Reading posts from Adobe's CTO it seems that the problem is that Adobe created their own iPhone compiler. Apple doesn't like that. They want to make sure that only Apple's compilers and tools are used for app assembly. This makes a lot of sense from a security standpoint since the ARM assembly being generated by Xcode and the iPhone SDK is certified by apple to be safe, whereas 3rd party assemblers are not able to be verified by Apple. Additionally, if Adobe were able to build flash apps with CS5 and directly generate iPhone ARM assembly then they would be able to do that on PC as well. Thus cutting into Mac sales. Ultimately, this would mean that Flash and Flex (Adobe's application development toolkit and API that creates swf's) would be able to create applications for iPad and iPhone that do not look and feel just like the iPhone SDK. This would ruin the apple brand. We can't forget that Apple's customer is the consumer, not us. We WANT the walled garden to stay intact.
It seems like it would be a simple matter for Adobe to just release CS5 with Obj-C export functionality that turns your flash .swf into an xcode project, then call xcode in the background to do the actual compilation and sidestep the whole issue, but that's a different topic. Correct me if i'm wrong GameSalad devs but I think this is exactly how GameSalad server operates, correct? However, to contradict myself for a moment: If Apple wanted to limit the build tools to just xcode then why not just put into the license agreement that you have to use a Mac and you have to compile using xcode. There, problem solved.
I think GameSalad is fine so long as whatever magic is happening on the GameSalad server is running through an instance of xcode's compiler.
I think they also need to declare that they will develop exclusively for the Apple platforms.
I also think we all need to step up our game if we're going to release games to the App Store. Make a game that you'll want to pay for if you saw it there.
I was going to open up another thread about this, but there's been some GameSalad bashing on some forums and comment posts. From the sounds of it, they might be justified in some respects - some of the GS apps that are put out there on the App Store are hardly worthy of a free download. I understand it's a free market and we all have a "right" to put our work out there, but you have to remember that the GameSalad logo is the first thing they see (and quite the longest) and it will be embedded in their brains when it turns out they wasted $0.99-$x.99 for a game.
@Beyondthetech: I completely agree. I'm starting to try and hold myself to much higher standards. I want my games to make people want to buy more of my games. And while I think the items I've produced certainly stand by themselves in the app store, I'm not doing as well as I could be.
However, this tool is designed for people who cannot code. I feel as though I probably could create games on other platforms if I was put into a situation where GS is no longer available, but others aren't that fortunate.
All somewhat tipsy/irrelevant rambling aside, I think we should all hold ourselves to that standard. We all know if we create an app we wouldn't want to buy. Let's create ones we would.
Even after reading Jobs' response I still don't get what that means for us. But I'm sure Gendai will make some statments within the next week. I really begin to like GS, would be too bad if it would be banned from creating App Store content.
“We’ve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.”
Doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Worries me a bit actually...
Yeah...that response tells me that Apple's initial issue is not only Flash entering...but also looking for a way to basically force devs to CHOOSE Apple or Non-Apple. They don't want iTunes apps going to other platforms. They want commitment from devs to produce iPhone apps exclusively...and forcing you to use raw XCode to develop apps limits the "portability" of the code...whereas in translators...with a push of a button - you can distribute to multi-platforms.
This is a key issue for Apple to try and maintain the "King of the Mountain" position they have in app library dominance...at least for as long as possible. They want XCode to be the forced parameter to control the app market. If they squash the little guy in the process...I guess they consider that an acceptable trade-off.
Still hard to tell...but yes Eastbound...its a roller coaster of a ride.
It's terrible not knowing which direction we're going but it's not sounding very good right now! I hope if GS has any updates on this they can let us know
But the Appcelerator CEO blog suggests that translators can still function and be compliant to the XCode API requirements. We don't know if this is how GS is structured...if not...it may get blocked...otherwise...if they are compliant and appcelerator lives...then GS has a chance of living also.
