@BeyondtheTech: I completely agree with what you are saying. It seems like a very viable method of maintaining a higher standard of quality for our apps.
I do completely disagree with you on one point, however:
"If one knows that they have to recoup that $500 each year, let alone make a profit, they would have to put in a significant amount of effort in their work. Not something that looks like it's done in Microsoft Paint."
Paint is my go to program for any pixel art that I do. In fact many professional pixel-artists still use paint. Don't be hatin' on paint! >:p
Anonymous (Not from GS): "Apple will make no exceptions."
I dread to say he's probably right. A lot of people tell me that they don't like GS games. I tell them to shove it but in a way GS games are slow and simple. I don't think that really bothers me because you lot have made some great games with the GS engine. - Red block remover - Danger cats (I think thats what its called) - Kill the king And the list can go on and on.
I would assume that they believe that the files that GS produces are in an acceptable format, or could fairly easily be modified to adhere to the new rules.
From what I've read online, there seems to be the idea that more information on the subject will be released today, so time will tell.
A buyout from Apple? makes sense, good PR for Apple given the backlash from developers. Wealth indeed. Its a great fit for Apple, one might even say GS was designed for it. Clever indeed.
"3. Declare exclusivity for development to/with Apple products only (Safari, Mac, iPhone/iPod touch, iPad). No Windows version....4.Incress the the price...etc."
No man, please, on any kind of business you to have EVER the possibility of different channels, iphone is a good channel but not the once, as I told just the last week:
Android its the actual opportunity now and not the iphone, because the number of ready app in the android market, less offer for more people, right now you have much visibility than appstore fighting the thousands of apps, maybe "Tweetie" will not see for anybody if its lunched today, different when they lunched, with only a fews app at appstore, the same story for "Trism" and other... I have a friend that was selling about 2000/day apps at the beggining of appstore and now maybe 10/day.
The platform GS does not need to be "exclusive", they have a xml based project .gameproj its a good idea and xml is not banned by the new Apple Agreement, Drag and Drop, easy, All that youguys know. They only need to change de Code Core do native interface IDE for every case, in the iphone's case move into something Objective-C native like Cocos2D that do not have LUA, etc. Just replace the base Code, not the interface, think that they only need to found solution for iphone .app code, not for IDE, only a native iPhone GS runtime that can embed your .gameproj with your xml files and resources.
Lets talk about Android, Nokia, HP Slite, and other, they only need to implement at first similar native runtime or player for each platform, because the rest is only xml. And for later a ports for the IDE too, like windows or linux, but after the runtime.
Cocos2D port for the iphone is 100% Objective-C and maybe a good option for GS to move into this Native Core for their actual iphone runtime.
And the price, please, no, no, I did spend so much money the last by now, 2400 macbook pro, the best, torque, development kits for torque, resources, books, software, the iphone, etc. Just for not having nothing with torque that compile without any problem or take all my iphone memory or with memory leeks, etc. GS is a good opportunity for me to recover the hope and GAMESALAD, PLEASE, MOVE, MOVE AND MOVE, BUT NOW!! AND FOUND A SOLUTION, PLEASE!!!! I believe in "Good Brains"!!!
By other side, Raphael, going alone to suicide its not a good idea, better we can meet all of us in some place like "el cairo" or "Area 59" in order to take a poisoned BEER!!! ; )))P
If something meed to found a new job, please by my app!!!! It can found jobs in 14 countires!!!! Hahaha!! ; ))) http://idealius.com/blog/jobssearch
Just watched the Adobe CS5 launch event and they did mention iphone apps, but just barely. After all the hype for the last number of months, that extreme de-emphasis was the elephant in the room... big time.
@BTT Crap games are made *without* GameSalad every day. To lump it all at GS's door is just wrong. There are 50,000 games available on the app store. How many are good? How many are awful? How many are made with GS?
Surely there are more crap games just made with the apple tools than there are with GS? Should Apple ban their own tools?
There are currently just over 200 GS games available. Some games are included multiple times (lite versions, iPad versions). And as I mentioned, there are 50,000 games on the app store.
So really. How bad a reputation has GS got? A handful of games in the grand scheme of things…
And just because we find some games distasteful, or just plain crap, who are we to judge them? Have you seen some of the rubbish you can find on the app store? In new and noteworthy? In ‘staff picks’?
