Hmm, if our games are posted under a single account wouldn't it just take the actions of a few people to get the entire GS user-base suspended by Apple? LOL.
Given that GS don't speak all of the languages submissions are in and can't possibly be checking ALL the code to make sure people aren't adding hidden "features" etc.. And they won't be doing quality control.. Surely that's a hilariously bad situation for anyone to be in?
Mixel said: Hmm, if our games are posted under a single account wouldn't it just take the actions of a few people to get the entire GS user-base suspended by Apple? LOL.
Given that GS don't speak all of the languages submissions are in and can't possibly be checking ALL the code to make sure people aren't adding hidden "features" etc.. And they won't be doing quality control.. Surely that's a hilariously bad situation for anyone to be in?
design219 said: Wow, that is a very interesting point.
Knowing that it would only take a handful of angry people to sabotage your publisher and destroy your app's online presence isn't exactly encouraging when choosing a publisher.
... Especially when even the official support forum is full of angry people.. I just can't see the proposed model working once you think about all the potential pitfalls.
I think also we are forgetting that the GS folk have some VC money or investors, so they need to come up with a business model that makes money. They are accountable now. My guess is that the current model does not make any money.
So they need (or think they need) to be more like AppMaker (http://www.appmakr.com) but for games. The difference I think is that you can not really make an instant unique game that will make big earnings. Game design is different.
Also I think the GS Adobe claim is a real stretch. Adobe makes great (not cheap) software to let creative people flourish. They do not take a slice of my pie. In doing so we come to Adobe to buy more and upgrade for life. We become lifelong clients. Millions of loyal customers come back to Adobe...I have for a decade...
You can not hang, draw and quarter you fans. Well you can I guess, but only once.
I think we can all agree, and come to the conclusion that GS direct alone will not work.
They can continue with that model, but they need to have a tier of options, one of those they absolutely need is to offer PRO to it's users.
Then they can continue to work on their marketing efforts with GS direct, and perhaps some people, even those using Pro, may want to publish some of their games through GS direct in the future.
But at LEAST, if they are to institute GS direct, it should only be as an option.
I think a very good majority of us can agree upon that.
I have good faith in the GS team that they have heard our comments, and will come up with another plan.
Let's face it, my fellow GS compadres. Money talks.
If they make no money off this model, then they will be forced to find a better solution. At this point, the community has offered their voice, and it has nothing to change their stance, or get us better answers.
I am personally boycotting the GS forums, and I encourage the rest of you to do the same. If the screams of a thousand voices aren't enough to get answers, then how about we try silence?
Let's give them a glimpse into the future of their 'community' when these changes go into effect.
Yodapollo said: With today’s announcement, GameSalad is now for everyone.
...now there’s no subscription or fees to pay unless creators choose to publish their games on iTunes.
In 1982 Adobe freed desktop publishing from the age old print shops and ushered in the era of the graphic designer. We're doing the same for game designers.
...This is only the beginning.
Beginning? Beginning of the end.
It's great that you opened up the tool to everyone but the cost is too high. Instead of developing a pricing structure and options where you could satisfy the amateur, the serious amateur, the semi-pro and the pro, you decided to make it all free, and take a piece of every published game off the back end.
This model is not acceptable to any semi-pro or pro level developers, but this likely isn't much of an issue as GameSalad suffered from such poor performance that it wasn't ready for that level of work anyway.
So, now people save $200 as they don't need an Apple dev account or the $99 GS license a year. They get to publish their games. You get a piece of all the action. It'll probably work for you, but you will run off everyone that could have or would have, done pro quality work on your engine. You'll be left with pretty low level enthusiast games which won't sell well enough for your % to matter.
Your Adobe comment is amusing. Adobe didn't take a cut of every ad or piece of media your created and published with their products. Dealing with an Apple dev account and iPhone publishing is not a significant barrier to entry. A decent toolkit/engine, is.
It's a shame because GameSalad was really close to being awesome. It was fast and easy to create games and content with. If the performance wasn't so horrible, it would have been worth buying a $500 option of a $2000 option for the engine.
I suspect this move comes down to the fact that you couldn't attract enough users at $99 to make the business work. If I were you I'd examine that fact and work on making a better product. If GameSalad really *was* competitive with Unity or other engines you would have had all the licenses you needed.
Some one earlier mused "what if GS Direct went Bankrupt"? The most likely result based on observable history is that all our shares would never be paid, and they'd just keep whatever they could in their pocket.
Maybe they should sell the tool outright at $29 (one-time) to own (like "Comic Life")and attract more customers rather than losing the best ones with this "Direct" fiasco.
