Maybe if Gamesalad just pledges their support for exporting to only Apple products we will be fine ( and their 1st born and a blood sample ). I really do not want to make 5 different versions of the same game for 5 different platforms anyways. I would rather just make it to the best 2 platforms (iphone 3gs/16/32 touch & iPad)...Its painful to develop for the old iPhone/touch with Gamesalad(you have to kill alot of details). If we have to make screens that fit on Android with all their new controls, I think I would get very frustrated (plus palm crapree ...) Doesnt android come in a bunch of different screen sizes?...No thanks. I would have no problems if Gamesalad was just exclusively for Apple. Keeps it clean and simple.
Doesn't sound very good at all. I guess only time will tell. I think it is going to do Apple more harm than good if they took that stance against all non-native xCode apps. One of the features they tout is that they have SO MANY apps. This will greatly reduce the number of incoming apps. O well hopefully the GS guru's have some tricks up their sleeves. Hopefully we hear something from them tomorrow.
"The primary reason for the change, say sources familiar with Apple's plans, is to support sophisticated new multitasking APIs in iPhone 4.0. The system will now be evaluating apps as they run in order to implement smart multitasking. It can't do this if apps are running within a runtime or are cross compiled with a foreign structure that doesn't behave identically to a native C/C++/Obj-C app."
Has anyone upgraded to 4.0 and test one of GS apps and see if it handles the multitasking fine and w/o crashing?
I think if this simple test works, we might be a step closer to know whether Gendai is compliant and/or what they need to do to fix GS.
well GS devs, get at it...we're desperately waiting...It's ok if you don't do a windows version of GS anymore...I think the majority of us are heavily invested already with apple products
QUOTE They’re trying to protect their platform, and why not. They made something that’s better than their competitors that people want to use. It’s been a huge success. Why threaten that by allowing others (big or small) come along and muck it up? We can all debate as whether they are being over reactionary, but there’s only one opinion that counts, and if Adobe/GS/Unity disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn’t hurt them one little bit. “We we’re a success without you, and guess what? We’ll keep being a success without you”. /QUOTE
When I said that apple shouldn't have allowing one man garage shows to the appstore, but rather professional publisher companies (small or big) who ensure that only quality apps appear under their flags made by small developers, I was told that I am an idiot and the small developers made the appstore to what it is now.
Now what happend to the "yay, let the independent community bring back the 80's" attitude? Suddenly it is not good enough for apple to have independent developers with low quality apps to fill up the appstore.
sorry if it has already been posted: but the latest news from apple on Macrumours:
In a series of emails reportedly between Steve Jobs and Greg Slepak, Jobs responds to questions about Apple's recent move to ban tools that allow cross-compilation from other languages into iPhone OS native code. The change in terms effectively blocks Adobe's Flash-to-iPhone compiler and could affect other similar developer tools.
Jobs reportedly points to John Gruber's analysis of why Apple might have implemented this. Gruber argues that Apple wants control over native iPhone OS development and cross platform solutions would dilute iPhone-exclusive and iPhone native apps.
If that were to happen, theres no lock-in advantage. If, say, a mobile Flash software platform which encompassed multiple lower-level platforms, running on iPhone, Android, Windows Phone 7, and BlackBerry were established, that app market would not give people a reason to prefer the iPhone. .... And, obviously, such a meta-platform would be out of Apples control. Consider a world where some other companys cross-platform toolkit proved wildly popular. Then Apple releases major new features to iPhone OS, and that other companys toolkit is slow to adopt them. At that point, its the other company that controls when third-party apps can make use of these features. Gruber also believes that these cross platform compilers rarely produce high quality native apps. Steve Jobs reiterated this point in a followup email:
Weve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.
Hmmm,...the reference to sub standard apps is annoying...I mean if they don't like the apps don't approve them, give feed back and just approve apps when they are good enough.... you don't need to stop everyone getting access.
Let's hope Gendai gives us some info/thoughts today. iPhone exclusivity, and removal of the splash screen ( but with link in credits) are both good points. I get the "shareware feeling" when I see games with the splash screen. The same with the unity logo.