Some of the best selling apps you could probably make in GS in a week. Maybe less. If this is what people want, then let them have it!
What about people like tshirtbooth? He started out with games that were, by his own admission, crap. Look at him now!
People will always focus on the negative. Play a Tshirt game, a firemaple game - heck - even one of your own games! Good games *can* be made. Why should we stifle that creativity by putting the tool to publish on the iphone out of the reach of people who'd like to give game making a try?
Please, let's stop being elitist about this. What you are suggesting will mean that only those with enough money to invest can publish an iphone game with GS, regardless of the quality of their effort.
Having money to invest/burn will not guarantee quality. Indeed, it may put some people off taking a chance on their dream of having a game on the iPhone. As to your secondary point - how can we convince Apple we're worthy? I think that's a moot point. I don’t think anybody could…
Oh, and please don’t take this as a personal attack or rant against you. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your output, as I hope you know!
As for the agreement we have to 'sign', I think is only if you want to download the iPhone 4.0 SDK. I signed and submitted a new 'craptard' game...hope it gets approve.
also, here's a link to the adobe video: http://cs5launch.adobe.com/?promoid=FDKBR aside from iphone publishing, they're making a lot of things drag and drop and very intuitive to use their products...just like GS.
No offense taken. I don't take any of this personally.
LOL @ TSB's comment.
I really hope there's a light at the end of this tunnel, and it's not the headlight of an oncoming train labeled "Section 3.3.1."
I don't want it to go to 500 posts. I just want something more definitive from Apple and something less cryptic from GameSalad.
Perhaps I should go back to my music lessons and release some songs on iTunes and YouTube, as I'm going to have to go through heaven and hell to understand Objective-C efficiently.
The thing about GameSalad games that you create is that they are not programs. They are more akin to word docs. The .gameproj actually has no code inside of it. It's just data. The game itself is the GameSalad engine. We all use exactly the same engine and we don't add script. Our "code" -- if you look at the XML -- are just references to existing classes as defined by the GameSalad devs. This is why your game can potentially break every time they release a new version of GameSalad. The engine isn't backwards compatible with old data files. It's akin to a new version of Word not being able to open an older file format. Or, not interpreting it correctly.
The only concerning part is that GameSalad uses Lua and Lua isn't one of the approved languages. However, that's something that Gendai is going to have to figure out. It should be pretty strait forward to gut any parts of the engine that are in Lua an replace them with Obj-C.
We don't actually write code.
Seriously, look at the contents of your .gameproj. Where's the code? There isn't any. It's all just XML declarations and resources.
Also, remember that it was Apple that featured GameSalad software early on, on it's own website. That where I found it. I have to think Apple is pretty okay with GS based on that.
My brother's company was one of the few (if not the only) in Italy to get the iPad prior to the launch date thanks to a friend of his boss that has inside contacts with Apple. Since they use a proprietary tool to create apps when Jobs unveiled the 4.0 with the new agreement they immediately asked that contact how they were to manage the situation.
Answer: "Don't worry, it's mostly because of Adobe's Flash-to-AppStore CS5 update that's creating us some really bad performance problems. Other third party compilers should be ok."
On a side note some other guys that said that were in touch with some Apple devs hinted to the fact that all this could be because Apple is developing it's own game creator tool to go alongside xCode final 4.0 build. But this is purely speculative IMO.
I think @lexander's point about not worrying about "brick walls" may come from the fact that GameSalad is pretty much a Mac/iPhone only product. I personally have put no faith in it ever becoming cross-platform as I think it is too tightly integrated with the Mac/iPhone platform/environment. So maybe they are confident knowing that GS games still requires all the Apple pieces of the puzzle to use and produce. I'm fine with GS *not* being cross-platform if it means GS can continue to exist as the tool it is (i.e. an easy to use iPhone/iPad/Touch app creator).
So maybe we will be one of the few that will be good to go. Being featured on the Apple site for "how to make games" is kind of cool too but it is reduced in its consoling properties by the fact that Unity was also featured.
I wish we could get to the end of this issue so we can move on without a clouded/worried head.
