@Techno... My proposal allows them to gather up to $2000+ per year from a dev account (over time) that has built dozens of apps. It allows the amount a person pays GS to be scaled to the amount they use the tool.
The scalability factor makes it work. The up front flat rate buy in is TOO expensive for most...but to have the expenses be scaled in and allow the devs to slowly grow into the higher fees...makes it work for devs and Gendai gets richer with every year that goes by...as the app counts increase.
My profit model is based on app counts published GS...not download counts on the app store. This is where a software tool developer should align themselves...with the app counts produced...not the performance of the products produced by the tool.
My model gives them a taste of both and keeps EVERYBODY happy.
It allows GS to advertise a zero upfront cost solution...but still have an option for veterans and experienced users to retain control of their products.
The Appstore is all about who controls the titles...and those are controlled by the publisher. Even though we own the IP of the app contents...if we publish through GS...they own/control the title...and that is what matters the most.
Seasoned devs and businessmen won't give up that control. Its suicide...as it locks the product into GS forever. They know this...and so do we. This is why vets like FMG won't do it...because if they have a successful title...there is no way to port it to XCode and retain its ranking and position on the appstore...as the title account will be locked into the GS account.
$2000 flat rate is not to expensive for those of us who use GameSalad as a professional tool to make money. Again as I said a few moments ago, I am happy to pay that to support these guys.
No need to flood the forum with a million different options....
1. GameSalad Direct for new users and casual game makers and 2. GameSalad Pro for those who use it for work in a professional setting.
synthesis said: @TechnoTroll Your account is less than 24 hours old. You are either impersonating a real GS user or attempting to conceal your real identity.
A choice between -Publishing under GS with a 25% revenue share -Publishing app on your own for $300 per app.
$300 may seem like a lot per app but just think about it If you spend a lot of money on a game, then you take it more seriously. The more serious you take it, the better quality app you make. This will lead to a ton of good quality apps from GS, which will give GS a better reputation which will help out the whole community.
i think we are moving too quickly. Before we move on the GS direct I think we need to start improving our reputation by bringing better quality apps to the app store
I for one have already started doing this by removing every single one of my apps off the app store and starting off all new. I will now be investing a lot of money in my apps and try to bring quality into them regardless of if they sell or not
$300 per app is too expensive for serious devs...and too much risk for a title...since every title is an experiment and a gamble. Most serious devs put a lot of time into an app anyway.
I still think my model works for all parties involved. If you are a power pusher of apps...doing 10-20 per year...then at $250+$100/app...you are going to cough up $2000+.
If you are a more calculating dev with a smaller number of titles per year...then $250+ 4 or 5 apps at $100 is more swallowable.
$300/title is price gouging since other SDKs allow you to build unlimited titles for that much money. GS will make tons of money (over time) with the model I have put forward...if their software can compete with other SDKs.
This relates to ALL gamesalad developers, not only serious ones
A lot of GS users were/are making a 1 day game challenge, or throwing together a simple game in 2 hours. While some of these may actually be considered good, a lot of them suck too. If you were charged $300 per app, no way would you dare submit 24 hours after starting the project.
It will push people to work harder on their games, and then we'll see more games like bumps coming from GS
This will strengthen GS's rep., and it could then attract more people to come and use the software to build their own apps.
artonskyblue said: $300 is expensive, but thats the point...
This relates to ALL gamesalad developers, not only serious ones
A lot of GS users were/are making a 1 day game challenge, or throwing together a simple game in 2 hours. While some of these may actually be considered good, a lot of them suck too. If you were charged $300 per app, no way would you dare submit 24 hours after starting the project.
It will push people to work harder on their games, and then we'll see more games like bumps coming from GS
Arton, While your reasoning may be quite sound, it also means that people will take less risks with their games, and therefore innovation will be stifled.
If I were being charged $300/app to compile...I wouldn't be using the software. Its too much.
$100 is enough to make you think twice about self-publishing. If you want to compile taptards or just "play" with GS...the GSDirect Publishing option is still there.