But Appcelerator has the "Push to Android" button in place and GS does not. Only time will tell who gets bumped and who doesn't. Either way, it doesn't look good for Adobe next week. Ouch!
Now if only the GS CEO would be as "visual" and "open" as the Appcelerator CEO. I guess that the difference between "open-source" and "proprietary" software. No secrets so much in open software.
I really think this whole OS 4 license thing is aimed at Apps. I think games fall in a different category. if you look at the top Games on AppStore they were made with middleware like Unity or Torque. Some of the customers of Unity and Torque are EA and Bioware. I can't imagine apple banning games from EA or Bioware when they've signed partnership agreements with them. However, EA and Bioware have the resources and knowhow to make games in pure C/C++/Obj-C wheras one-man devs like us depend on middleware to make games quickly.
It's still iffy, but my instincts tell me that this whole thing is aimed at stopping alternative Application UI frameworks from getting onto the iPhone. I hope Apple doesn't consider game middleware to be in the same category as application toolkits.
Of course, then you fall into a gray area with simulations. Like for example, what would you classify a physics homework tutor that lets you simulate physics equations with graphics and animation. Is that game or application? I think that it would be dependent on the category you upload your game into in AppStore.
But bottom line. It's still not clear and GS needs to get some official word from Apple on whether or not their tool will be allowed. Then they need to tell us word for word what Apple said.
Oh, and everyone that loves GS should get a free iPad
Sorry if I’m upsetting any optimists here, but you can go back to designing space-trousers or something.
Like so many creators I feel somewhat worried, threatened, ill-treated and worst of all completely impotent.
Apple
They’re trying to protect their platform, and why not. They made something that’s better than their competitors that people want to use. It’s been a huge success. Why threaten that by allowing others (big or small) come along and muck it up? We can all debate as whether they are being over reactionary, but there’s only one opinion that counts, and if Adobe/GS/Unity disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn’t hurt them one little bit. “We we’re a success without you, and guess what? We’ll keep being a success without you”.
Adobe
Ever since they got their grubby little hands on flash from macromedia, they’ve poured an immense amount of money into making a complete balls up of it. Okay this is not about that, but they’ve got a bit of an idea, and a huge amount of money to justify…
Apple vs Adobe
Is Apple vs the rest of us as well.
As Apple counter moves to block Adobe’s attempts to provide a development platform, you can be sure that it will (if not already) threaten GS/Unity. Example. If CS5 is a no no, then Adobe will produce a Unity style implementation. If that gets blocked, then they might look at GS with similar results.
Game Salad
Clever people also need luck, money, lawyers, support, and a feasible product.
Luck : For GS to survive the Apple vs Adobe war with a tenable position. Money : To develop a product that people have stopped buying because they don’t know if it works. Lawyers : Because we all owe them a living. Support : From games creators and Apple. A feasible product : If Apple say no, then there’s nothing much GS can do about it.
I for one am not impressed by the “We’re clever” statement. Even less so to see it repeated. Sorry. I love GS, but some of us are reasonably clever too and we’re still worried.
Moving forward
I have stopped developing two very large GS projects, I don’t really have any choice. Now whilst this doesn’t necessarily free up any time, it would be great to hear some ideas to help our cause. A plea / petition to Apple? How can we use this great GS community? Can we decide if we’d be happy with a Apple or nothing approach? Or should be pushing for Android / Wii / DS / etc publishing?
If for what ever reason Apple bans the Amateur / Pro-Am / Independent game creator (those of us that don’t know obj-C at any case) from producing Apple games then that will be a real shame for everyone. But !@#$% ‘em if they do, you’re just too important to give up. It’s not code that makes great games, but ideas.
One last point
Ignore the stupid ‘shovel-ware threatening the platform’ comments. The market ensures and demands there’s a place for everyone. The industry is dependant on it. The gaming industry would simply die without new, cross pollinating, creative, independents.
I for one think a petition would be a great idea. The bottom line is that the app store has given indie developers some absolutely terrific opportunities, and they have made the app store more successful. The best way for indie developers to make up for a lack of time, money, and manpower are of course great tools.