Maybe charging $20 for returning the generated XCode would be a good source of revenue for them as well. IT might be spaghetti code, but it would certainly provide a useful service to customers, who could clean it up and enhance it.
When the fecal material hits the oscillating device, will the GS tool still be useful for low level prototyping?
ORBZ said: Just a thought, but what if they plan on releasing a GameSalad Store/Player App whereby they leverage in app purchases within their player to deliver our games as "books" to anyone who has downloaded the free player.
Our games, after all, are more like interactive documents than they are like executable code.
Suddenly in this scenario the GS brand becomes a way for everyone to create games, but all be housed under the same GS store without polluting the AppStore with trash. Then in GS's store they can promote the best games. Even spinning them off into AppStore games if worthy.
I think apple will kill it.
This is actually something that sounds possible.
It would fit the rather cryptic comments they have said so far. This would be like 10 times worse than what people think is gonna happen already.
We don't end up on the app store at all. Just as purchasables within an overall GS app. They could create their own entire store of in app purchase games. Scary, scary thought.
This I would like to know now from Gendai, is this the way it works????
Hey guys. GameSalad has already "introduced" GameSalad Direct, and there is already another thread from the COO that is a "brief FAQ" that sorta (?) explains this thread topic.
Besides, I've already dissected it in detail on my blog here: http://bit.ly/daa0Om
Shouldn't this thread be closed? It seems that the reaction has been split over both topics, and we're beating a dead horse already, especially if this one has been superseded by the COO's thread, which is also stickied. Please agree with me and we'll close this and focus on the other thread now.
Ok, as you wish. It's just going to bleed all over the place in both threads, and I've lost track already. But, you should all be aware that this is it.
I've already made up my mind and I'm going to do my bigger projects with Corona and maybe do some of the smaller and transitional ones on GameSalad Direct.
Like I said in my blog, I hope for the best, but am prepared for the worst. If this goes south and GS closes shop, all our apps and work go with it. Lots can happen in a year's time. Just look how Gendai/GameSalad switched gears in 18 months. The old interview with CEO Michael Agustin shows he had such different plans with GameSalad.
StusApps said: ... We don't end up on the app store at all. Just as purchasables within an overall GS app. They could create their own entire store of in app purchase games. Scary, scary thought. This I would like to know now from Gendai, is this the way it works????
That would be totally awful. Under that system I'd imagine sales going right down the toilet, and anything even remotely unusual being completely lost in the process. The more weird something is the more it needs its own listing. Hell, nobody would be able to find ANY of our games in the Appstore if they were essentially DLC for some GS uberapp. My head is hurting just thinking about that! Please tell us that's not going to happen!
Some of things GS is most suitable for are *not* what Gendai market it at primarily.. I have plans for a whole series of educational apps.. I cant imagine it being easy to sell them if people had to download a game-centric client app first.
Please don't lock this thread, we aren't all just recycling the same points - new ones are happening all the time.. It's not hard to keep track of two topics.
BeyondtheTech said: Ok, as you wish. It's just going to bleed all over the place in both threads, and I've lost track already. But, you should all be aware that this is it.
I've already made up my mind and I'm going to do my bigger projects with Corona and maybe do some of the smaller and transitional ones on GameSalad Direct.
Like I said in my blog, I hope for the best, but am prepared for the worst. If this goes south and GS closes shop, all our apps and work go with it. Lots can happen in a year's time. Just look how Gendai/GameSalad switched gears in 18 months. The old interview with CEO Michael Agustin shows he had such different plans with GameSalad.
Or the 'real person' interview with Yoshi...what a decent chap.
"This week, a significant number of GameSalad developers are headed for the door. Ansca Mobile, which makes the competing Corona SDK mobile development system, says that it has seen thousands of new referrals to its Web site and that its SDK has been downloaded over 200 times by new guests in the past week. "
This is just a taste of what will h appen if YOU dont listen to your community!
beefy_clyro said: If i was GameSalad i'd be VERY worried with this;
"This week, a significant number of GameSalad developers are headed for the door. Ansca Mobile, which makes the competing Corona SDK mobile development system, says that it has seen thousands of new referrals to its Web site and that its SDK has been downloaded over 200 times by new guests in the past week. "
This is just a taste of what will h appen if YOU dont listen to your community!
Like I said before, times ticking. The longer they wait the more Gs will suffer. =/
If you cant afford 200$, how are you then going to afford graphics/music? Everyone is not an artist. GS is going to get rich on clipart/amateur games made by 12 year old kids? 40% of 1200 games that makes 12$ is not much. I'm actually looking forward to the GSD launch. I'm sure that will be entertaining:)
victorkin11 said: What if the old users can't get any updates except GS direct, I think Gendai Games Inc. should provide us refund!!
