@QS the argument is about priority, but the problem is that each side needs examples as to why it is priority. And I don't like the pro-IAPs examples.
I think it's a really terrible thing when people say "Look at these top tier AAA games developed by professional companies. They all have IAP, therefore, IAP is most important thing eva!"
The problem with this logic is that you ARE NOT Zynga. You are one person who is making a game. And guess what, those AAA social games and MMOs have years of research in human psychology, social behaviors, addiction, micro-economics, and other studies done by many very smart and professional people.
Having in app purchases is not the same as selling in app purchases.
Those games can do so well with IAP because they set up a perfect environment in which the player subconsciously believes that spending additional money inside the game is very important to them.
Like the sous-chefs are saying, start making great games before worry about other things. As my Grandpa always said "You've got to learn to chew gum and walk at the same time before you freebase and base-jump at the same time."
Yah, btw, a lot of the top grossing apps that USE in app purchase aren't even possible in game salad because of how complicated they are. Well at least they seem
Mrshoestore said: The problem with this logic is that you ARE NOT Zynga. You are one person who is making a game. And guess what, those AAA social games and MMOs have years of research in human psychology, social behaviors, addiction, micro-economics, and other studies done by many very smart and professional people.
Not true.
The PocketGems start-up was only formed fall of 2009 and was PROFITABLE AFTER 1 WEEK WITH 1 FREE GAME WITH IAPS.
That same small start-up still has 2 games right now in the top 11 Grossing Games and 40 Million + Downloads, even now it only has 20 staff... and Zynga's a baby in terms of age concerned to say EA.
Never in my mouth did i ever say it will make it better. Im saying that most developers are taking advantage of this and think about it if it wasnt good why would apple invest in adding this to the public?
Were all missing out on the opportunity to actually use this feature, while most devs are using this, i understand that the gs team is working on it. ALL IM SAYIN IS THAT ITS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO BE USED IN ALL GAMES.....
"most devs are using this" Really? I've only got 3 games with iAP out of ca 90 games on my phone.
"THAT ITS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO BE USED IN ALL GAMES" Yes, could probably put it in all your games, but I doubt any one would use it. Games will feel ripped off when they have to pay even more money to play the whole game.
GsProgramming said: Never in my mouth did i ever say it will make it better. Im saying that most developers are taking advantage of this and think about it if it wasnt good why would apple invest in adding this to the public?
Were all missing out on the opportunity to actually use this feature, while most devs are using this, i understand that the gs team is working on it. ALL IM SAYIN IS THAT ITS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO BE USED IN ALL GAMES.....
If you want all the features now, then learn how to code. GS has been giving us a lot of things, so lets not demand things and just wait.
Hey smart ass I'm talking about the free games , most people wouldnt even use this feature if it was a paid app, and also I don't give a f*** how much your apps have iap, I never asked for your input, THANKS.
JamieOneil said: If you want all the features now, then learn how to code. GS has been giving us a lot of things, so lets not demand things and just wait.
Thats my opinion.
JamieOneil
I completely understand where your coming from, this post was to show people basically the good and the bad of IAPP, and the options its capable of
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
The thing you don't seem to understand is there will be a mass flood of free and paid apps with IAP uploaded the second it becomes available. The reason is people are motivated by greed and they see it as a way to make fast money. IAP is on the roadmap it will get here eventually but there far more important things they need to be working on so you'll just have to wait or go learn to code. You are on the loosing side of this one and the more you demand it the more you look like a greedy kid who could not care at all about providing anything of any quality to your few customers.
If i could ask for one thing in the world to make my game making better it would have to be better memory management,because the slightest thing in GS and your ram usage shoots up,and the memory usage during game play rises and rises can you imagine if that was fixed wow thats all ive got to say,bollocks to your IAPPS and this and that just want it to run smooth then im as happy as a pig in sxxt.
Hey smart ass I'm talking about the free games , most people wouldnt even use this feature if it was a paid app, and also I don't give a f*** how much your apps have iap, I never asked for your input, THANKS.
Wow, no need to overreact! This is an public forum. Everyone has a right to give their opinion.
The big minus with iAP in free apps is that you loose a lot of exposure that you otherwise would get with sales and free for a limited time. An free (lite with iAP) app is always free. So once you're off the charts, there no way back.
gamedivisionuk said: If i could ask for one thing in the world to make my game making better it would have to be better memory management,because the slightest thing in GS and your ram usage shoots up,and the memory usage during game play rises and rises can you imagine if that was fixed wow thats all ive got to say,bollocks to your IAPPS and this and that just want it to run smooth then im as happy as a pig in sxxt.