A petition that urges Apple to cooperate with indie developers might accomplish something. A compromise is certainly possible here. Whether they're worried about the overall quality of apps or simply how well they run, there are standards that can be implemented here without a blanket rule that threatens many popular development tools, and creates precedence for banning any tools that rub Apple the wrong way in the future.
Let's seriously consider getting a good petition out, and getting signatures from every community that uses threatened tools, or tools that could conceivably be threatened in the future, as well as our player base! Is anyone out there, especially with experience in legal writing or petitions, who is interested in starting it off?
To be brutally honest...a petition is worthless. It will not impact their stance one i-ota. Those are something college kids do to piss off their parents. They matter nothing in corporate business and will not impact Apple one bit. We are all white noise to Apple.
I actually have to agree with synthesis on this one. History tells us that petitions fall on deaf ears 99% of the time. And with a company like Apple, if they have it in their minds to ban it, they will.
They have enough die hard fans that will follow them off whatever bridge they jump off. They can basically do whatever they want & get away with it.
I agree. A petition is useless. How about a Co-Op? i think its been mentioned before. We've got coders, designers, testers, logic solvers, ideas guys, good lookers. We could team up, and produce legit stuff? No idea how it would work of course. Distributing royalties would be a nightmare. ok scrap that, next idea?
>> I for one am not impressed by >> the “We’re clever” statement. >> Even less so to see it repeated. >> mrfunkleberry
While I admit that the clever comment did lose prestige with the second telling, it was as if I could see the thought process forming. To me, this is a non-issue. I don't see this as a crushing blow to Gendai Games, only a delay. If anything, the latest news is pretty amazing.
Gendai Games doesn't have to worry about support for AdMob or Open Feint. They can simply support Apple's new projects and have two awesome new ways for developers to generate money. If you're pessimistic, you're not seeing the possibilities.
I'm thinking... MMORPG... for the phones... one where I collect huge sums of money from players who love my games. Networking, In-App purchases... all the key ingredients are coming into play... the only thing that's missing is my content. I have to build the game. I have to make the adventures. So instead of crying that the sky is falling, I'm working on new games and new gadgets.
I've seen software development teams work before. While I may be wrong, I believe that the crew at Gendai Games will get through this mess. If anything, I think this makes Gendai Games stronger. From the way I understand things, they're in much better shape than Adobe. Now think about that... Apple just roughed up one of your biggest competitors. Clever indeed!
As far as a petition goes, even if there are 10,000 developer signatures saying that we want our Gamesalad/Unity3d/Torque/etc, that only represents a tiny part of the offerings in the app store... I wasn't trying to imply that a petition would solve this problem outright. What it would do is demonstrate that there's a significant number of people that aren't happy with the 4.0 changes. Whatever the policy at Apple is, a successful petition would almost definitely be considered and play into whatever decisions they end up making.
It's worth a try, I think...
But honestly, I'm hoping that this is language in the agreement will be used as a deterrent against tools that could potentially take a significant amount of control away from Apple. Even if GameSalad technically falls into the category, GameSalad games may still end up getting approved.
I agree that a petition would be fruitless. They always seem to come off as a bunch of online whiners.
If we all want to survive, I believe GameSalad needs to make these two changes on the surface:
1. Remove the splash screen for all memberships. Express users will be required to have a credits screen where the GameSalad logo is used, and a live link to www.gamesalad.com (the only link that will work on Express memberships).
2. Reduce the initial loading time for whatever splash screen is displayed. Speed up, shift subroutines, sacrifice every effort to offload the time the game needs to start up, and implement a progress bar. We cannot give Apple or our users any reason to be upset, or question, ridicule, or criticize the engine or the technology.
