AddictiveGames said: ...if IAP is bad for games why is Joe putting it in his next game? If IAP does not improve games why would he risk it? Are you saying he's greedy? No ... I'll tell you why, its because IAP DOES work. Its a successful revenue stream. Joe is a successful developer. And nobody said every game with IAP has to be a free download, you can still have paid games with IAP.
You are misunderstanding me. You suggested that we should use Joe's game, Grisly Manor as a yardstick for success.
I said that he'd made it, and been successful with it, *without* IAP's.
Why is it hard to understand?
You seem to suggest that we'd all fail without IAPs. I personally do not like them. They have their place for sure. What I'm saying, if you read a little more carefully and calmed down a little, is that The Lost City has IAPs *on top* of other features that we would like - such as arrays and tables.
What YOU are suggesting is that we forgo these features and skip straight to IAPs. Which I think is a mistake.
So QS ... your implying 75% of this community are idiots? And therefore the GS team are wasting their time on IAP?
Nice man - coming from a Sous Chef too ...keep up the good work mate!
No, those are your words not mine.
The majority of people here are well balanced individuals who can argue a point without being antagonistic. They all have their priorities, and features they'd like to see sooner than others, and can present their arguments quite effectively.
I am simply stating the facts. People were *screaming* for iAds, absolutely sure, just as you are with IAPs, that they would be more successful with them.
This did not turn out to be the case for the majority.
As to your thinly veiled slur upon my character, I think people here know me well enough to dismiss it as the poppycock it is. Believe me, it's not me coming off worse for wear when you try and attack me like that.
Hope you don't mind me bringing you into this discussion BUT i do feel IAP feature as a revenue stream is a great opportunity for us indie devs. A lot of devs on here make less than a few dollars per day and have no way of paying for art/better software or can spare time because of money worries. More revenue = more resources = hopefully better next game.
Also at the time I wrote this I wasn't to know you had changed your mind. However I stand by the stats. I also will be very surprised if I see QS or some of the others above implement IAP in the future as they obviously don't see any point in this feature...
One final note and my final stats on the unfair comparison between iAds and IAP. Zynga yesterday posted their profits which showed 95% of revenue is from virtual purchases compared to less than 5% in Advertising. This should help show the different between the IAP economy and Game Ads economy.
Also at the time I wrote this I wasn't to know you had changed your mind. However I stand by the stats. I also will be very surprised if I see QS or some of the others above implement IAP in the future as they obviously don't see any point in this feature...
Again you're misrepresenting what I said to fit your agenda it seems. I may put IAPs into my games in future - I just don't see it as a priority.
I'd rather see new features that helped me make a better game first.
Having said that, unless I can think of some imaginative/fair way to use IAPs, I probably *won't* be using them.
The GS team had suggested some alternative monetisation streams to me - all of which just sounded horrible to me, and I declined to be part of it.
I'd personally rather do what Joe did - try for success the old fashioned way by trying to please the people that matter most - i.e. the customer.
The problem is the correlation you are making. You seem to be stating that these top of the chart Apps are there Because they have IAP. And the IAP is what's making them successful.
That's equivalent to saying that the Top selling Cars all have GPS/OnStar built into them, so that must mean that the car's selling point is the fact that it has GPS/OnStar.
What about the rest of the car? Does it's other features not matter?
This is the point QS is trying to make, that Although IAP is an important feature in iOS game development, it is not necessarily the Most important.
We aren't going to be upset that IAP exists in GS, but there are soooo many other important features and tools that need to be implemented to build a better game at a basic level.
IAP may be important in iOS gaming today... but it may not be tomorrow...
10% = millions of potential buyers gone. Having in-app purchases will bring you back all those potential buyers since jailbroken devices can not get IAP for free.
quantumsheep said: I'm glad you brought Joe up. He made Grisly Manor in GameSalad. Without IAP. I don't know why you're bringing him up as reason *for* IAP, when the most successful game ever made with GameSalad didn't even have them!
As to Lost City having IAP - well, yes, it does. It's one IAP - a walkthrough for the game. His game will NOT be free, and will not rely on IAP.