Hm. While reading all these lines, I remeber the old days where I used RealBasic to create some Mac programs (2000-2005). It wasn't the best development environment, but even a untalented guy like me learned the language completely within 18 months (in my spare free time). Then I coded 3D board games and even a game server with a friend of mine. After that I looked into C for some weeks. Last year I wrote some very small programs in Objective-C using XCode and Interface Builder. To be honest, there are so many good tutorials, video podcasts and books available for Objective-C, that even someone like me could actually learn this language. It should help that I have some expierience in RealBasic, since that is OOP, too. But to be honest, I was always a guy that had visions and wanted to see these ideas become a virtual reality as soon as possible. Creating straight and proper code, checking the syntax, debugging and learning the necessary math and physics was always kind of a struggle for me. Guys like me need tools like GameSalad. I don't want to bother about syntax, memory management and so on. I want to concentrate on my creativity and let a tool do the part that I'm not good at. That's the only way I can have fun when creating programs. And the only way I can afford it, because my time is limited. I'm happy that I discovered GS some days ago. It would be too sad if Steve would ban it. I'm surely willing to pay a good price for GS if I can use it also in the future to create apps for the iDevices.
Am I the only one putting the last two messages together and having a light bulb go off above their head?
Rumor from Apple Devs: Apple is developing its own game creator tool to coincide with XCode and iPhone OS 4.
Comment by GameSalad: (paraphrased) "While others see brick walls, we see a wealth of opportunities..."
Considering that Gendai has been relatively quiet - 2 posts out of 313 - are they up to something even bigger? And I mean, a LOT bigger? Have we all joined into something that Apple themselves is going to embrace and integrate as part of their own?
Apple has picked up quite a few good companies and their technologies and rolled it into their own over the past few years. There's no doubt that GameSalad is a remarkable engine that's easy to use. If Apple bought GameSalad, this could be big for the team that created it - they really deserve it. And, it could mean we're actually on the winning team for once.
Interesting BTT...purely speculative and probably a dream for Gendai...but doubtful...but who knows.
As for "substandard" apps...I think Apple is talking about substandard Code compiling...not content. They don't care about the content so much...unless it is "not tasteful" or "copyright violating" or "porn". If it just "looks dumb"...they really don't care. They let the market decide if the app is worth purchasing or not.
They are NOT going to ban your app if they "think" it sucks. They are looking to ban apps that "don't comply" with their SDK provisions/APIs.
The fact that TSB found a link to an Apple Blog referencing GameSalad is promising. Which to me says that they are not targeting 3rd Party translators in a general sense. They just want third parties to follow their parameters within their build specifications...so that they will function properly with Apple OS and Device improvements down the road. Flash rejected their specs and built their OWN proprietary compiler...which is completely outside of Apple's SDK environment...and I am sure Apple doesn't like this...thereby making ANY app built with the Flash iPhone compiler "substandard".
@BeyondtheTech - I didn't get that impression from the yellow-box comments that I've seen. Although, it would make sense for Apple to at least encourage Gendai Game. Apple makes money at almost every transaction.
...you pretty much need a Mac for GameSalad ($599+) ...you pretty much need an iPod Touch / iPhone / iPad for testing ($200+) ...you need to be a registered developer ($99) ...you need to give Apple a 30% cut when you sell games on the App Store.
I'm thinking that Gendai Games is rethinking the way they manage stuff. This is a huge opportunity for them. Apple seems to be at war with Adobe Flash. The longer CS5 is clouded in confusion, the more time GameSalad has to improve. You can't just throw a salad together... the vegetables need time to grow.
@Photics: That kinda goes the same for every other engine out there. Granted there will be a CS5 for Windows, but you need Apple every step of the way if you want to publish an app.
Again... I still think its all about forcing compliance to the standards preset by Apple. Compliance is pre-forced when you develop natively in the SDK environment. But when you introduce a translator...then things can run astray.
I think Apple is simply getting tough with 3rd parties to either get compliant...100% or get out. I think they are trying to nip the problem in the butt sooner rather than later.
By the way...3rd party translated apps make up a very small % of the total apps on the appstore. i had heard over 90% of the apps are natively coded...3rd party Game Engine apps are probably less than 3% of the app totals...all combined.
We're all small potatoes in Apple's eyes...but with Flash entering...that dynamic may change...and this is why Apple may be "getting tough" now to make sure that this fresh wave of app development is compliant to the standards...so it doesn't get out of control.