I'm learning XCode now and Cocos2D. I always liked the idea of using some of the more advanced features that direct C/C++/Obj-C linking provides. (Like tying into neural network libs, liquid physics libs, networking, etc)
But right now, I feel like a total newb w/ XCode. Manual memory management has my head reeling back to the old days of C++ programming in college (most of my real life experience has been in Java or C# or JavaScript)
Most of my programming experience comes from growing up on the win32 platform doing business apps (medical) but my passion has always been to make games. Unfortunately I grew up in Florida which is about as far away from California as you can get so I haven't been able to network with like minded people.
That said, I think the idea of collaboration is a great idea!
I think a tool like GS is fantastic though because it lets you RAD your games really quick and see if they are fun. (it needs a debugger though imo)
We'll see how this plays out. I'm currently working on some interesting AI stuff with GS, but if it doesn't work out with the new license terms I'm going to switch to XCode. I'd love to collaborate on stuff. I can't draw well ... well that's not true, I can draw abstract really well. I can't draw things at all.
I do hope this whole license thing blows over though. I like GS's ease of use. It lets me put ideas down FAST!
My other 2 programmers were pure windows C++ and C# guys. They picked up XCode in about 3 months. It helps to have a project to work on to burn through it. Plus they would be great resource for you to ask questions. See what you think.
Here is a direct quote from my primary contact from within Apple's WorldWide Developer Relations.
"With Apple's new iDP agreement please track GameSalad's website as I suspect apps created by that tools might have problem. But I am not sure at the moment."
I will keep everyone posted as I get more insight from the inside.
Ouch!!! That doesn't sound very positive scoreless. Hopefully Adent42 (GS CEO) is golfing buddies with Steve Jobs' executive assistant...and GS gets a "pass".
ey-yi-yi. This ride is making be dizzy. Someone make it stop!
Comments
It seems like it would be a simple matter for Adobe to just release CS5 with Obj-C export functionality that turns your flash .swf into an xcode project, then call xcode in the background to do the actual compilation and sidestep the whole issue, but that's a different topic. Correct me if i'm wrong GameSalad devs but I think this is exactly how GameSalad server operates, correct? However, to contradict myself for a moment: If Apple wanted to limit the build tools to just xcode then why not just put into the license agreement that you have to use a Mac and you have to compile using xcode. There, problem solved.
I think GameSalad is fine so long as whatever magic is happening on the GameSalad server is running through an instance of xcode's compiler.
I feel better now
I also think we all need to step up our game if we're going to release games to the App Store. Make a game that you'll want to pay for if you saw it there.
I was going to open up another thread about this, but there's been some GameSalad bashing on some forums and comment posts. From the sounds of it, they might be justified in some respects - some of the GS apps that are put out there on the App Store are hardly worthy of a free download. I understand it's a free market and we all have a "right" to put our work out there, but you have to remember that the GameSalad logo is the first thing they see (and quite the longest) and it will be embedded in their brains when it turns out they wasted $0.99-$x.99 for a game.
However, this tool is designed for people who cannot code. I feel as though I probably could create games on other platforms if I was put into a situation where GS is no longer available, but others aren't that fortunate.
All somewhat tipsy/irrelevant rambling aside, I think we should all hold ourselves to that standard. We all know if we create an app we wouldn't want to buy. Let's create ones we would.
when the OS 4 released?
Doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Worries me a bit actually...
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
This is a key issue for Apple to try and maintain the "King of the Mountain" position they have in app library dominance...at least for as long as possible. They want XCode to be the forced parameter to control the app market. If they squash the little guy in the process...I guess they consider that an acceptable trade-off.
Still hard to tell...but yes Eastbound...its a roller coaster of a ride.
But Appcelerator has the "Push to Android" button in place and GS does not. Only time will tell who gets bumped and who doesn't. Either way, it doesn't look good for Adobe next week. Ouch!
Now if only the GS CEO would be as "visual" and "open" as the Appcelerator CEO. I guess that the difference between "open-source" and "proprietary" software. No secrets so much in open software.
You're right, it's all based on how GS is structured, and we don't have Android publishing...