Additionally, Corona already has facebook/twitter, arrays and tables, achievements, custom fonts etc etc. These are features we are still waiting for. Once we have them, please, use IAPs - but don't tell me that because Joe uses them it somehow justifies your argument.
It in fact does the entire opposite.
As to your 75% want IAP - I'm sure the same 75% all thought iAds was their saviour too.
QS
QS, you said that the most successful game made by GS didn't even have them, IAP is not even here!
I really like IAP to be one of the GS features, and as I said b4, that the best thing I want it to be here.
As a former-ish pirate, I 100% disagree that IAP brings back those people as potential buyers. They Jailbreak their phone for a reason, to not pay for stuff. Why would they care to all of a sudden start paying for stuff in an indie game? Why wouldn't they just move along to one of the other 500000 apps in the store?
Those that jailbreak their phone for other reasons then piracy (which there are) are already and have always been part of your market. It's not about the phone being jailbroken, it's about the owner of the phone and their mindset towards app purchasing
Also, do you have a date for that estimation? Early adopters for Tech tend to be the most likely to jailbreak, while the late-comers and people following trends tend not to. I'm just curious as to how old that estimation is.
calvin9403 said: QS, you said that the most successful game made by GS didn't even have them, IAP is not even here!
I really like IAP to be one of the GS features, and as I said b4, that the best thing I want it to be here.
I see what you're saying - Grisly is the best selling GS game *thus far*.
Please do read FMG's post again. The part about perfect art/gameplay/sound/presentation etc etc.
Unless your game is firing on all cylinders in those departments, I honestly don't think IAPs will help you I'm afraid!
What you'll get, instead, is a bunch of GS games that don't sell right now, upgraded to free with IAPs, and people's expectations running sky high.
Followed a week later by multiple 'My game's free, but not getting any downloads' threads.
I just think people should focus on getting their games *right* first - me included! - before we get into IAPs.
BTW - Once we get IAPs (and let's not forget, they *are* on the roadmap so they *are* coming), I predict the next thing our games will be missing is multiplayer.
I think IAP is a much better way to create a LITE/Full version of a game. Hopefully that method will de-clutter the App Store a little.
But I am absolutely bewildered by the way people buy Smurfberries, or prize-winning zucchinis, or new shirts and hats for their avatars. I honestly cannot believe that people actually pay real money for that stuff.
It does make more sense to me than people clicking on ads, but just barely ;0)
Plus, Zynga used to make online poker games. Like was mentioned previously, they are experts in behavioral mathematics, compulsion loops, etc. The same things casinos use to addict people.
AddictiveGames said: A lot of devs on here make less than a few dollars per day and have no way of paying for art/better software or can spare time because of money worries. More revenue = more resources = hopefully better next game.
Unfortunately that is the stark reality of the App Store. You are competing with companies with very deep pockets. But you have the advantage of not having the overhead that they do. In any case, your art must be fantastic, your audio and programming too. If your game is similar to other games, make sure yours is better in all aspects. Ask why a customer would buy your game versus a competitor's game.
A few sales a day is fine. You need to start somewhere. But the trick is to have those few customers tell a few more people, and so on. You want those few people to be begging for more! If they aren't, you need to honestly ask yourself why.
If money and resources is an issue, then maybe ask your family for money. Or maybe take out a business loan. Or work a part-time job and save up. There's just no way around it. If your game is something you love and totally believe in, you'll find a way.If it's just a small quick game to try and make some cash - people will see that coming from a mile away. Just like you would. Releasing sub-par games in an attempt to make money to release better games just sullies your reputation in my opinion.
As a former-ish pirate, I 100% disagree that IAP brings back those people as potential buyers. They Jailbreak their phone for a reason, to not pay for stuff. Why would they care to all of a sudden start paying for stuff in an indie game? Why wouldn't they just move along to one of the other 500000 apps in the store?
Those that jailbreak their phone for other reasons then piracy (which there are) are already and have always been part of your market. It's not about the phone being jailbroken, it's about the owner of the phone and their mindset towards app purchasing
Also, do you have a date for that estimation? Early adopters for Tech tend to be the most likely to jailbreak, while the late-comers and people following trends tend not to. I'm just curious as to how old that estimation is.
