beefy_clyro said: These are my suggestions to make it better;
1. Tutorial. 2. Save at any given time. 3. Put health around. Having to go back to base after getting 'lost'/exploring, whatever you wish to call it, is just crazy! 4. Story/Dialogue. The hardcore gamers can roam until their hearts are content, the most basic of user should have main missions to complete.
I don't know about saving at any given time. The other three are changes that I'm thinking about.
uptimistik said: Infinity Blade has perfected movement on the iPhone. How? By putting a walking character in a point-and-click interface. You just point, the character does the rest.
Bot's walking style is cumbersome, slow and tedious. Let me play some more and if you promise to be nice , I will give you a genuine breakdown AND ways to improve.
You can point-and-click in BOT... unless he hits a wall... then he stops.
A* movement would be nice, but I don't think that's easily accomplished with the current version of GameSalad.
tshirtbooth said: In zelda, you get told what to do next. You are told what to look for ad given clues to find these things.
There are clues in BOT... but you have to explore. There are 35 areas. Did you see them all?
And stop with the nonsense... where were the clues for the Silver Arrow? You had to bomb every flat surface, push every rock, burn every tree to find the secrets in that game.
What if im doing really well wondering around as you are advocating and then im sooo far away i die on teh way back?
What if i get lost on the way back after exploring?
What if i get a phone call whilst playing the game? GS games dont automatically resume, they freeze, i would have to exit and do it all again!
I think big games need regular saves!
Just make it back at the base is free to save, it will cost you 50 gold coins or something to save at any given time! Then there is that risk to reward factor i know you like.
Good to see you thinkiong about the other changes though
Downloaded, played...and I have to say, i pretty much agree with everything thats been said. Good graphics (although a bit repetitive), good audio but very tedious and frustrating gameplay.
For me, the controls are just wrong. I end up with my finger over the centre of the gameplay area far too much, and the combat just doesnt feel like it makes any sense... I get no kind of feedback on if my hits are connecting etc... and quite often the fight is over, and Im back at the base, with all my earned cash gone before ive even figured out if Ive even hit the enemy.
I know your going for simple...but it needs to be intuitive. The combat needs to have a "connection" so that the player can understand what theyre doing.
Exploration is tedious... most RPGs or MMOs have some sort of automap, or if not, have variety and landmarks in the scenery to help make it interesting. I didnt get any of that in the areas I explored... or at least i didnt feel it.
So thats the 2 main pillars that BOT seems to be built upon... combat and exploration, and sadly in their current form, they dont work.
I know your hurting right now Photics... but things can be changed. You just really need to step back... change your attitude, and listen to what everyone is saying. Your thoughts and opinions on gameplay are obviously off kilter with what most other people think... instead of arguing against it, accept it, and try and use all the feedback to help turn the game around.
Tshirt has echoed advice that was given to you halfway through this thread... regarding pre-release testing, and getting other peoples opinions.
You ignored it back then...dont ignore it again now.
Im coming at this as an RPG and MMO fan, so I understand what you were trying to achieve, but its just not working.
beefy_clyro said: What if i get a phone call whilst playing the game? GS games dont automatically resume, they freeze, i would have to exit and do it all again!
That is an issue.
Yet, the reverse is a problem too. So basically... no matter what you do... no matter how many stupid risks you take... you'll always get to keep your gold and upgrades? That doesn't seem right either.
beefy_clyro said: Good to see you thinkiong about the other changes though
Just because I'm debating doesn't mean I don't agree
tshirtbooth said: HAHA yes but you knew you were looking for it!
It's the same with the upgrades with BOT.
If your feedback is wrong, then I'm going to say so. There's a screenshot on the app listing with all the items. If people don't look, then there are empty spaces on the equipment menu.
Photics said: This is interesting feedback. One of the reasons I built BOT was because I felt the iTunes App Store is cluttered with too many casual and simplistic games. Some of the complaints are main features of the game...
It's too big? Wow, there are MMORPGs that might kill for such a comment.
Here's some game advice... Don't tap to shoot. It's not a tapping game. Hold the touch to shoot and aim.