I think that people who are expecting Apple to buy out or somehow partner with every company that falls on the wrong side of this agreement are being a little naive. The best we can hope for is that they're lenient about how they enforce their agreement. However, that still wouldn't change the fact that they can site their agreement at *any time,* to ban any of our games from the app store. They would have complete control over us, since how they interpret the phrasing of the TOS is up to them and not us.
I still think Apple's decision is outrageous and sets a really bad precedence, no matter how optimistic we try to be. The bottom line is that if Apple can do this without repercussions, any other company can tailor their TOS for purely political reasons. That means any hardware developer can tell you how to use their products for non-technical reasons. If Apple wanted one company that handles graphical parts of app development to succeed, they could snowball every other one, and it would be *legal.* In non-commercial politics, one might call this a "dictatorship."
Any kind of pressure on Apple to change the phrasing of that agreement would benefit all developers in the long run. Don't think a petition will succeed? Fine. But please, if you care about this, make your voice heard in some way. Post about it being unfair on your Facebook, MySpace, or Twitter. Talk about it on the forums you frequent.
@ butterbean - Here in Indiana its nip in the butt...plus I have a Jack Russell Terrier...and she pretty much validates the expression on a regular basis.
Got another one for you... "fart in a skillet" = "a rascal"
Comments
I do completely disagree with you on one point, however:
"If one knows that they have to recoup that $500 each year, let alone make a profit, they would have to put in a significant amount of effort in their work. Not something that looks like it's done in Microsoft Paint."
Paint is my go to program for any pixel art that I do. In fact many professional pixel-artists still use paint. Don't be hatin' on paint! >:p
Carry on.
I dread to say he's probably right. A lot of people tell me that they don't like GS games. I tell them to shove it but in a way GS games are slow and simple. I don't think that really bothers me because you lot have made some great games with the GS engine.
- Red block remover
- Danger cats (I think thats what its called)
- Kill the king
And the list can go on and on.
I'm totally and utterly lost right now.
From what I've read online, there seems to be the idea that more information on the subject will be released today, so time will tell.
This is some fun stuff!
"3. Declare exclusivity for development to/with Apple products only (Safari, Mac, iPhone/iPod touch, iPad). No Windows version....4.Incress the the price...etc."
No man, please, on any kind of business you to have EVER the possibility of different channels, iphone is a good channel but not the once, as I told just the last week:
http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=4937
Android its the actual opportunity now and not the iphone, because the number of ready app in the android market, less offer for more people, right now you have much visibility than appstore fighting the thousands of apps, maybe "Tweetie" will not see for anybody if its lunched today, different when they lunched, with only a fews app at appstore, the same story for "Trism" and other... I have a friend that was selling about 2000/day apps at the beggining of appstore and now maybe 10/day.
The platform GS does not need to be "exclusive", they have a xml based project .gameproj its a good idea and xml is not banned by the new Apple Agreement, Drag and Drop, easy, All that youguys know. They only need to change de Code Core do native interface IDE for every case, in the iphone's case move into something Objective-C native like Cocos2D that do not have LUA, etc. Just replace the base Code, not the interface, think that they only need to found solution for iphone .app code, not for IDE, only a native iPhone GS runtime that can embed your .gameproj with your xml files and resources.
Lets talk about Android, Nokia, HP Slite, and other, they only need to implement at first similar native runtime or player for each platform, because the rest is only xml. And for later a ports for the IDE too, like windows or linux, but after the runtime.
Cocos2D port for the iphone is 100% Objective-C and maybe a good option for GS to move into this Native Core for their actual iphone runtime.
And the price, please, no, no, I did spend so much money the last by now, 2400 macbook pro, the best, torque, development kits for torque, resources, books, software, the iphone, etc. Just for not having nothing with torque that compile without any problem or take all my iphone memory or with memory leeks, etc. GS is a good opportunity for me to recover the hope and GAMESALAD, PLEASE, MOVE, MOVE AND MOVE, BUT NOW!! AND FOUND A SOLUTION, PLEASE!!!! I believe in "Good Brains"!!!