If GS has any info or updates to ease our minds, it would be great!
It's still iffy, but my instincts tell me that this whole thing is aimed at stopping alternative Application UI frameworks from getting onto the iPhone. I hope Apple doesn't consider game middleware to be in the same category as application toolkits.
Of course, then you fall into a gray area with simulations. Like for example, what would you classify a physics homework tutor that lets you simulate physics equations with graphics and animation. Is that game or application? I think that it would be dependent on the category you upload your game into in AppStore.
But bottom line. It's still not clear and GS needs to get some official word from Apple on whether or not their tool will be allowed. Then they need to tell us word for word what Apple said.
Oh, and everyone that loves GS should get a free iPad
Like so many creators I feel somewhat worried, threatened, ill-treated and worst of all completely impotent.
Apple
They’re trying to protect their platform, and why not. They made something that’s better than their competitors that people want to use. It’s been a huge success. Why threaten that by allowing others (big or small) come along and muck it up? We can all debate as whether they are being over reactionary, but there’s only one opinion that counts, and if Adobe/GS/Unity disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn’t hurt them one little bit. “We we’re a success without you, and guess what? We’ll keep being a success without you”.
Adobe
Ever since they got their grubby little hands on flash from macromedia, they’ve poured an immense amount of money into making a complete balls up of it. Okay this is not about that, but they’ve got a bit of an idea, and a huge amount of money to justify…
Apple vs Adobe
Is Apple vs the rest of us as well.
As Apple counter moves to block Adobe’s attempts to provide a development platform, you can be sure that it will (if not already) threaten GS/Unity. Example. If CS5 is a no no, then Adobe will produce a Unity style implementation. If that gets blocked, then they might look at GS with similar results.
Game Salad
Clever people also need luck, money, lawyers, support, and a feasible product.
Luck : For GS to survive the Apple vs Adobe war with a tenable position.
Money : To develop a product that people have stopped buying because they don’t know if it works.
Lawyers : Because we all owe them a living.
Support : From games creators and Apple.
A feasible product : If Apple say no, then there’s nothing much GS can do about it.
I for one am not impressed by the “We’re clever” statement. Even less so to see it repeated. Sorry. I love GS, but some of us are reasonably clever too and we’re still worried.
Moving forward
I have stopped developing two very large GS projects, I don’t really have any choice. Now whilst this doesn’t necessarily free up any time, it would be great to hear some ideas to help our cause. A plea / petition to Apple? How can we use this great GS community? Can we decide if we’d be happy with a Apple or nothing approach? Or should be pushing for Android / Wii / DS / etc publishing?
If for what ever reason Apple bans the Amateur / Pro-Am / Independent game creator (those of us that don’t know obj-C at any case) from producing Apple games then that will be a real shame for everyone. But !@#$% ‘em if they do, you’re just too important to give up. It’s not code that makes great games, but ideas.
One last point
Ignore the stupid ‘shovel-ware threatening the platform’ comments. The market ensures and demands there’s a place for everyone. The industry is dependant on it. The gaming industry would simply die without new, cross pollinating, creative, independents.
A petition that urges Apple to cooperate with indie developers might accomplish something. A compromise is certainly possible here. Whether they're worried about the overall quality of apps or simply how well they run, there are standards that can be implemented here without a blanket rule that threatens many popular development tools, and creates precedence for banning any tools that rub Apple the wrong way in the future.
Let's seriously consider getting a good petition out, and getting signatures from every community that uses threatened tools, or tools that could conceivably be threatened in the future, as well as our player base! Is anyone out there, especially with experience in legal writing or petitions, who is interested in starting it off?
Those are something college kids do to piss off their parents. They matter nothing in corporate business and will not impact Apple one bit. We are all white noise to Apple.
They have enough die hard fans that will follow them off whatever bridge they jump off. They can basically do whatever they want & get away with it.
If so...we have 3 other programmers that do and can always use another
Have some great concepts and lots of good graphics to go with it!