Yes i agree that most of these people dont wont to pay for apps, who would want to pay for apps if you dont have to. I do not have a hacked ipod, but i buy very very few paid apps. I am currently addicted to an rpg called inotia 2 which is a free app supported by apps and iap and although im very cheap i am still planning on getting a few upgrades via iap. and really arent cheap people and hackers the same people?
@QS You make a valid point that IAPs will not make a mediocre game sell like a great game. I think it's especially dangerous if you are adding IAPs to your game just because you have the ability too.
With that said, I do think there are game mechanics that are built around IAPs; Smurf Village, Tiny Zoo, Zombie Farm, etc. As a developer that type of game may not appeal to you, but some folks here want to build those kinds of apps.
I know I'm stating the obvious, but I think it boils down to personal priority.
I believe there is significant revenue potential with IAPs, that's my opinion based on 2+ years of app development. I've built my fair share of apps (good and bad). I've had well over a million free downloads and earned well over 50k on paid apps. For me, this feature is huge.
ExplosiveApps said: and really arent cheap people and hackers the same people?
ehh... yes and no. I would say some are cheap, some do it just because they can, and some do it out of principle. It's that last group you have to worry about, because if they decide to find a way around IAP, they will. Kind of like the whole DRM thing, or even keygens for that matter.
What worries me about Developers using IAP as a deterrent for piracy is that I think it will only have an effect for so long, and while this is happening you actually alienate your own audience and fan-base by putting up so much effort in deterring piracy that it makes their experience less enjoyable.
And I've bought a few apps from people around here to support them. Kind of like how I buy vinyls of bands I like. And I've bought as many sega system games as I can as a collection. But digital distribution lacks something very important to me, tangibility. I think without getting something tangible in return, the buyer has to be really supportive of the creator.
skotleach said: @QS You make a valid point that IAPs will not make a mediocre game sell like a great game. I think it's especially dangerous if you are adding IAPs to your game just because you have the ability too.
With that said, I do think there are game mechanics that are built around IAPs; Smurf Village, Tiny Zoo, Zombie Farm, etc. As a developer that type of game may not appeal to you, but some folks here want to build those kinds of apps.
Unfortunately, I've not played the games you mention! From what I can see though, there are features missing in GS that would help in the creation of games such as these - e.g. Arrays/tables, sprites, memory management, image flipping and access to the device clock.
I may be wrong - like I said, I've not played these games - but these kinds of 'Sim' games (am I right?) rely on features such as those mentioned.
Without them, and without at least small sized teams to create shedloads of content, I don't see how, even if people *wanted* to, they could create games that could compete with the examples you've given.
skotleach said: I know I'm stating the obvious, but I think it boils down to personal priority.
I believe there is significant revenue potential with IAPs, that's my opinion based on 2+ years of app development. I've built my fair share of apps (good and bad). I've had well over a million free downloads and earned well over 50k on paid apps. For me, this feature is huge.
I agree, it's question of personal priority, and mine is to my customers, few as they are. Yours may be too, but in a different way perhaps.
The figures you quote seem impressive, and easily dwarf mine! But then there are people like tshirt, butterbean, gamesmold and yes, Joe at FMG who take different approaches to yours and can hold their own against those figures, and in Joe's case, easily surpass them (in paid downloads at least).
If you're quoting your figures as a vindication of your philosophy and priorities, I can counter it with the examples I gave above
You may see me as delusional. As an old hippy. As a dreamer. Out of touch with reality.
Whatever.
I believe you work hard, you keep your customers happy (first rule of business, surely?) and you reap the rewards.
It took me two years to have a minor hit with Air Supply. It's been a hard slog, but I've enjoyed every moment of it.
Who knows what the future will bring?
But I'm tired. Really tired.
When did producing something good and selling it, and wanting to improve your output, become such a terrible thing?
QS
Edit: Oh, and I hope you're not offended Skot by what i wrote - it wasn't intended to come across like that - my bad if it did. Tired. etc
But I am absolutely bewildered by the way people buy Smurfberries, or prize-winning zucchinis, or new shirts and hats for their avatars. I honestly cannot believe that people actually pay real money for that stuff.