By other side, Raphael, going alone to suicide its not a good idea, better we can meet all of us in some place like "el cairo" or "Area 59" in order to take a poisoned BEER!!! ; )))P
If something meed to found a new job, please by my app!!!! It can found jobs in 14 countires!!!! Hahaha!! ; )))
http://idealius.com/blog/jobssearch
Regards,
Varela
(Madrid, Spain)
Crap games are made *without* GameSalad every day. To lump it all at GS's door is just wrong. There are 50,000 games available on the app store. How many are good? How many are awful? How many are made with GS?
Surely there are more crap games just made with the apple tools than there are with GS? Should Apple ban their own tools?
There are currently just over 200 GS games available. Some games are included multiple times (lite versions, iPad versions). And as I mentioned, there are 50,000 games on the app store.
So really. How bad a reputation has GS got? A handful of games in the grand scheme of things…
And just because we find some games distasteful, or just plain crap, who are we to judge them? Have you seen some of the rubbish you can find on the app store? In new and noteworthy? In ‘staff picks’?
Some of the best selling apps you could probably make in GS in a week. Maybe less. If this is what people want, then let them have it!
What about people like tshirtbooth? He started out with games that were, by his own admission, crap. Look at him now!
People will always focus on the negative. Play a Tshirt game, a firemaple game - heck - even one of your own games! Good games *can* be made. Why should we stifle that creativity by putting the tool to publish on the iphone out of the reach of people who'd like to give game making a try?
Please, let's stop being elitist about this. What you are suggesting will mean that only those with enough money to invest can publish an iphone game with GS, regardless of the quality of their effort.
Having money to invest/burn will not guarantee quality. Indeed, it may put some people off taking a chance on their dream of having a game on the iPhone.
As to your secondary point - how can we convince Apple we're worthy? I think that's a moot point. I don’t think anybody could…
Oh, and please don’t take this as a personal attack or rant against you. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your output, as I hope you know!
Cheers,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
As for the agreement we have to 'sign', I think is only if you want to download the iPhone 4.0 SDK. I signed and submitted a new 'craptard' game...hope it gets approve.
also, here's a link to the adobe video: http://cs5launch.adobe.com/?promoid=FDKBR
aside from iphone publishing, they're making a lot of things drag and drop and very intuitive to use their products...just like GS.
LOL @ TSB's comment.
I really hope there's a light at the end of this tunnel, and it's not the headlight of an oncoming train labeled "Section 3.3.1."
I don't want it to go to 500 posts. I just want something more definitive from Apple and something less cryptic from GameSalad.
Perhaps I should go back to my music lessons and release some songs on iTunes and YouTube, as I'm going to have to go through heaven and hell to understand Objective-C efficiently.
The only concerning part is that GameSalad uses Lua and Lua isn't one of the approved languages. However, that's something that Gendai is going to have to figure out. It should be pretty strait forward to gut any parts of the engine that are in Lua an replace them with Obj-C.
We don't actually write code.
Seriously, look at the contents of your .gameproj. Where's the code? There isn't any. It's all just XML declarations and resources.
Gendai? Have anything to add to this mess?
About whispers.
My brother's company was one of the few (if not the only) in Italy to get the iPad prior to the launch date thanks to a friend of his boss that has inside contacts with Apple.
Since they use a proprietary tool to create apps when Jobs unveiled the 4.0 with the new agreement they immediately asked that contact how they were to manage the situation.
Answer: "Don't worry, it's mostly because of Adobe's Flash-to-AppStore CS5 update that's creating us some really bad performance problems. Other third party compilers should be ok."
On a side note some other guys that said that were in touch with some Apple devs hinted to the fact that all this could be because Apple is developing it's own game creator tool to go alongside xCode final 4.0 build. But this is purely speculative IMO.
// Forced lurk mode - on //
So maybe we will be one of the few that will be good to go. Being featured on the Apple site for "how to make games" is kind of cool too but it is reduced in its consoling properties by the fact that Unity was also featured.
I wish we could get to the end of this issue so we can move on without a clouded/worried head.
To be honest, there are so many good tutorials, video podcasts and books available for Objective-C, that even someone like me could actually learn this language. It should help that I have some expierience in RealBasic, since that is OOP, too. But to be honest, I was always a guy that had visions and wanted to see these ideas become a virtual reality as soon as possible. Creating straight and proper code, checking the syntax, debugging and learning the necessary math and physics was always kind of a struggle for me.