You wrote this about Tigerfish in your review: "The motivation of the Tigerfish isn’t explained either. What is the purpose of the quest? It’s basically eat, shoot and don’t get eaten. If you’re looking for a spiritually uplifting parable, that’s not really what this game is about." Do you read the game description before play Tigerfish and write this? BOT just have a lot of cromless. I made the same mistake by making a world so large for Tigerfish. I love your review! :-)
Riffel, your game was fun to swim around. The parallax scrolling was cool. I could see the issues, but I still played the game. I had fun.
So, this bring up interesting design discussions. Your game was big... huge... and yeah, I had no desire to complete all of the maps.
Why do people feel compelled to play Angry Birds... even after 200+ levels of basically the same thing... but most people here didn't even play long enough to submit a score?
Another thing that surprised me is that there wasn't a lot of feedback about Tigerfish when it was free. Even just to checkout the cool parallax scrolling, I thought there would be more interest here.
Ok just managed another 10 minutes ... Found me a 100 gold coins, nice. Upgraded my gun, went in and changed to that gun, put gamecenter on and saved. How do i see any leaderboards? Is that only for survivor mode?
I like the movement of TANK however fighting is flawed. I cant seem to get him to shoot when i want him too, press behind and hold right? Doesnt work too well, i just get him turning around loads and occassionally chucking his sword out when im not lined up! D'oh. I think movement should be by touch but then have 2 buttons, 1 to shoot and 1 to use the sword. If you dont want buttons, do hotspots, look how QS done his buttons for Air Supply, you see them at the start and they fade out! It just doesnt work well enough in battle and i die ... constantly!
Do all enemies drop gold? Seems a bit random at the mo, that maybe design choice though.
Photics said: Another thing that surprised me is that there wasn't a lot of feedback about Tigerfish when it was free. Even just to checkout the cool parallax scrolling, I thought there would be more interest here.
+1 surprised here :-) but the leaderboard are populated!
beefy_clyro said: Ok just managed another 10 minutes ... Found me a 100 gold coins, nice. Upgraded my gun, went in and changed to that gun, put gamecenter on and saved. How do i see any leaderboards? Is that only for survivor mode?
Strange, I don't see you on the list. I only see one person. Maybe my phone isn't updating.
beefy_clyro said: I like the movement of TANK however fighting is flawed. I cant seem to get him to shoot when i want him too, press behind and hold right? Doesnt work too well, i just get him turning around loads and occassionally chucking his sword out when im not lined up!
TANK uses his sword when he's touched. So, that's how you can do combos without lifting up your finger. Just slide from gun to sword.
Do all enemies drop gold? Seems a bit random at the mo, that maybe design choice though.
Yes, the amount of gold dropped is random, but that depends on the enemy.
I plan on picking this up tonight, but before that, and without playing, there is some weird stuff going on here I would like to comment on.
I don't think that "hardcore/console" audience would work as an argument for the complaints people are having... does anyone think this game would be a success on XBOX Live Arcade, and it's just the iOS casual audience that's the issue? If so, explain other successful non-casual games on iOS.
In comparison to the original Zelda, you get an upgrade immediately, so there is some instant gratification, and you will find a dungeon pretty soon, it's close, and it was well designed to lead you there first, even though you could deviate... and you know what your motivation is, you're finding upgrades, so you can get stronger / get to new places, to eventually finish the game. I'm not sure, personally, if survival competition is a god enough motivator to make me want to find upgrades. Now, I have no idea about the quests until I play, but it SOUNDS like there should be one a little closer to base. Also, in Zelda, you don't have to go anywhere to save... you get Rupees, you get upgrades, you get keys, you die, you keep 'em.
Riffel said: I think it is about curiosity and reward (means a lot of work), maybe in Tigerfish 2 ?
I think it was the world map design. I got confused by the double arrows... Yellow door vs. Red Door. When I realized the amount of possibilities, I was like, "I don't have that much time."
So, perhaps that's what's going on here... too many places to go that the player feels overwhelmed.
Metronome picks up on some good things there... and hes just going by what other people are saying.
Most RPGs or MMOs have an initial "newbie" area with low level, easy to kill enemies to practice on, and little or no downside if you get killed by one, as you respawn close by. These newbie areas also have easy to find quests, that are also easy to understand, and usually help train the player how to use their interface, controls, inventory and weapons.