I have no problem with dropping the android support, as long GS survives.
The problem with weeding out "Substandard apps" at the approval process, is the fact that it's a human process, and as such will be quite subjective. What one person deems to be sub-standard, might not be seen as such by a different reviewer.
As for using the substandard apps argument for banning 3rd party middleware........I'm sure 80-90% of the crap that's up there that we all know is rubbish, will be native x-code.
As pointed out, this is more about Apple maintaining control over features integration, and exclusivity of it's developers.
It's quite worrying that as things stand now, no one seems to know what the exact Apple line is....which leads me to believe that they don't really know 100% themselves. (Maybe it really WAS a knee jerk/well timed reaction to CS5?)
Would be nice to get a "proper" statement from the guys here, but again....if they have nothing concrete to say, there really isn't much point in saying anything.
I would hope that once they know for sure what guidelines need to be stuck to, they can crack on and re-work the tools to stay within them (hopefully)
It's worrying, but can't do much about it really.... if GS gets canned by Apple maybe Gendai can evolve GS to publish 'OFFLINE' - HTML5 / Javascript games instead.
So what... your thinking....a game.....there's more....
2) In Safari (iPhone) hit the plus button at the bottom of the browser and add this page to your homescreen.
3) Custom icon is loaded and the the app file complete with splash screen is now installed just like a regular app onto the iPhone (Can be played OFFLINE just like any other game)
4) Granted... the game is not great and the controls are a bit dodgy. However the potential is definitely there for some pretty good 2D games. Do a google search and look at some of the HTML 5 tech demos on the web lately, there's some impressive stuff.
So.... potentially Apple is not needed anymore, just publish on Gendai's or even your own site and charge directly.
Quote: "When I said that apple shouldn't have allowing one man garage shows to the appstore, but rather professional publisher companies (small or big) who ensure that only quality apps appear under their flags made by small developers, I was told that I am an idiot and the small developers made the appstore to what it is now."
Sheepy: Yes, and I still believe that. The more original titles come from very small, if not one-man, developers. Look at GameLoft - they essentially rip off, very well, console games and put them on the app store. It's not original, it's done very well, but I find their games shallow and dull. Thank God for games like Canabalt!
Quote: "Now what happend to the "yay, let the independent community bring back the 80's" attitude? Suddenly it is not good enough for apple to have independent developers with low quality apps to fill up the appstore."
Sheepy: You know about as much as I do about the situation. Which is not much. Low quality apps are not exclusive to independent developers. Big companies make !@#$% games as well.
Sorry for the attitude and language, but you can take your unjustified elitist attitude and shove it.
@QS: I don't even answer that, because obviously you have no idea what I was talking about and I don't want to have to explain it in a belittling way, but I couldn't do it in another way.
Thank you for proving that I am really better off without these forums here.
Hopefully more insight from Gendai regarding this. Have they spoken with Apple directly?
I'll reiterate and update my recommendations that GG should take:
1. Remove the GameSalad splash screen. All Express memberships must still show a GameSalad logo and live link in a credits screen. I'd even go so far as implementing it as a non-deletable "Credits" scene for all projects. Update our memberships to agree to this. 2. Vastly reduce the splash screen time and add a progress bar. 3. Declare exclusivity for development to/with Apple products only (Safari, Mac, iPhone/iPod touch, iPad). No Windows version. 4. As much as I hate to admit this, increase the Express membership price, and possibly have it due every six months instead of a year to offset the load.
Let me explain #4: While no one can control and enforce the quality of the apps that hit the App Store other than the developer of their app, there needs to be an additional incentive to make the apps created with GameSalad more appealing to customers. This effect will make developers put more time and effort into their games to make it more acceptable by "Apple's and users' standards" and therefore more profitable. If Joe Schmoe pops down $198 for an iPhone Indie License and a GameSalad Express Membership and starts spitting out a ton of crappy games with a GS logo at startup for $0.99 each, don't think it just affects him and his products on the App Store - it reflects negatively upon GameSalad and all its other paid developers. You have to be living under a rock if you haven't read or heard about such complaints in various forums and article comments.