I 100% agree with that. I think IAP is something that we can wait for. Right now, we want features that make the game better, like polygon collisions, it will make our apps so much more accurate with collisions.
Seems everyone thinks different about this. But we all know there is no point in having IAP in an app that might not run smooth.
Cardinal said: What's wrong with you people? Can't you just shut your f***ing mouths and consentrate on creating better games. When the feauture will be ready we will get it.
tenrdrmer said: You are on the loosing side of this one and the more you demand it the more you look like a greedy kid who could not care at all about providing anything of any quality to your few customers.
This is what I pointed out earlier. I just don't see how demanding it make look like you don't care about providing anything of quality to your costumers.
Successful GS users who have give pure quality to their costumers like for example MagoNicolas, ask for this here in this same forum and Iam sure he don't look like that. Wow, Mago even gave us a gift with that amazing zombie template, that was pure quality at best. So mago doesnt look like that but this kid does when asking for the same?
I am sorry but I just don't get it... it looks bad in my eyes. More like a persecution... I am just disappointed, thats all...
- 70% of the 10 top grossing apps are free with inapp sales
- 50% of the top 100 are free with inapp sales
This business model is here to stay. Despite personal opinions, consumers have embraced it. You may not consider it a design tool, but inapp is a powerful tool to build your business. Ultimately you need to be able to generate revenue in order to build great games (as a full time career/business).
Just my 2 cents.
I do agree, where games are concerned, building a great product is crucial to achieving sustained success and must be the number one priority. However, it's been my experience that in order to be successful you need to embrace all aspects of the business.
If we use them for our next game then it will be made with that in mind from the start. Not tacked on at the end.
I've heard from a few indie devs the same story. That they released a game as paid. Then after a while, when it hadn't done as well as they wanted, or just as an experiment - they went to free. Not meaning for it to be permanent. But then with iap they end up making more revenue compared to when the game was paid. So they stay that way.
Either way if your game is rubbish it won't matter how you try and monetise it.
But I definitely welcome that GS are implementing it.
FACT: 75% OF DEVS POLLED (SO FAR) WANT IAP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. It doesn't matter what a few individual devs or sous chefs say. The majority of this community does...
This is my last post on this matter. I've already pointed out the stats (see my earlier posts on this thread) which clearly show IAP is a very successful revenue model. More revenue means more future resources, which WILL improve your games. The main reason there are a lot of poor GS games released is because devs don't have either enough time (because perhaps they have real jobs), or can't afford decent software or can't afford art or can't afford to learn GS or can't afford pro licence etc etc.
Also I don't want to be disrespectful to some of the community but nobody who has contributed to this post has had any real success (50k+ paid downloads) on the App store. I haven't either. The most impressive App created by GS was Secret of Grisly Manor and even firemaplegames left us to go and remake it elsewhere, because of frustrations with the GS team. Also FireMaple's next Game 'The Lost City' WILL also have In-App Purchasing.. Maybe he's mad too?
I love the GameSalad community, I don't like how we've started arguing and we're all entitled to our own opinions which I respect. IAP will never make a bad game a good one, but that was never the question. The GS team understand how important IAP to us independant developers is and that's why its on the roadmap. 75% of us can't wait for this feature....
Also I don't want to be disrespectful to some of the community but nobody who has contributed to this post has had any real success (50k+ paid downloads) on the App store. I haven't either. The most impressive App created by GS was Secret of Grisly Manor and even firemaplegames left us to go and remake it elsewhere, because of frustrations with the GS team. Also FireMaple's next Game 'The Lost City' WILL also have In-App Purchasing.. Maybe he's mad too?
I'm glad you brought Joe up. He made Grisly Manor in GameSalad. Without IAP. I don't know why you're bringing him up as reason *for* IAP, when the most successful game ever made with GameSalad didn't even have them!
As to Lost City having IAP - well, yes, it does. It's one IAP - a walkthrough for the game. His game will NOT be free, and will not rely on IAP.
Additionally, Corona already has facebook/twitter, arrays and tables, achievements, custom fonts etc etc. These are features we are still waiting for. Once we have them, please, use IAPs - but don't tell me that because Joe uses them it somehow justifies your argument.
It in fact does the entire opposite.