Guys like me need tools like GameSalad. I don't want to bother about syntax, memory management and so on. I want to concentrate on my creativity and let a tool do the part that I'm not good at. That's the only way I can have fun when creating programs. And the only way I can afford it, because my time is limited.
I'm happy that I discovered GS some days ago. It would be too sad if Steve would ban it. I'm surely willing to pay a good price for GS if I can use it also in the future to create apps for the iDevices.
Rumor from Apple Devs:
Apple is developing its own game creator tool to coincide with XCode and iPhone OS 4.
Comment by GameSalad:
(paraphrased) "While others see brick walls, we see a wealth of opportunities..."
Considering that Gendai has been relatively quiet - 2 posts out of 313 - are they up to something even bigger? And I mean, a LOT bigger? Have we all joined into something that Apple themselves is going to embrace and integrate as part of their own?
Apple has picked up quite a few good companies and their technologies and rolled it into their own over the past few years. There's no doubt that GameSalad is a remarkable engine that's easy to use. If Apple bought GameSalad, this could be big for the team that created it - they really deserve it. And, it could mean we're actually on the winning team for once.
As for "substandard" apps...I think Apple is talking about substandard Code compiling...not content. They don't care about the content so much...unless it is "not tasteful" or "copyright violating" or "porn". If it just "looks dumb"...they really don't care. They let the market decide if the app is worth purchasing or not.
They are NOT going to ban your app if they "think" it sucks. They are looking to ban apps that "don't comply" with their SDK provisions/APIs.
The fact that TSB found a link to an Apple Blog referencing GameSalad is promising. Which to me says that they are not targeting 3rd Party translators in a general sense. They just want third parties to follow their parameters within their build specifications...so that they will function properly with Apple OS and Device improvements down the road. Flash rejected their specs and built their OWN proprietary compiler...which is completely outside of Apple's SDK environment...and I am sure Apple doesn't like this...thereby making ANY app built with the Flash iPhone compiler "substandard".
...you pretty much need a Mac for GameSalad ($599+)
...you pretty much need an iPod Touch / iPhone / iPad for testing ($200+)
...you need to be a registered developer ($99)
...you need to give Apple a 30% cut when you sell games on the App Store.
I'm thinking that Gendai Games is rethinking the way they manage stuff. This is a huge opportunity for them. Apple seems to be at war with Adobe Flash. The longer CS5 is clouded in confusion, the more time GameSalad has to improve. You can't just throw a salad together... the vegetables need time to grow.
I still think its all about forcing compliance to the standards preset by Apple. Compliance is pre-forced when you develop natively in the SDK environment. But when you introduce a translator...then things can run astray.
I think Apple is simply getting tough with 3rd parties to either get compliant...100% or get out. I think they are trying to nip the problem in the butt sooner rather than later.
By the way...3rd party translated apps make up a very small % of the total apps on the appstore. i had heard over 90% of the apps are natively coded...3rd party Game Engine apps are probably less than 3% of the app totals...all combined.
We're all small potatoes in Apple's eyes...but with Flash entering...that dynamic may change...and this is why Apple may be "getting tough" now to make sure that this fresh wave of app development is compliant to the standards...so it doesn't get out of control.
I hope GS nips it in the Bud, and gets compliant if they aren't already so
I still think Apple's decision is outrageous and sets a really bad precedence, no matter how optimistic we try to be. The bottom line is that if Apple can do this without repercussions, any other company can tailor their TOS for purely political reasons. That means any hardware developer can tell you how to use their products for non-technical reasons. If Apple wanted one company that handles graphical parts of app development to succeed, they could snowball every other one, and it would be *legal.* In non-commercial politics, one might call this a "dictatorship."
Any kind of pressure on Apple to change the phrasing of that agreement would benefit all developers in the long run. Don't think a petition will succeed? Fine. But please, if you care about this, make your voice heard in some way. Post about it being unfair on your Facebook, MySpace, or Twitter. Talk about it on the forums you frequent.
People should be opposed to this.
Here in Indiana its nip in the butt...plus I have a Jack Russell Terrier...and she pretty much validates the expression on a regular basis.
Got another one for you...
"fart in a skillet" = "a rascal"
So can Gamesalad still be 100% compliant in this scenario with Apple, or are companies like this screwed?