Exactly my concern. We may get 0.9 but are subscribers going to be able to use the new features and enhancements beyond that? This is a question they have not touched on. My gut feeling says no, subscribers will be a continuing dying breed as time goes by.
If Game Salad Direct actually goes through as mentioned, I don't think you have to worry about reviews TSB. I would never support this product but would probably do the opposite since it seems like it will feed the app store with more low quality apps.
Unfortunately I think there are many members here like yourself that make some very great apps and show the potential of this product. But after talking to others at major conferences, there is already a roll of eyes if you mention GS. What do you think is going to happen if it is all under one name on the app store? Now users can safely avoid GS products without having to worry about accidentally downloading a GS App. If I was a consumer and I had a bad stigma about GS games, I would just avoid downloading anything under Gendai's company. It makes it easy now and unfortunately creates a new app store scenario for members like you. Your quality products become buried under a sea of 12 year submissions using stolen web art or stick figures.
I agree with keeping the pro plan using the old pricing structure since it separates those who are willing to invest in themselves as well as GameSalad. If you can not pay $2000 for a piece of software that is valuable to your development then you are not taking this seriously. If Gendai wants to lower it and use Synthesis’s method, I think that is a plausible solution as well. That is just my opinion which is not meant to offend anyone. I don’t even own a pro membership myself due to the little differences offered between the two versions but I always give my clients the option of having a pro account or basic. Due to the price markup, I have not had one opt for paying the extra to have their company logo displayed on the splash screen.
If you were wondering what conferences, I had just got back from GDC Austin last week and have also been to GDC San Fransisco as well as Siggraph this year to try and pick up clients. Unfortunately most of my work ends up in iTGB or Unity due to the restrictions GS already has but sometimes I can convince a customer to use GS if they wish to save money and development time.
beefy_clyro said: If i was GameSalad i'd be VERY worried with this;
"This week, a significant number of GameSalad developers are headed for the door. Ansca Mobile, which makes the competing Corona SDK mobile development system, says that it has seen thousands of new referrals to its Web site and that its SDK has been downloaded over 200 times by new guests in the past week. "
This is just a taste of what will h appen if YOU dont listen to your community!
I think you'll find people freaked out and ran... they'll soon see that it takes months and months to become proficient in any kind of programming language. Many of the users are starting from scratch, so will more than likely be back. Simple fact: PROGRAMMING IS VERY TOUGH.
Lua is one of the easiest languages to learn but it's still not exactly child's play, hell, GS is even tough to get your head around at times and it's totally GUI based! This whole "I'm going to Corona" thing is ridiculous... people really haven't thought it out properly... it's just not that easy.
POLYGAMe said: I think you'll find people freaked out and ran... they'll soon see that it takes months and months to become proficient in any kind of programming language. Many of the users are starting from scratch, so will more than likely be back. Simple fact: PROGRAMMING IS VERY TOUGH.
Lua is one of the easiest languages to learn but it's still not exactly child's play, hell, GS is even tough to get your head around at times and it's totally GUI based! This whole "I'm going to Corona" thing is ridiculous... people really haven't thought it out properly... it's just not that easy.
You'd be surprised how much you are actually programming when it comes to GameSalad. They just make it visual and fun. The only difference is syntax. Everything in GameSalad is a drop-down menu or dragging the right behavior or action. Whether you type it in a text file or you drag a keyword in a GUI, it's boils down to being the same. One line of code in Corona is the same as dragging an Actor to a Scene.
Funny you should mention this, as I just finished yet another detailed post on my blog directly related to this: http://bit.ly/93ZKnN
BeyondtheTech said: You'd be surprised how much you are actually programming when it comes to GameSalad. They just make it visual and fun. The only difference is syntax. Everything in GameSalad is a drop-down menu or dragging the right behavior or action. Whether you type it in a text file or you drag a keyword in a GUI, it's boils down to being the same. One line of code in Corona is the same as dragging an Actor to a Scene.
Funny you should mention this, as I just finished yet another detailed post on my blog directly related to this: http://bit.ly/93ZKnN
Yes but you still need to REMEMBER that one line of code and every other line of code. There are so many commands etc... it's nowhere near as simple as a GUI based system... with GS you don't need to remember how to create an attribute, because the buttons are right there.
POLYGAMe said: I think you'll find people freaked out and ran... they'll soon see that it takes months and months to become proficient in any kind of programming language. Many of the users are starting from scratch, so will more than likely be back. Simple fact: PROGRAMMING IS VERY TOUGH.