As to your 75% want IAP - I'm sure the same 75% all thought iAds was their saviour too.
quantumsheep said: I'm glad you brought Joe up. He made Grisly Manor in GameSalad. Without IAP. I don't know why you're bringing him up as reason *for* IAP, when the most successful game ever made with GameSalad didn't even have them!
As to Lost City having IAP - well, yes, it does. It's one IAP - a walkthrough for the game. His game will NOT be free, and will not rely on IAP.
Additionally, Corona already has facebook/twitter, arrays and tables, achievements, custom fonts etc etc. These are features we are still waiting for. Once we have them, please, use IAPs - but don't tell me that because Joe uses them it somehow justifies your argument.
It in fact does the entire opposite.
As to your 75% want IAP - I'm sure the same 75% all thought iAds was their saviour too.
This thread has gotten way out of hand.. people are getting angry and they are attacking each other, maybe it needs to be closed and we'll get IAP when we'll get em'
tenrdrmerMember, Sous Chef, Senior Sous-ChefPosts: 9,934
steve86 said: This thread has gotten way out of hand.. people are getting angry and they are attacking each other, maybe it needs to be closed and we'll get IAP when we'll get em'
Agreed. Unfortunately closing wil just mean another one opens in a week or so. So guys dial it down a notch. I will do the same. Otherwise its Closing time for IAP Wants.
Really? Way out of hand? People are arguing, expressing their opinions on a subject, and being standoff-ish to differing opinions. Welcome to human nature 101! There hasn't been much name calling, or people waving their junk at each other.
Argument is a great thing. By expressing viewpoints we can see real people behind the usernames, passionate about something.
We start to see groups forming with their own ideas of a means to success.
Some think that revenue leads to more input in a game, allowing to create better games. Others are on a pure artistic and creative stance, that more originality leads to better games which leads to more revenue.
The fighting is good, because it fuels passion in game dev in general, and let's people see multiple sides to the same coin. Everyone is out for the same thing, success. But the definition of success varies, and it's interesting to see how so.
In summary, IAP sucks! Miami Heat sucks! Let's go Cleveland Indians!! Woo!
And if anyone actually does become multi- millionaires because GS added IAP, then I will formally apologizes for not believing in it. Then you can formally accept my apology by buying me one of these
Mrshoestore said: And if anyone actually does become multi- millionaires because GS added IAP, then I will formally apologizes for not believing in it. Then you can formally accept my apology by buying me one of these
quantumsheep said: I'm glad you brought Joe up. He made Grisly Manor in GameSalad. Without IAP. I don't know why you're bringing him up as reason *for* IAP, when the most successful game ever made with GameSalad didn't even have them! As to Lost City having IAP - well, yes, it does. It's one IAP - a walkthrough for the game. His game will NOT be free, and will not rely on IAP.
...if IAP is bad for games why is Joe putting it in his next game? If IAP does not improve games why would he risk it? Are you saying he's greedy? No ... I'll tell you why, its because IAP DOES work. Its a successful revenue stream. Joe is a successful developer. And nobody said every game with IAP has to be a free download, you can still have paid games with IAP.
AddictiveGames said: The most impressive App created by GS was Secret of Grisly Manor and even firemaplegames left us to go and remake it elsewhere, because of frustrations with the GS team. Also FireMaple's next Game 'The Lost City' WILL also have In-App Purchasing.. Maybe he's mad too?
I have actually changed my mind about having an in-app purchase in my new game. My initial thought was to offer a hint guide/walkthrough as an in-app purchase for .99 cents. Totally not critical to completing the game, but if people get stuck they can purchase it.
I have since changed my mind though. Today's players are a little different than when I was a kid. I can absolutely foresee a ton of emails and bad reviews from customers complaining that they are getting ripped off. Why should we have to pay for hints? They should be built into the game! It's terrible that the developer is charging for something that is necessary to win! etc., etc...
So the hint guide and walkthrough will be free. And it isn't because I am completely altruistic. Happy customers are more important to me than a few extra dollars here and there. And I actually believe that serving my loyal players will be more profitable than IAP ever will be. I want these people to play my games for years to come. And I want them to have such a positive experience that they tell everyone they know.
But that is just my opinion.
I hope GameSalad implements every iOS feature there is. iAds, GameCenter, IAP and everything else available. The App Store is very competitive, and it's great to be able to compete against the larger companies on an even playing field.