Yeah I can't relate to it either, buying all that in game currency for virtual items. And possibly many people around here can't either. But millions of facebook and iOS user seem to be quite comfortable with it. But perhaps it would be hard to make a style of game that you don't understand.
I think the bigger developers understand how to predict and control behaviour and create the perception of value.
But some iaps are more straightforward - a good game that has some stuff you can unlock if you don't mind paying. Bug Heroes is a good example of that. They post on TA and they seem to be doing well.
@QS I take no offense and I didn't intend to give offense either, If I have I apologize.
The debate was heated and my intention was to point out that individual developers have their personal priorities. I don't suspect you are opposed to Gamesalad adding IAPs, but rather there are more pressing features you would like to see.
The features you point out are high priorities for me as well, but I do believe it's possible to create a game in the vein of Smurfs, Pet Zoo, etc. with the current tool set and IAPs and I believe it can be done as an individual, assuming you have the necessary skill set.
I wasn't stating numbers as a boast. Although reading my post back, I can see that it seems like that may have been my intention. I was simply trying to back up my opinion with some data.
There are clearly many approaches to developing apps and games. I would love to discuss and share my learnings. I'm open and willing to share all the data I've collected over the last several years.
As far as my opinion of you, I don't view you as an aging hippy. I've played Air Supply. I see you as a talented developer. I think you have a tremendous amount of knowledge to share.
To date I've only released one GS game, Droppin' Balls. It launched on April 22'nd and has only earned a little over $8,000 to date, so by no means am I an expert at Gamesalad game development.
I'm here to learn and provide what insight I can. I think it's great to have developers with differing feature priorities.
HaHaHa........... Should we.... shouldnt we. This fact.... that fact. This opinion..... that opinion.
I think the main issue is we all have our opinion on whats most important on the Road Maps "To Do" list. We are all going to agree and disagree on this. I feel what most of us are scared of is that not everything on the Roadmap will ever get done. And what we are scared of "after everything is said and done" is that what we individually want most.... will be left behind on the back burner. So we feel its important to state it here on the forums on how we feel a specific item is more important than another. Hence the...... "thats not important.... this is whats important"
SO that in turn makes someone else scared that if you get what you want.. then that makes my chances of getting what i want .. less.
Just let GS do what GS is going to do. And everytime you feel GS isnt being fair to you or being stupid with their decision making. Take the next few days with a C++ book or a few days trying to learn Corona. Then come back to GS and smile and be happy.
My personal opinion is that Gamesalad needs IAP's but not so much for us, but to entice more of the professional developer community to come to Gamesalad and go pro. Gamesalad is great and it has improved a lot since it began but the truth is, similar types of projects are being created as we speak. Gamesald will have to find the right balance of features to stay ahead of the game and I believe IAP is one of them.
IAP are great revenue stream that add a very viable way of making a great game revenue (or added profit). whether it will not make someone's bad game better or not is not why IAP are needed as a feature. I personally feel that as is, Gamesalad is more then capable of producing great games. If I was new at this (no code development based game engine deal) and there where two platforms out for development I would look at the features. If one had IAP and the other had any of the other future features (but both had the current features Gamesalad has now), I think I would lean towards the one with IAP. My reasoning is that I can always create a great game using what is available to me now, but the potential loss of revenue from a lack of IAP is a minus. The Market has spoken!, and they have told us they think IAP is something that they are OK with and is something that actually they enjoy or feel adds to their game play. As for making great games with what we have now, I think there are many example of creative game makers doing well with what they have. Kojima's Metal Gear is a classic example of an amazing game that was created with sever limitations but was massive amounts of fun (meaning great games can be made with what we have, we just need to be a game genius like Mr. Kojima = ). Again, I do agree IAP will not make a crappy game sell more, but the current limits of Gamesalad are not stopping you from creating a great game either. That said IAP seems to win out for me in this situation, so that Gamesalad stays ahead of the pack.