Lua is one of the easiest languages to learn but it's still not exactly child's play, hell, GS is even tough to get your head around at times and it's totally GUI based! This whole "I'm going to Corona" thing is ridiculous... people really haven't thought it out properly... it's just not that easy.
It wont be a simple transition no, but for a lot of people, going through a publisher is a no go! If GS Direct is the only option then i could either;
a. lose any brand i have or wanted to develop. Pay a build fee. Have my game submitted through a publisher. Pay royalties on all of my games.
or
b. Learn a language and Lua being one of the 'easier' languages. Then ... none of the above.
Do i want to learn to program? No. Do i LOVE GameSalad? Yes. Do i want a publisher? No. Theres pro's and cons, speed of development vs features for example. I think a lot will defect if this is the only option.
Corona may be a tough pill to swallow, and very intimidating for some, but GS direct is not an option for me, and I think I speak for a lot of people here. We don't want a publisher. It's really that simple.
Without a doubt, if we don't get Pro back, I will sadly have to move elsewhere.
I'll continue to publish with GS with my express license whilst learning a new tool. As cumbersome, and scary as it may be, so was riding a bike, and so was learning to swim as a kid. Like any obstacle, it can be overcome, especially when faced with tough decisions.
Comments
Given that GS don't speak all of the languages submissions are in and can't possibly be checking ALL the code to make sure people aren't adding hidden "features" etc.. And they won't be doing quality control.. Surely that's a hilariously bad situation for anyone to be in?
???
My new guess is that apple is moving towards a publisher only type store, and if that is the case we will all be ahead of the game.
Just a thought
... Especially when even the official support forum is full of angry people.. I just can't see the proposed model working once you think about all the potential pitfalls.
I think also we are forgetting that the GS folk have some VC money or investors, so they need to come up with a business model that makes money. They are accountable now. My guess is that the current model does not make any money.
So they need (or think they need) to be more like AppMaker (http://www.appmakr.com) but for games. The difference I think is that you can not really make an instant unique game that will make big earnings. Game design is different.
Also I think the GS Adobe claim is a real stretch. Adobe makes great (not cheap) software to let creative people flourish. They do not take a slice of my pie. In doing so we come to Adobe to buy more and upgrade for life. We become lifelong clients. Millions of loyal customers come back to Adobe...I have for a decade...
You can not hang, draw and quarter you fans. Well you can I guess, but only once.
John
They can continue with that model, but they need to have a tier of options, one of those they absolutely need is to offer PRO to it's users.
Then they can continue to work on their marketing efforts with GS direct, and perhaps some people, even those using Pro, may want to publish some of their games through GS direct in the future.
But at LEAST, if they are to institute GS direct, it should only be as an option.
I think a very good majority of us can agree upon that.
I have good faith in the GS team that they have heard our comments, and will come up with another plan.
If they make no money off this model, then they will be forced to find a better solution. At this point, the community has offered their voice, and it has nothing to change their stance, or get us better answers.
I am personally boycotting the GS forums, and I encourage the rest of you to do the same. If the screams of a thousand voices aren't enough to get answers, then how about we try silence?
Let's give them a glimpse into the future of their 'community' when these changes go into effect.
Actions speak louder than words! Who is with me?
It's great that you opened up the tool to everyone but the cost is too high. Instead of developing a pricing structure and options where you could satisfy the amateur, the serious amateur, the semi-pro and the pro, you decided to make it all free, and take a piece of every published game off the back end.
This model is not acceptable to any semi-pro or pro level developers, but this likely isn't much of an issue as GameSalad suffered from such poor performance that it wasn't ready for that level of work anyway.
So, now people save $200 as they don't need an Apple dev account or the $99 GS license a year. They get to publish their games. You get a piece of all the action. It'll probably work for you, but you will run off everyone that could have or would have, done pro quality work on your engine. You'll be left with pretty low level enthusiast games which won't sell well enough for your % to matter.
Your Adobe comment is amusing. Adobe didn't take a cut of every ad or piece of media your created and published with their products. Dealing with an Apple dev account and iPhone publishing is not a significant barrier to entry. A decent toolkit/engine, is.
It's a shame because GameSalad was really close to being awesome. It was fast and easy to create games and content with. If the performance wasn't so horrible, it would have been worth buying a $500 option of a $2000 option for the engine.
I suspect this move comes down to the fact that you couldn't attract enough users at $99 to make the business work. If I were you I'd examine that fact and work on making a better product. If GameSalad really *was* competitive with Unity or other engines you would have had all the licenses you needed.