All this is in a closed in, safe environment...which the player can explore, and learn, before being guided out into the larger gameworld.
I think BOT would benefit from a similar environment... and i was a little confused, as Im sure Ive seen newbie areas in BOT discussed, or mentioned by Photics at some point.
But yup...going back to Zelda... like Metronome mentioned... everything is either intuitive, obvious, or is designed and built in a way that guides the player.
I think BOT needs some sort of intro too. Be that just options screens, or a story intro. I think the way it jumps straight into the game from the loading screen is too jarring, and adds to initially confusing players.
I think your arguing that BOT is an old style RPG...but your missing a lot of the tried and tested gaming conventions that those kind of games employed in order to make them fun.
Metronome49 said: I don't think that "hardcore/console" audience would work as an argument for the complaints people are having... does anyone think this game would be a success on XBOX Live Arcade, and it's just the iOS casual audience that's the issue? If so, explain other successful non-casual games on iOS.
That question could apply to any game here though. What GameSalad game would work on XBOX Live Arcade?
Metronome49 said: In comparison to the original Zelda, you get an upgrade immediately, so there is some instant gratification, and you will find a dungeon pretty soon, it's close, and it was well designed to lead you there first, even though you could deviate... and you know what your motivation is, you're finding upgrades, so you can get stronger / get to new places, to eventually finish the game.
The initial upgrade in Zelda isn't real though. You don't even start with a sword. The equivalent in BOT would be to take away the machine gun and then give it right back to you.
As for the close proximity of the dungeons in Zelda, as compared to BOT, the first boss is not that far away. It can't be killed with the machine gun though.
Metronome49 said: Also, in Zelda, you don't have to go anywhere to save... you get Rupees, you get upgrades, you get keys, you die, you keep 'em.
It seems like most players here don't care about difficulty. They'd rather be able to save anywhere.
It's not a hard change to make. Instead of reset game, it's change scene... and then the player can save the game — even if they died.
The problem with that is players will be killing themselves to get back home quickly. That's not good.
beefy_clyro said: Ok just managed another 10 minutes ... Found me a 100 gold coins, nice. Upgraded my gun, went in and changed to that gun, put gamecenter on and saved. How do i see any leaderboards? Is that only for survivor mode?
I think I figured out what's going on. There are other leaderboards, based on country, so I can't see other people playing.
As for "New Releases", BOT is still not appearing. That's one of the worst things that could happen on launch. It's something out of my control.
On the iPhone iTunes App > Games > All Games > New Releases > Not there!
Photics said: I think it was the world map design. I got confused by the double arrows... Yellow door vs. Red Door. When I realized the amount of possibilities, I was like, "I don't have that much time."
So, perhaps that's what's going on here... too many places to go that the player feels overwhelmed.
"That question could apply to any game here though. What GameSalad game would work on XBOX Live Arcade?"
But you keep using a "hardcore/console" audience as an excuse for people not feeling it...
"The initial upgrade in Zelda isn't real though. You don't even start with a sword. The equivalent in BOT would be to take away the machine gun and then give it right back to you."
But with that, you KNOW what you are doing... in Zelda, it teaches you that you can collect weapons... if it WASN'T REAL then why did THEY do it?
Another thing about the original Zelda experience... you can't just go anywhere. You have to collect stuff so you can progress further in the map... like the bridge.
I think just leaving upgrades and money that you get after you die would probably be a great start. Autosave progress.
It shows how things are different today. Players don't like one-hit deaths, and then having to start over. And yet, "hardcore" players complain that games don't have challenge like the games before.
BOT doesn't even have one-hit deaths, but I've seen players passionately defend Mega Man 9... a game where if you don't jump just right, you land into spikes and die.
Agreed with everything that was written by other members. Also quit game after 10 minutes, with no desire to return. I really hope you will listen those opinions and make an update.
I was going to buy this but have been somewhat put off by the comments...maybe when the update is out...i know i will be one of those lost boys with out a tutorial.
I don't think a tutorial or minor additions will make much difference, as it seems everyone here is unmotivated to explore in a game about exploration.