I wish apple would just take their own approval process more seriously. If they are concerned about quality, then why did they approve so many of my shitty apps? Why make such a blanket statement when they could just tell me that my shitty app doesn't meet their quality standards.
They want it both ways (T-shirt, insert your "that's what..." joke here). They want to brag about the number of apps they have, but now they want an excuse to stop cross platforming so they bitch about "quality" when they could've stopped low quality apps all along.
Apple is asking me to sign an agreement I do not know I can uphold. Can Gendai state if GS does indeed fall foul of the new requirements? If so, do you plan to adhere to these new requirements? If so, by what time-frame will these updates become available?
I understand this may take a little time to get organised, but an answer to the first question should at least be available?
I'm not being a trouble maker, i mean, i really hope you guys had a sweet weekend watching doctor who and stuff. But i neither want to break my contract with Apple or break the Law.
People are starting to turn on each other in frustration, and the stakes for everyone are raising daily.
You guys are heroes, we all know that already, so no need to build the tension for a dramatic save.
BTW - My sleepless weekend consisted of trying to learn Obj-C (fail).
Its too easy to jump to conclusions and assume "substandard" is passing judgement on game content.....
I dont think substandard has anything to to do with the actual game content at all but rather the lacking of features to fully support the idea behind what apple wants
I.E a flash game freezing or letting virus in the back door or a GS game not supporting multi tasking on 4.0
If one knows that they have to recoup that $500 each year, let alone make a profit, they would have to put in a significant amount of effort in their work. Not something that looks like it's done in Microsoft Paint.
All cross-compilers are in Apple's crosshairs, and people complain about some of the products made with them to begin with. Since there's no stopping anyone from pushing out an app to the App Store other than a license and membership, what other steps do you propose that will help keep us from being dropped as a viable platform to the App Store?
@maniraptor: How long ago was that tweet? We're in the middle of a tug-of-war game as it is, and he's gotta throw in a puzzle to complicate things?
Comments
Anyone want to get off?
Thought not...
/starts ride again
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
in another note, have y'all seen this: http://gizmodo.com/5514495/macbook-pro-updates-spotted-at-microcenter
and this: http://gizmodo.com/5145151/iphone-4g-concept-is-a-macbook-in-a-phone
sounds/look pretty cool...dang, I really hope GS does come thru for all of us...damn apple and their awesome toys ;~)
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/04/09/apples_prohibition_of_flash_built_apps_in_iphone_4_0_related_to_multitasking.html
"The primary reason for the change, say sources familiar with Apple's plans, is to support sophisticated new multitasking APIs in iPhone 4.0. The system will now be evaluating apps as they run in order to implement smart multitasking. It can't do this if apps are running within a runtime or are cross compiled with a foreign structure that doesn't behave identically to a native C/C++/Obj-C app."
Has anyone upgraded to 4.0 and test one of GS apps and see if it handles the multitasking fine and w/o crashing?
I think if this simple test works, we might be a step closer to know whether Gendai is compliant and/or what they need to do to fix GS.
well GS devs, get at it...we're desperately waiting...It's ok if you don't do a windows version of GS anymore...I think the majority of us are heavily invested already with apple products
http://gamesalad.com/forums/topic.php?id=5340
Me too...
They’re trying to protect their platform, and why not. They made something that’s better than their competitors that people want to use. It’s been a huge success. Why threaten that by allowing others (big or small) come along and muck it up? We can all debate as whether they are being over reactionary, but there’s only one opinion that counts, and if Adobe/GS/Unity disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn’t hurt them one little bit. “We we’re a success without you, and guess what? We’ll keep being a success without you”.
/QUOTE
When I said that apple shouldn't have allowing one man garage shows to the appstore, but rather professional publisher companies (small or big) who ensure that only quality apps appear under their flags made by small developers, I was told that I am an idiot and the small developers made the appstore to what it is now.