Maybe they should sell the tool outright at $29 (one-time) to own (like "Comic Life")and attract more customers rather than losing the best ones with this "Direct" fiasco.
Maybe charging $20 for returning the generated XCode would be a good source of revenue for them as well. IT might be spaghetti code, but it would certainly provide a useful service to customers, who could clean it up and enhance it.
When the fecal material hits the oscillating device, will the GS tool still be useful for low level prototyping?
It would fit the rather cryptic comments they have said so far. This would be like 10 times worse than what people think is gonna happen already.
We don't end up on the app store at all. Just as purchasables within an overall GS app. They could create their own entire store of in app purchase games. Scary, scary thought.
This I would like to know now from Gendai, is this the way it works????
Besides, I've already dissected it in detail on my blog here: http://bit.ly/daa0Om
Shouldn't this thread be closed? It seems that the reaction has been split over both topics, and we're beating a dead horse already, especially if this one has been superseded by the COO's thread, which is also stickied. Please agree with me and we'll close this and focus on the other thread now.
I think the length of this thread sends a strong message.
Cheers,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
+1 TSB
I've already made up my mind and I'm going to do my bigger projects with Corona and maybe do some of the smaller and transitional ones on GameSalad Direct.
Like I said in my blog, I hope for the best, but am prepared for the worst. If this goes south and GS closes shop, all our apps and work go with it. Lots can happen in a year's time. Just look how Gendai/GameSalad switched gears in 18 months. The old interview with CEO Michael Agustin shows he had such different plans with GameSalad.
Some of things GS is most suitable for are *not* what Gendai market it at primarily.. I have plans for a whole series of educational apps.. I cant imagine it being easy to sell them if people had to download a game-centric client app first.
Please don't lock this thread, we aren't all just recycling the same points - new ones are happening all the time.. It's not hard to keep track of two topics.
http://gamemakerblog.com/2008/09/28/new-iphone-game-development-platform/
"This week, a significant number of GameSalad developers are headed for the door. Ansca Mobile, which makes the competing Corona SDK mobile development system, says that it has seen thousands of new referrals to its Web site and that its SDK has been downloaded over 200 times by new guests in the past week. "
This is just a taste of what will h appen if YOU dont listen to your community!
Unfortunately I think there are many members here like yourself that make some very great apps and show the potential of this product. But after talking to others at major conferences, there is already a roll of eyes if you mention GS. What do you think is going to happen if it is all under one name on the app store? Now users can safely avoid GS products without having to worry about accidentally downloading a GS App. If I was a consumer and I had a bad stigma about GS games, I would just avoid downloading anything under Gendai's company. It makes it easy now and unfortunately creates a new app store scenario for members like you. Your quality products become buried under a sea of 12 year submissions using stolen web art or stick figures.
I agree with keeping the pro plan using the old pricing structure since it separates those who are willing to invest in themselves as well as GameSalad. If you can not pay $2000 for a piece of software that is valuable to your development then you are not taking this seriously. If Gendai wants to lower it and use Synthesis’s method, I think that is a plausible solution as well. That is just my opinion which is not meant to offend anyone. I don’t even own a pro membership myself due to the little differences offered between the two versions but I always give my clients the option of having a pro account or basic. Due to the price markup, I have not had one opt for paying the extra to have their company logo displayed on the splash screen.
If you were wondering what conferences, I had just got back from GDC Austin last week and have also been to GDC San Fransisco as well as Siggraph this year to try and pick up clients. Unfortunately most of my work ends up in iTGB or Unity due to the restrictions GS already has but sometimes I can convince a customer to use GS if they wish to save money and development time.
Lua is one of the easiest languages to learn but it's still not exactly child's play, hell, GS is even tough to get your head around at times and it's totally GUI based! This whole "I'm going to Corona" thing is ridiculous... people really haven't thought it out properly... it's just not that easy.
Funny you should mention this, as I just finished yet another detailed post on my blog directly related to this: http://bit.ly/93ZKnN
a. lose any brand i have or wanted to develop. Pay a build fee. Have my game submitted through a publisher. Pay royalties on all of my games.
or
b. Learn a language and Lua being one of the 'easier' languages. Then ... none of the above.
Do i want to learn to program? No. Do i LOVE GameSalad? Yes. Do i want a publisher? No. Theres pro's and cons, speed of development vs features for example. I think a lot will defect if this is the only option.
Without a doubt, if we don't get Pro back, I will sadly have to move elsewhere.
I'll continue to publish with GS with my express license whilst learning a new tool. As cumbersome, and scary as it may be, so was riding a bike, and so was learning to swim as a kid. Like any obstacle, it can be overcome, especially when faced with tough decisions.