For new users and non-programmers...GS Direct is the best solution.
But the option 2 availability priced in line with the market gives indie devs their independence at a fair price...that's not too much to swallow but enough to keep the non-serious devs from using it and supporting the publishing model.
Then GS makes money from every app published with their software as they desire...not just on every user. Its a win-win scenario from every angle that I can tell and I think they would make MORE money with my model over 3 years then the one they are planning to institute.
Its a scalable, publishing driven system that could be fully automated and be all-inclusive...and democratic as they suggest...not authoritarian as it actually is presently.
DEMOCRACY == FREEDOM OF CHOICE
The publishing model they are proposing is NOT democratic...mine is and if they were to institute it or something like it...many devs would return quickly and the software's user base will grow rapidly.
More users == more apps produced == more $$$ for GS.
Remove the independence == less pro users == lower quality apps == decline of brand relevance == death of GS.
synthesis said: Only 1 solution will keep this company operating and satisfy this entire debacle and bring back those that departed.
GENDAI...LISTEN UP!!! Make the software free for all. At time of publishing offer two options to the dev for a title submission:
Option 1) $20 + 25% net royalties >>> publish with GS. Option 2) $100/year to compile a single registered app title and allow the dev to publish the app bundle under their own app store account. This would require a PRO Administrative/Membership account that would cost $250/year (existing users have their accounts grandfathered in for the duration of their license...Current Pro users get an extra year for free).
This would require 1 more thing: Get the GE up to par with other platforms.
Do this...and you might just salvage your reputation...and the exodus may reverse direction.
This is a TRUE win-win...as it allows hobbyists to come in at low risk...but allows the software to be used as a tool for pro devs.
If you force the pros into your publishing scheme...they won't come...and you won't have the titles to keep the wheels greased...and the whole system will collapse under the weight of its administrative overhead...keeping poor performing apps supported.
This is my best solution that I can come up with for you all. If you don't put something like this...or close to this in play...I highly suspect this whole thing will collapse.
Only one solution? So all the other suggestions are all null and void? You could have saved us the trouble at the start of this thread, since none of OUR ideas are valid.
@Polygame... Stop taking this personally and read what I wrote.
The only solution presented by the community so far was "Bring back the old system".
NO ONE has presented a hybrid system that satisfies both Gendai's desires of charging on volume and not on user counts.
My model meshes both systems into something different that has not been proposed. And the reason I say its the only one that will work was to not hurt your tender feelings but to suggest that It validates the publishing model GS seems to be stuck on implementing and allow devs to retain independence within that new model for an upfront price that is scalable and app count driven.
I've read damn near every post on here on the topic and NOBODY has suggested this model that I can find. Every other suggestion has been a rehash or small adjustment to the old model...which GS has made perfectly clear is being removed.
This solution is unique and new and could be implemented into the new system will little modification. They aren't going back to the old model or bringing back a $2000 pro option. That is clear.
If they don't institute this model (or something very similar to it)...in lieu of the strict all or nothing publishing model they are planning to institute...then FMG and 2/3 or the other devs around here are leaving for good...not just threatening to leave. They will leave.
This wasn't an attack on your ideas...stop trying to make it an attack. Its a constructive solution that fits the needs of everyone...and its the only one that I have seen proposed that actually could work financially for GS and for the devs alike.
I'm not taking anything personally, nor do I consider it an attack on my ideas (I really don't have an opinion on this matter, other than they need to keep some sort of indie dev option open). I just don't have such a massive ego that I think I am the only one that could possibly be right.
synthesis said: @Polygame... Stop taking this personally and read what I wrote.
The only solution presented by the community so far was "Bring back the old system".
NO ONE has presented a hybrid system that satisfies both Gendai's desires of charging on volume and not on user counts.
My model meshes both systems into something different that has not been proposed. And the reason I say its the only one that will work was to not hurt your tender feelings but to suggest that It validates the publishing model GS seems to be stuck on implementing and allow devs to retain independence within that new model for an upfront price that is scalable and app count driven.