Now what happend to the "yay, let the independent community bring back the 80's" attitude?
Suddenly it is not good enough for apple to have independent developers with low quality apps to fill up the appstore.
---
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I am off again...
but the latest news from apple on Macrumours:
In a series of emails reportedly between Steve Jobs and Greg Slepak, Jobs responds to questions about Apple's recent move to ban tools that allow cross-compilation from other languages into iPhone OS native code. The change in terms effectively blocks Adobe's Flash-to-iPhone compiler and could affect other similar developer tools.
Jobs reportedly points to John Gruber's analysis of why Apple might have implemented this. Gruber argues that Apple wants control over native iPhone OS development and cross platform solutions would dilute iPhone-exclusive and iPhone native apps.
If that were to happen, theres no lock-in advantage. If, say, a mobile Flash software platform which encompassed multiple lower-level platforms, running on iPhone, Android, Windows Phone 7, and BlackBerry were established, that app market would not give people a reason to prefer the iPhone.
....
And, obviously, such a meta-platform would be out of Apples control. Consider a world where some other companys cross-platform toolkit proved wildly popular. Then Apple releases major new features to iPhone OS, and that other companys toolkit is slow to adopt them. At that point, its the other company that controls when third-party apps can make use of these features.
Gruber also believes that these cross platform compilers rarely produce high quality native apps. Steve Jobs reiterated this point in a followup email:
Weve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.
THE LINK TO THE ORIGINAL SOURCE:
http://www.macrumors.com/2010/04/10/steve-jobs-offers-explanation-about-iphone-sdk-changes-restricting-adobe-and-other-cross-compilers/
Hmmm,...the reference to sub standard apps is annoying...I mean if they don't like the apps don't approve them, give feed back and just approve apps when they are good enough.... you don't need to stop everyone getting access.
iPhone exclusivity, and removal of the splash screen ( but with link in credits) are both good points. I get the "shareware feeling" when I see games with the splash screen. The same with the unity logo.
I have no problem with dropping the android support, as long GS survives.
Hitler's iPhone app is rejected by Apple
What one person deems to be sub-standard, might not be seen as such by a different reviewer.
As for using the substandard apps argument for banning 3rd party middleware........I'm sure 80-90% of the crap that's up there that we all know is rubbish, will be native x-code.
As pointed out, this is more about Apple maintaining control over features integration, and exclusivity of it's developers.
It's quite worrying that as things stand now, no one seems to know what the exact Apple line is....which leads me to believe that they don't really know 100% themselves. (Maybe it really WAS a knee jerk/well timed reaction to CS5?)
Would be nice to get a "proper" statement from the guys here, but again....if they have nothing concrete to say, there really isn't much point in saying anything.
I would hope that once they know for sure what guidelines need to be stuck to, they can crack on and re-work the tools to stay within them (hopefully)
1) Using your iPhone/iPod Touch, take a look at this: http://tetris.alexkessinger.net.
So what... your thinking....a game.....there's more....
2) In Safari (iPhone) hit the plus button at the bottom of the browser and add this page to your homescreen.
3) Custom icon is loaded and the the app file complete with splash screen is now installed just like a regular app onto the iPhone (Can be played OFFLINE just like any other game)
4) Granted... the game is not great and the controls are a bit dodgy. However the potential is definitely there for some pretty good 2D games. Do a google search and look at some of the HTML 5 tech demos on the web lately, there's some impressive stuff.
So.... potentially Apple is not needed anymore, just publish on Gendai's or even your own site and charge directly.
Go have a look and tell me what you think?
http://www.watersheep.org/~markh/canvas_touch/game.html
Don't think this game has been set to run OFFLINE sadly, but you get the idea?
"When I said that apple shouldn't have allowing one man garage shows to the appstore, but rather professional publisher companies (small or big) who ensure that only quality apps appear under their flags made by small developers, I was told that I am an idiot and the small developers made the appstore to what it is now."
Sheepy: Yes, and I still believe that. The more original titles come from very small, if not one-man, developers. Look at GameLoft - they essentially rip off, very well, console games and put them on the app store. It's not original, it's done very well, but I find their games shallow and dull. Thank God for games like Canabalt!
