually, Photoshop CS3 and Flash CS3 are my personal favorites and the ones I use all the time, even though I have all the latest versions.
Anyway, you will not find a bigger supporter of Gendai Games and GameSalad than me. I do not share any of the negativity towards either the company or the tool as many of the people on these forums have - and I still do not recommend you paying that much for Pro.
I don't think Adobe upgrade are very good. I've skipped a lot of them. I spent about $1900 on their software in the last 10 years... that's including Macromedia.
Flash 4 --> Studio 8 --> CS4
(Plus, Flash Paper and Acrobat 5)
So basically, wow, that's something to seriously consider. 10 years of Adobe software is roughly the same or less than one year of GameSalad software.
BAH... that makes me uncertain again.
There's no way that GameSalad is equal to Flash, Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, Acrobat, Dreamweaver and Fireworks. Well, there's only two scenarios that I see... go Pro or give up. It's the "Race to the bottom" issue. Having Pro gives a competitive edge. The games are only going to get better. More developers will be digging for iTunes gold. That's going to make it harder and harder to stand out. The high price of Pro could be considered a good thing.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Your luck may vary.
If you have a spare 2K sitting around and want to spend it on GameSalad, I would buy an iPad and make GameSalad games for that device. A much easier way to make $5.50 a day. And then you would be in the black, instead of just breaking even.
Or somehow spend the 2K on promoting your book.
Both are better investments in my opinion.
I'm not going to mention exact figures, but I was using AdMob with my WebView apps. It was pretty good. I was also doing the Guild Wars fansite thing. I wasn't allowed to charge money for the apps, but I could run advertisements.
http://www.appannie.com/guild-wars-high-ground/ranking/#view=best-ranks
My book projects were more successful on Android, but still respectable on the iTunes App Store. That's a good idea, but I think there's market saturation. Just about everyone who's going to buy the book already has it. I tried to generate some external excitement in the book, but it just fizzled. A marketing budget of $2000 is tiny. The best I could do with that is an AdWords campaign. Yet, I've had lousy experience with that before.
$2,000 would generate about 20,000 clicks. Of that number, maybe 100-200 would actually buy the book. So, even if all goes according to plan, I could still lose some money. I could try a small campaign to test the waters, but it's no where near on the level of what Pro could do.
If Pro works, and I do as well as you, tshirtbooth or Utopian Games, that's tens-of-thousands of dollars. Now, Utopian Games didn't have Pro, but it seems that the game would have done better if it did. Hyperlinks from the "Lite" version to the full version is a big help.
I'll have to make a decision this week. There are three scenarios...
1) Give up - Sell the Mac and find something else to work on.
2) Status Quo - Stick with express and renew my developer license for another year.
3) Go Pro - release games with hyperlinks, custom loading screens and iAds, and start accepting freelance jobs for game development.
It's certainly nice to have the pro features, and they may help if you're trying to build a 'brand' and make it easy for people to get to your full version. But if Bumps proved anything, it's that you need a good looking game that's sellable more than having a pro version of GameSalad.
Cheers,
QS
Edit: Oh, and let's say that on the conservative side, Bumps sold 20,000 units. With the 1% conversion rate from lite to paid app, that will come to 200 possible 'extra' units.
200 extra units at $99 does not add up to 2k
Of course their lite version may have done much better. But they'd need 200,000 downloads of the lite version to break even with the cost of pro as it is right now.
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
It's not good business sense to expect customers to do something you wouldn't. (If an app isn't free, I don't download it.)
I don't make "lite" versions because I don't expect them to be as effective without hyperlinks. I'm saving my bullets. Right now I could launch Arcade Action as a "lite" version, but I think it would be better to launch it with Game Center support. In-App purchases would be even better. If Pro had in-app purchases right now, I might not be hesitating to buy Pro. I think with a free game, the threshold is lower. Expectations aren't so high and random downloads are more likely.
You seem to be "saving bullets" when they were never in short supply to begin with.
I'm much more likely to spend money on apps than to get free ones.
Free ones are great, of course, but I wouldn't download something that had *always* been free. In a sale or as a promotion, sure, but 'free' screams iAds, in App purchases or just generally 'not good enough to pay for'.
Some people obviously don't mind iAds, or in App purchases. That's cool.
I've seen you mention that you don't buy apps - can I ask why?
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
I have released "lite" versions before. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. That's not exactly what this is about. It's more about making the lite version the main version...
The master plan...
1) Release the app for free
2) Put in iAds
3) In-app purchase to remove ads
4) In-app purchases for additional content
5) House ads and links to the photics library
This seems like a more intelligent way to release an app. A single user could click an advertisement, purchase the removal of advertisements and purchase upgrades. Instead of $1.40... it could be more like $2.60... but it's gradual. There's more life in the game. It's open to a larger market. With Game Center, it's not enough to simply hope the visitors like your screenshots and icons. A community of gamers is needed. How do you build that without free versions of your game? If you're giving away the game for free, how else do you make money without iAds and in-app purchases?
Plus, I hate promo codes. I'm crippling my chances of success by not dumping the 50 codes at launch. So, with a "lite" version, I don't have to check who's a US resident. I simply make a post on various gaming websites and enjoy the initial surge of traffic. 1) Previous digital download markets have disappointed me. I didn't like having to repurchase content simply because I bought new Sidekick. I don't like the idea that a lot of the content is stuff I already purchased before. I don't want to buy Pac-Man again. I especially realized this with Nintendo. I bought Sonic The Hedgehog for the Wii. I didn't realize how awful the game was. Plus, I had already purchased a bunch of Sega classics for the PC and GameBoy Advance. How many times does Sega expect me to buy Phantasy Star II?
2) Mobile apps are basically like Flash games... and I can play those for free.
3) There's so much free stuff already available.