I've read damn near every post on here on the topic and NOBODY has suggested this model that I can find. Every other suggestion has been a rehash or small adjustment to the old model...which GS has made perfectly clear is being removed.
This solution is unique and new and could be implemented into the new system will little modification. They aren't going back to the old model or bringing back a $2000 pro option. That is clear.
If they don't institute this model (or something very similar to it)...in lieu of the strict all or nothing publishing model they are planning to institute...then FMG and 2/3 or the other devs around here are leaving for good...not just threatening to leave. They will leave.
This wasn't an attack on your ideas...stop trying to make it an attack. Its a constructive solution that fits the needs of everyone...and its the only one that I have seen proposed that actually could work financially for GS and for the devs alike.
Although the tone was a bit off, I can't help but sort of agree with Synthesis on this new hybrid system idea.
ktfright said: Although the tone was a bit off, I can't help but sort of agree with Synthesis on this one.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea at all... quite good, actually... I just think that boldly stating it's THE ONLY ONE is a bit off... he pretty much said "do as I say or your company will die".
My apologies to you if you felt I was egotistical. Perhaps you should consider that I am trying to get GS's attention (not forking the community in the ribs) on all of our behalves to take SERIOUS consideration of my proposal as I think it could possibly work well.
I do not know their internal numbers of dev counts and volume of apps but apparently they are below their expectations...which is why they made such a drastic fundamental shift.
Its clear with this move that they do not have the dev counts they need to support their product on licensing alone...which is why they are chasing volume. My proposal takes the focus off of download counts and on to app title counts. It is still a volume model but no one has proposed a solution based on title counts. Every proposal from the community has been a mixed bag or different ratio of download counts vs. user counts.
Title count licensing could be profitable for GS. And instituting a publishing option that allows for independence (at a tax) but still using their proposed model to attract increased user counts...thus generating more title counts could prove to be a successful model all around.
Its a win-win. Its not about my ego vs. your ego...its a brand NEW idea that is actually pretty good and fair and if implemented...would stop the exodus.
Ansca is over there buying beers and handing out new customer discounts by the truckload (I've gotten 3 this week and we already bought the license 2 months ago). If they (GS) want the bleeding to stop...they have to try something different than what they are planning...and my model could be the compromise that works.
So excuse me if it sounds egotistical...because its not...its about bringing viability to a business model that is in line with demands and expectation of their customers (like you) and the goals of their internal finances (which we don't know...but I suspect needs a boost).
This model could satisfy their thirst for cash and still allow you and me to play with GS in a fiscal environment that promotes individuality and allows ALL OF US (GS included) to profit from that collective success.
I am willing to pay 2000 $ for a GS Pro license to create apps and publish them in my own AppStore account with my own branding and without any further revenue sharing.
I really love this powerful tool and I would love to continue using it - and I would be willing to pay for it! Please keep up the PRO option.
Just leave the pro version Gendai, even for 2000 USD, then all of us will be happy. New users will have the GS Direct. More experienced users and companies will have GS pro.
You will have money from selling games through GS Direct and from pro memberships.
but keeping pro would require them to continually update their software to support 2 different ways of operating. lets say direct games don't compile in the same way on an automated server. I am pretty sure that existing subscribers will not get all the new GS software updates over this next year, i think at some point they'll just leave the old servers to compile old subscribers games.
synthesis said: Only 1 solution will keep this company operating and satisfy this entire debacle and bring back those that departed.
GENDAI...LISTEN UP!!! Make the software free for all. At time of publishing offer two options to the dev for a title submission:
Option 1) $20 + 25% net royalties >>> publish with GS. Option 2) $100/year to compile a single registered app title and allow the dev to publish the app bundle under their own app store account. This would require a PRO Administrative/Membership account that would cost $250/year (existing users have their accounts grandfathered in for the duration of their license...Current Pro users get an extra year for free).