Just need more talent like you to team up with.
>> I for one am not impressed by
>> the “We’re clever” statement.
>> Even less so to see it repeated.
>> mrfunkleberry
While I admit that the clever comment did lose prestige with the second telling, it was as if I could see the thought process forming. To me, this is a non-issue. I don't see this as a crushing blow to Gendai Games, only a delay. If anything, the latest news is pretty amazing.
Gendai Games doesn't have to worry about support for AdMob or Open Feint. They can simply support Apple's new projects and have two awesome new ways for developers to generate money. If you're pessimistic, you're not seeing the possibilities.
I'm thinking... MMORPG... for the phones... one where I collect huge sums of money from players who love my games. Networking, In-App purchases... all the key ingredients are coming into play... the only thing that's missing is my content. I have to build the game. I have to make the adventures. So instead of crying that the sky is falling, I'm working on new games and new gadgets.
I've seen software development teams work before. While I may be wrong, I believe that the crew at Gendai Games will get through this mess. If anything, I think this makes Gendai Games stronger. From the way I understand things, they're in much better shape than Adobe. Now think about that... Apple just roughed up one of your biggest competitors. Clever indeed!
Anyway, I'm going back to work!
It's worth a try, I think...
But honestly, I'm hoping that this is language in the agreement will be used as a deterrent against tools that could potentially take a significant amount of control away from Apple. Even if GameSalad technically falls into the category, GameSalad games may still end up getting approved.
I'm with you, bro'. Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes...
QS
Dr. Sam Beckett never returned home...
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Quantum_Sheep
Web: https://quantumsheep.itch.io
If we all want to survive, I believe GameSalad needs to make these two changes on the surface:
1. Remove the splash screen for all memberships. Express users will be required to have a credits screen where the GameSalad logo is used, and a live link to www.gamesalad.com (the only link that will work on Express memberships).
2. Reduce the initial loading time for whatever splash screen is displayed. Speed up, shift subroutines, sacrifice every effort to offload the time the game needs to start up, and implement a progress bar. We cannot give Apple or our users any reason to be upset, or question, ridicule, or criticize the engine or the technology.
I'm learning XCode now and Cocos2D. I always liked the idea of using some of the more advanced features that direct C/C++/Obj-C linking provides. (Like tying into neural network libs, liquid physics libs, networking, etc)
But right now, I feel like a total newb w/ XCode. Manual memory management has my head reeling back to the old days of C++ programming in college (most of my real life experience has been in Java or C# or JavaScript)
Most of my programming experience comes from growing up on the win32 platform doing business apps (medical) but my passion has always been to make games. Unfortunately I grew up in Florida which is about as far away from California as you can get so I haven't been able to network with like minded people.
That said, I think the idea of collaboration is a great idea!
I think a tool like GS is fantastic though because it lets you RAD your games really quick and see if they are fun. (it needs a debugger though imo)
We'll see how this plays out. I'm currently working on some interesting AI stuff with GS, but if it doesn't work out with the new license terms I'm going to switch to XCode. I'd love to collaborate on stuff. I can't draw well
I do hope this whole license thing blows over though. I like GS's ease of use. It lets me put ideas down FAST!
and in conclusion: !@#$% lawyers
oh and ps, I really like BT's idea above about removing the splash screen and having a mandatory link to GS in the credits.
you can PM me at www.gsProForum.com
My other 2 programmers were pure windows C++ and C# guys. They picked up XCode in about 3 months. It helps to have a project to work on to burn through it. Plus they would be great resource for you to ask questions. See what you think.
Give me a buzz on the pro forum.
"With Apple's new iDP agreement please track GameSalad's website as I suspect apps created by that tools might have problem. But I am not sure at the moment."
I will keep everyone posted as I get more insight from the inside.
Hopefully Adent42 (GS CEO) is golfing buddies with Steve Jobs' executive assistant...and GS gets a "pass".
ey-yi-yi.
This ride is making be dizzy. Someone make it stop!