Using any of these middleware solutions, whether it be GameSalad, Corona, Unity, Flash, Unreal Development Kit, GameMaker, Torque, etc, etc, etc, requires that you to wait for them to implement things. It is the price you pay for their ease of use. Totally worth it in my opinion, as they let you focus on the gameplay and not the difficult low-level stuff.
I would argue that most of the top ten games are currently simply not possible with GameSalad. More important than IAP to me are things like eliminating loading times, better memory management, tables and arrays to be able to create complex, deep gameplay, access to the system clock, multiplayer, etc. All of the top ten games have all those things as well - and I would argue that they are more important to their success.
They also all have impeccable presentation. Perfect artwork, sound effects, music. Perfect programming. Lots of love and life poured into every aspect of the game. And in my opinion, that trumps EVERYTHING else.
And that is something you have complete control over.
So while we all wait for new features to become accessible, let's make games that are as beautiful, perfect and fun as possible with what we have at our disposal!
Comments
I think it's a really terrible thing when people say "Look at these top tier AAA games developed by professional companies. They all have IAP, therefore, IAP is most important thing eva!"
The problem with this logic is that you ARE NOT Zynga. You are one person who is making a game. And guess what, those AAA social games and MMOs have years of research in human psychology, social behaviors, addiction, micro-economics, and other studies done by many very smart and professional people.
Having in app purchases is not the same as selling in app purchases.
Those games can do so well with IAP because they set up a perfect environment in which the player subconsciously believes that spending additional money inside the game is very important to them.
Like the sous-chefs are saying, start making great games before worry about other things.
As my Grandpa always said "You've got to learn to chew gum and walk at the same time before you freebase and base-jump at the same time."
The PocketGems start-up was only formed fall of 2009 and was PROFITABLE AFTER 1 WEEK WITH 1 FREE GAME WITH IAPS.
That same small start-up still has 2 games right now in the top 11 Grossing Games and 40 Million + Downloads, even now it only has 20 staff... and Zynga's a baby in terms of age concerned to say EA.
Things that make the app BETTER.
IAP is good, but it won't make an app better.
Were all missing out on the opportunity to actually use this feature, while most devs are using this, i understand that the gs team is working on it. ALL IM SAYIN IS THAT ITS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO BE USED IN ALL GAMES.....
Really? I've only got 3 games with iAP out of ca 90 games on my phone.
"THAT ITS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO BE USED IN ALL GAMES"
Yes, could probably put it in all your games, but I doubt any one would use it. Games will feel ripped off when they have to pay even more money to play the whole game.
GS has been giving us a lot of things, so lets not demand things and just wait.
Thats my opinion.
JamieOneil
Hey smart ass I'm talking about the free games , most people wouldnt even use this feature if it was a paid app, and also I don't give a f*** how much your apps have iap, I never asked for your input,
THANKS.
The big minus with iAP in free apps is that you loose a lot of exposure that you otherwise would get with sales and free for a limited time. An free (lite with iAP) app is always free. So once you're off the charts, there no way back.
I think IAP is something that we can wait for. Right now, we want features that make the game better, like polygon collisions, it will make our apps so much more accurate with collisions.
Seems everyone thinks different about this. But we all know there is no point in having IAP in an app that might not run smooth.
J.O
Successful GS users who have give pure quality to their costumers like for example MagoNicolas, ask for this here in this same forum and Iam sure he don't look like that.
Wow, Mago even gave us a gift with that amazing zombie template, that was pure quality at best. So mago doesnt look like that but this kid does when asking for the same?
I am sorry but I just don't get it... it looks bad in my eyes. More like a persecution...
I am just disappointed, thats all...
- 70% of the 10 top grossing apps are free with inapp sales
- 50% of the top 100 are free with inapp sales
This business model is here to stay. Despite personal opinions, consumers have embraced it. You may not consider it a design tool, but inapp is a powerful tool to build your business. Ultimately you need to be able to generate revenue in order to build great games (as a full time career/business).
Just my 2 cents.
I do agree, where games are concerned, building a great product is crucial to achieving sustained success and must be the number one priority. However, it's been my experience that in order to be successful you need to embrace all aspects of the business.
If we use them for our next game then it will be made with that in mind from the start. Not tacked on at the end.
I've heard from a few indie devs the same story. That they released a game as paid. Then after a while, when it hadn't done as well as they wanted, or just as an experiment - they went to free. Not meaning for it to be permanent. But then with iap they end up making more revenue compared to when the game was paid. So they stay that way.