This would require 1 more thing: Get the GE up to par with other platforms.
Do this...and you might just salvage your reputation...and the exodus may reverse direction.
This is a TRUE win-win...as it allows hobbyists to come in at low risk...but allows the software to be used as a tool for pro devs.
If you force the pros into your publishing scheme...they won't come...and you won't have the titles to keep the wheels greased...and the whole system will collapse under the weight of its administrative overhead...keeping poor performing apps supported.
This is my best solution that I can come up with for you all. If you don't put something like this...or close to this in play...I highly suspect this whole thing will collapse.
first. they told us there is a big update and great improvement & bug fix, so we working on largest projects. then they introduced the GS direct, we all doomed to failure, finally we need to determine release by GS direct or not release it!!
so I'm afraid they want to force old users to use the gs direct, they will not provide any updates for us!
@Synthesis: I think your idea is great, and I do recall someone doing a poll stating that if they charged $100 to compile an app and have it under their own itunes account, would that be fair, and I think a lot of people agreed upon that.
I think it's a very fair price, and the additional $250 per year is also.
At any rate, we can all agree that they MUST offer the option for users, especially PRO users the ability to upload apps to their own account.
We weren't making enough with the old system. We can't go back, just no way to keep this afloat (or make enough profit for it to be worth anyone's time).
The only choice we could see was to expand into other parts of the business (publishing, marketing) and get more of the revenue cut.
So we're going to offer a better tool, more services and get more money in return.
Some of you will like this, some not. We're thinking it will be relatively fair because the larger chunk of dough will only come from the really successful games and if you make alot you'll probably be happy you did and the improved tool, performance and marketing will probably have been part of you making alot on your app anyways.
It's really not a crazy idea, just poorly communicated.
They priced themselves into near oblivion. Now, a bunch of suits came in with big corporate ideas and their $1M briefcase, and messed it up for the rest of us.
Joe/FMG is right. Kill the Express version. Make Pro the only one available. Make the the splash screen customizable with a forced, small GameSalad icon on the bottom-right corner.
Sell it for $399 per year, compete directly with Corona, with the edge of a full GUI. If they really want the GameSalad logo gone, sell it for $499.
If they can get 15,000 subscribers at $399, that will be almost $6M. And they can bank all that, not have to deal with those suits and their wacky ideas of implementing some return on their investment.
According to the COO, they want customers of GS games to connect to other GameSalad games? We already have something similar to that: OpenFeint, Game Center, Plus+, Crystal, etc. We don't need another network within a network, especially if Apple makes it so easy and built-in to their OS for me to see what other Game Center games are out there and what my friends are already playing.
Comments
The pro dev accounts would have the option to publish an app under option 1 with the $20 publishing fee being waived.
My proposal allows them to gather up to $2000+ per year from a dev account (over time) that has built dozens of apps. It allows the amount a person pays GS to be scaled to the amount they use the tool.
The scalability factor makes it work. The up front flat rate buy in is TOO expensive for most...but to have the expenses be scaled in and allow the devs to slowly grow into the higher fees...makes it work for devs and Gendai gets richer with every year that goes by...as the app counts increase.
My profit model is based on app counts published GS...not download counts on the app store. This is where a software tool developer should align themselves...with the app counts produced...not the performance of the products produced by the tool.
My model gives them a taste of both and keeps EVERYBODY happy.
It allows GS to advertise a zero upfront cost solution...but still have an option for veterans and experienced users to retain control of their products.
The Appstore is all about who controls the titles...and those are controlled by the publisher. Even though we own the IP of the app contents...if we publish through GS...they own/control the title...and that is what matters the most.
Seasoned devs and businessmen won't give up that control. Its suicide...as it locks the product into GS forever. They know this...and so do we. This is why vets like FMG won't do it...because if they have a successful title...there is no way to port it to XCode and retain its ranking and position on the appstore...as the title account will be locked into the GS account.
No need to flood the forum with a million different options....