So what's the next feature we "need" after this one? When hardly nobody buys iAP content, what then? "The AppStore is too crowded! WE NEED Android support!" ?
Just wondering where all the success stories from iAds are.
dhondon said: So what's the next feature we "need" after this one? When hardly nobody buys iAP content, what then? "The AppStore is too crowded! WE NEED Android support!" ?
Just wondering where all the success stories from iAds are.
Not sure if this is meant for me or not, but I tried to make it clear that it's not us who need it, rather it's the good folks at Gamesalad. And as for what's next after this? It's whatever is most important to remain a leader in the field of game engine middleware (at least in the non code section of it).
What I need you ask? I need Gamesald to continue thier great product to be the best so I do not have to retrain anyone on a system that is better. I do my part by voicing my opinion as to what I feel is needed most (something all good companies ask for and few receive). I I just stay quite and not say anything because you consider it whining or crying then the GS team loses out.
BTW, I could be wrong but I think Gamesald would not have forums if they didn't want our feedback.
No, my comment was not directly meant at you. I just think the thread title sounds so whiny. The roadmap suggests that iAP is coming this summer, so why write something like: We need IN APP ASAP. Should they(GS team) drop everything else and focus 100% on this feature because "we" ( "we" suggests that we all agree on this one) need it? I think part of the iAP discussion is interesting, and I see the plus and minuses with the feature. I might even use it myself at some point. Should be renamed to something like: "iAP feature discussion"
@dhondon ah, cool, and yes I agree with you. There are better ways to bring it about and I also agree that people thinking this is a magic bullet are in for a rude awakening. In this thread though many are posting what features (on the roadmap) they want and what's most important. QS for instance made some great and logical posts and I wanted to try and post my take on it. Ultimately I understand that the GS team will do what they feel is best.
Still I just wanted to throw my two cents in for whatever it's worth.
People are always looking for a something else to whinge about, and when iAP finally becomes available, and they're not making enough money, there will be something else they'll *need* to make money.
iAP is NOT the answer to your prayers, and no, money does not grow on trees.
It comes with hard work, passion, dedication, and a love for game making, sprinkled with a little luck.
while we don't need it ASAP, it certainly will help. But according to the roadmap it should be here soon. and let's just cross our fingers and hope for the best. mean while just plan out how you'll want to use it once it rolls out. I think GS will listen to it's users more when people stop complaining for no purpose and offer insightful requests based on a solid strategic plan. After all, if you are successful developers like Firemaple and quantumsheep what you say will carry more weight.
AddictiveGames said: Stats don't lie. 76% of us want this feature. 90% of top grossing 10 USA games yesterday had IAP. Nothing funny about it...
Keep burying your head in the sand ....
Well the only statistic worth a damn is the one related to the poll. Those other statistics you throw around can only be correlated to IAP, you cannot prove the worth of IAP simply by stating "most every top grossing game has IAP" That's only correlation, not causation. We need to start taking lessons in statistics and causation vs correlation.
I could say "every top grossing app has a start menu, therefore start menus are worth while" but that would simply be correlation. It may be true that start menus are worth while, but it doesn't prove that start menus cause better sales. The point is there are a significant amount factors that come into play. IAP is just one of them.
I reckon anyone would be foolish to ignore IAP outright, as it clearly as benefits from a business model stand point, especially when it comes to a free version of the game.
However at this point you have to make a decision. What's more important to you? The business of making games, or the art thereof? For me it's a mixture of both.
Either way, pretending that the estimated statistics you throw around prove your point, weaken your argument from my perspective. I don't think any rational person would argue that IAP is valuable in some way, but the measure of its actual worth is up for debate.
Comments
I said that he'd made it, and been successful with it, *without* IAP's.
Why is it hard to understand?
You seem to suggest that we'd all fail without IAPs. I personally do not like them. They have their place for sure. What I'm saying, if you read a little more carefully and calmed down a little, is that The Lost City has IAPs *on top* of other features that we would like - such as arrays and tables.
What YOU are suggesting is that we forgo these features and skip straight to IAPs. Which I think is a mistake. No, those are your words not mine.