Quote:
"Now what happend to the "yay, let the independent community bring back the 80's" attitude?
Suddenly it is not good enough for apple to have independent developers with low quality apps to fill up the appstore."
Sheepy: You know about as much as I do about the situation. Which is not much. Low quality apps are not exclusive to independent developers. Big companies make !@#$% games as well.
Sorry for the attitude and language, but you can take your unjustified elitist attitude and shove it.
Welcome back to the forum btw,
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
Try to say here something.
@QS:
I don't even answer that, because obviously you have no idea what I was talking about and I don't want to have to explain it in a belittling way, but I couldn't do it in another way.
Thank you for proving that I am really better off without these forums here.
Bye for ever!
I'll reiterate and update my recommendations that GG should take:
1. Remove the GameSalad splash screen. All Express memberships must still show a GameSalad logo and live link in a credits screen. I'd even go so far as implementing it as a non-deletable "Credits" scene for all projects. Update our memberships to agree to this.
2. Vastly reduce the splash screen time and add a progress bar.
3. Declare exclusivity for development to/with Apple products only (Safari, Mac, iPhone/iPod touch, iPad). No Windows version.
4. As much as I hate to admit this, increase the Express membership price, and possibly have it due every six months instead of a year to offset the load.
Let me explain #4: While no one can control and enforce the quality of the apps that hit the App Store other than the developer of their app, there needs to be an additional incentive to make the apps created with GameSalad more appealing to customers. This effect will make developers put more time and effort into their games to make it more acceptable by "Apple's and users' standards" and therefore more profitable. If Joe Schmoe pops down $198 for an iPhone Indie License and a GameSalad Express Membership and starts spitting out a ton of crappy games with a GS logo at startup for $0.99 each, don't think it just affects him and his products on the App Store - it reflects negatively upon GameSalad and all its other paid developers. You have to be living under a rock if you haven't read or heard about such complaints in various forums and article comments.
* ducks and runs
I 100% agree with your points. Not bought GS yet, but willing to pay more to use it.
They want it both ways (T-shirt, insert your "that's what..." joke here). They want to brag about the number of apps they have, but now they want an excuse to stop cross platforming so they bitch about "quality" when they could've stopped low quality apps all along.
Apple is asking me to sign an agreement I do not know I can uphold.
Can Gendai state if GS does indeed fall foul of the new requirements?
If so, do you plan to adhere to these new requirements?
If so, by what time-frame will these updates become available?
I understand this may take a little time to get organised, but an answer to the first question should at least be available?
I'm not being a trouble maker, i mean, i really hope you guys had a sweet weekend watching doctor who and stuff. But i neither want to break my contract with Apple or break the Law.
People are starting to turn on each other in frustration, and the stakes for everyone are raising daily.
You guys are heroes, we all know that already, so no need to build the tension for a dramatic save.
BTW - My sleepless weekend consisted of trying to learn Obj-C (fail).
I dont think substandard has anything to to do with the actual game content at all but rather the lacking of features to fully support the idea behind what apple wants
I.E a flash game freezing or letting virus in the back door or a GS game not supporting multi tasking on 4.0
#iPhone4: Where others see brick walls, we're discovering a wealth of opportunities for @GameSalad. 2010 is going to be fun. Stay tuned.
(lexander is GameSalad's Michael Agustin.)
As to BTT's idea #4:
I do see what you're saying, really I do. I mean, I paid $500 for GS when it first arrived, so I know its value to me.
However, I just don't agree in principle with what you're suggesting here.
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
All cross-compilers are in Apple's crosshairs, and people complain about some of the products made with them to begin with. Since there's no stopping anyone from pushing out an app to the App Store other than a license and membership, what other steps do you propose that will help keep us from being dropped as a viable platform to the App Store?
@maniraptor: How long ago was that tweet? We're in the middle of a tug-of-war game as it is, and he's gotta throw in a puzzle to complicate things?