I'll watch what happens, as maybe people who actually spend some time with the game will love it. But unless the overall feedback changes, I think it's better to move onto a new project. Plus, even if everyone here loved it, the app didn't appear on the new releases. Once an app gets buried, it rarely comes back.
tshirtbooth said: I have posted an image twice now it is in the new release section on both iTunes and on the iPhone.
Dont blame apple my friend.
It is what it is. I tested with two devices and my app doesn't appear. Restart app... restart device... no changes. That's a big... and common problem with my app launches.
Comments
Is "It's dangerous to go alone, take this!" a story?
The point of Zelda is to collect the upgrades and save the princess.
The point of BOT is to collect the upgrades and rank high on Survivor.
I can compare it. I just did. I don't see how that changes my understanding of video games.
A* movement would be nice, but I don't think that's easily accomplished with the current version of GameSalad.
And stop with the nonsense... where were the clues for the Silver Arrow? You had to bomb every flat surface, push every rock, burn every tree to find the secrets in that game.
What if i get lost on the way back after exploring?
What if i get a phone call whilst playing the game? GS games dont automatically resume, they freeze, i would have to exit and do it all again!
I think big games need regular saves!
Just make it back at the base is free to save, it will cost you 50 gold coins or something to save at any given time! Then there is that risk to reward factor i know you like.
Good to see you thinkiong about the other changes though
For me, the controls are just wrong. I end up with my finger over the centre of the gameplay area far too much, and the combat just doesnt feel like it makes any sense... I get no kind of feedback on if my hits are connecting etc... and quite often the fight is over, and Im back at the base, with all my earned cash gone before ive even figured out if Ive even hit the enemy.
I know your going for simple...but it needs to be intuitive. The combat needs to have a "connection" so that the player can understand what theyre doing.
Exploration is tedious... most RPGs or MMOs have some sort of automap, or if not, have variety and landmarks in the scenery to help make it interesting. I didnt get any of that in the areas I explored... or at least i didnt feel it.
So thats the 2 main pillars that BOT seems to be built upon... combat and exploration, and sadly in their current form, they dont work.
I know your hurting right now Photics... but things can be changed. You just really need to step back... change your attitude, and listen to what everyone is saying. Your thoughts and opinions on gameplay are obviously off kilter with what most other people think... instead of arguing against it, accept it, and try and use all the feedback to help turn the game around.
Tshirt has echoed advice that was given to you halfway through this thread... regarding pre-release testing, and getting other peoples opinions.
You ignored it back then...dont ignore it again now.
Im coming at this as an RPG and MMO fan, so I understand what you were trying to achieve, but its just not working.
Yet, the reverse is a problem too. So basically... no matter what you do... no matter how many stupid risks you take... you'll always get to keep your gold and upgrades? That doesn't seem right either. Just because I'm debating doesn't mean I don't agree
If your feedback is wrong, then I'm going to say so. There's a screenshot on the app listing with all the items. If people don't look, then there are empty spaces on the equipment menu.
"The motivation of the Tigerfish isn’t explained either. What is the purpose of the quest? It’s basically eat, shoot and don’t get eaten. If you’re looking for a spiritually uplifting parable, that’s not really what this game is about."
Do you read the game description before play Tigerfish and write this?
BOT just have a lot of cromless.
I made the same mistake by making a world so large for Tigerfish.
I love your review! :-)
www.marcosriffel.com
So, this bring up interesting design discussions. Your game was big... huge... and yeah, I had no desire to complete all of the maps.
Why do people feel compelled to play Angry Birds... even after 200+ levels of basically the same thing... but most people here didn't even play long enough to submit a score?
Another thing that surprised me is that there wasn't a lot of feedback about Tigerfish when it was free. Even just to checkout the cool parallax scrolling, I thought there would be more interest here.
I like the movement of TANK however fighting is flawed. I cant seem to get him to shoot when i want him too, press behind and hold right? Doesnt work too well, i just get him turning around loads and occassionally chucking his sword out when im not lined up! D'oh. I think movement should be by touch but then have 2 buttons, 1 to shoot and 1 to use the sword. If you dont want buttons, do hotspots, look how QS done his buttons for Air Supply, you see them at the start and they fade out! It just doesnt work well enough in battle and i die ... constantly!