The majority of people here are well balanced individuals who can argue a point without being antagonistic. They all have their priorities, and features they'd like to see sooner than others, and can present their arguments quite effectively.
I am simply stating the facts. People were *screaming* for iAds, absolutely sure, just as you are with IAPs, that they would be more successful with them.
This did not turn out to be the case for the majority.
As to your thinly veiled slur upon my character, I think people here know me well enough to dismiss it as the poppycock it is. Believe me, it's not me coming off worse for wear when you try and attack me like that.
Good luck with that though
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Hope you don't mind me bringing you into this discussion BUT i do feel IAP feature as a revenue stream is a great opportunity for us indie devs. A lot of devs on here make less than a few dollars per day and have no way of paying for art/better software or can spare time because of money worries. More revenue = more resources = hopefully better next game.
Also at the time I wrote this I wasn't to know you had changed your mind. However I stand by the stats. I also will be very surprised if I see QS or some of the others above implement IAP in the future as they obviously don't see any point in this feature...
One final note and my final stats on the unfair comparison between iAds and IAP. Zynga yesterday posted their profits which showed 95% of revenue is from virtual purchases compared to less than 5% in Advertising. This should help show the different between the IAP economy and Game Ads economy.
I say bring on IAP!!! :-)
I'd rather see new features that helped me make a better game first.
Having said that, unless I can think of some imaginative/fair way to use IAPs, I probably *won't* be using them.
The GS team had suggested some alternative monetisation streams to me - all of which just sounded horrible to me, and I declined to be part of it.
I'd personally rather do what Joe did - try for success the old fashioned way by trying to please the people that matter most - i.e. the customer.
But maybe that's just me?
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
The problem is the correlation you are making. You seem to be stating that these top of the chart Apps are there Because they have IAP. And the IAP is what's making them successful.
That's equivalent to saying that the Top selling Cars all have GPS/OnStar built into them, so that must mean that the car's selling point is the fact that it has GPS/OnStar.
What about the rest of the car? Does it's other features not matter?
This is the point QS is trying to make, that Although IAP is an important feature in iOS game development, it is not necessarily the Most important.
We aren't going to be upset that IAP exists in GS, but there are soooo many other important features and tools that need to be implemented to build a better game at a basic level.
IAP may be important in iOS gaming today... but it may not be tomorrow...
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#cite_note-1
10% = millions of potential buyers gone.
Having in-app purchases will bring you back all those potential buyers since jailbroken devices can not get IAP for free.
I really like IAP to be one of the GS features, and as I said b4, that the best thing I want it to be here.
As a former-ish pirate, I 100% disagree that IAP brings back those people as potential buyers. They Jailbreak their phone for a reason, to not pay for stuff. Why would they care to all of a sudden start paying for stuff in an indie game? Why wouldn't they just move along to one of the other 500000 apps in the store?
Those that jailbreak their phone for other reasons then piracy (which there are) are already and have always been part of your market. It's not about the phone being jailbroken, it's about the owner of the phone and their mindset towards app purchasing
Also, do you have a date for that estimation? Early adopters for Tech tend to be the most likely to jailbreak, while the late-comers and people following trends tend not to. I'm just curious as to how old that estimation is.
Please do read FMG's post again. The part about perfect art/gameplay/sound/presentation etc etc.
Unless your game is firing on all cylinders in those departments, I honestly don't think IAPs will help you I'm afraid!
What you'll get, instead, is a bunch of GS games that don't sell right now, upgraded to free with IAPs, and people's expectations running sky high.
Followed a week later by multiple 'My game's free, but not getting any downloads' threads.
I just think people should focus on getting their games *right* first - me included! - before we get into IAPs.
BTW - Once we get IAPs (and let's not forget, they *are* on the roadmap so they *are* coming), I predict the next thing our games will be missing is multiplayer.
I called it first!
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
But I am absolutely bewildered by the way people buy Smurfberries, or prize-winning zucchinis, or new shirts and hats for their avatars. I honestly cannot believe that people actually pay real money for that stuff.