1. GameSalad Direct for new users and casual game makers
and
2. GameSalad Pro for those who use it for work in a professional setting.
THAT'S IT! Let Gendai figure out the rest!
Your account is less than 24 hours old. You are either impersonating a real GS user or attempting to conceal your real identity.
I consider your comments invalid and artificial.
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Yep. That was a good catch. Hope we can get rid of Mr. Troll.
-GS free for everyone
A choice between
-Publishing under GS with a 25% revenue share
-Publishing app on your own for $300 per app.
$300 may seem like a lot per app but just think about it
If you spend a lot of money on a game, then you take it more seriously. The more serious you take it, the better quality app you make. This will lead to a ton of good quality apps from GS, which will give GS a better reputation which will help out the whole community.
i think we are moving too quickly. Before we move on the GS direct I think we need to start improving our reputation by bringing better quality apps to the app store
I for one have already started doing this by removing every single one of my apps off the app store and starting off all new. I will now be investing a lot of money in my apps and try to bring quality into them regardless of if they sell or not
I still think my model works for all parties involved. If you are a power pusher of apps...doing 10-20 per year...then at $250+$100/app...you are going to cough up $2000+.
If you are a more calculating dev with a smaller number of titles per year...then $250+ 4 or 5 apps at $100 is more swallowable.
$300/title is price gouging since other SDKs allow you to build unlimited titles for that much money. GS will make tons of money (over time) with the model I have put forward...if their software can compete with other SDKs.
Gendai would be in a much better position if they spent half the time people like you did planning out their next business move. XD
This relates to ALL gamesalad developers, not only serious ones
A lot of GS users were/are making a 1 day game challenge, or throwing together a simple game in 2 hours. While some of these may actually be considered good, a lot of them suck too. If you were charged $300 per app, no way would you dare submit 24 hours after starting the project.
It will push people to work harder on their games, and then we'll see more games like bumps coming from GS
This will strengthen GS's rep., and it could then attract more people to come and use the software to build their own apps.
While your reasoning may be quite sound, it also means that people will take less risks with their games, and therefore innovation will be stifled.
Cheers,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Its too much.
$100 is enough to make you think twice about self-publishing. If you want to compile taptards or just "play" with GS...the GSDirect Publishing option is still there.
For new users and non-programmers...GS Direct is the best solution.
But the option 2 availability priced in line with the market gives indie devs their independence at a fair price...that's not too much to swallow but enough to keep the non-serious devs from using it and supporting the publishing model.
Then GS makes money from every app published with their software as they desire...not just on every user. Its a win-win scenario from every angle that I can tell and I think they would make MORE money with my model over 3 years then the one they are planning to institute.
Its a scalable, publishing driven system that could be fully automated and be all-inclusive...and democratic as they suggest...not authoritarian as it actually is presently.
DEMOCRACY == FREEDOM OF CHOICE
The publishing model they are proposing is NOT democratic...mine is and if they were to institute it or something like it...many devs would return quickly and the software's user base will grow rapidly.
More users == more apps produced == more $$$ for GS.
Remove the independence == less pro users == lower quality apps == decline of brand relevance == death of GS.
Stop taking this personally and read what I wrote.
The only solution presented by the community so far was "Bring back the old system".
NO ONE has presented a hybrid system that satisfies both Gendai's desires of charging on volume and not on user counts.
My model meshes both systems into something different that has not been proposed. And the reason I say its the only one that will work was to not hurt your tender feelings but to suggest that It validates the publishing model GS seems to be stuck on implementing and allow devs to retain independence within that new model for an upfront price that is scalable and app count driven.
I've read damn near every post on here on the topic and NOBODY has suggested this model that I can find. Every other suggestion has been a rehash or small adjustment to the old model...which GS has made perfectly clear is being removed.
This solution is unique and new and could be implemented into the new system will little modification. They aren't going back to the old model or bringing back a $2000 pro option. That is clear.