Do all enemies drop gold? Seems a bit random at the mo, that maybe design choice though.
www.marcosriffel.com
Here photics review:
http://photics.com/tigerfish-review#more-1779
www.marcosriffel.com
I plan on picking this up tonight, but before that, and without playing, there is some weird stuff going on here I would like to comment on.
I don't think that "hardcore/console" audience would work as an argument for the complaints people are having... does anyone think this game would be a success on XBOX Live Arcade, and it's just the iOS casual audience that's the issue? If so, explain other successful non-casual games on iOS.
In comparison to the original Zelda, you get an upgrade immediately, so there is some instant gratification, and you will find a dungeon pretty soon, it's close, and it was well designed to lead you there first, even though you could deviate... and you know what your motivation is, you're finding upgrades, so you can get stronger / get to new places, to eventually finish the game. I'm not sure, personally, if survival competition is a god enough motivator to make me want to find upgrades. Now, I have no idea about the quests until I play, but it SOUNDS like there should be one a little closer to base. Also, in Zelda, you don't have to go anywhere to save... you get Rupees, you get upgrades, you get keys, you die, you keep 'em.
So, perhaps that's what's going on here... too many places to go that the player feels overwhelmed.
Most RPGs or MMOs have an initial "newbie" area with low level, easy to kill enemies to practice on, and little or no downside if you get killed by one, as you respawn close by. These newbie areas also have easy to find quests, that are also easy to understand, and usually help train the player how to use their interface, controls, inventory and weapons.
All this is in a closed in, safe environment...which the player can explore, and learn, before being guided out into the larger gameworld.
I think BOT would benefit from a similar environment... and i was a little confused, as Im sure Ive seen newbie areas in BOT discussed, or mentioned by Photics at some point.
But yup...going back to Zelda... like Metronome mentioned... everything is either intuitive, obvious, or is designed and built in a way that guides the player.
I think BOT needs some sort of intro too. Be that just options screens, or a story intro. I think the way it jumps straight into the game from the loading screen is too jarring, and adds to initially confusing players.
I think your arguing that BOT is an old style RPG...but your missing a lot of the tried and tested gaming conventions that those kind of games employed in order to make them fun.
As for the close proximity of the dungeons in Zelda, as compared to BOT, the first boss is not that far away. It can't be killed with the machine gun though. It seems like most players here don't care about difficulty. They'd rather be able to save anywhere.
It's not a hard change to make. Instead of reset game, it's change scene... and then the player can save the game — even if they died.
The problem with that is players will be killing themselves to get back home quickly. That's not good.
As for "New Releases", BOT is still not appearing. That's one of the worst things that could happen on launch. It's something out of my control.
On the iPhone iTunes App > Games > All Games > New Releases > Not there!
www.marcosriffel.com
But you keep using a "hardcore/console" audience as an excuse for people not feeling it...
"The initial upgrade in Zelda isn't real though. You don't even start with a sword. The equivalent in BOT would be to take away the machine gun and then give it right back to you."
But with that, you KNOW what you are doing... in Zelda, it teaches you that you can collect weapons... if it WASN'T REAL then why did THEY do it?
Another thing about the original Zelda experience... you can't just go anywhere. You have to collect stuff so you can progress further in the map... like the bridge.
I think just leaving upgrades and money that you get after you die would probably be a great start. Autosave progress.
I look forward to trying it out tonight.
- Jeff
I loved Mega Man 2, but I hated Mega Man 9... at first anyway. The game was too hard. I didn't like dying so much.
http://photics.com/mega-man-9-review
http://photics.com/mega-man-9-revisited
It shows how things are different today. Players don't like one-hit deaths, and then having to start over. And yet, "hardcore" players complain that games don't have challenge like the games before.
BOT doesn't even have one-hit deaths, but I've seen players passionately defend Mega Man 9... a game where if you don't jump just right, you land into spikes and die.
Shadows Peak is an atmospheric psychological horror that explores the dark side of a player.
Darren.
I'll watch what happens, as maybe people who actually spend some time with the game will love it. But unless the overall feedback changes, I think it's better to move onto a new project. Plus, even if everyone here loved it, the app didn't appear on the new releases. Once an app gets buried, it rarely comes back.