It does make more sense to me than people clicking on ads, but just barely ;0)
Plus, Zynga used to make online poker games. Like was mentioned previously, they are experts in behavioral mathematics, compulsion loops, etc. The same things casinos use to addict people. Unfortunately that is the stark reality of the App Store. You are competing with companies with very deep pockets. But you have the advantage of not having the overhead that they do. In any case, your art must be fantastic, your audio and programming too. If your game is similar to other games, make sure yours is better in all aspects. Ask why a customer would buy your game versus a competitor's game.
A few sales a day is fine. You need to start somewhere. But the trick is to have those few customers tell a few more people, and so on. You want those few people to be begging for more! If they aren't, you need to honestly ask yourself why.
If money and resources is an issue, then maybe ask your family for money. Or maybe take out a business loan. Or work a part-time job and save up. There's just no way around it. If your game is something you love and totally believe in, you'll find a way.If it's just a small quick game to try and make some cash - people will see that coming from a mile away. Just like you would. Releasing sub-par games in an attempt to make money to release better games just sullies your reputation in my opinion.
With that said, I do think there are game mechanics that are built around IAPs; Smurf Village, Tiny Zoo, Zombie Farm, etc. As a developer that type of game may not appeal to you, but some folks here want to build those kinds of apps.
I know I'm stating the obvious, but I think it boils down to personal priority.
I believe there is significant revenue potential with IAPs, that's my opinion based on 2+ years of app development. I've built my fair share of apps (good and bad). I've had well over a million free downloads and earned well over 50k on paid apps. For me, this feature is huge.
What worries me about Developers using IAP as a deterrent for piracy is that I think it will only have an effect for so long, and while this is happening you actually alienate your own audience and fan-base by putting up so much effort in deterring piracy that it makes their experience less enjoyable.
And I've bought a few apps from people around here to support them. Kind of like how I buy vinyls of bands I like. And I've bought as many sega system games as I can as a collection. But digital distribution lacks something very important to me, tangibility. I think without getting something tangible in return, the buyer has to be really supportive of the creator.
I may be wrong - like I said, I've not played these games - but these kinds of 'Sim' games (am I right?) rely on features such as those mentioned.
Without them, and without at least small sized teams to create shedloads of content, I don't see how, even if people *wanted* to, they could create games that could compete with the examples you've given. I agree, it's question of personal priority, and mine is to my customers, few as they are. Yours may be too, but in a different way perhaps.
The figures you quote seem impressive, and easily dwarf mine! But then there are people like tshirt, butterbean, gamesmold and yes, Joe at FMG who take different approaches to yours and can hold their own against those figures, and in Joe's case, easily surpass them (in paid downloads at least).
If you're quoting your figures as a vindication of your philosophy and priorities, I can counter it with the examples I gave above
You may see me as delusional. As an old hippy. As a dreamer. Out of touch with reality.
Whatever.
I believe you work hard, you keep your customers happy (first rule of business, surely?) and you reap the rewards.
It took me two years to have a minor hit with Air Supply. It's been a hard slog, but I've enjoyed every moment of it.
Who knows what the future will bring?
But I'm tired. Really tired.
When did producing something good and selling it, and wanting to improve your output, become such a terrible thing?
QS
Edit: Oh, and I hope you're not offended Skot by what i wrote - it wasn't intended to come across like that - my bad if it did. Tired. etc
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
It *is* a great game though!
QS
I'm the type to look at games like Nidhogg and the Winnitron/BabyCastles moment and think Damn the future is bright.
Then I see games like "Tap Noun" or "Emotional Animal" and think.... poopy.
I think you're right though, that those sim games need those other features in order to make IAP work.
I think the bigger developers understand how to predict and control behaviour and create the perception of value.
But some iaps are more straightforward - a good game that has some stuff you can unlock if you don't mind paying. Bug Heroes is a good example of that. They post on TA and they seem to be doing well.
The debate was heated and my intention was to point out that individual developers have their personal priorities. I don't suspect you are opposed to Gamesalad adding IAPs, but rather there are more pressing features you would like to see.
The features you point out are high priorities for me as well, but I do believe it's possible to create a game in the vein of Smurfs, Pet Zoo, etc. with the current tool set and IAPs and I believe it can be done as an individual, assuming you have the necessary skill set.