If they don't institute this model (or something very similar to it)...in lieu of the strict all or nothing publishing model they are planning to institute...then FMG and 2/3 or the other devs around here are leaving for good...not just threatening to leave. They will leave.
This wasn't an attack on your ideas...stop trying to make it an attack. Its a constructive solution that fits the needs of everyone...and its the only one that I have seen proposed that actually could work financially for GS and for the devs alike.
My apologies to you if you felt I was egotistical. Perhaps you should consider that I am trying to get GS's attention (not forking the community in the ribs) on all of our behalves to take SERIOUS consideration of my proposal as I think it could possibly work well.
I do not know their internal numbers of dev counts and volume of apps but apparently they are below their expectations...which is why they made such a drastic fundamental shift.
Its clear with this move that they do not have the dev counts they need to support their product on licensing alone...which is why they are chasing volume. My proposal takes the focus off of download counts and on to app title counts. It is still a volume model but no one has proposed a solution based on title counts. Every proposal from the community has been a mixed bag or different ratio of download counts vs. user counts.
Title count licensing could be profitable for GS. And instituting a publishing option that allows for independence (at a tax) but still using their proposed model to attract increased user counts...thus generating more title counts could prove to be a successful model all around.
Its a win-win. Its not about my ego vs. your ego...its a brand NEW idea that is actually pretty good and fair and if implemented...would stop the exodus.
Ansca is over there buying beers and handing out new customer discounts by the truckload (I've gotten 3 this week and we already bought the license 2 months ago). If they (GS) want the bleeding to stop...they have to try something different than what they are planning...and my model could be the compromise that works.
So excuse me if it sounds egotistical...because its not...its about bringing viability to a business model that is in line with demands and expectation of their customers (like you) and the goals of their internal finances (which we don't know...but I suspect needs a boost).
This model could satisfy their thirst for cash and still allow you and me to play with GS in a fiscal environment that promotes individuality and allows ALL OF US (GS included) to profit from that collective success.
I really love this powerful tool and I would love to continue using it - and I would be willing to pay for it! Please keep up the PRO option.
New users will have the GS Direct.
More experienced users and companies will have GS pro.
You will have money from selling games through GS Direct and from pro memberships.
Needs answers
Gs gonna do what they want anyway
so I'm afraid they want to force old users to use the gs direct, they will not provide any updates for us!
I think it's a very fair price, and the additional $250 per year is also.
At any rate, we can all agree that they MUST offer the option for users, especially PRO users the ability to upload apps to their own account.
We shouldn't be forced into publishing with them.
We weren't making enough with the old system. We can't go back, just no way to keep this afloat (or make enough profit for it to be worth anyone's time).
The only choice we could see was to expand into other parts of the business (publishing, marketing) and get more of the revenue cut.
So we're going to offer a better tool, more services and get more money in return.
Some of you will like this, some not. We're thinking it will be relatively fair because the larger chunk of dough will only come from the really successful games and if you make alot you'll probably be happy you did and the improved tool, performance and marketing will probably have been part of you making alot on your app anyways.
It's really not a crazy idea, just poorly communicated.
$99 was too cheap. $1999 was too expensive.
They priced themselves into near oblivion. Now, a bunch of suits came in with big corporate ideas and their $1M briefcase, and messed it up for the rest of us.
Joe/FMG is right. Kill the Express version. Make Pro the only one available. Make the the splash screen customizable with a forced, small GameSalad icon on the bottom-right corner.
Sell it for $399 per year, compete directly with Corona, with the edge of a full GUI. If they really want the GameSalad logo gone, sell it for $499.
If they can get 15,000 subscribers at $399, that will be almost $6M. And they can bank all that, not have to deal with those suits and their wacky ideas of implementing some return on their investment.
According to the COO, they want customers of GS games to connect to other GameSalad games? We already have something similar to that: OpenFeint, Game Center, Plus+, Crystal, etc. We don't need another network within a network, especially if Apple makes it so easy and built-in to their OS for me to see what other Game Center games are out there and what my friends are already playing.