Either way if your game is rubbish it won't matter how you try and monetise it.
But I definitely welcome that GS are implementing it.
It doesn't matter what a few individual devs or sous chefs say. The majority of this community does...
This is my last post on this matter. I've already pointed out the stats (see my earlier posts on this thread) which clearly show IAP is a very successful revenue model. More revenue means more future resources, which WILL improve your games. The main reason there are a lot of poor GS games released is because devs don't have either enough time (because perhaps they have real jobs), or can't afford decent software or can't afford art or can't afford to learn GS or can't afford pro licence etc etc.
Also I don't want to be disrespectful to some of the community but nobody who has contributed to this post has had any real success (50k+ paid downloads) on the App store. I haven't either. The most impressive App created by GS was Secret of Grisly Manor and even firemaplegames left us to go and remake it elsewhere, because of frustrations with the GS team. Also FireMaple's next Game 'The Lost City' WILL also have In-App Purchasing.. Maybe he's mad too?
I love the GameSalad community, I don't like how we've started arguing and we're all entitled to our own opinions which I respect. IAP will never make a bad game a good one, but that was never the question. The GS team understand how important IAP to us independant developers is and that's why its on the roadmap. 75% of us can't wait for this feature....
:-)
As to Lost City having IAP - well, yes, it does. It's one IAP - a walkthrough for the game. His game will NOT be free, and will not rely on IAP.
Additionally, Corona already has facebook/twitter, arrays and tables, achievements, custom fonts etc etc. These are features we are still waiting for. Once we have them, please, use IAPs - but don't tell me that because Joe uses them it somehow justifies your argument.
It in fact does the entire opposite.
As to your 75% want IAP - I'm sure the same 75% all thought iAds was their saviour too.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Argument is a great thing. By expressing viewpoints we can see real people behind the usernames, passionate about something.
We start to see groups forming with their own ideas of a means to success.
Some think that revenue leads to more input in a game, allowing to create better games.
Others are on a pure artistic and creative stance, that more originality leads to better games which leads to more revenue.
The fighting is good, because it fuels passion in game dev in general, and let's people see multiple sides to the same coin. Everyone is out for the same thing, success. But the definition of success varies, and it's interesting to see how so.
In summary, IAP sucks! Miami Heat sucks! Let's go Cleveland Indians!! Woo!
60% of the time, it works every time.
http://www.bornrich.com/entry/goldstriker-s-gold-ipad-supreme-cashes-in-on-the-ipad-rage/
kthanks
http://www.adrants.com/images/delorean.jpg
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
And therefore the GS team are wasting their time on IAP?
Nice man - coming from a Sous Chef too ...keep up the good work mate!
Keep burying your head in the sand ....
I have since changed my mind though. Today's players are a little different than when I was a kid. I can absolutely foresee a ton of emails and bad reviews from customers complaining that they are getting ripped off. Why should we have to pay for hints? They should be built into the game! It's terrible that the developer is charging for something that is necessary to win! etc., etc...
So the hint guide and walkthrough will be free. And it isn't because I am completely altruistic. Happy customers are more important to me than a few extra dollars here and there. And I actually believe that serving my loyal players will be more profitable than IAP ever will be. I want these people to play my games for years to come. And I want them to have such a positive experience that they tell everyone they know.
But that is just my opinion.
I hope GameSalad implements every iOS feature there is. iAds, GameCenter, IAP and everything else available. The App Store is very competitive, and it's great to be able to compete against the larger companies on an even playing field.
Using any of these middleware solutions, whether it be GameSalad, Corona, Unity, Flash, Unreal Development Kit, GameMaker, Torque, etc, etc, etc, requires that you to wait for them to implement things. It is the price you pay for their ease of use. Totally worth it in my opinion, as they let you focus on the gameplay and not the difficult low-level stuff.
I would argue that most of the top ten games are currently simply not possible with GameSalad. More important than IAP to me are things like eliminating loading times, better memory management, tables and arrays to be able to create complex, deep gameplay, access to the system clock, multiplayer, etc. All of the top ten games have all those things as well - and I would argue that they are more important to their success.
They also all have impeccable presentation. Perfect artwork, sound effects, music. Perfect programming. Lots of love and life poured into every aspect of the game. And in my opinion, that trumps EVERYTHING else.
And that is something you have complete control over.
So while we all wait for new features to become accessible, let's make games that are as beautiful, perfect and fun as possible with what we have at our disposal!