I wasn't stating numbers as a boast. Although reading my post back, I can see that it seems like that may have been my intention. I was simply trying to back up my opinion with some data.
There are clearly many approaches to developing apps and games. I would love to discuss and share my learnings. I'm open and willing to share all the data I've collected over the last several years.
As far as my opinion of you, I don't view you as an aging hippy. I've played Air Supply. I see you as a talented developer. I think you have a tremendous amount of knowledge to share.
To date I've only released one GS game, Droppin' Balls. It launched on April 22'nd and has only earned a little over $8,000 to date, so by no means am I an expert at Gamesalad game development.
I'm here to learn and provide what insight I can. I think it's great to have developers with differing feature priorities.
I think the main issue is we all have our opinion on whats most important on the Road Maps "To Do" list. We are all going to agree and disagree on this. I feel what most of us are scared of is that not everything on the Roadmap will ever get done. And what we are scared of "after everything is said and done" is that what we individually want most.... will be left behind on the back burner. So we feel its important to state it here on the forums on how we feel a specific item is more important than another. Hence the...... "thats not important.... this is whats important"
SO that in turn makes someone else scared that if you get what you want.. then that makes my chances of getting what i want .. less.
Just let GS do what GS is going to do. And everytime you feel GS isnt being fair to you or being stupid with their decision making. Take the next few days with a C++ book or a few days trying to learn Corona. Then come back to GS and smile and be happy.
IAP are great revenue stream that add a very viable way of making a great game revenue (or added profit). whether it will not make someone's bad game better or not is not why IAP are needed as a feature. I personally feel that as is, Gamesalad is more then capable of producing great games. If I was new at this (no code development based game engine deal) and there where two platforms out for development I would look at the features. If one had IAP and the other had any of the other future features (but both had the current features Gamesalad has now), I think I would lean towards the one with IAP. My reasoning is that I can always create a great game using what is available to me now, but the potential loss of revenue from a lack of IAP is a minus. The Market has spoken!, and they have told us they think IAP is something that they are OK with and is something that actually they enjoy or feel adds to their game play. As for making great games with what we have now, I think there are many example of creative game makers doing well with what they have. Kojima's Metal Gear is a classic example of an amazing game that was created with sever limitations but was massive amounts of fun (meaning great games can be made with what we have, we just need to be a game genius like Mr. Kojima = ). Again, I do agree IAP will not make a crappy game sell more, but the current limits of Gamesalad are not stopping you from creating a great game either. That said IAP seems to win out for me in this situation, so that Gamesalad stays ahead of the pack.
so just let GS make their creator and see what happen
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Just wondering where all the success stories from iAds are.
What I need you ask? I need Gamesald to continue thier great product to be the best so I do not have to retrain anyone on a system that is better. I do my part by voicing my opinion as to what I feel is needed most (something all good companies ask for and few receive). I I just stay quite and not say anything because you consider it whining or crying then the GS team loses out.
BTW, I could be wrong but I think Gamesald would not have forums if they didn't want our
feedback.
Still I just wanted to throw my two cents in for whatever it's worth.
People are always looking for a something else to whinge about, and when iAP finally becomes available, and they're not making enough money, there will be something else they'll *need* to make money.
iAP is NOT the answer to your prayers, and no, money does not grow on trees.
It comes with hard work, passion, dedication, and a love for game making, sprinkled with a little luck.
Take QS and FMG's advice.
Enough said.
I could say "every top grossing app has a start menu, therefore start menus are worth while" but that would simply be correlation. It may be true that start menus are worth while, but it doesn't prove that start menus cause better sales. The point is there are a significant amount factors that come into play. IAP is just one of them.
I reckon anyone would be foolish to ignore IAP outright, as it clearly as benefits from a business model stand point, especially when it comes to a free version of the game.
However at this point you have to make a decision. What's more important to you? The business of making games, or the art thereof? For me it's a mixture of both.
Either way, pretending that the estimated statistics you throw around prove your point, weaken your argument from my perspective. I don't think any rational person would argue that IAP is valuable in some way, but the measure of its actual worth is up for debate.